Considering perspectives of reality



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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "kogs"
Date: 10 Jan 2006 07:16:00 AM
Object: Considering perspectives of reality
It is as difficult for neurotypicals (i.e. "normal folks") to empathize with
autistics, as it is for autistics to empathize with neurotypicals. How an
autistic perceives reality is, in many respects, different from how a
neurotypical perceives reality. I have Aspeger syndrome, which is almost
identical to autism. I had a sudden onset reactive psychotic episode a few
years ago, and now I have psychotic symptoms with no underlying psychotic
disorder. My psychotic episode, in part, resulted from seventeen years of
Freudian psychotherapy. Prior my psychotic episode, I had no idea how
dangerous and futile it was to perform (Freudian) psychotherapy on an
autistic.
Psychotherapy attempts a transference of the patient's earliest emotional
affect-objects "at" the (Freudian) psychotherapist. (Almost) all other types
of psychiatric therapy avoids transferences, "at" the therapist, of a
patients affect-objects. Following the successful transference, a
countertransference of projection of the patient's affect objects is
attempted. A countertransference is the Freudian psychologist's
interpretation of the patient's transference, projected back at the patient.
This is an extremely involved process that is more of an art form than a
science. The projection of the interpretation can take the form of subtle
psychological manipulations on the part of the psychoanalyst. It can also be
involve an explanation of what has occurred, that is given to the patient in
terms he or she can understand. But an autistic's affect-objects are in an
autistic state, and if an autistic has a transference, their psyche is
"awoken" from its prenatal state, and a psychotic episode ensues.
So now I am "stuck" between the autistic and neurotypical "worlds," and have
psychotic symptoms with no underlying psychotic disorder. I have been
modeling the ontology, with my autistic-before and psychotic
neurotypical-after "snapshots of reality" serving as independent,
perspectives of reality. Having two distinct perspectives of reality gave me
the ability to inferentially model a metaphysical reality (an ontology is
necessarily metaphysical). I understand that perceptions are antidotal and
highly suspect, so I did not permit my "snapshots of reality" to influence
the synthesis of the model. However, having perceived such extreme
perspectives of reality, I did not dismiss the final model on the basis of
its infinite, Platonic, extensibility. The metaphysics of reality is
Platonistic (it is Wheeler's pre-geometry), the model is synthetic, and I am
psychotic, so to say the least, it is going to be difficult to gain academic
concurrence that the model is valid.
This is abstract from the paper "A Platonic delusion: the identification of
psychosis and mysticism" by Daren Kemp:
"This paper discusses the frequently-made claim that psychosis and mysticism
are identifiable. Noting the failure of attempts by others to define
psychosis and mysticism, I present what I call the symptomatological case
for identifying them, hoping in this way to give an idea of their essential
features. More general observations about the theoretical nature of the
relationship between mental health and religion are made which might
indicate an identification of psychosis and mysticism. It is then claimed
that the idea of the identification often derives, though at times
unconsciously, from an outmoded Platonic model. A short sketch of the
intellectual history of the identification is presented. Finally, a more
plausible basis for comparing psychosis and mysticism is offered, based on
similar sociological origins or individual psychodynamic factors, before
concluding that a fundamental difference in the conceptual status of
psychosis as an illness and mysticism as a valued state of consciousness a
priori precludes their identification."
Empiricism is philosophic metaphysical doctrine, not scientific fact. The
pre-geometry is Platonism, and it is only inferable by examining archetypes,
self-similarities and recapitulations of an ontologically normalizable
reality, and it is not deductible by means of empirical reductionism alone.
Inference of the ontological pre-geometry is the only means of discovering
reality is metaphysical, but from this conceptual model a mathematical model
can be derived; hence empirical reduction and logical deduction, alone, are
insufficient for discovering the ontology. The philosophy of science is so
intent to "prove" empiricism by deriving a mathematical model of reality
(i.e., a TOE) from only empirical reduction, that skepticism of the
doctrines of the philosophy of science and mathematics is presently
unacceptable within academia. Science must compromise in this case only, and
meet metaphysics half-way. This compromise is not only important for
academia, but for civilization as well.
In this modern day-and-age, inferences concerning reality that cannot by
empirically falsified, are assumed to be delusional. While I am not claiming
accounts given by psychiatric patients are accurate, rather the accounts for
many categories of delusions are a metaphysical misperceptions of actual
archetypes, synchronicities and teleological entrainments. It is controlling
of science to dismiss atypical perceptions as meaningless, only on the basis
of the lack of scientific accounts for the modality of atypical perceptions.
Many delusions (e.g., a Platonic delusion) are diagnosed solely based upon
their conflicting with the philosophical doctrine held by psychiatrists, but
psychiatry (mostly) employs pre-Einsteinian physics as its empirical
foundation. That is due to relativistic and quantum mechanical models shed
little additional light upon phenomenology. The reason for this is,
relativistic and quantum mechanics requires phenomenological integration
from a starting point of a conceptual metaphysical model of the ontology.
The unconstrained feedback of philosophical doctrines between science and
the philosophy of science has created a religion, scientism, where many
scientists now lack skepticism of the direct implementation of doctrine(s)
as premise(s) of many scientific theories. Many scientists also believe in
scientific infallibility. Not only do I face the problem of convincing very
intelligent people that they are wrong on many important matters, and the
intellectual tools and methods they are employing are inadequate to fully
describe reality, I also must commit heresy against scientism, and single
handedly destroy an unorganized religion with many millions of believers.
Science has done nothing to investigate accounts for theological and
ontological claims of individuals that are labeled as psychotic. With all of
the abuse organized religions gets from science and academia, in the present
day, organized religions have been much more open to scientific examination
of religion, than science has been to organized religions investigation of
science.
Please ponder: "A Platonic delusion." The only reason that Daren Kemp
labeled Platonism a delusion is that it contradicts his religious belief
that reality is non-Platonic. Absence of evidence is not evidence of
absence! It is arrogant and ignorant for so many scientist to dismiss all
contradictory philosophical doctrines as being of no practical value or
meaning -- scientists should know better! If I were to conjecture why this
is, it is so a TOE could be discovered by science, and science (and
mathematics) alone would get the credit for discovering the nature of
reality. If you asked a theoretical physicist "could reality be Platonic?"
most would say it is highly unlikely, but remotely possible, and he or she
would be unable to fully consider all of the immense societal ramification
if someone discovered that reality is Platonic.
I have written a document called "A Model of Reality" and have given it to
some of the doctors that treat me. They looked at it, but their sanity does
not let them consider that a psychotic has discovered that "things are not
as they seem," even if it is the most likely way this discovery would be
made. If you would like to read it:
http://www.metaspec.org/onto/Doh.pdf
It is very superficial and psychosocial-centric. Words of wisdom concerning
what I should do next, would be appreciated.
Also, there are many ancillary issues I did not cover in Doh.pdf. Please
read:
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html
for indirect support of some of the arguments in Doh.pdf. It is going to be,
at least, a couple of weeks before I have technically detailed model of the
ontology written. Eventually, I need help with disseminating the model, and
having it reviewed, but obviously first I need to convince others of the
viability of the model, so any feedback on how best to present it, would
also be appreciated.
.

User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 10 Jan 2006 11:38:28 AM
"kogs" <nomail@nomail.nom> wrote in message
news:ksOwf.57858$q%.6672@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...

It is as difficult for neurotypicals (i.e. "normal folks") to empathize
with autistics, as it is for autistics to empathize with neurotypicals.
How an autistic perceives reality is, in many respects, different from how
a neurotypical perceives reality. I have Aspeger syndrome, which is almost
identical to autism. I had a sudden onset reactive psychotic episode a few
years ago, and now I have psychotic symptoms with no underlying psychotic
disorder. My psychotic episode, in part, resulted from seventeen years of
Freudian psychotherapy. Prior my psychotic episode, I had no idea how
dangerous and futile it was to perform (Freudian) psychotherapy on an
autistic.

A similar question is whether male doctors, specializing in the
psychological effects of childbirth who council pregnent women, should have
a right to such practice since they cannot experience pregnancy themselves.
If true then your argument would be that only Autistics should be able to
diagnose Autistics?
Below you talk about forced therapy but I thought patients have a right to
deny any medication or treatment. Are they forcing you into therapy?

Psychotherapy attempts a transference of the patient's earliest emotional
affect-objects "at" the (Freudian) psychotherapist. (Almost) all other
types of psychiatric therapy avoids transferences, "at" the therapist, of
a patients affect-objects. Following the successful transference, a
countertransference of projection of the patient's affect objects is
attempted. A countertransference is the Freudian psychologist's
interpretation of the patient's transference, projected back at the
patient. This is an extremely involved process that is more of an art form
than a science. The projection of the interpretation can take the form of
subtle psychological manipulations on the part of the psychoanalyst. It
can also be involve an explanation of what has occurred, that is given to
the patient in terms he or she can understand. But an autistic's
affect-objects are in an autistic state, and if an autistic has a
transference, their psyche is "awoken" from its prenatal state, and a
psychotic episode ensues.

So now I am "stuck" between the autistic and neurotypical "worlds," and
have psychotic symptoms with no underlying psychotic disorder. I have been
modeling the ontology, with my autistic-before and psychotic
neurotypical-after "snapshots of reality" serving as independent,
perspectives of reality. Having two distinct perspectives of reality gave
me the ability to inferentially model a metaphysical reality (an ontology
is necessarily metaphysical). I understand that perceptions are antidotal
and highly suspect, so I did not permit my "snapshots of reality" to
influence the synthesis of the model. However, having perceived such
extreme perspectives of reality, I did not dismiss the final model on the
basis of its infinite, Platonic, extensibility. The metaphysics of reality
is Platonistic (it is Wheeler's pre-geometry), the model is synthetic, and
I am psychotic, so to say the least, it is going to be difficult to gain
academic concurrence that the model is valid.

This is abstract from the paper "A Platonic delusion: the identification
of psychosis and mysticism" by Daren Kemp:

"This paper discusses the frequently-made claim that psychosis and
mysticism are identifiable. Noting the failure of attempts by others to
define psychosis and mysticism, I present what I call the
symptomatological case for identifying them, hoping in this way to give an
idea of their essential features. More general observations about the
theoretical nature of the relationship between mental health and religion
are made which might indicate an identification of psychosis and
mysticism. It is then claimed that the idea of the identification often
derives, though at times unconsciously, from an outmoded Platonic model. A
short sketch of the intellectual history of the identification is
presented. Finally, a more plausible basis for comparing psychosis and
mysticism is offered, based on similar sociological origins or individual
psychodynamic factors, before concluding that a fundamental difference in
the conceptual status of psychosis as an illness and mysticism as a valued
state of consciousness a priori precludes their identification."

Empiricism is philosophic metaphysical doctrine, not scientific fact. The
pre-geometry is Platonism, and it is only inferable by examining
archetypes, self-similarities and recapitulations of an ontologically
normalizable reality, and it is not deductible by means of empirical
reductionism alone. Inference of the ontological pre-geometry is the only
means of discovering reality is metaphysical, but from this conceptual
model a mathematical model can be derived; hence empirical reduction and
logical deduction, alone, are insufficient for discovering the ontology.
The philosophy of science is so intent to "prove" empiricism by deriving a
mathematical model of reality (i.e., a TOE) from only empirical reduction,
that skepticism of the doctrines of the philosophy of science and
mathematics is presently unacceptable within academia. Science must
compromise in this case only, and meet metaphysics half-way. This
compromise is not only important for academia, but for civilization as
well.

In this modern day-and-age, inferences concerning reality that cannot by
empirically falsified, are assumed to be delusional. While I am not
claiming accounts given by psychiatric patients are accurate, rather the
accounts for many categories of delusions are a metaphysical
misperceptions of actual archetypes, synchronicities and teleological
entrainments. It is controlling of science to dismiss atypical perceptions
as meaningless, only on the basis of the lack of scientific accounts for
the modality of atypical perceptions. Many delusions (e.g., a Platonic
delusion) are diagnosed solely based upon their conflicting with the
philosophical doctrine held by psychiatrists, but psychiatry (mostly)
employs pre-Einsteinian physics as its empirical foundation. That is due
to relativistic and quantum mechanical models shed little additional light
upon phenomenology. The reason for this is, relativistic and quantum
mechanics requires phenomenological integration from a starting point of a
conceptual metaphysical model of the ontology.

The unconstrained feedback of philosophical doctrines between science and
the philosophy of science has created a religion, scientism, where many
scientists now lack skepticism of the direct implementation of doctrine(s)
as premise(s) of many scientific theories. Many scientists also believe in
scientific infallibility. Not only do I face the problem of convincing
very intelligent people that they are wrong on many important matters, and
the intellectual tools and methods they are employing are inadequate to
fully describe reality, I also must commit heresy against scientism, and
single handedly destroy an unorganized religion with many millions of
believers. Science has done nothing to investigate accounts for
theological and ontological claims of individuals that are labeled as
psychotic. With all of the abuse organized religions gets from science and
academia, in the present day, organized religions have been much more open
to scientific examination of religion, than science has been to organized
religions investigation of science.

Please ponder: "A Platonic delusion." The only reason that Daren Kemp
labeled Platonism a delusion is that it contradicts his religious belief
that reality is non-Platonic. Absence of evidence is not evidence of
absence! It is arrogant and ignorant for so many scientist to dismiss all
contradictory philosophical doctrines as being of no practical value or
meaning -- scientists should know better! If I were to conjecture why this
is, it is so a TOE could be discovered by science, and science (and
mathematics) alone would get the credit for discovering the nature of
reality. If you asked a theoretical physicist "could reality be Platonic?"
most would say it is highly unlikely, but remotely possible, and he or she
would be unable to fully consider all of the immense societal ramification
if someone discovered that reality is Platonic.

I have written a document called "A Model of Reality" and have given it to
some of the doctors that treat me. They looked at it, but their sanity
does not let them consider that a psychotic has discovered that "things
are not as they seem," even if it is the most likely way this discovery
would be made. If you would like to read it:
http://www.metaspec.org/onto/Doh.pdf
It is very superficial and psychosocial-centric. Words of wisdom
concerning what I should do next, would be appreciated.

Also, there are many ancillary issues I did not cover in Doh.pdf. Please
read:
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html
for indirect support of some of the arguments in Doh.pdf. It is going to
be, at least, a couple of weeks before I have technically detailed model
of the ontology written. Eventually, I need help with disseminating the
model, and having it reviewed, but obviously first I need to convince
others of the viability of the model, so any feedback on how best to
present it, would also be appreciated.


.

User: "Dirk Van de moortel"

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 10 Jan 2006 07:32:26 AM
"kogs" <nomail@nomail.nom> wrote in message news:ksOwf.57858$q%.6672@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
[snip unread]

Also, there are many ancillary issues I did not cover in Doh.pdf. Please
read:
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html
for indirect support of some of the arguments in Doh.pdf. It is going to be,
at least, a couple of weeks before I have technically detailed model of the
ontology written. Eventually, I need help with disseminating the model, and
having it reviewed, but obviously first I need to convince others of the
viability of the model, so any feedback on how best to present it, would
also be appreciated.

Alas for you, some of us know about this:
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/
| This is the original "parody" article, published in Social
| Text #46/47, pp. 217-252 (spring/summer 1996).
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/pt_v5.pdf
Nice try though ;-)
Dirk Vdm
.
User: "kogs"

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 10 Jan 2006 04:53:59 PM
"Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:43c3b77b$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com...


"kogs" <nomail@nomail.nom> wrote in message
news:ksOwf.57858$q%.6672@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...

[snip unread]

Also, there are many ancillary issues I did not cover in Doh.pdf. Please
read:
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html
for indirect support of some of the arguments in Doh.pdf. It is going to
be,
at least, a couple of weeks before I have technically detailed model of
the
ontology written. Eventually, I need help with disseminating the model,
and
having it reviewed, but obviously first I need to convince others of the
viability of the model, so any feedback on how best to present it, would
also be appreciated.


Alas for you, some of us know about this:
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/
| This is the original "parody" article, published in Social
| Text #46/47, pp. 217-252 (spring/summer 1996).
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/pt_v5.pdf
Nice try though ;-)

Dirk Vdm


Thanks dude, I owe you one.
.
User: "kogs"

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 11 Jan 2006 02:09:52 AM
"kogs" <nomail@nomail.nom> wrote in message
news:bWWwf.49565$BZ5.6535@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...

"Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:43c3b77b$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com...


"kogs" <nomail@nomail.nom> wrote in message
news:ksOwf.57858$q%.6672@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...

[snip unread]

Also, there are many ancillary issues I did not cover in Doh.pdf. Please
read:
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html
for indirect support of some of the arguments in Doh.pdf. It is going to
be,
at least, a couple of weeks before I have technically detailed model of
the
ontology written. Eventually, I need help with disseminating the model,
and
having it reviewed, but obviously first I need to convince others of the
viability of the model, so any feedback on how best to present it, would
also be appreciated.


Alas for you, some of us know about this:
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/
| This is the original "parody" article, published in Social
| Text #46/47, pp. 217-252 (spring/summer 1996).
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/pt_v5.pdf
Nice try though ;-)

Dirk Vdm



Thanks dude, I owe you one.

(For the link.)



I do not mean to offer unwarranted criticism, but your "[snip unread]" makes
little sense to me. I stated that the link (I included) contained "many
ancillary issues," so why would you not have read the rest of the email (or
Doh.pdf?) ? I think you might be "too hip" for me and I cannot tell if "Nice
try though ;-)" implies sarcasm or cynicism. Many of Sokal's ideas seem
primitive and underdeveloped to me, and I do not know if you concur that
some of his ideas are kinda lame, or if you presume that there is nothing
new to contribute to his ideas. You know what, I am "pretty hip" myself, but
I get the feeling that you are "way hipper" than I am -- as a matter of
course, I am not expecting a decipherable response to this last conjecture.
Thanks anyway though (-;.
.
User: "Dirk Van de moortel"

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 11 Jan 2006 04:22:26 AM
"kogs" <nomail@nomail.nom> wrote in message news:k33xf.26497$UF3.2657@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...

"kogs" <nomail@nomail.nom> wrote in message
news:bWWwf.49565$BZ5.6535@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...

"Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:43c3b77b$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com...


"kogs" <nomail@nomail.nom> wrote in message
news:ksOwf.57858$q%.6672@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...

[snip unread]

Also, there are many ancillary issues I did not cover in Doh.pdf. Please
read:
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html
for indirect support of some of the arguments in Doh.pdf. It is going to
be,
at least, a couple of weeks before I have technically detailed model of
the
ontology written. Eventually, I need help with disseminating the model,
and
having it reviewed, but obviously first I need to convince others of the
viability of the model, so any feedback on how best to present it, would
also be appreciated.


Alas for you, some of us know about this:
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/
| This is the original "parody" article, published in Social
| Text #46/47, pp. 217-252 (spring/summer 1996).
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/pt_v5.pdf
Nice try though ;-)

Dirk Vdm



Thanks dude, I owe you one.

(For the link.)




I do not mean to offer unwarranted criticism, but your "[snip unread]" makes
little sense to me. I stated that the link (I included) contained "many
ancillary issues," so why would you not have read the rest of the email (or
Doh.pdf?) ?

The answer lies in the part I did not snip unread.
Consider this to be an exercise.

I think you might be "too hip" for me and I cannot tell if "Nice
try though ;-)" implies sarcasm or cynicism. Many of Sokal's ideas seem
primitive and underdeveloped to me, and I do not know if you concur that
some of his ideas are kinda lame, or if you presume that there is nothing
new to contribute to his ideas. You know what, I am "pretty hip" myself, but
I get the feeling that you are "way hipper" than I am -- as a matter of
course, I am not expecting a decipherable response to this last conjecture.

Thanks anyway though (-;.

Another nice try - but still no cigar :-)
Dirk Vdm
.
User: "kogs"

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 11 Jan 2006 04:35:35 AM
"Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:C%4xf.93597$KT6.6167599@phobos.telenet-ops.be...


"kogs" <nomail@nomail.nom> wrote in message
news:k33xf.26497$UF3.2657@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...

"kogs" <nomail@nomail.nom> wrote in message
news:bWWwf.49565$BZ5.6535@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...

"Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com>
wrote
in message news:43c3b77b$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com...


"kogs" <nomail@nomail.nom> wrote in message
news:ksOwf.57858$q%.6672@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...

[snip unread]

Also, there are many ancillary issues I did not cover in Doh.pdf.
Please
read:
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html
for indirect support of some of the arguments in Doh.pdf. It is going
to
be,
at least, a couple of weeks before I have technically detailed model
of
the
ontology written. Eventually, I need help with disseminating the
model,
and
having it reviewed, but obviously first I need to convince others of
the
viability of the model, so any feedback on how best to present it,
would
also be appreciated.


Alas for you, some of us know about this:
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/
| This is the original "parody" article, published in Social
| Text #46/47, pp. 217-252 (spring/summer 1996).
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/pt_v5.pdf
Nice try though ;-)

Dirk Vdm



Thanks dude, I owe you one.

(For the link.)




I do not mean to offer unwarranted criticism, but your "[snip unread]"
makes
little sense to me. I stated that the link (I included) contained "many
ancillary issues," so why would you not have read the rest of the email
(or
Doh.pdf?) ?


The answer lies in the part I did not snip unread.
Consider this to be an exercise.

I think you might be "too hip" for me and I cannot tell if "Nice
try though ;-)" implies sarcasm or cynicism. Many of Sokal's ideas seem
primitive and underdeveloped to me, and I do not know if you concur that
some of his ideas are kinda lame, or if you presume that there is nothing
new to contribute to his ideas. You know what, I am "pretty hip" myself,
but
I get the feeling that you are "way hipper" than I am -- as a matter of
course, I am not expecting a decipherable response to this last
conjecture.

Thanks anyway though (-;.


Another nice try - but still no cigar :-)

Dirk Vdm


But I did get a response from you; still woe is me, you have proven yourself
"hipper" than I ;-).
.





User: "charles"

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 18 Jan 2006 12:19:14 PM
Are you writing primarily for the benefit of academics, or are you
writing to communicate? If it is the former, then I can understand
your using terms to impress because the academic community is snobbish
and looks down on clear English.
Otherwise, you don't need words such as "ontology,"
psychosocial-centric," eurotypical," (normal) "disseminating" (passing
on) etc. The concepts behind them are clearer if normal, everyday words
are used. Let me show you what I mean. The following is from the
Appendix of word tricks you can find in
http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
and used by social scientists (I describe 21 of them!). This quote
shows all the different words they use for, of all things, "religion"!:
"social scientists write about "prime symbols," "form-worlds of great
myth," "oversimplified diagrammatic formulas," "socio-cultural
phenomenon," and "mythical configurations." So many words for a single
concept serve only to confuse the concept's meaning. This is useful
to social science theorists because a lack of a clear meaning makes the
concept all the more easily manipulated and made to serve our secular
and religious ideals. Some of the other "religion" substitute-words are
"ideological system," "theo-linguistic sociology," "system of meaning,"
"tacit theory of the world," "mythological and magical tradition" and
"integrated symbolic system." Academics have also used "oral
tradition"-as well as "communal mind" and even "oversimplified
diagrammatic formula." Karl Mannerheim used "internal unity of a
world-view" and the "collective unconscious." Besides "belief system,"
other social scientists have used "folklore," "popular movement," and
even "vital lies and illusions!"
While at the website, you might take a look at the Glossary. As you
probably know, social science terms mostly all have many meanings.
This sloppy practice exists in no field of science (unless you call the
social sciences "science"). The terms there have only one meaning.
That is why it is the Social Science Underground.
charles
.

User: "Daren Kemp"

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 19 Jan 2006 03:39:30 AM
Dear Kogs,
If you would like a copy of my paper, "A Platonic delusion: the
identification of psychosis and mysticism", please send your contact
details to me at daren.kemp@christaquarian.net.
Your assumption about my rejection of the whole of Platonism is
unfounded - the title a "Platonic delusion" refers only to the idea
that psychosis and mysticism are identical states of consciousness.
You may also be interested in the support network for mental health
issues with a spiritual element, that is being launched at
www.spiritualcrisisnetwork.org.uk
Yours,
Dr Daren Kemp
.
User: "kogs"

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 19 Jan 2006 10:13:04 AM
"Daren Kemp" <darenkemp@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137663570.150858.221250@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Dear Kogs,

If you would like a copy of my paper, "A Platonic delusion: the
identification of psychosis and mysticism", please send your contact
details to me at daren.kemp@christaquarian.net.

Your assumption about my rejection of the whole of Platonism is
unfounded - the title a "Platonic delusion" refers only to the idea
that psychosis and mysticism are identical states of consciousness.

You may also be interested in the support network for mental health
issues with a spiritual element, that is being launched at
www.spiritualcrisisnetwork.org.uk

Yours,
Dr Daren Kemp

I am sorry for being so rude by my misinterpretation of the abstract of your
paper. It obviously took much experience and knowledge in order to write
that paper, and it was wrong for myself to employ the abstract in order to
make my point, without first reading your paper. My Usenet rudeness is part
of a larger "Freudian catharses strategy" that I am employing in order to
complete my mission to model reality and communicate the model to others. My
mission is to alert people to the fact that psychosis is the "natural" state
of being while sanity is a delusion, or rather a facade/charade, that people
must employ in order to prevent knowing the terrifying truth about reality.
I need to start this posting by defining some terminology.
------
A brief glossary of terms:
Self- : The unattached participle "this" is the lexis-nexus of
self-referential infinite descent to the of emergence of the pregeometry's
fractal point of origin.
Mind's blind spot : The phenomenological "center" of a conscious self- that
is only perceivable in a cationic state; hence the mind's blind spot is
unperceivable.
Self-trepidation : The fear of a psychotic episode that protects the mind's
blind spot, but leads to many social ills as it creates the
affect-self-object and splits and projects the bad affect-object at others
and the good affect-object at self- . Freudian spitting and projection is a
self-similarity affect of quantum mechanical decoherence. Also, the
psychosocial affect of self-trepidation is the sanity delusion.
Sanity delusion: The delusion that oneself is sane, and not psychotic. The
sanity delusion crates wars, racism and nationalism at the psychosocial
level. Due to everyone's reality being a "holographic view" of reality, one
perceives their metaphysical reality as real; hence everyone has the
delusion that they are sane. The sanity delusion accounts for how to
societies can hold contrary doctrines, and opposing worldviews, and deny the
other society's doctrine or worldview has any validity whatsoever, while
missing the apparent self-contradiction. I am trying to repair this
incoherence, by introducing a doctrineless, accurate, ontological model of
the metaphysical reality that is self-common to everyone whom is conscious
and perceiving.
------
The problem I now face is, I needed to worsen my psychotic symptoms in order
to model reality, and I cannot deny that I am psychotic because the model
shows that everyone is psychotic and has the sanity delusion, including
myself. My psychiatrists convinced me that I was insane, but all that served
to do was create a new delusion, where I had the delusion of not having the
sanity delusion. Shortly after modeling reality, I realized that I had both
the sanity delusion and the insanity delusion -- it is a total qubit-wash.
The bifurcation of psychosis into sanity/insanity is a discriminatory
judgment of perceptions, as person with psychotic symptoms are disassociated
from this Cosmos, and they are perceiving this Cosmos "from afar."
When someone who has a psychotic episode, their phenomenology dissociates
from this Cosmos, but they still believe that their reality is real and that
they are sane (unless a doctor convinces them otherwise). Person with
psychotic symptoms are not "dissociated from reality," their phenomenology
has become holographically "ungrounded" from this Cosmos. The term
"dissociated from reality" is empirically discriminatory as it empiricism
presumes that there is no metaphysical "self-", and that phenomenological
consciousness is located in a neurological correlate within this Cosmos. So
someone perceiving the depersonalization and derealization of a psychotic
episode is dissociated from this Cosmos, and their phenomenological mind's
blind spot is dysfunctional; hence they are unable to properly decohere the
surface of spacetime but they are still perceiving the metaphysical reality.
There is a strong indication that psychosis is purely a metaphysical
concern, as psychiatry often employs the word reality. Reality, and what is
real, is a purely metaphysical topic, that does not directly concern
science -- it is philosophies and religions business, and science should not
be making existential claims as to what is real and what is unreal/not real.
Psychosis, and judging what is real, are not concern that science should
have dealings with -- science only deals with what is existential.
I understand, it is difficult to accept a psychotic software engineer could
have modeled reality, but if reality is metaphysical, who better could do
it? I also realize the unpopularity of neo-Freudian psychology, but the core
concepts of its model are very accurate if you extent Eigen's psychotic core
theory, to every one having a psychotic core and a psychosocial layering to
psychotic cores. Psychotic cores are "concentrated around" societal doctrine
in order to protect the psychosocial psychotic cores (e.g., liberalism,
Christianity, atheism) from being exposed, and from others pointing out the
obvious self-contradictions in holding doctrine. This self-denial works
exactly like a personal psychotic core does. The model of reality shows that
everyone has a psychotic core, even the sanest of people, and the saner the
person the more firmly they must hold onto their doctrine in order to
prevent a psychotic episode. If you would like an approximate aggregate of
the psychological-end of model of reality (written by Eigen) it is at:
http://psychematters.com/papers/eigen5.htm
The terror of realizing the nature of reality can be reduced from a
psychotic episode inducing terror, to a momentary, but still drastic,
epiphany, but if the person has access to the appropriate support system,
with a model of reality, in place for them to deal with realizing the
infinite closeness of what is best, and possibly accurately, described as)
God. I am trying to advance the model as quietly as possible (but as
misfortune dictates...) in order to have these support systems in place
prior to the public disseminations of the model. Sanity is created by
self-trepidation, which projects a person's sanity inward at their (Eigen)
self-object-affect by creating (my own wording) the mind's blind spot
surrounding and protecting "self-". "Self-" is the "beginning and end" of
the fractal Platonism expansion that pre-/post-dates the big bang. The form
of this metaphysical surface is a Kline bottle topology of the (Wheeler)
(geometrodynamical) pregeometry of general relativistic mechanics. The
fractal-holographic Platonism expansion is responsible for the
anthropocentric self-organization of reality.
See the diagram:
http://www.metaspec.org/preg.pdf
The mind's blind spot is a quantum mechanical protection that prevents a
person from perceiving a "now." Perceiving "now" or self-, leads to
self-recurrent psychotic episodes, regressive psychosis and if the
perception do not cease, to self-(-)induced catatonia . The mind's blind
spot protects a person from regressive psychosis. Regressive psychosis is
self-recurrent quantum mechanical decoherence of the geometrodynamical
topology of spacetime. The metaphysical surface "underlying" spacetime has
the topology of a Klein bottle. A Klein bottle cannot embed into a 3D-space
as the Platonism of the pregeometry is a 4D-Klein bottle; hence the Klein
bottle geometrodynamical topology accounts for the 3D-space+1D-past nature
of this Cosmos. Accounting for regressive psychosis' progression into
catatonia is, a phenomenological failure of the quantum mechanical
decoherence of spacetime (i.e., 3D-space+1D-past) created by, and then
self-worsened from, repeated failures of the mind's blind spot.
Self-trepidation is the "next layer-up of quantum protection" and it
prevents a person for inferring the anthropocentric self-organization of
reality. From my own holographic-perspective the organization of reality
look like.
http://www.metaspec.org/myview.pdf
The boxed items (in the above myvirw.pdf) are all societal bifurcation
points of injudicious and discrimination. I am trying alert others to the
sanity delusion so they can begin to repair the damage to the world that
lead to my modeling reality -- the same model that I have recently conceived
and am now trying to communicate to you. The reason for these societal
bifurcation points is self-trepidation, the sanity delusion and that
psychosocial psychotic cores create doctrine around these points in order to
disguise them so no one (other than me) was able to infer the
"connect-the-dots" in the anthropocentric "puzzle of reality." I do not
(yet) have a mathematical-type proof I can hand to someone showing it is
true that I have modeled reality, so I hope that someone who is intelligent
has some remaining induction skills left, trusts their inferences, and says
to themselves "this guy is crazy, but the model sure answers an awful lot of
questions," and investigates it further. I realize, it is going to take a
considerable amount of time before anyone is comfortable with who modeled
reality and how it was modeled, but the model is solid.
As far as your suggestion that a support system can help me, while you are
correct a support system would help, presently there is no mental health
support system available for me, but I am working on creating one for myself
and everyone else. I am so far past help it is terrifying. And by "far past"
I refer to far past the present knowledge of psychology, or more precisely
the phenomenology of psychotic symptoms. While the knowledge I have accrued
by modeling reality could be employed to help me cope with my psychosis, I
am afraid I have destroyed so much of my phenomenology in order to model the
ontology that I can never recover from my present regressive, recurrent,
psychosis. But thank you for the link.
I shall follow this posting with an email to you.
.
User: "charles"

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 19 Jan 2006 11:56:42 AM
Kogs,
Are you sure you are in the right group? This is a SOCIOLOGY group,
not a psychiatry, mental health or counceling group. Sociology is
supposed to be a science, not a department of Freudian Mysticism. It
is supposed to deal with society (although it actually deals only with
groups)---not the individual and his problems. We here are really not
equipped to deal constructively with you. You are not here to impress
us, and perhaps I am just projecting on you my own insanity, and am
jealouse of your voluminous academic masterpieces of double talk, but
all that is because you are in the wrong group!
charles
.
User: "kogs"

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 19 Jan 2006 03:12:39 PM
"charles" <charlesbrough1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137693402.246108.68890@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Kogs,

Are you sure you are in the right group? This is a SOCIOLOGY group,
not a psychiatry, mental health or counceling group. Sociology is
supposed to be a science, not a department of Freudian Mysticism. It
is supposed to deal with society (although it actually deals only with
groups)---not the individual and his problems. We here are really not
equipped to deal constructively with you. You are not here to impress
us, and perhaps I am just projecting on you my own insanity, and am
jealouse of your voluminous academic masterpieces of double talk, but
all that is because you are in the wrong group!

charles

If you have not read my posting(s) in its entirety, it concern sociology, as
well as psychology, metaphysics and physics. And do not worry so much about
me, and what I am doing. I can take care of myself, and do for myself.
.




User: "Oh My"

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 29 Jan 2006 03:36:01 AM
I look where you posted. I look what you say. I smell troll.
kogs wrote:

It is as difficult for neurotypicals (i.e. "normal folks") to empathize with
autistics, as it is for autistics to empathize with neurotypicals. How an
autistic perceives reality is, in many respects, different from how a
neurotypical perceives reality. I have Aspeger syndrome, which is almost
identical to autism. I had a sudden onset reactive psychotic episode a few
years ago, and now I have psychotic symptoms with no underlying psychotic
disorder. My psychotic episode, in part, resulted from seventeen years of
Freudian psychotherapy. Prior my psychotic episode, I had no idea how
dangerous and futile it was to perform (Freudian) psychotherapy on an
autistic.

Psychotherapy attempts a transference of the patient's earliest emotional
affect-objects "at" the (Freudian) psychotherapist. (Almost) all other types
of psychiatric therapy avoids transferences, "at" the therapist, of a
patients affect-objects. Following the successful transference, a
countertransference of projection of the patient's affect objects is
attempted. A countertransference is the Freudian psychologist's
interpretation of the patient's transference, projected back at the patient.
This is an extremely involved process that is more of an art form than a
science. The projection of the interpretation can take the form of subtle
psychological manipulations on the part of the psychoanalyst. It can also be
involve an explanation of what has occurred, that is given to the patient in
terms he or she can understand. But an autistic's affect-objects are in an
autistic state, and if an autistic has a transference, their psyche is
"awoken" from its prenatal state, and a psychotic episode ensues.

So now I am "stuck" between the autistic and neurotypical "worlds," and have
psychotic symptoms with no underlying psychotic disorder. I have been
modeling the ontology, with my autistic-before and psychotic
neurotypical-after "snapshots of reality" serving as independent,
perspectives of reality. Having two distinct perspectives of reality gave me
the ability to inferentially model a metaphysical reality (an ontology is
necessarily metaphysical). I understand that perceptions are antidotal and
highly suspect, so I did not permit my "snapshots of reality" to influence
the synthesis of the model. However, having perceived such extreme
perspectives of reality, I did not dismiss the final model on the basis of
its infinite, Platonic, extensibility. The metaphysics of reality is
Platonistic (it is Wheeler's pre-geometry), the model is synthetic, and I am
psychotic, so to say the least, it is going to be difficult to gain academic
concurrence that the model is valid.

This is abstract from the paper "A Platonic delusion: the identification of
psychosis and mysticism" by Daren Kemp:

"This paper discusses the frequently-made claim that psychosis and mysticism
are identifiable. Noting the failure of attempts by others to define
psychosis and mysticism, I present what I call the symptomatological case
for identifying them, hoping in this way to give an idea of their essential
features. More general observations about the theoretical nature of the
relationship between mental health and religion are made which might
indicate an identification of psychosis and mysticism. It is then claimed
that the idea of the identification often derives, though at times
unconsciously, from an outmoded Platonic model. A short sketch of the
intellectual history of the identification is presented. Finally, a more
plausible basis for comparing psychosis and mysticism is offered, based on
similar sociological origins or individual psychodynamic factors, before
concluding that a fundamental difference in the conceptual status of
psychosis as an illness and mysticism as a valued state of consciousness a
priori precludes their identification."

Empiricism is philosophic metaphysical doctrine, not scientific fact. The
pre-geometry is Platonism, and it is only inferable by examining archetypes,
self-similarities and recapitulations of an ontologically normalizable
reality, and it is not deductible by means of empirical reductionism alone.
Inference of the ontological pre-geometry is the only means of discovering
reality is metaphysical, but from this conceptual model a mathematical model
can be derived; hence empirical reduction and logical deduction, alone, are
insufficient for discovering the ontology. The philosophy of science is so
intent to "prove" empiricism by deriving a mathematical model of reality
(i.e., a TOE) from only empirical reduction, that skepticism of the
doctrines of the philosophy of science and mathematics is presently
unacceptable within academia. Science must compromise in this case only, and
meet metaphysics half-way. This compromise is not only important for
academia, but for civilization as well.

In this modern day-and-age, inferences concerning reality that cannot by
empirically falsified, are assumed to be delusional. While I am not claiming
accounts given by psychiatric patients are accurate, rather the accounts for
many categories of delusions are a metaphysical misperceptions of actual
archetypes, synchronicities and teleological entrainments. It is controlling
of science to dismiss atypical perceptions as meaningless, only on the basis
of the lack of scientific accounts for the modality of atypical perceptions.
Many delusions (e.g., a Platonic delusion) are diagnosed solely based upon
their conflicting with the philosophical doctrine held by psychiatrists, but
psychiatry (mostly) employs pre-Einsteinian physics as its empirical
foundation. That is due to relativistic and quantum mechanical models shed
little additional light upon phenomenology. The reason for this is,
relativistic and quantum mechanics requires phenomenological integration
from a starting point of a conceptual metaphysical model of the ontology.

The unconstrained feedback of philosophical doctrines between science and
the philosophy of science has created a religion, scientism, where many
scientists now lack skepticism of the direct implementation of doctrine(s)
as premise(s) of many scientific theories. Many scientists also believe in
scientific infallibility. Not only do I face the problem of convincing very
intelligent people that they are wrong on many important matters, and the
intellectual tools and methods they are employing are inadequate to fully
describe reality, I also must commit heresy against scientism, and single
handedly destroy an unorganized religion with many millions of believers.
Science has done nothing to investigate accounts for theological and
ontological claims of individuals that are labeled as psychotic. With all of
the abuse organized religions gets from science and academia, in the present
day, organized religions have been much more open to scientific examination
of religion, than science has been to organized religions investigation of
science.

Please ponder: "A Platonic delusion." The only reason that Daren Kemp
labeled Platonism a delusion is that it contradicts his religious belief
that reality is non-Platonic. Absence of evidence is not evidence of
absence! It is arrogant and ignorant for so many scientist to dismiss all
contradictory philosophical doctrines as being of no practical value or
meaning -- scientists should know better! If I were to conjecture why this
is, it is so a TOE could be discovered by science, and science (and
mathematics) alone would get the credit for discovering the nature of
reality. If you asked a theoretical physicist "could reality be Platonic?"
most would say it is highly unlikely, but remotely possible, and he or she
would be unable to fully consider all of the immense societal ramification
if someone discovered that reality is Platonic.

I have written a document called "A Model of Reality" and have given it to
some of the doctors that treat me. They looked at it, but their sanity does
not let them consider that a psychotic has discovered that "things are not
as they seem," even if it is the most likely way this discovery would be
made. If you would like to read it:
http://www.metaspec.org/onto/Doh.pdf
It is very superficial and psychosocial-centric. Words of wisdom concerning
what I should do next, would be appreciated.

Also, there are many ancillary issues I did not cover in Doh.pdf. Please
read:
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html
for indirect support of some of the arguments in Doh.pdf. It is going to be,
at least, a couple of weeks before I have technically detailed model of the
ontology written. Eventually, I need help with disseminating the model, and
having it reviewed, but obviously first I need to convince others of the
viability of the model, so any feedback on how best to present it, would
also be appreciated.

.
User: ""

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 29 Jan 2006 04:56:44 AM
One man's troll is another man's General Systems Thinker.
.


User: ""

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 11 Jan 2006 04:49:38 AM
kogs skrev:

It is as difficult for neurotypicals (i.e. "normal folks") to empathize with
autistics, as it is for autistics to empathize with neurotypicals. How an
autistic perceives reality is, in many respects, different from how a
neurotypical perceives reality. I have Aspeger syndrome, which is almost
identical to autism.

Sure. The psychiatrists have very little awareness that there model of
reality is old, culturally bound, serves psychological purposes that
suit their personal needs and are not universal, and, my own addition,
tend towards a wariness of and urge to control emotions. Given that
you have/are Asperger's they must provide you with an odd, distorted
mirror. But it seems to me you are going about a defense of yourself
and your predicament via the mind. It seems much more important to me
to ground the gap that separates you and them and you and normals in
interpersonal and emotional terms. How do you feel about their
treatment/ideas about you? How do you show this? What do you want
from you contacts with the psych community? Asperger's tends to
create/be an inability to connect to the emotions of others. ONe can
train to read cues, to do what comes instinctively and directly to non-
Asperger's people. And I am sure this can be useful. But it is also
heady and avoids the very emotional predicament which is the root of
the situation (not the cause). How does it feel to be isolated in this
way? Are there moments of breakthrough? How did these occur? And so
on.
I don't believe the philosophical debate will not cross the divide,
however much I agree with what you are saying.
.
User: "kogs"

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 11 Jan 2006 05:18:00 AM
<downinthefolds@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136976577.959201.327630@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


kogs skrev:

It is as difficult for neurotypicals (i.e. "normal folks") to empathize
with
autistics, as it is for autistics to empathize with neurotypicals. How an
autistic perceives reality is, in many respects, different from how a
neurotypical perceives reality. I have Aspeger syndrome, which is almost
identical to autism.


Sure. The psychiatrists have very little awareness that there model of
reality is old, culturally bound, serves psychological purposes that
suit their personal needs and are not universal, and, my own addition,
tend towards a wariness of and urge to control emotions. Given that
you have/are Asperger's they must provide you with an odd, distorted
mirror. But it seems to me you are going about a defense of yourself
and your predicament via the mind. It seems much more important to me
to ground the gap that separates you and them and you and normals in
interpersonal and emotional terms. How do you feel about their
treatment/ideas about you? How do you show this? What do you want
from you contacts with the psych community? Asperger's tends to
create/be an inability to connect to the emotions of others. ONe can
train to read cues, to do what comes instinctively and directly to non-
Asperger's people. And I am sure this can be useful. But it is also
heady and avoids the very emotional predicament which is the root of
the situation (not the cause). How does it feel to be isolated in this
way? Are there moments of breakthrough? How did these occur? And so
on.
I don't believe the philosophical debate will not cross the divide,
however much I agree with what you are saying.

Thank you for your words of encouragement and advice; and also for
recognizing that I am attempting a counter-countertransference (even if you
never have heard of countertransference, nice call). My psychosis was of the
type where I am now stuck in the netherworld between autistic and
neurotypical; that is a long story, but if you keep reading my postings you
can get a picture of how closely tied my psychosis is to neo-Freudianism
(e.g., countertransference). All I know is if I can manage a
counter-countertransference, I sure hope there are lots of free hospital
beds with restraints, and a surplus of Haldol and Thorizene on hand, at the
time. It is going to be a train wreck trying to discriminate between inmates
and caregivers, and figuring out which side of the (instantly Klein
bottle-ized) asylum wall is the outside -- if I am successful that is. If I
had a choice I would not be doing this, but it is going to happen sooner or
later, and the sooner the less chaotic it is going to be.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 11 Jan 2006 07:11:07 AM
OK. If this is true your life is surely not one to be envied. If it's
creative writing, welcome to the vast wasteland of Usenet.
.

User: ""

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 13 Jan 2006 10:23:49 AM
kogs wrote:

<downinthefolds@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Thank you for your words of encouragement and advice; and also for
recognizing that I am attempting a counter-countertransference (even if you
never have heard of countertransference, nice call). My psychosis was of the
type where I am now stuck in the netherworld between autistic and
neurotypical; that is a long story, but if you keep reading my postings you
can get a picture of how closely tied my psychosis is to neo-Freudianism
(e.g., countertransference). All I know is if I can manage a
counter-countertransference, I sure hope there are lots of free hospital
beds with restraints, and a surplus of Haldol and Thorizene on hand, at the
time. It is going to be a train wreck trying to discriminate between inmates
and caregivers, and figuring out which side of the (instantly Klein
bottle-ized) asylum wall is the outside -- if I am successful that is. If I
had a choice I would not be doing this, but it is going to happen sooner or
later, and the sooner the less chaotic it is going to be.

Sounds like you almost yearn for catharsis in the presence of
psychiatrists and for them to suppress that. Your choice of course.
But it will be rather unpleasant. And whatever you bring up via
catharsis in what seems to me to be a rather reckless approach will
then be rapidly shoved down by drugs, denial, control, restrictions and
judgement. Is that what you want?
It is not a matter of figuring things out, though that can be a part.
It's about feeling better, or am I wrong. You want to battle it out
with the psychiatrists and prove that we are all mad. I assure you,
100%. You will not win this battle. They will frustrate you and
prescribe silence. Why not find an environment where the emotions that
come up around these issues has as much acceptance as possible? Why go
through something that probably will be quite painful in the presence
of those you need to battle, if only intellectually? (they are not
there to get enlightened. they will not be open. And then will either
openly or indirectly give you the impression you are wrong and your
feelings are misplaced? Those feelings will not integrate in that
battle. And why give yourself such a Hurculean task - battling them -
while you are going through a painful transition or integration? Why
not make things as easy for yourself as possible? Integrate, the later
when you are solid, go to battle. Why not find like minds or
counselors who are open to other paradigms and emotions?
It sounds like the Freudian analysis was an interpsonal contact,
however twisted - by FReud's ideas about the neutrality of the analyst,
by the power imbalance, etc. This intrusion of the interpersonal was
overwhelming and you had a break. Why not go through this process of
confronting the interpersonal with warm, loving, open people who will
not trigger you so fast and who will not be so threatened by catharsis?
(as an aside Freud's idea that neutrality, being a blank screen as the
analyst, being healing is sick and damaging. Imagine a mother who was
neutral in relation to her child's suffering, who interpreted her
child's transference, who gave information and insights instead of
love. Talk about rubbing ground glass in a wound. And psychiatrists
will do this too.)
Again, your choice.
Perhaps those emotions and much of what is troubling in you will have
to leave you and go somewhere else to really be accepted. and then you
will be a more empty shell. Less troubled no doubt and more hollow.
That may in fact be what you want.
What do you want? What would make you feel good?
.
User: "kogs"

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 13 Jan 2006 12:06:03 PM
<downinthefolds@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137169429.836117.233730@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


kogs wrote:

<downinthefolds@yahoo.com> wrote in message


Thank you for your words of encouragement and advice; and also for
recognizing that I am attempting a counter-countertransference (even if
you
never have heard of countertransference, nice call). My psychosis was of
the
type where I am now stuck in the netherworld between autistic and
neurotypical; that is a long story, but if you keep reading my postings
you
can get a picture of how closely tied my psychosis is to neo-Freudianism
(e.g., countertransference). All I know is if I can manage a
counter-countertransference, I sure hope there are lots of free hospital
beds with restraints, and a surplus of Haldol and Thorizene on hand, at
the
time. It is going to be a train wreck trying to discriminate between
inmates
and caregivers, and figuring out which side of the (instantly Klein
bottle-ized) asylum wall is the outside -- if I am successful that is. If
I
had a choice I would not be doing this, but it is going to happen sooner
or
later, and the sooner the less chaotic it is going to be.


Sounds like you almost yearn for catharsis in the presence of
psychiatrists and for them to suppress that. Your choice of course.
But it will be rather unpleasant. And whatever you bring up via
catharsis in what seems to me to be a rather reckless approach will
then be rapidly shoved down by drugs, denial, control, restrictions and
judgement. Is that what you want?

It is not a matter of figuring things out, though that can be a part.
It's about feeling better, or am I wrong. You want to battle it out
with the psychiatrists and prove that we are all mad. I assure you,
100%. You will not win this battle. They will frustrate you and
prescribe silence. Why not find an environment where the emotions that
come up around these issues has as much acceptance as possible? Why go
through something that probably will be quite painful in the presence
of those you need to battle, if only intellectually? (they are not
there to get enlightened. they will not be open. And then will either
openly or indirectly give you the impression you are wrong and your
feelings are misplaced? Those feelings will not integrate in that
battle. And why give yourself such a Hurculean task - battling them -
while you are going through a painful transition or integration? Why
not make things as easy for yourself as possible? Integrate, the later
when you are solid, go to battle. Why not find like minds or
counselors who are open to other paradigms and emotions?

It sounds like the Freudian analysis was an interpsonal contact,
however twisted - by FReud's ideas about the neutrality of the analyst,
by the power imbalance, etc. This intrusion of the interpersonal was
overwhelming and you had a break. Why not go through this process of
confronting the interpersonal with warm, loving, open people who will
not trigger you so fast and who will not be so threatened by catharsis?

(as an aside Freud's idea that neutrality, being a blank screen as the
analyst, being healing is sick and damaging. Imagine a mother who was
neutral in relation to her child's suffering, who interpreted her
child's transference, who gave information and insights instead of
love. Talk about rubbing ground glass in a wound. And psychiatrists
will do this too.)

Again, your choice.

Perhaps those emotions and much of what is troubling in you will have
to leave you and go somewhere else to really be accepted. and then you
will be a more empty shell. Less troubled no doubt and more hollow.
That may in fact be what you want.

What do you want? What would make you feel good?

(I am guessing that you are not a psychiatrist, but I am going to address
"you" as such in order to make my point, sorry if this is odd or angering,
but "you" is a generic psychiatrist, not you downinthefolds. Hey, by
"downinthefolds" do you mean brain "folds?" If you do then that is pretty
funny.)
I do agree with you that my job is a Herculean task, but what about the
sanity delusion? Can you not address my arguments, without committing the
logical fallacy of avoiding the subject by attacking the person? I realize
that psychiatrists are trained in this method, but can you not turn this off
for a moment, and enter into meaningful dialectic on the topic at hand? I
would not mind discussing this with "warm, loving, open people," but that is
of no matter to me. I am not the only one with a mental illness, psychiatry
suffers from the psychosocial disease of scientism (i.e., societal
empiricism).
Of course you are unable to self-diagnose scientism as a mental disease, or
likely even admit that you believe in scientism, let alone that scientism is
a mental plague upon humanity. Scientism is a psychosocial neurosis. You are
engrained into the sanity wall as a brick, by the lack collective
psychiatric insight on the part of psychiatry. How could a psychiatrist
self-referentially determine he or she has sanity delusion, let alone
discover it amidst the empirical circle-jerk that you are engaged in? The
only possible way to make some psychiatrist understand that they have the
sanity delusion is for some "outsider" to counter-countertransfer(ence) the
knowledge to them. I am going to be this outsider, even if I need to
circumvent yet another paradox, and force the ACLU to file a class action
lawsuit against the APA, on the behalf of persons that are psychotic, for
existential discrimination.
So back to my questions. Can you not realize that you have the sanity
delusion? Can you not see the destructive nature of this psychosocial
neurosis? Can you not accept that anyone other than a psychologist is
capable of discovering a class of psychosocial neurosis? I am not attacking
the person making the argument, I am trying to perform a
counter-countertransference to someone who is obviously mentally ill, and
does not realize it. So my use of fallacious arguments has the same intent
as your use. Everything you say about me, I already know. I understand the
extent of my mental illness, and have psychiatric insight into its negative
effects on me and those around me, but you do not have psychiatric insight
into your mental illness. My mentally illness is not the issue I am raising.
My mental illness is ancillary, but it you wish to continue the
projection-game, I cannot help you.
"What do you want?" To help mentally ill individuals like yourself, whom are
harming others and themselves.
"What would make you feel good?" To make you realize that you are mentally
ill, your illness is harming yourself and others, and to have your mental
illness heal on its own accord.
Funny huh? We have the same goals and objectives? Yes I am attempting a
Herculean task, but it is a worthwhile one. Does psychiatry have some sort
of priest-like stranglehold on these goals and objectives that I am unaware
of? If so, then please let me know so I can stop my attempts immediately.
Also, as far as my motives, I have the same motives as you: I want to help
people.
This is a repost a portion of a posting of mine, for you to (re)-read:
---
"Many mentally unstable patients must be segregated out from the rest of
society; I am not arguing that. But to dismiss someone's reality as unreal,
is the worst sort of prejudice there could be. How can reality be unreal? It
defies logic! (Actually it does defy logic, and that is the root of "the
problem"). This discrimination not only harms psychotics, it gives
psychiatrists (actually all scientist) god like power to dismiss a person's
entire being and reality as meaningless and unreal, simply because they are
unable to abide by empirical doctrine. How much more fucked-up can you get
than that (the scientific neurosis [of scientism])! If you cannot see that
it is necessary to take down the sanity wall, then you likely watched in
anger as other such wall of injustice were taken down."
---
Here is another excerpt from another posting of mine:
---
"There are many types of ontology. In its most general definition an
ontology is (per Gruber) "a specification of a conceptualization," or rather
a conceptual model of "something" that identifies entities within a domain
of "something," specifying the relationships between these entities. The
type of ontology I refer to is a domain independent ontology, and its
"something" is everything. The "everything ontology" is referred to as the
ontology (emphases on "the"). A model is an implementation (e.g., diagrams,
math, a written description) of an ontology of "something." Models are
synthetically conceived, and are not theoretic deductive discoveries. More
specifically to the model I have conceived is a model of the (domain
independent) ontology, of which there is obviously only one; hence the
"emphases on 'the' ". I have called my model of the ontology, the ontology
of everything (OOE).
For reason I cannot cover in this limited space, it is impossible to employ
axiomatic languages (e.g., mathematics, logic, axiomatic set theory) or
doctrine as the foundation of a domain independent ontology. So the
ontologist (e.g., the modeler) must employ self-reference for the foundation
of the model; similar to how a sculptor would take a blob of clay as his or
her foundation. In mathematics self-reference is called self-recursion, and
it is when a function includes itself, and an infinite descent (of the
function) occurs. Self-reference is employed in place of axioms and doctrine
in the OOE.
(I am going to make the quick, so if you cannot follow/infer let me know,
and I shall expand on it) I have a psychotic episode in September 2001. I am
still psychotic to this day. One of the reasons my psychotic episode has
lasted this long is I have purposefully worsened it, by following the
psychopathology of psychosis, that is, to model reality, it in order to
model reality. Reality was found identical to everything when I finally
conceived the model in December of last year. Another reason I needed to
worsen my psychosis was that I needed to cosmologically entrain.
Cosmological entrainment is another very complicated topic so I am not going
to cover it here (let me know if you cannot infer its meaning), but I needed
to cut myself off from society, and (far too)-basically let this Cosmos take
control of my subconscious, so I could ease into a state of total psychosis
(i.e., catatonia) where/when I could conceive the model.
This meditation-like strategy is acceptable in the far-East as a source of
knowledge and wisdom (Buddhist monks have employed it for centuries), but
there are many selfish, arrogant and asinine reasons for why science refutes
this sort of (in Western terminology) divine knowledge. Notice I said
"science refutes," and not "science does not employ." Science cannot, by the
definition of empiricism, employ or utilize divine knowledge, but there is a
real problem when science starts refuting contradictory methods of
accusation of knowledge, based upon science alone. The primary problem being
that science is not only refuting, but denying and disrupting, divine
knowledge. Science has entered into the "divine knowledge business" when
this occurs, and is science itself is making statements of divine knowledge
by denying the validity of divine knowledge.
Science has a very important loophole to prevent this, and it has
intentionally been forgotten. This loophole is "absence of evidence is not
evidence of absence." By scientists making statements of divine knowledge,
that have created the pseudo-religion scientism, and scientism is in direct
conflict with ontology. One or the other must go: ontology or scientism.
While ontology can never be a religion, its source is divine knowledge, or
more specifically psychotic insight (which is only one of the many types of
divine knowledge). I had no visions or voices guiding me.
All I had was my disassociation and depersonalization that allowed me to
examine my own psyche, and self-referentially model the ontology (I am an
entity of the ontology after all). Also, if you have a prejudice against
something called "divine knowledge," (which makes sense given the lack of
rigor and review in most near-Eastern religious text) please remember that I
am a software engineer, so I was conscious that I needed to be extremely
rigorous in my attainment of this knowledge, if I wanted others to accept it
as knowledge, and have them not simply dismiss it as mere religious
delusions. (snip)"
---
I am at least as intelligent as you are. Why are you not talking me
seriously, and being so dismissive of what I am saying? I am a logical and
reasoning person... Okay, so let us forget about all of my other questions,
and answer me this single question: "Why are you being so dismissive of what
I am saying and trying to do?" If it comes down to your disposition forces
you to appeal to authority, that is fine. If it is because I am delusional
(delusions say nothing of veracity, it is a judgment of empirical science),
and the scale is overwhelming you, that is fine also. However, if I am
entering into a discussion, and I need to be taken seriously, just like you
do, even with the warm-and-fuzziest of people.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 14 Jan 2006 04:22:52 AM
kogs skrev:

I am at least as intelligent as you are. Why are you not talking me
seriously, and being so dismissive of what I am saying? I am a logical and
reasoning person... Okay, so let us forget about all of my other questions,
and answer me this single question: "Why are you being so dismissive of what
I am saying and trying to do?"

Two things:
1) I am very critical of scientism and psychiatry. It is a limited and
limiting paradigm. I make efforts both intrapsychically and
interpersonally to confront those limitations.
I experience and accept experiences of what scientists would deny as
real. Every day. REgularly.
2) Perhaps I took you too literally. It sounded like you considered
yourself to be in the middle of a breakdown/breakthrough. I associate
such times with a lot of emotions and a state that is quite raw. It
seemed like you were going to head back into a psychiatric mileau
perhaps as a client and confront the psychiatrists with your ideas. I
agree with much of what you say, but to me this seemed foolish. It is
not that I deny your ideas or consider the psychiatrists sane and you
crazy. It just seemed to me of secondary importance to convince them.
Primary importance is to have you have a positive experience and
integrate and accept what you accept on a mental level but perhaps not
yet on emotional levels. If I misunderstood how you are planning to or
that you are planning to expose yourself, I'm sorry.
You identified yourself as having or being Asperger's - an idea in
their model. What that implies to me is certain things about how you
relate to and experience other people - regardless of whether their
model of sanity is right or limited - otherwise a smart person like you
would not use this diagnosis to introduce yourself. You would not put
it forward if the classic 'symptoms' did not relate in some way to you.
I took it as short hand for how you experience and how you are
experienced - without accepting that it is fair or valid or that you
are not sane. Given those qualities, which include a very tough time
understanding what other people are feeling AND the fact that you say
you are going through a psychotic break - again a term I took to be a
shorthand for certain kinds of experiences including confusion and raw
emotional states - I think it is critical that you avoid confrontations
in person with psychiatric paradigm people. They will shove ***** in
your sores. You sounded reckless to me. Does my thinking you are
reckless mean that I consider you not sane and ideas wrong? No.
Are you taking yourself seriously? Are you dismissing your emotions in
the urge to change other peoples mind's? It sounds to me like one
small part of you, however smart and right, has decided to go out and
prove it in the world, rather than integrating it in yourself.
A black man who has realized that he had, before, internalized
self-hatred of himself as a black man and is in the tumultuous process
of accepting himself and who now thinks the KKK is fucked up and tells
me he is going down to their headquarters and give them a piece of his
mind would get the same reaction from me.
I do not think your ideas about psychiatrists are delusional. Maybe if
you stopped using their terms for what you are and what you are
experiencing it would be clearer to me.
But it's clear you now think I represent the same pattern and am
calling you insane somehow, it is definitely time for me to back off.
Take care
.
User: "kogs"

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 17 Jan 2006 10:55:51 AM
<downinthefolds@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137234172.767357.66500@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...


kogs skrev:


I am at least as intelligent as you are. Why are you not talking me
seriously, and being so dismissive of what I am saying? I am a logical
and
reasoning person... Okay, so let us forget about all of my other
questions,
and answer me this single question: "Why are you being so dismissive of
what
I am saying and trying to do?"


Two things:
1) I am very critical of scientism and psychiatry. It is a limited and
limiting paradigm. I make efforts both intrapsychically and
interpersonally to confront those limitations.
I experience and accept experiences of what scientists would deny as
real. Every day. REgularly.
2) Perhaps I took you too literally. It sounded like you considered
yourself to be in the middle of a breakdown/breakthrough. I associate
such times with a lot of emotions and a state that is quite raw. It
seemed like you were going to head back into a psychiatric mileau
perhaps as a client and confront the psychiatrists with your ideas. I
agree with much of what you say, but to me this seemed foolish. It is
not that I deny your ideas or consider the psychiatrists sane and you
crazy. It just seemed to me of secondary importance to convince them.
Primary importance is to have you have a positive experience and
integrate and accept what you accept on a mental level but perhaps not
yet on emotional levels. If I misunderstood how you are planning to or
that you are planning to expose yourself, I'm sorry.

You identified yourself as having or being Asperger's - an idea in
their model. What that implies to me is certain things about how you
relate to and experience other people - regardless of whether their
model of sanity is right or limited - otherwise a smart person like you
would not use this diagnosis to introduce yourself. You would not put
it forward if the classic 'symptoms' did not relate in some way to you.
I took it as short hand for how you experience and how you are
experienced - without accepting that it is fair or valid or that you
are not sane. Given those qualities, which include a very tough time
understanding what other people are feeling AND the fact that you say
you are going through a psychotic break - again a term I took to be a
shorthand for certain kinds of experiences including confusion and raw
emotional states - I think it is critical that you avoid confrontations
in person with psychiatric paradigm people. They will shove ***** in
your sores. You sounded reckless to me. Does my thinking you are
reckless mean that I consider you not sane and ideas wrong? No.

Are you taking yourself seriously? Are you dismissing your emotions in
the urge to change other peoples mind's? It sounds to me like one
small part of you, however smart and right, has decided to go out and
prove it in the world, rather than integrating it in yourself.

A black man who has realized that he had, before, internalized
self-hatred of himself as a black man and is in the tumultuous process
of accepting himself and who now thinks the KKK is fucked up and tells
me he is going down to their headquarters and give them a piece of his
mind would get the same reaction from me.

I do not think your ideas about psychiatrists are delusional. Maybe if
you stopped using their terms for what you are and what you are
experiencing it would be clearer to me.

But it's clear you now think I represent the same pattern and am
calling you insane somehow, it is definitely time for me to back off.

Take care

(Sorry, I got tied-up, and this response is late)
I take myself more than seriously on this matter. What is going-on, and why
I am posting on Usenet, does not involve my psychological state in any way
shape or form. I know I am a total mess, why I am a total mess, and I do not
give a *****. I have a responsibility to seed an antidotal mind virus into
someone in a position to spread it worldwide and cure the civilized world of
the sanity delusion. There is no deep psychiatric meaning to what I am doing
other than I am trying to avoid the "oh *****! I am dead!"-syndrome.
Everybody's ***** in on the line, and if I ***** this up it could be decades,
or longer, before someone else is in the position I am. Yes, you do
represent the exact same patterns as a psychiatrist does to me. The reason
for this is that you are both sane, and do not understand that sanity is a
disease that has spread in order to hide disturbing truths form everyone,
the least of which is that everyone is psychotic.
I realize that you are not calling me insane -- I am calling you insane! The
reason that you believe, that I believe, you are calling me insane, is
because you are projecting my calling you insane back into your
object-self-affect and projecting it back "at" me, because you are close to
going into overload, because I am making sense and you need to repress it.
Am I frustrated and angry because people's fears prevent them from accepting
the self-evident truth that they are repressing and projecting their own
psychiatric problems back "at" me instead of listening to what I am saying.
I need to get my job done, and I cannot until people stop trying to
rationalizing away the terrifying truth that everyone is psychotic and that
reality is a teleological anthropomorphic fractal-chaotic self-organizing
self-organism, by psychoanalyzing what I am trying to do. Communicating this
***** is more than complicated enough without being psychoanalyzed, and
needing to defend myself and my motives.
Sure there are all sorts of juicy Freudian reason for why I had my psychotic
episode, but those are in the past. Now I am in the middle of fighting a
war, and people are asking me all sorts of questions about what I am
shooting at and why, instead of ducking for cover, grabbing a gun and
shooting in the same direction that I am. There is nothing motivating me
other than to inject the mind virus into some poor unsuspecting psychiatrist
or ACLU lawyer, other than self-preservation and wanting to help others. If
you cannot accept it, then you should psychoanalyze yourself for your own
self-trepidation fears and the delusion that you are sane, not mine. I am
about to *****-and-die from being the only person who knows that sanity is a
delusion and to be terrified of self- ! I am on "a mission from God" here,
end of story as far as my motivations go.
Trust me. I am more than eager to renter society. I have not had any *****
in over four years. But I cannot until I am done with my job. You are
psychoanalyzing me for doing my job. The reason for me doing my job is
simple -- it is my job! I did not want to spot the teleological
anthropomorphic self-organization of reality, I just did. Now I need to warn
others that they are in self-denial of the teleological anthropomorphic
self-organization, and their self-denial manifests the sanity delusion, and
the sanity delusion is causing all sorts of problems. No deep meaning, no
reason other than I am trying to save my own *****, and millions of other
asses. I can always work on my own healing after the war is won, not
before -- I am kind of busy here.
So there! Put that in your pipe and smoke it! (Ha! An inadvertent Freudian
joke.)
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Considering perspectives of reality 19 Jan 2006 10:37:35 AM