Consciousness*



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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "Laurent"
Date: 08 Jan 2008 08:29:03 AM
Object: Consciousness*
Consciousness
Could there be consciousness where there is no space, no time and
therefore, no motion?
Human consciousness evolved from the same holistic awareness property
which all matter has shown to possess. The evidence suggests that the
objective universe was here before human observers and that state wave
collapse is an old function of matter which through a self-reference
mechanism inherent to self-animated matter evolved to what our
consciousness is today, it is not a new function in Nature.
We are constantly choosing the present out of an infinitude of
possibilities, possible through a mechanism of quantum wave
superposition. Thoughts are formed very much in the same manner
particles are, and just like particle systems depend on matter waves
and wholeness in space and time, so does our mind. Processes forming
ideas are very much like the processes that form matter. Mind and
matter both depend on phenomena like wave superposition, non-locality
and parallel information processing, which gives matter the
possibility and the ability to self-organize into ever more energy
efficient systems.
During its existence, a particle retains more information about the
past (a history) than it has about the future, creating an information
potential (a pressure with a direction) thus the emergence of a
'quantum potential', from this potential we can partly derive its
future. (Yakir Aharonov's teleological state vector - which he derived
from David Bohm's equations.)
Even though it seems at first sight that we are describing a duality
(mind and matter as separate entities), in Bohm's view, and as the
Copenhagen Interpretation suggests, the real exists as the underlying
ground of both, taking us back to a monism.
I think that what Hiley and Bohm are saying is that, below the Planck
scale, dimension is considered an abstraction. At this level causality
and determinism are not the rule anymore. The notions of motion and
time take a different meaning.
Consciousness is spacetime dependent, just like matter. No brain, no
consciousness. First there had to be matter before there could be any
brains, and matter is spacetime dependent. Brains emerged from the
evolution of information that existed in spacetime. Thus,
consciousness appears with the emergence of matter, not before. There
can't be evolution outside of spacetime. Spacetime is where experience
takes place.
Now, after billions of years, this information exchange between matter
and the environment in which it evolves has produced ever more complex
self-organized systems. Human beings for example, have evolved to take
full advantage of this holistic awareness function of Nature, which is
what enables us to think outside the grip of time, allowing us to
remember the past and imagine the future. Thought can be conceived as
part of the same holistic awareness function with which matter started
organizing itself 14 billion of years ago.
The difference between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom is
self awareness, not even monkeys can recognize their faces on a
mirror. Animals, with the exception of human beings, are bound by
time, they exist frame by frame and react accordingly. Humans, on the
other hand, have the ability to go back and forth in time, we call it
imagination, foresight or insight and that is what gives us a better
sense of wholeness in space and time... which is what human
consciousness is all about.
What role does light (EMR) plays in determining Schroedinger's cat
state (dead or alive)? Is it light itself the only important factor
closing the loop, or, is it the observer's conscious acknowledgment
which causes the final determination of the cat's fate? Photons bring
us the past. Information from the past is locked into photons. We can
even look at what the universe was billions of years ago. Our capacity
to see is closely related to consciousness and consciousness is
closely related to light (or to the information it carries).
In other words, is the wave packet collapse a function defined by the
structures of matter, a result from the interactions and relationships
of its parts, independent from human observers, or, is objective
reduction a function of mind? The answer is 'yes' to both questions,
there is no contradiction, self-observation is a function intrinsic to
all self-organized systems.
Perception is key to the crystallization of 3D reality. Every particle
and object is accompanied by a wave that in-forms it about its shape
and environment. The particle exists in 3D only during actuality, at
the 'now' moment. EMR feeds molecules with information about the
environment (information that represents the molecule's past as it
exists in a rock-like 3D actuality). Solidity and volume manifest only
at present or actuality in a spacetime continuum, there is no material
past nor future.
Human consciousness is the ultimate product of a natural, energy
balancing mechanism, determined and regulated by the laws of
Thermodynamics. Because energy is finite, each object's energetic
requirements has to be measured before entering any given spacetime
metric, before going from its subtle quantum matter state, or wave
state, to its objective material state, or particle state. These
information requirements are met through wave interactions, and the
mechanisms governing wave superposition as described by the science of
Quantum Mechanics. Timothy Boyer termed this energy balancing
radiation 'equilibrium spectrum', others call it Unruh-Davies
radiation.
Consciousness comes from the same holistic awareness function found in
all matter. State vector reduction occurs thanks to this wholeness in
space function of matter, and human consciousness is possible thanks
to wholeness in time. It was from analyzing this holistic awareness
function of Nature that Bohm conceived his quantum potential (Q)
concept.
Holistic awareness, or self-reference, emerges from an inward
necessity which is satisfied as information is chosen from the context
in which a system may be evolving, and that's why experience/
perception is fundamental in the development of all matter, and
especially in sentient matter, because we need it in order to be able
to choose. This is why Nature (self-organized matter) transformed into
brains with eyes, from its need to observe itself. How could matter
get organized if it couldn't observe itself? Matter, in order to
evolve, had to communicate in any way naturally possible (i.e.,
surface vibrations, air vibrations, and EM radiation). Biological
organisms evolved to use light to their benefit very slowly. As we
already know, it took Nature billions of years (pre-Cambrian to
Cambrian) just to develop eyesight.
Brains are these little bio-mechanical tools that emerged with
evolution for the only purpose of enabling us to interpret and
interface with reality. In order to become more thermally efficient,
the universe needed to improve its ability to observe and perceive the
environment, so matter evolved into brains that could take advantage
of the properties of spacetime. Brains exist because there is
spacetime, not the other way around.
Nature would still be able to exist and observe itself without the
human observer... it would just be a more primitive process. Our
brains, then, are seen as Nature's best developed self-reference tool
on this part of the universe. Human consciousness is an extension of
the same holistic awareness function self-organized matter always
utilized to observe itself, therefore, in a very real way,
consciousness still is - Nature observing itself.
Experience is fundamental to existence, but it is not reality,
Berkeley was wrong. Reality is the process through which Nature is
constantly becoming. As Roger Penrose explained quasicrystal
development in 'The Emperor's New Mind', he writes (p. 564) that it
appears as if the whole crystal is 'observing' itself, registering all
atom configuration patterns embedded into their pilot-wave, using a
self- reference mechanism limited by the system's tendencies or
potentialities, by which their present state is compared to past
states and all the possible rock-like outcomes, all at once, until the
right atom configurations are found, while constructing their
"randomly forbidden, very complex icosahedral symmetries".
Experience plays an important role in the correct development of the
crystals, as well as in all self-organized systems. The crystals are
able to carry out their self-observation by following information
contained in their pilot-wave (Bohm-de Broglie) which contains past
and even future information about the crystal as a whole. Proto-qualia
for a quasicrystal would be how all the possible atom configurations
would 'feel like', as they remain in superposition, until the right
one is found, then and only then could the collapse of the wave packet
finally occur.
From the moment the first self-organizing systems appeared in Nature
to the moment the first human brain appeared it's been a few billion
years, but in both occasions the objective has been the same; to
experience existence. Penrose's quasicrystals don't have a brain, but
they follow their morphic state waves as the measure by which they
must exist, and if by any reason they were to stop following it as
they add new atoms to their body, they would end up becoming a totally
different type of material. The objective state wave a human being
follows... or the measure by which a human being exists... is also
defined by its brain wave-function. That's where the brain-body
connection comes from. Mindfulness brings a general well being.
Tao, the way of Nature, is also the way of the human mind.
--
Laurent
.

User: "brian fletcher"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 08 Jan 2008 05:43:45 PM
"Laurent" <cyberdyno@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:17e4b847-caf0-4d5b-bb33-dff6711dd8bb@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...


Consciousness


Could there be consciousness where there is no space, no time and
therefore, no motion?

Snip..
See why the 'masters' teach deep contemplation,with no movement and
timelessness.
Discovering of human "being" is the discovery of consciousness.
Life =Life....Self =Self...Consciousness=Consciousness.
One cannot discover this reality by discection of 'aspects' of all three,
but a great mental activity nevertheless.
One has to know "what it isnt" first, but in the process also has to
acknowledge the reality of "know".
BOfL
.

User: "thinker"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 08 Jan 2008 10:53:39 AM
"Laurent" <cyberdyno@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:17e4b847-caf0-4d5b-bb33-dff6711dd8bb@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...


Consciousness


Could there be consciousness where there is no space, no time and
therefore, no motion?

Human consciousness evolved from the same holistic awareness property
which all matter has shown to possess.

<snip>
I can't beyond this line. Where has it been shown that matter possesses an
"awareness property"?
.
User: "brian fletcher"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 08 Jan 2008 05:46:17 PM
"thinker" <notrealaddress@unreal.edu> wrote in message
news:nUNgj.4926$O97.915@trndny01...


"Laurent" <cyberdyno@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:17e4b847-caf0-4d5b-bb33-dff6711dd8bb@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...


Consciousness


Could there be consciousness where there is no space, no time and
therefore, no motion?

Human consciousness evolved from the same holistic awareness property
which all matter has shown to possess.

<snip>

I can't beyond this line. Where has it been shown that matter possesses
an "awareness property"?

Never can and never`will...now lets talk of the observerhe 'unit' of
awareness!
BOfL


.


User: "Miller"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 10 Jan 2008 03:50:21 PM
"Laurent" <cyberdyno@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:17e4b847-caf0-4d5b-bb33-dff6711dd8bb@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...


Consciousness


Could there be consciousness where there is no space, no time and
therefore, no motion?

Human consciousness evolved from the same holistic awareness property
which all matter has shown to possess. The evidence suggests that the
objective universe was here before human observers and that state wave
collapse is an old function of matter which through a self-reference
mechanism inherent to self-animated matter evolved to what our
consciousness is today, it is not a new function in Nature.

We are constantly choosing the present out of an infinitude of
possibilities, possible through a mechanism of quantum wave
superposition. Thoughts are formed very much in the same manner
particles are, and just like particle systems depend on matter waves
and wholeness in space and time, so does our mind. Processes forming
ideas are very much like the processes that form matter. Mind and
matter both depend on phenomena like wave superposition, non-locality
and parallel information processing, which gives matter the
possibility and the ability to self-organize into ever more energy
efficient systems.

During its existence, a particle retains more information about the
past (a history) than it has about the future, creating an information
potential (a pressure with a direction) thus the emergence of a
'quantum potential', from this potential we can partly derive its
future. (Yakir Aharonov's teleological state vector - which he derived
from David Bohm's equations.)

Even though it seems at first sight that we are describing a duality
(mind and matter as separate entities), in Bohm's view, and as the
Copenhagen Interpretation suggests, the real exists as the underlying
ground of both, taking us back to a monism.

I think that what Hiley and Bohm are saying is that, below the Planck
scale, dimension is considered an abstraction. At this level causality
and determinism are not the rule anymore. The notions of motion and
time take a different meaning.

Consciousness is spacetime dependent, just like matter. No brain, no
consciousness. First there had to be matter before there could be any
brains, and matter is spacetime dependent. Brains emerged from the
evolution of information that existed in spacetime. Thus,
consciousness appears with the emergence of matter, not before. There
can't be evolution outside of spacetime. Spacetime is where experience
takes place.

Now, after billions of years, this information exchange between matter
and the environment in which it evolves has produced ever more complex
self-organized systems. Human beings for example, have evolved to take
full advantage of this holistic awareness function of Nature, which is
what enables us to think outside the grip of time, allowing us to
remember the past and imagine the future. Thought can be conceived as
part of the same holistic awareness function with which matter started
organizing itself 14 billion of years ago.

The difference between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom is
self awareness, not even monkeys can recognize their faces on a
mirror. Animals, with the exception of human beings, are bound by
time, they exist frame by frame and react accordingly. Humans, on the
other hand, have the ability to go back and forth in time, we call it
imagination, foresight or insight and that is what gives us a better
sense of wholeness in space and time... which is what human
consciousness is all about.

What role does light (EMR) plays in determining Schroedinger's cat
state (dead or alive)? Is it light itself the only important factor
closing the loop, or, is it the observer's conscious acknowledgment
which causes the final determination of the cat's fate? Photons bring
us the past. Information from the past is locked into photons. We can
even look at what the universe was billions of years ago. Our capacity
to see is closely related to consciousness and consciousness is
closely related to light (or to the information it carries).

In other words, is the wave packet collapse a function defined by the
structures of matter, a result from the interactions and relationships
of its parts, independent from human observers, or, is objective
reduction a function of mind? The answer is 'yes' to both questions,
there is no contradiction, self-observation is a function intrinsic to
all self-organized systems.

Perception is key to the crystallization of 3D reality. Every particle
and object is accompanied by a wave that in-forms it about its shape
and environment. The particle exists in 3D only during actuality, at
the 'now' moment. EMR feeds molecules with information about the
environment (information that represents the molecule's past as it
exists in a rock-like 3D actuality). Solidity and volume manifest only
at present or actuality in a spacetime continuum, there is no material
past nor future.

Human consciousness is the ultimate product of a natural, energy
balancing mechanism, determined and regulated by the laws of
Thermodynamics. Because energy is finite, each object's energetic
requirements has to be measured before entering any given spacetime
metric, before going from its subtle quantum matter state, or wave
state, to its objective material state, or particle state. These
information requirements are met through wave interactions, and the
mechanisms governing wave superposition as described by the science of
Quantum Mechanics. Timothy Boyer termed this energy balancing
radiation 'equilibrium spectrum', others call it Unruh-Davies
radiation.

Consciousness comes from the same holistic awareness function found in
all matter. State vector reduction occurs thanks to this wholeness in
space function of matter, and human consciousness is possible thanks
to wholeness in time. It was from analyzing this holistic awareness
function of Nature that Bohm conceived his quantum potential (Q)
concept.

Holistic awareness, or self-reference, emerges from an inward
necessity which is satisfied as information is chosen from the context
in which a system may be evolving, and that's why experience/
perception is fundamental in the development of all matter, and
especially in sentient matter, because we need it in order to be able
to choose. This is why Nature (self-organized matter) transformed into
brains with eyes, from its need to observe itself. How could matter
get organized if it couldn't observe itself? Matter, in order to
evolve, had to communicate in any way naturally possible (i.e.,
surface vibrations, air vibrations, and EM radiation). Biological
organisms evolved to use light to their benefit very slowly. As we
already know, it took Nature billions of years (pre-Cambrian to
Cambrian) just to develop eyesight.

Brains are these little bio-mechanical tools that emerged with
evolution for the only purpose of enabling us to interpret and
interface with reality. In order to become more thermally efficient,
the universe needed to improve its ability to observe and perceive the
environment, so matter evolved into brains that could take advantage
of the properties of spacetime. Brains exist because there is
spacetime, not the other way around.

Nature would still be able to exist and observe itself without the
human observer... it would just be a more primitive process. Our
brains, then, are seen as Nature's best developed self-reference tool
on this part of the universe. Human consciousness is an extension of
the same holistic awareness function self-organized matter always
utilized to observe itself, therefore, in a very real way,
consciousness still is - Nature observing itself.

Experience is fundamental to existence, but it is not reality,
Berkeley was wrong. Reality is the process through which Nature is
constantly becoming. As Roger Penrose explained quasicrystal
development in 'The Emperor's New Mind', he writes (p. 564) that it
appears as if the whole crystal is 'observing' itself, registering all
atom configuration patterns embedded into their pilot-wave, using a
self- reference mechanism limited by the system's tendencies or
potentialities, by which their present state is compared to past
states and all the possible rock-like outcomes, all at once, until the
right atom configurations are found, while constructing their
"randomly forbidden, very complex icosahedral symmetries".

Experience plays an important role in the correct development of the
crystals, as well as in all self-organized systems. The crystals are
able to carry out their self-observation by following information
contained in their pilot-wave (Bohm-de Broglie) which contains past
and even future information about the crystal as a whole. Proto-qualia
for a quasicrystal would be how all the possible atom configurations
would 'feel like', as they remain in superposition, until the right
one is found, then and only then could the collapse of the wave packet
finally occur.

From the moment the first self-organizing systems appeared in Nature
to the moment the first human brain appeared it's been a few billion
years, but in both occasions the objective has been the same; to
experience existence. Penrose's quasicrystals don't have a brain, but
they follow their morphic state waves as the measure by which they
must exist, and if by any reason they were to stop following it as
they add new atoms to their body, they would end up becoming a totally
different type of material. The objective state wave a human being
follows... or the measure by which a human being exists... is also
defined by its brain wave-function. That's where the brain-body
connection comes from. Mindfulness brings a general well being.

Tao, the way of Nature, is also the way of the human mind.

--
Laurent

I would say that consiousness is a state of being, and visa versa. No
space, no time, no consciousness. Consciousness is not an essence waiting
to be aware of something. Consiousness is awareness. The awareness is the
essence.
Scott
.

User: "Uncle Al"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 08 Jan 2008 01:21:18 PM
Laurent wrote:


Consciousness

Could there be consciousness where there is no space, no time and
therefore, no motion?

[snip crap]
Check out the nearest mirror, specifically posterior to your forehead
and saggital to your ears.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
.
User: "brian fletcher"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 08 Jan 2008 05:51:23 PM
"Uncle Al" <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
news:4783CD2E.C224841D@hate.spam.net...

Laurent wrote:


Consciousness

Could there be consciousness where there is no space, no time and
therefore, no motion?

[snip crap]

Check out the nearest mirror, specifically posterior to your forehead
and saggital to your ears.

At least you will be no longer in need of a chiropracter :-)
BOfL


--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2

.


User: "Michael Gordge"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 08 Jan 2008 03:37:35 PM
On Jan 8, 11:29=A0pm, Laurent <cyberd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Consciousness

Could there be consciousness where there is no space, no time and
therefore, no motion?

You'd have to define what YOU mean by consciousness space time motion
before that could be answered.
MG
.

User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 08 Jan 2008 10:24:51 PM
On Jan 8, 6:29 am, Laurent <cyberd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Consciousness

Could there be consciousness where there is no space, no time and
therefore, no motion?

Human consciousness evolved from the same holistic awareness property
which all matter has shown to possess. ...

....The guiding idea of its approach is that natural existence consists
in and is best understood in terms of processes rather than things --
of modes of change rather than fixed stabilities. For processists,
change of every sort -- physical, organic, psychological -- is the
pervasive and predominant feature of the real.
Process philosophy diametrically opposes the view -- as old as
Parmenides and Zeno and the Atomists of Pre-Socratic Greece -- that
denies processes or downgrades them in the order of being or of
understanding by subordinating them to substantial things. By
contrast, process philosophy pivots on the thesis that the processual
nature of existence is a fundamental fact with which any adequate
metaphysic must come to terms.
Process philosophy puts processes at the forefront of philosophical
and specifically of ontological concern. Process should here be
construed in pretty much the usual way -- as a sequentially structured
sequence of successive stages or phases...
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/process-philosophy/
Process philosophy is a longstanding philosophical tradition that
emphasizes becoming and changing over static being...
....the world, at its most fundamental level, is made up of momentary
events of experience rather than enduring material substances. Process
philosophy speculates that these momentary events, called "actual
occasions" or "actual entities," are essentially self-determining,
experiential, and internally related to each other.
Actual occasions correspond to electrons and sub-atomic particles, but
also to human persons. The human person is a society of billions of
these occasions (that is, the body), which is organized and
coordinated by a single dominant occasion (that is, the mind). Thus,
process philosophy avoids a strict mind-body dualism....
http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/processp.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_philosophy
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spacetime-bebecome/
.
User: "Laurent"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 09 Jan 2008 10:51:48 AM
On Jan 8, 11:24 pm, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Jan 8, 6:29 am, Laurent <cyberd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Consciousness


Could there be consciousness where there is no space, no time and
therefore, no motion?


Human consciousness evolved from the same holistic awareness property
which all matter has shown to possess. ...


...The guiding idea of its approach is that natural existence consists
in and is best understood in terms of processes rather than things --
of modes of change rather than fixed stabilities. For processists,
change of every sort -- physical, organic, psychological -- is the
pervasive and predominant feature of the real.

Process philosophy diametrically opposes the view -- as old as
Parmenides and Zeno and the Atomists of Pre-Socratic Greece -- that
denies processes or downgrades them in the order of being or of
understanding by subordinating them to substantial things. By
contrast, process philosophy pivots on the thesis that the processual
nature of existence is a fundamental fact with which any adequate
metaphysic must come to terms.

Process philosophy puts processes at the forefront of philosophical
and specifically of ontological concern. Process should here be
construed in pretty much the usual way -- as a sequentially structured
sequence of successive stages or phases...

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/process-philosophy/

Process philosophy is a longstanding philosophical tradition that
emphasizes becoming and changing over static being...

...the world, at its most fundamental level, is made up of momentary
events of experience rather than enduring material substances. Process
philosophy speculates that these momentary events, called "actual
occasions" or "actual entities," are essentially self-determining,
experiential, and internally related to each other.

Actual occasions correspond to electrons and sub-atomic particles, but
also to human persons. The human person is a society of billions of
these occasions (that is, the body), which is organized and
coordinated by a single dominant occasion (that is, the mind). Thus,
process philosophy avoids a strict mind-body dualism....

http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/processp.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_philosophyhttp://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spacetime-bebecome/

Beautiful!
--
Laurent
.
User: "Ace0f_5pades"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 09 Jan 2008 02:36:33 PM
On Jan 10, 5:51=A0am, Laurent <cyberd...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jan 8, 11:24 pm, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:





On Jan 8, 6:29 am, Laurent <cyberd...@gmail.com> wrote:


Consciousness


Could there be consciousness where there is no space, no time and
therefore, no motion?


Human consciousness evolved from the same holistic awareness property
which all matter has shown to possess. ...


...The guiding idea of its approach is that natural existence consists
in and is best understood in terms of processes rather than things --
of modes of change rather than fixed stabilities. For processists,
change of every sort -- physical, organic, psychological -- is the
pervasive and predominant feature of the real.


Process philosophy diametrically opposes the view -- as old as
Parmenides and Zeno and the Atomists of Pre-Socratic Greece -- that
denies processes or downgrades them in the order of being or of
understanding by subordinating them to substantial things. By
contrast, process philosophy pivots on the thesis that the processual
nature of existence is a fundamental fact with which any adequate
metaphysic must come to terms.


Process philosophy puts processes at the forefront of philosophical
and specifically of ontological concern. Process should here be
construed in pretty much the usual way -- as a sequentially structured
sequence of successive stages or phases...


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/process-philosophy/


Process philosophy is a longstanding philosophical tradition that
emphasizes becoming and changing over static being...


...the world, at its most fundamental level, is made up of momentary
events of experience rather than enduring material substances. Process
philosophy speculates that these momentary events, called "actual
occasions" or "actual entities," are essentially self-determining,
experiential, and internally related to each other.


Actual occasions correspond to electrons and sub-atomic particles, but
also to human persons. The human person is a society of billions of
these occasions (that is, the body), which is organized and
coordinated by a single dominant occasion (that is, the mind). Thus,
process philosophy avoids a strict mind-body dualism....


http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/processp.htm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_philosophyhttp://plato.stanford....


Beautiful!

--
Laurent- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ok Darren, I was tossing up between a deliberate mislead (only because
of the subjective content and wording of the opening), or seeking to
understand, just like me.
If you want, I can bottom line it for you, just ask... or anyone for
that matter.
I posted HLT hunia's little theorem in MSN math group for that
purpose, but I've thought of a much simpler method.
I would really like to see someone else bottom line it, it would be a
good challenge!
.
User: "Ace0f_5pades"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 09 Jan 2008 02:40:00 PM
On Jan 10, 9:36=A0am, Ace0f_5pades <m4de...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Jan 10, 5:51=A0am, Laurent <cyberd...@gmail.com> wrote:





On Jan 8, 11:24 pm, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:


On Jan 8, 6:29 am, Laurent <cyberd...@gmail.com> wrote:


Consciousness


Could there be consciousness where there is no space, no time and
therefore, no motion?


Human consciousness evolved from the same holistic awareness propert=

y

which all matter has shown to possess. ...


...The guiding idea of its approach is that natural existence consists=
in and is best understood in terms of processes rather than things --
of modes of change rather than fixed stabilities. For processists,
change of every sort -- physical, organic, psychological -- is the
pervasive and predominant feature of the real.


Process philosophy diametrically opposes the view -- as old as
Parmenides and Zeno and the Atomists of Pre-Socratic Greece -- that
denies processes or downgrades them in the order of being or of
understanding by subordinating them to substantial things. By
contrast, process philosophy pivots on the thesis that the processual
nature of existence is a fundamental fact with which any adequate
metaphysic must come to terms.


Process philosophy puts processes at the forefront of philosophical
and specifically of ontological concern. Process should here be
construed in pretty much the usual way -- as a sequentially structured=
sequence of successive stages or phases...


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/process-philosophy/


Process philosophy is a longstanding philosophical tradition that
emphasizes becoming and changing over static being...


...the world, at its most fundamental level, is made up of momentary
events of experience rather than enduring material substances. Process=
philosophy speculates that these momentary events, called "actual
occasions" or "actual entities," are essentially self-determining,
experiential, and internally related to each other.


Actual occasions correspond to electrons and sub-atomic particles, but=
also to human persons. The human person is a society of billions of
these occasions (that is, the body), which is organized and
coordinated by a single dominant occasion (that is, the mind). Thus,
process philosophy avoids a strict mind-body dualism....


http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/processp.htm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_philosophyhttp://plato.stanford...=

..


Beautiful!


--
Laurent- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Ok Darren, I was tossing up between a deliberate mislead (only because
of the subjective content and wording of the opening), or seeking to
understand, just like me.

If you want, I can bottom line it for you, just ask... or anyone for
that matter.

I posted HLT hunia's little theorem in MSN math group for that
purpose, but I've thought of a much simpler method.

It doesn't require a knowledge of modular arithmatic, or the 1 to 1
correlation such that it would cause a whole new need a way to varify
such correlations because of how I intended to correlate it to
demonstrate the point.


I would really like to see someone else bottom line it, it would be a
good challenge!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

.
User: "Ace0f_5pades"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 09 Jan 2008 02:41:25 PM
On Jan 10, 9:40=A0am, Ace0f_5pades <m4de...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Jan 10, 9:36=A0am, Ace0f_5pades <m4de...@hotmail.com> wrote:



On Jan 10, 5:51=A0am, Laurent <cyberd...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Jan 8, 11:24 pm, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:


On Jan 8, 6:29 am, Laurent <cyberd...@gmail.com> wrote:


Consciousness


Could there be consciousness where there is no space, no time and
therefore, no motion?


Human consciousness evolved from the same holistic awareness prope=

rty

which all matter has shown to possess. ...


...The guiding idea of its approach is that natural existence consis=

ts

in and is best understood in terms of processes rather than things -=

-

of modes of change rather than fixed stabilities. For processists,
change of every sort -- physical, organic, psychological -- is the
pervasive and predominant feature of the real.


Process philosophy diametrically opposes the view -- as old as
Parmenides and Zeno and the Atomists of Pre-Socratic Greece -- that
denies processes or downgrades them in the order of being or of
understanding by subordinating them to substantial things. By
contrast, process philosophy pivots on the thesis that the processua=

l

nature of existence is a fundamental fact with which any adequate
metaphysic must come to terms.


Process philosophy puts processes at the forefront of philosophical
and specifically of ontological concern. Process should here be
construed in pretty much the usual way -- as a sequentially structur=

ed

sequence of successive stages or phases...


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/process-philosophy/


Process philosophy is a longstanding philosophical tradition that
emphasizes becoming and changing over static being...


...the world, at its most fundamental level, is made up of momentary=
events of experience rather than enduring material substances. Proce=

ss

philosophy speculates that these momentary events, called "actual
occasions" or "actual entities," are essentially self-determining,
experiential, and internally related to each other.


Actual occasions correspond to electrons and sub-atomic particles, b=

ut

also to human persons. The human person is a society of billions of
these occasions (that is, the body), which is organized and
coordinated by a single dominant occasion (that is, the mind). Thus,=
process philosophy avoids a strict mind-body dualism....


http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/processp.htm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_philosophyhttp://plato.stanford.=

....


Beautiful!


--
Laurent- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Ok Darren, I was tossing up between a deliberate mislead (only because
of the subjective content and wording of the opening), or seeking to
understand, just like me.


If you want, I can bottom line it for you, just ask... or anyone for
that matter.


I posted HLT hunia's little theorem in MSN math group for that
purpose, but I've thought of a much simpler method.


It doesn't require a knowledge of modular arithmatic, or the 1 to 1
correlation such that it would cause a whole new need a way to varify
such correlations because of how I intended to correlate it to
demonstrate the point.


rather easier to use natural language and inference




I would really like to see someone else bottom line it, it would be a
good challenge!- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

.





User: "tadchem"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 09 Jan 2008 03:05:17 PM
On Jan 8, 9:29 am, Laurent <cyberd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Consciousness

ERR: Noun undefined.
Please provide a definition to include criteria necessary and
sufficient to identify "consciousness" and to distinguish it from any
and all instances of that which is not "consciousness" which will
produce consistent results when the criteria are applied by any
interested investigator.
Do/can humans have consciousness?
Do/can animals have consciousness?
Do/can inanimate objects have consciousness?
Do/can non-objects have consciousness?
How can we test for "consciousness" to decide the answers to my
questions?
Without a common language, there can be no communication.
Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
.
User: "Laurent"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 12 Jan 2008 06:57:33 AM
On Jan 9, 4:05 pm, tadchem <tadc...@comcast.net> wrote:

On Jan 8, 9:29 am, Laurent <cyberd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Consciousness


ERR: Noun undefined.

Please provide a definition to include criteria necessary and
sufficient to identify "consciousness" and to distinguish it from any
and all instances of that which is not "consciousness" which will
produce consistent results when the criteria are applied by any
interested investigator.

Do/can humans have consciousness?

Do/can animals have consciousness?

Do/can inanimate objects have consciousness?

Do/can non-objects have consciousness?

How can we test for "consciousness" to decide the answers to my
questions?

Without a common language, there can be no communication.

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA

It's the ability for self-reflection.
Objects do have it, that's where Cramer's Transactional Interpretation
and Wheeler's Delayed-action come from.
Animals have it but not as developed as we do. We are not bound by
time, we can think out of time, it's called imagination.
--
Laurent
.


User: "kenseto"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 08 Jan 2008 09:08:37 AM
On Jan 8, 9:29=A0am, Laurent <cyberd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Consciousness

Could there be consciousness where there is no space, no time and
therefore, no motion?

Human consciousness evolved from the same holistic awareness property
which all matter has shown to possess. The evidence suggests that the
objective universe was here before human observers and that state wave
collapse is an old function of matter which through a self-reference
mechanism inherent to self-animated matter evolved to what our
consciousness is today, it is not a new function in Nature.

We are constantly choosing the present out of an infinitude of
possibilities, possible through a mechanism of quantum wave
superposition. Thoughts are formed very much in the same manner
particles are, and just like particle systems depend on matter waves
and wholeness in space and time, so does our mind. Processes forming
ideas are very much like the processes that form matter. Mind and
matter both depend on phenomena like wave superposition, non-locality
and parallel information processing, which gives matter the
possibility and the ability to self-organize into ever more energy
efficient systems.

During its existence, a particle retains more information about the
past (a history) than it has about the future, creating an information
potential (a pressure with a direction) thus the emergence of a
'quantum potential', from this potential we can partly derive its
future. (Yakir Aharonov's teleological state vector - which he derived
from David Bohm's equations.)

Even though it seems at first sight that we are describing a duality
(mind and matter as separate entities), in Bohm's view, and as the
Copenhagen Interpretation suggests, the real exists as the underlying
ground of both, taking us back to a monism.

I think that what Hiley and Bohm are saying is that, below the Planck
scale, dimension is considered an abstraction. At this level causality
and determinism are not the rule anymore. The notions of motion and
time take a different meaning.

Consciousness is spacetime dependent, just like matter. No brain, no
consciousness. First there had to be matter before there could be any
brains, and matter is spacetime dependent. Brains emerged from the
evolution of information that existed in spacetime. Thus,
consciousness appears with the emergence of matter, not before. There
can't be evolution outside of spacetime. Spacetime is where experience
takes place.

Now, after billions of years, this information exchange between matter
and the environment in which it evolves has produced ever more complex
self-organized systems. Human beings for example, have evolved to take
full advantage of this holistic awareness function of Nature, which is
what enables us to think outside the grip of time, allowing us to
remember the past and imagine the future. Thought can be conceived as
part of the same holistic awareness function with which matter started
organizing itself 14 billion of years ago.

The difference between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom is
self awareness, not even monkeys can recognize their faces on a
mirror. Animals, with the exception of human beings, are bound by
time, they exist frame by frame and react accordingly. Humans, on the
other hand, have the ability to go back and forth in time, we call it
imagination, foresight or insight and that is what gives us a better
sense of wholeness in space and time... which is what human
consciousness is all about.

What role does light (EMR) plays in determining Schroedinger's cat
state (dead or alive)? Is it light itself the only important factor
closing the loop, or, is it the observer's conscious acknowledgment
which causes the final determination of the cat's fate? Photons bring
us the past. Information from the past is locked into photons. We can
even look at what the universe was billions of years ago. Our capacity
to see is closely related to consciousness and consciousness is
closely related to light (or to the information it carries).

In other words, is the wave packet collapse a function defined by the
structures of matter, a result from the interactions and relationships
of its parts, independent from human observers, or, is objective
reduction a function of mind? The answer is 'yes' to both questions,
there is no contradiction, self-observation is a function intrinsic to
all self-organized systems.

Perception is key to the crystallization of 3D reality. Every particle
and object is accompanied by a wave that in-forms it about its shape
and environment. The particle exists in 3D only during actuality, at
the 'now' moment. EMR feeds molecules with information about the
environment (information that represents the molecule's past as it
exists in a rock-like 3D actuality). Solidity and volume manifest only
at present or actuality in a spacetime continuum, there is no material
past nor future.

Human consciousness is the ultimate product of a natural, energy
balancing mechanism, determined and regulated by the laws of
Thermodynamics. Because energy is finite, each object's energetic
requirements has to be measured before entering any given spacetime
metric, before going from its subtle quantum matter state, or wave
state, to its objective material state, or particle state. These
information requirements are met through wave interactions, and the
mechanisms governing wave superposition as described by the science of
Quantum Mechanics. Timothy Boyer termed this energy balancing
radiation 'equilibrium spectrum', others call it Unruh-Davies
radiation.

Consciousness comes from the same holistic awareness function found in
all matter. State vector reduction occurs thanks to this wholeness in
space function of matter, and human consciousness is possible thanks
to wholeness in time. It was from analyzing this holistic awareness
function of Nature that Bohm conceived his quantum potential (Q)
concept.

Holistic awareness, or self-reference, emerges from an inward
necessity which is satisfied as information is chosen from the context
in which a system may be evolving, and that's why experience/
perception is fundamental in the development of all matter, and
especially in sentient matter, because we need it in order to be able
to choose. This is why Nature (self-organized matter) transformed into
brains with eyes, from its need to observe itself. How could matter
get organized if it couldn't observe itself? Matter, in order to
evolve, had to communicate in any way naturally possible (i.e.,
surface vibrations, air vibrations, and EM radiation). Biological
organisms evolved to use light to their benefit very slowly. As we
already know, it took Nature billions of years (pre-Cambrian to
Cambrian) just to develop eyesight.

Brains are these little bio-mechanical tools that emerged with
evolution for the only purpose of enabling us to interpret and
interface with reality. In order to become more thermally efficient,
the universe needed to improve its ability to observe and perceive the
environment, so matter evolved into brains that could take advantage
of the properties of spacetime. Brains exist because there is
spacetime, not the other way around.

Nature would still be able to exist and observe itself without the
human observer... it would just be a more primitive process. Our
brains, then, are seen as Nature's best developed self-reference tool
on this part of the universe. Human consciousness is an extension of
the same holistic awareness function self-organized matter always
utilized to observe itself, therefore, in a very real way,
consciousness still is - Nature observing itself.

Experience is fundamental to existence, but it is not reality,
Berkeley was wrong. Reality is the process through which Nature is
constantly becoming. As Roger Penrose explained quasicrystal
development in 'The Emperor's New Mind', he writes (p. 564) that it
appears as if the whole crystal is 'observing' itself, registering all
atom configuration patterns embedded into their pilot-wave, using a
self- reference mechanism limited by the system's tendencies or
potentialities, by which their present state is compared to past
states and all the possible rock-like outcomes, all at once, until the
right atom configurations are found, while constructing their
"randomly forbidden, very complex icosahedral symmetries".

Experience plays an important role in the correct development of the
crystals, as well as in all self-organized systems. The crystals are
able to carry out their self-observation by following information
contained in their pilot-wave (Bohm-de Broglie) which contains past
and even future information about the crystal as a whole. Proto-qualia
for a quasicrystal would be how all the possible atom configurations
would 'feel like', as they remain in superposition, until the right
one is found, then and only then could the collapse of the wave packet
finally occur.

From the moment the first self-organizing systems appeared in Nature
to the moment the first human brain appeared it's been a few billion
years, but in both occasions the objective has been the same; to
experience existence. Penrose's quasicrystals don't have a brain, but
they follow their morphic state waves as the measure by which they
must exist, and if by any reason they were to stop following it as
they add new atoms to their body, they would end up becoming a totally
different type of material. The objective state wave a human being
follows... or the measure by which a human being exists... is also
defined by its brain wave-function. That's where the brain-body
connection comes from. Mindfulness brings a general well being.

Tao, the way of Nature, is also the way of the human mind.

--
Laurent

i suggest that you read my paper entilted "The Origin of Life as
Interpreted by Model Mechanics" in my website:
http://www.geocities.com/kn_seto/index.htm
In this paper I show how the forces of nature along with a unique
structure of space filling ether (the E-Matrix) gives rise to the
consciousness processes.
Ken seto
.
User: "Don Stockbauer"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 08 Jan 2008 09:56:05 AM
From the moment the first self-organizing systems appeared in Nature
to the moment the first human brain appeared it's been a few billion
years, but in both occasions the objective has been the same; to
experience existence.
No objective.
Neural nets evolved.
They have certain properties, including consciousness.
No objective. Only free will.
.
User: "Laurent"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 08 Jan 2008 10:42:28 AM
On Jan 8, 10:56 am, Don Stockbauer <don.stockba...@gmail.com> wrote:

From the moment the first self-organizing systems appeared in Nature
to the moment the first human brain appeared it's been a few billion
years, but in both occasions the objective has been the same; to
experience existence.

No objective.

Neural nets evolved.

They have certain properties, including consciousness.

No objective. Only free will.

Right, I shouldn't use that term, but Nature does follow a preferred
time-line. There is no purpose but there is syntropy.
Why?
--
Laurent
.
User: "brian fletcher"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 08 Jan 2008 05:45:01 PM
"Laurent" <cyberdyno@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:acafccf8-7d41-4c4b-9773-cdb0039eddc1@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

On Jan 8, 10:56 am, Don Stockbauer <don.stockba...@gmail.com> wrote:

From the moment the first self-organizing systems appeared in Nature
to the moment the first human brain appeared it's been a few billion
years, but in both occasions the objective has been the same; to
experience existence.

No objective.

Neural nets evolved.

They have certain properties, including consciousness.

No objective. Only free will.



Right, I shouldn't use that term, but Nature does follow a preferred
time-line. There is no purpose but there is syntropy.

Why?

Why dont you know?
BOfL


--
Laurent

.




User: "Ace0f_5pades"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 08 Jan 2008 08:14:09 PM
On Jan 9, 3:29=A0am, Laurent <cyberd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Consciousness

Could there be consciousness where there is no space, no time and
therefore, no motion?

Human consciousness evolved from the same holistic awareness property
which all matter has shown to possess. The evidence suggests that the
objective universe was here before human observers and that state wave
collapse is an old function of matter which through a self-reference
mechanism inherent to self-animated matter evolved to what our
consciousness is today, it is not a new function in Nature.

We are constantly choosing the present out of an infinitude of
possibilities, possible through a mechanism of quantum wave
superposition. Thoughts are formed very much in the same manner
particles are, and just like particle systems depend on matter waves
and wholeness in space and time, so does our mind. Processes forming
ideas are very much like the processes that form matter. Mind and
matter both depend on phenomena like wave superposition, non-locality
and parallel information processing, which gives matter the
possibility and the ability to self-organize into ever more energy
efficient systems.

During its existence, a particle retains more information about the
past (a history) than it has about the future, creating an information
potential (a pressure with a direction) thus the emergence of a
'quantum potential', from this potential we can partly derive its
future. (Yakir Aharonov's teleological state vector - which he derived
from David Bohm's equations.)

Even though it seems at first sight that we are describing a duality
(mind and matter as separate entities), in Bohm's view, and as the
Copenhagen Interpretation suggests, the real exists as the underlying
ground of both, taking us back to a monism.

I think that what Hiley and Bohm are saying is that, below the Planck
scale, dimension is considered an abstraction. At this level causality
and determinism are not the rule anymore. The notions of motion and
time take a different meaning.

Consciousness is spacetime dependent, just like matter. No brain, no
consciousness. First there had to be matter before there could be any
brains, and matter is spacetime dependent. Brains emerged from the
evolution of information that existed in spacetime. Thus,
consciousness appears with the emergence of matter, not before. There
can't be evolution outside of spacetime. Spacetime is where experience
takes place.

Now, after billions of years, this information exchange between matter
and the environment in which it evolves has produced ever more complex
self-organized systems. Human beings for example, have evolved to take
full advantage of this holistic awareness function of Nature, which is
what enables us to think outside the grip of time, allowing us to
remember the past and imagine the future. Thought can be conceived as
part of the same holistic awareness function with which matter started
organizing itself 14 billion of years ago.

The difference between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom is
self awareness, not even monkeys can recognize their faces on a
mirror. Animals, with the exception of human beings, are bound by
time, they exist frame by frame and react accordingly. Humans, on the
other hand, have the ability to go back and forth in time, we call it
imagination, foresight or insight and that is what gives us a better
sense of wholeness in space and time... which is what human
consciousness is all about.

What role does light (EMR) plays in determining Schroedinger's cat
state (dead or alive)? Is it light itself the only important factor
closing the loop, or, is it the observer's conscious acknowledgment
which causes the final determination of the cat's fate? Photons bring
us the past. Information from the past is locked into photons. We can
even look at what the universe was billions of years ago. Our capacity
to see is closely related to consciousness and consciousness is
closely related to light (or to the information it carries).

In other words, is the wave packet collapse a function defined by the
structures of matter, a result from the interactions and relationships
of its parts, independent from human observers, or, is objective
reduction a function of mind? The answer is 'yes' to both questions,
there is no contradiction, self-observation is a function intrinsic to
all self-organized systems.

Perception is key to the crystallization of 3D reality. Every particle
and object is accompanied by a wave that in-forms it about its shape
and environment. The particle exists in 3D only during actuality, at
the 'now' moment. EMR feeds molecules with information about the
environment (information that represents the molecule's past as it
exists in a rock-like 3D actuality). Solidity and volume manifest only
at present or actuality in a spacetime continuum, there is no material
past nor future.

Human consciousness is the ultimate product of a natural, energy
balancing mechanism, determined and regulated by the laws of
Thermodynamics. Because energy is finite, each object's energetic
requirements has to be measured before entering any given spacetime
metric, before going from its subtle quantum matter state, or wave
state, to its objective material state, or particle state. These
information requirements are met through wave interactions, and the
mechanisms governing wave superposition as described by the science of
Quantum Mechanics. Timothy Boyer termed this energy balancing
radiation 'equilibrium spectrum', others call it Unruh-Davies
radiation.

Consciousness comes from the same holistic awareness function found in
all matter. State vector reduction occurs thanks to this wholeness in
space function of matter, and human consciousness is possible thanks
to wholeness in time. It was from analyzing this holistic awareness
function of Nature that Bohm conceived his quantum potential (Q)
concept.

Holistic awareness, or self-reference, emerges from an inward
necessity which is satisfied as information is chosen from the context
in which a system may be evolving, and that's why experience/
perception is fundamental in the development of all matter, and
especially in sentient matter, because we need it in order to be able
to choose. This is why Nature (self-organized matter) transformed into
brains with eyes, from its need to observe itself. How could matter
get organized if it couldn't observe itself? Matter, in order to
evolve, had to communicate in any way naturally possible (i.e.,
surface vibrations, air vibrations, and EM radiation). Biological
organisms evolved to use light to their benefit very slowly. As we
already know, it took Nature billions of years (pre-Cambrian to
Cambrian) just to develop eyesight.

Brains are these little bio-mechanical tools that emerged with
evolution for the only purpose of enabling us to interpret and
interface with reality. In order to become more thermally efficient,
the universe needed to improve its ability to observe and perceive the
environment, so matter evolved into brains that could take advantage
of the properties of spacetime. Brains exist because there is
spacetime, not the other way around.

Nature would still be able to exist and observe itself without the
human observer... it would just be a more primitive process. Our
brains, then, are seen as Nature's best developed self-reference tool
on this part of the universe. Human consciousness is an extension of
the same holistic awareness function self-organized matter always
utilized to observe itself, therefore, in a very real way,
consciousness still is - Nature observing itself.

Experience is fundamental to existence, but it is not reality,
Berkeley was wrong. Reality is the process through which Nature is
constantly becoming. As Roger Penrose explained quasicrystal
development in 'The Emperor's New Mind', he writes (p. 564) that it
appears as if the whole crystal is 'observing' itself, registering all
atom configuration patterns embedded into their pilot-wave, using a
self- reference mechanism limited by the system's tendencies or
potentialities, by which their present state is compared to past
states and all the possible rock-like outcomes, all at once, until the
right atom configurations are found, while constructing their
"randomly forbidden, very complex icosahedral symmetries".

Experience plays an important role in the correct development of the
crystals, as well as in all self-organized systems. The crystals are
able to carry out their self-observation by following information
contained in their pilot-wave (Bohm-de Broglie) which contains past
and even future information about the crystal as a whole. Proto-qualia
for a quasicrystal would be how all the possible atom configurations
would 'feel like', as they remain in superposition, until the right
one is found, then and only then could the collapse of the wave packet
finally occur.

From the moment the first self-organizing systems appeared in Nature
to the moment the first human brain appeared it's been a few billion
years, but in both occasions the objective has been the same; to
experience existence. Penrose's quasicrystals don't have a brain, but
they follow their morphic state waves as the measure by which they
must exist, and if by any reason they were to stop following it as
they add new atoms to their body, they would end up becoming a totally
different type of material. The objective state wave a human being
follows... or the measure by which a human being exists... is also
defined by its brain wave-function. That's where the brain-body
connection comes from. Mindfulness brings a general well being.

Tao, the way of Nature, is also the way of the human mind.

--
Laurent

Why did you bring it here Darren?
the question was plain and simple enough.
Here's a literal translation...
the linear algorithm is a statement of the Uninverse...
therefore the Universe/IO
says the universe divided by negative and positive polarity.
What happens to gravity when I and O =3D zero? thats all the question
is, and it is reference to your premise of gravity.
The proposal might be an impossible statement, but it asks that does
gravity exist when the atomic life is depleted? in otherwords, can
objects still exist devoid of atomic life?
.
User: "Ace0f_5pades"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 08 Jan 2008 08:14:53 PM
On Jan 9, 3:14=A0pm, Ace0f_5pades <m4de...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Jan 9, 3:29=A0am, Laurent <cyberd...@gmail.com> wrote:



Consciousness


Could there be consciousness where there is no space, no time and
therefore, no motion?


Human consciousness evolved from the same holistic awareness property
which all matter has shown to possess. The evidence suggests that the
objective universe was here before human observers and that state wave
collapse is an old function of matter which through a self-reference
mechanism inherent to self-animated matter evolved to what our
consciousness is today, it is not a new function in Nature.


We are constantly choosing the present out of an infinitude of
possibilities, possible through a mechanism of quantum wave
superposition. Thoughts are formed very much in the same manner
particles are, and just like particle systems depend on matter waves
and wholeness in space and time, so does our mind. Processes forming
ideas are very much like the processes that form matter. Mind and
matter both depend on phenomena like wave superposition, non-locality
and parallel information processing, which gives matter the
possibility and the ability to self-organize into ever more energy
efficient systems.


During its existence, a particle retains more information about the
past (a history) than it has about the future, creating an information
potential (a pressure with a direction) thus the emergence of a
'quantum potential', from this potential we can partly derive its
future. (Yakir Aharonov's teleological state vector - which he derived
from David Bohm's equations.)


Even though it seems at first sight that we are describing a duality
(mind and matter as separate entities), in Bohm's view, and as the
Copenhagen Interpretation suggests, the real exists as the underlying
ground of both, taking us back to a monism.


I think that what Hiley and Bohm are saying is that, below the Planck
scale, dimension is considered an abstraction. At this level causality
and determinism are not the rule anymore. The notions of motion and
time take a different meaning.


Consciousness is spacetime dependent, just like matter. No brain, no
consciousness. First there had to be matter before there could be any
brains, and matter is spacetime dependent. Brains emerged from the
evolution of information that existed in spacetime. Thus,
consciousness appears with the emergence of matter, not before. There
can't be evolution outside of spacetime. Spacetime is where experience
takes place.


Now, after billions of years, this information exchange between matter
and the environment in which it evolves has produced ever more complex
self-organized systems. Human beings for example, have evolved to take
full advantage of this holistic awareness function of Nature, which is
what enables us to think outside the grip of time, allowing us to
remember the past and imagine the future. Thought can be conceived as
part of the same holistic awareness function with which matter started
organizing itself 14 billion of years ago.


The difference between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom is
self awareness, not even monkeys can recognize their faces on a
mirror. Animals, with the exception of human beings, are bound by
time, they exist frame by frame and react accordingly. Humans, on the
other hand, have the ability to go back and forth in time, we call it
imagination, foresight or insight and that is what gives us a better
sense of wholeness in space and time... which is what human
consciousness is all about.


What role does light (EMR) plays in determining Schroedinger's cat
state (dead or alive)? Is it light itself the only important factor
closing the loop, or, is it the observer's conscious acknowledgment
which causes the final determination of the cat's fate? Photons bring
us the past. Information from the past is locked into photons. We can
even look at what the universe was billions of years ago. Our capacity
to see is closely related to consciousness and consciousness is
closely related to light (or to the information it carries).


In other words, is the wave packet collapse a function defined by the
structures of matter, a result from the interactions and relationships
of its parts, independent from human observers, or, is objective
reduction a function of mind? The answer is 'yes' to both questions,
there is no contradiction, self-observation is a function intrinsic to
all self-organized systems.


Perception is key to the crystallization of 3D reality. Every particle
and object is accompanied by a wave that in-forms it about its shape
and environment. The particle exists in 3D only during actuality, at
the 'now' moment. EMR feeds molecules with information about the
environment (information that represents the molecule's past as it
exists in a rock-like 3D actuality). Solidity and volume manifest only
at present or actuality in a spacetime continuum, there is no material
past nor future.


Human consciousness is the ultimate product of a natural, energy
balancing mechanism, determined and regulated by the laws of
Thermodynamics. Because energy is finite, each object's energetic
requirements has to be measured before entering any given spacetime
metric, before going from its subtle quantum matter state, or wave
state, to its objective material state, or particle state. These
information requirements are met through wave interactions, and the
mechanisms governing wave superposition as described by the science of
Quantum Mechanics. Timothy Boyer termed this energy balancing
radiation 'equilibrium spectrum', others call it Unruh-Davies
radiation.


Consciousness comes from the same holistic awareness function found in
all matter. State vector reduction occurs thanks to this wholeness in
space function of matter, and human consciousness is possible thanks
to wholeness in time. It was from analyzing this holistic awareness
function of Nature that Bohm conceived his quantum potential (Q)
concept.


Holistic awareness, or self-reference, emerges from an inward
necessity which is satisfied as information is chosen from the context
in which a system may be evolving, and that's why experience/
perception is fundamental in the development of all matter, and
especially in sentient matter, because we need it in order to be able
to choose. This is why Nature (self-organized matter) transformed into
brains with eyes, from its need to observe itself. How could matter
get organized if it couldn't observe itself? Matter, in order to
evolve, had to communicate in any way naturally possible (i.e.,
surface vibrations, air vibrations, and EM radiation). Biological
organisms evolved to use light to their benefit very slowly. As we
already know, it took Nature billions of years (pre-Cambrian to
Cambrian) just to develop eyesight.


Brains are these little bio-mechanical tools that emerged with
evolution for the only purpose of enabling us to interpret and
interface with reality. In order to become more thermally efficient,
the universe needed to improve its ability to observe and perceive the
environment, so matter evolved into brains that could take advantage
of the properties of spacetime. Brains exist because there is
spacetime, not the other way around.


Nature would still be able to exist and observe itself without the
human observer... it would just be a more primitive process. Our
brains, then, are seen as Nature's best developed self-reference tool
on this part of the universe. Human consciousness is an extension of
the same holistic awareness function self-organized matter always
utilized to observe itself, therefore, in a very real way,
consciousness still is - Nature observing itself.


Experience is fundamental to existence, but it is not reality,
Berkeley was wrong. Reality is the process through which Nature is
constantly becoming. As Roger Penrose explained quasicrystal
development in 'The Emperor's New Mind', he writes (p. 564) that it
appears as if the whole crystal is 'observing' itself, registering all
atom configuration patterns embedded into their pilot-wave, using a
self- reference mechanism limited by the system's tendencies or
potentialities, by which their present state is compared to past
states and all the possible rock-like outcomes, all at once, until the
right atom configurations are found, while constructing their
"randomly forbidden, very complex icosahedral symmetries".


Experience plays an important role in the correct development of the
crystals, as well as in all self-organized systems. The crystals are
able to carry out their self-observation by following information
contained in their pilot-wave (Bohm-de Broglie) which contains past
and even future information about the crystal as a whole. Proto-qualia
for a quasicrystal would be how all the possible atom configurations
would 'feel like', as they remain in superposition, until the right
one is found, then and only then could the collapse of the wave packet
finally occur.


From the moment the first self-organizing systems appeared in Nature
to the moment the first human brain appeared it's been a few billion
years, but in both occasions the objective has been the same; to
experience existence. Penrose's quasicrystals don't have a brain, but
they follow their morphic state waves as the measure by which they
must exist, and if by any reason they were to stop following it as
they add new atoms to their body, they would end up becoming a totally
different type of material. The objective state wave a human being
follows... or the measure by which a human being exists... is also
defined by its brain wave-function. That's where the brain-body
connection comes from. Mindfulness brings a general well being.


Tao, the


...

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.

User: "Ace0f_5pades"

Title: Re: Consciousness* 08 Jan 2008 08:17:11 PM
On Jan 9, 3:14=A0pm, Ace0f_5pades <m4de...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Jan 9, 3:29=A0am, Laurent <cyberd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Consciousness


Could there be consciousness where there is no space, no time and
therefore, no motion?


Human consciousness evolved from the same holistic awareness property
which all matter has shown to possess. The evidence suggests that the
objective universe was here before human observers and that state wave
collapse is an old function of matter which through a self-reference
mechanism inherent to self-animated matter evolved to what our
consciousness is today, it is not a new function in Nature.


We are constantly choosing the present out of an infinitude of
possibilities, possible through a mechanism of quantum wave
superposition. Thoughts are formed very much in the same manner
particles are, and just like particle systems depend on matter waves
and wholeness in space and time, so does our mind. Processes forming
ideas are very much like the processes that form matter. Mind and
matter both depend on phenomena like wave superposition, non-locality
and parallel information processing, which gives matter the
possibility and the ability to self-organize into ever more energy
efficient systems.


During its existence, a particle retains more information about the
past (a history) than it has about the future, creating an information
potential (a pressure with a direction) thus the emergence of a
'quantum potential', from this potential we can partly derive its
future. (Yakir Aharonov's teleological state vector - which he derived
from David Bohm's equations.)


Even though it seems at first sight that we are describing a duality
(mind and matter as separate entities), in Bohm's view, and as the
Copenhagen Interpretation suggests, the real exists as the underlying
ground of both, taking us back to a monism.


I think that what Hiley and Bohm are saying is that, below the Planck
scale, dimension is considered an abstraction. At this level causality
and determinism are not the rule anymore. The notions of motion and
time take a different meaning.


Consciousness is spacetime dependent, just like matter. No brain, no
consciousness. First there had to be matter before there could be any
brains, and matter is spacetime dependent. Brains emerged from the
evolution of information that existed in spacetime. Thus,
consciousness appears with the emergence of matter, not before. There
can't be evolution outside of spacetime. Spacetime is where experience
takes place.


Now, after billions of years, this information exchange between matter
and the environment in which it evolves has produced ever more complex
self-organized systems. Human beings for example, have evolved to take
full advantage of this holistic awareness function of Nature, which is
what enables us to think outside the grip of time, allowing us to
remember the past and imagine the future. Thought can be conceived as
part of the same holistic awareness function with which matter started
organizing itself 14 billion of years ago.


The difference between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom is
self awareness, not even monkeys can recognize their faces on a
mirror. Animals, with the exception of human beings, are bound by
time, they exist frame by frame and react accordingly. Humans, on the
other hand, have the ability to go back and forth in time, we call it
imagination, foresight or insight and that is what gives us a better
sense of wholeness in space and time... which is what human
consciousness is all about.


What role does light (EMR) plays in determining Schroedinger's cat
state (dead or alive)? Is it light itself the only important factor
closing the loop, or, is it the observer's conscious acknowledgment
which causes the final determination of the cat's fate? Photons bring
us the past. Information from the past is locked into photons. We can
even look at what the universe was billions of years ago. Our capacity
to see is closely related to consciousness and consciousness is
closely related to light (or to the information it carries).


In other words, is the wave packet collapse a function defined by the
structures of matter, a result from the interactions and relationships
of its parts, independent from human observers, or, is objective
reduction a function of mind? The answer is 'yes' to both questions,
there is no contradiction, self-observation is a function intrinsic to
all self-organized systems.


Perception is key to the crystallization of 3D reality. Every particle
and object is accompanied by a wave that in-forms it about its shape
and environment. The particle exists in 3D only during actuality, at
the 'now' moment. EMR feeds molecules with information about the
environment (information that represents the molecule's past as it
exists in a rock-like 3D actuality). Solidity and volume manifest only
at present or actuality in a spacetime continuum, there is no material
past nor future.


Human consciousness is the ultimate product of a natural, energy
balancing mechanism, determined and regulated by the laws of
Thermodynamics. Because energy is finite, each object's energetic
requirements has to be measured before entering any given spacetime
metric, before going from its subtle quantum matter state, or wave
state, to its objective material state, or particle state. These
information requirements are met through wave interactions, and the
mechanisms governing wave superposition as described by the science of
Quantum Mechanics. Timothy Boyer termed this energy balancing
radiation 'equilibrium spectrum', others call it Unruh-Davies
radiation.


Consciousness comes from the same holistic awareness function found in
all matter. State vector reduction occurs thanks to this wholeness in
space function of matter, and human consciousness is possible thanks
to wholeness in time. It was from analyzing this holistic awareness
function of Nature that Bohm conceived his quantum potential (Q)
concept.


Holistic awareness, or self-reference, emerges from an inward
necessity which is satisfied as information is chosen from the context
in which a system may be evolving, and that's why experience/
perception is fundamental in the development of all matter, and
especially in sentient matter, because we need it in order to be able
to choose. This is why Nature (self-organized matter) transformed into
brains with eyes, from its need to observe itself. How could matter
get organized if it couldn't observe itself? Matter, in order to
evolve, had to communicate in any way naturally possible (i.e.,
surface vibrations, air vibrations, and EM radiation). Biological
organisms evolved to use light to their benefit very slowly. As we
already know, it took Nature billions of years (pre-Cambrian to
Cambrian) just to develop eyesight.


Brains are these little bio-mechanical tools that emerged with
evolution for the only purpose of enabling us to interpret and
interface with reality. In order to become more thermally efficient,
the universe needed to improve its ability to observe and perceive the
environment, so matter evolved into brains that could take advantage
of the properties of spacetime. Brains exist because there is
spacetime, not the other way around.


Nature would still be able to exist and observe itself without the
human observer... it would just be a more primitive process. Our
brains, then, are seen as Nature's best developed self-reference tool
on this part of the universe. Human consciousness is an extension of
the same holistic awareness function self-organized matter always
utilized to observe itself, therefore, in a very real way,
consciousness still is - Nature observing itself.


Experience is fundamental to existence, but it is not reality,
Berkeley was wrong. Reality is the process through which Nature is
constantly becoming. As Roger Penrose explained quasicrystal
development in 'The Emperor's New Mind', he writes (p. 564) that it
appears as if the whole crystal is 'observing' itself, registering all
atom configuration patterns embedded into their pilot-wave, using a
self- reference mechanism limited by the system's tendencies or
potentialities, by which their present state is compared to past
states and all the possible rock-like outcomes, all at once, until the
right atom configurations are found, while constructing their
"randomly forbidden, very complex icosahedral symmetries".


Experience plays an important role in the correct development of the
crystals, as well as in all self-organized systems. The crystals are
able to carry out their self-observation by following information
contained in their pilot-wave (Bohm-de Broglie) which contains past
and even future information about the crystal as a whole. Proto-qualia
for a quasicrystal would be how all the possible atom configurations
would 'feel like', as they remain in superposition, until the right
one is found, then and only then could the collapse of the wave packet
finally occur.


From the moment the first self-organizing systems appeared in Nature
to the moment the first human brain appeared it's been a few billion
years, but in both occasions the objective has been the same; to
experience existence. Penrose's quasicrystals don't have a brain, but
they follow their morphic state waves as the measure by which they
must exist, and if by any reason they were to stop following it as
they add new atoms to their body, they would end up becoming a totally
different type of material. The objective state wave a human being
follows... or the measure by which a human being exists... is also
defined by its brain wave-function. That's where the brain-body
connection comes from. Mindfulness brings a general well being.


Tao, the way of Nature, is also the way of the human mind.


--
Laurent


Why did you bring it here Darren?

the question was plain and simple enough.

Here's a literal translation...
the linear algorithm