| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"John Schoenfeld" |
| Date: |
26 Sep 2003 12:52:12 AM |
| Object: |
Conservation of angular momentum not apparant |
Can anyone explain why the following contraption displaces?
http://www.open.org/davidc/WATOP.AVI
http://www.open.org/davidc/WABACK.AVI
JS
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| User: "Richard Henry" |
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| Title: Re: Conservation of angular momentum not apparant |
26 Sep 2003 02:20:45 PM |
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"John Schoenfeld" <j.schoenfeld@programmer.net> wrote in message
news:a98beaaa.0309252152.5c244d0b@posting.google.com...
Can anyone explain why the following contraption displaces?
http://www.open.org/davidc/WATOP.AVI
http://www.open.org/davidc/WABACK.AVI
An unbalanced weight on an axle causing unbalanced interaction with the
water in the tub.
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| User: "John Schoenfeld" |
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| Title: Re: Conservation of angular momentum not apparant |
28 Sep 2003 08:43:29 PM |
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"Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com> wrote in message news:<ik0db.2022$La.1501@fed1read02>...
"John Schoenfeld" <j.schoenfeld@programmer.net> wrote in message
news:a98beaaa.0309252152.5c244d0b@posting.google.com...
Can anyone explain why the following contraption displaces?
http://www.open.org/davidc/WATOP.AVI
http://www.open.org/davidc/WABACK.AVI
An unbalanced weight on an axle causing unbalanced interaction with the
water in the tub.
What are you talking about? Are you saying that if I have a ship with
one end 10x heavier than the other end, that this ship will accelerate
horizontally?
If you are in a canoe floating on perfectly idle water, are you going
to tell me that you can accelerate the canoe and its contents without
a) interacting with an external mass (other than water canoe is
floating on)
b) reducing mass of canoe
This is simply not possible as you will violate Newtonian mechanics.
The net momentum is always inertially conserved (it may oscillate with
centre of mass remaining constant) and it may not accelerate
whatsoever.
But the problem is that the above video does clearly show a floating
device that can accelerate its centre of mass without interacting
externally (other than the floating on water, but this force is
irrespective of the perpedicular acceleration).
Simply put, the horizontal component of the devices translational
momentum is not inertially conserved, and thus violatory of Newtonian
mechanics.
JS
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| User: "Virgil" |
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| Title: Re: Conservation of angular momentum not apparant |
28 Sep 2003 10:15:44 PM |
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In article <a98beaaa.0309281743.5c3dfe21@posting.google.com>,
(John Schoenfeld) wrote:
If you are in a canoe floating on perfectly idle water, are you going
to tell me that you can accelerate the canoe and its contents without
a) interacting with an external mass (other than water canoe is
floating on)
b) reducing mass of canoe
This is simply not possible as you will violate Newtonian mechanics.
The net momentum is always inertially conserved (it may oscillate with
centre of mass remaining constant) and it may not accelerate
whatsoever.
I have myself moved a canoe in just such a manner. One sits near one
end of the canoe and bounces up and down, carefully. The varying
forces of the water on the canoe as it moves up and down push the
canoe towards the lighter end. You can't go very fast this way, but
you can go slowly.
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| User: "John Schoenfeld" |
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| Title: Re: Conservation of angular momentum not apparant |
29 Sep 2003 06:17:10 AM |
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Virgil <vmhjr2@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<vmhjr2-F21822.21154428092003@news.newsguy.com>...
In article <a98beaaa.0309281743.5c3dfe21@posting.google.com>,
j.schoenfeld@programmer.net (John Schoenfeld) wrote:
If you are in a canoe floating on perfectly idle water, are you going
to tell me that you can accelerate the canoe and its contents without
a) interacting with an external mass (other than water canoe is
floating on)
b) reducing mass of canoe
This is simply not possible as you will violate Newtonian mechanics.
The net momentum is always inertially conserved (it may oscillate with
centre of mass remaining constant) and it may not accelerate
whatsoever.
I have myself moved a canoe in just such a manner. One sits near one
end of the canoe and bounces up and down, carefully. The varying
forces of the water on the canoe as it moves up and down push the
canoe towards the lighter end. You can't go very fast this way, but
you can go slowly.
Actually, you are right. The video clearly shows non-uniform
distribution of downward force on a non-uniform water surface, so
Newtonian motion does ensue.
To accept the absurdity of inertial propulsion is to deny 200 years
empirical evidence. Unforunately, crackpots outnumber non-crackpots
like irrationals out-number rationals.
JS
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| User: "John Schoenfeld" |
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| Title: Re: Conservation of angular momentum not apparant |
29 Sep 2003 04:30:45 AM |
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Virgil <vmhjr2@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<vmhjr2-F21822.21154428092003@news.newsguy.com>...
In article <a98beaaa.0309281743.5c3dfe21@posting.google.com>,
j.schoenfeld@programmer.net (John Schoenfeld) wrote:
If you are in a canoe floating on perfectly idle water, are you going
to tell me that you can accelerate the canoe and its contents without
a) interacting with an external mass (other than water canoe is
floating on)
b) reducing mass of canoe
This is simply not possible as you will violate Newtonian mechanics.
The net momentum is always inertially conserved (it may oscillate with
centre of mass remaining constant) and it may not accelerate
whatsoever.
I have myself moved a canoe in just such a manner. One sits near one
end of the canoe and bounces up and down, carefully. The varying
forces of the water on the canoe as it moves up and down push the
canoe towards the lighter end. You can't go very fast this way, but
you can go slowly.
The water becomes non-idle at that point.
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| User: "Virgil" |
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| Title: Re: Conservation of angular momentum not apparant |
29 Sep 2003 01:08:06 PM |
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In article <a98beaaa.0309290130.54157138@posting.google.com>,
(John Schoenfeld) wrote:
Virgil <vmhjr2@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:<vmhjr2-F21822.21154428092003@news.newsguy.com>...
In article <a98beaaa.0309281743.5c3dfe21@posting.google.com>,
(John Schoenfeld) wrote:
If you are in a canoe floating on perfectly idle water, are you going
to tell me that you can accelerate the canoe and its contents without
a) interacting with an external mass (other than water canoe is
floating on)
b) reducing mass of canoe
This is simply not possible as you will violate Newtonian mechanics.
The net momentum is always inertially conserved (it may oscillate with
centre of mass remaining constant) and it may not accelerate
whatsoever.
I have myself moved a canoe in just such a manner. One sits near one
end of the canoe and bounces up and down, carefully. The varying
forces of the water on the canoe as it moves up and down push the
canoe towards the lighter end. You can't go very fast this way, but
you can go slowly.
The water becomes non-idle at that point.
Only if the canoeist becomes non-idle!
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| User: "Bob Pease" |
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| Title: Re: Conservation of angular momentum not apparant |
29 Sep 2003 04:30:27 PM |
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"Virgil" <vmhjr2@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:vmhjr2-F8EC65.12080629092003@news.newsguy.com...
In article <a98beaaa.0309290130.54157138@posting.google.com>,
j.schoenfeld@programmer.net (John Schoenfeld) wrote:
Virgil <vmhjr2@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:<vmhjr2-F21822.21154428092003@news.newsguy.com>...
In article <a98beaaa.0309281743.5c3dfe21@posting.google.com>,
j.schoenfeld@programmer.net (John Schoenfeld) wrote:
If you are in a canoe floating on perfectly idle water, are you
going
to tell me that you can accelerate the canoe and its contents
without
a) interacting with an external mass (other than water canoe is
floating on)
b) reducing mass of canoe
This is simply not possible as you will violate Newtonian mechanics.
The net momentum is always inertially conserved (it may oscillate
with
centre of mass remaining constant) and it may not accelerate
whatsoever.
I have myself moved a canoe in just such a manner. One sits near one
end of the canoe and bounces up and down, carefully. The varying
forces of the water on the canoe as it moves up and down push the
canoe towards the lighter end. You can't go very fast this way, but
you can go slowly.
The water becomes non-idle at that point.
Only if the canoeist becomes non-idle!
If the mass of the canoeist is allowed to change, interesting scatological
solutions are suggested!
)>:
RJ P
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| User: "Virgil" |
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| Title: Re: Conservation of angular momentum not apparant |
29 Sep 2003 10:55:43 PM |
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In article <bla89j$45e@dispatch.concentric.net>,
"Bob Pease" <bobnospampease@concentric.net> wrote:
I have myself moved a canoe in just such a manner. One sits near one
end of the canoe and bounces up and down, carefully. The varying
forces of the water on the canoe as it moves up and down push the
canoe towards the lighter end. You can't go very fast this way, but
you can go slowly.
The water becomes non-idle at that point.
Only if the canoeist becomes non-idle!
If the mass of the canoeist is allowed to change, interesting scatological
solutions are suggested!
)>:
RJ P
The canoeist's momentum and kinetic energy may change without his
mass changing (ignoring relativistic effects), which makes his
mass-in-motion non-idle.
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| User: "Edward Green" |
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| Title: Re: Conservation of angular momentum not apparant |
29 Sep 2003 06:06:10 PM |
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(John Schoenfeld) wrote in message news:<a98beaaa.0309252152.5c244d0b@posting.google.com>...
Can anyone explain why the following contraption displaces?
http://www.open.org/davidc/WATOP.AVI
http://www.open.org/davidc/WABACK.AVI
I can't really figure out what is going on with this contraption (nor
do I really wish to be enlightened), and I doubt anyone else could
from only viewing these short videos.
In general, though, I don't see the mystification factor. The vessel
is assymetrical and is undergoing some (accordingly) assymmetrical
rocking motion via internal mass displacement. Why would you think
such a device could _not_ generate a net thrust? No law of physics or
symmetry is broken -- and what is not prohibited is required to be
allowed (or something like that ;-).
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| User: "François Guillet" |
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| Title: Re: Conservation of angular momentum not apparant |
26 Sep 2003 03:56:56 AM |
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Anisotropic action/reaction of sliding friction on water.
To prove his concept the author should rather suspend his setup to wires and
observe a deviation angle.
FG
"John Schoenfeld" <j.schoenfeld@programmer.net> a écrit dans le message de
news:a98beaaa.0309252152.5c244d0b@posting.google.com...
Can anyone explain why the following contraption displaces?
http://www.open.org/davidc/WATOP.AVI
http://www.open.org/davidc/WABACK.AVI
JS
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| User: "John Schoenfeld" |
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| Title: Re: Conservation of angular momentum not apparant |
26 Sep 2003 09:34:08 AM |
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Anisotropic action/reaction of sliding friction on water.
To prove his concept the author should rather suspend his setup to wires and
observe a deviation angle.
What is the cause of the displacement precisely? How does this
contraption cause sliding friction and more so, anisotropically across
the surface of water?
FG
"John Schoenfeld" <j.schoenfeld@programmer.net> a écrit dans le message de
news:a98beaaa.0309252152.5c244d0b@posting.google.com...
Can anyone explain why the following contraption displaces?
http://www.open.org/davidc/WATOP.AVI
http://www.open.org/davidc/WABACK.AVI
JS
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