| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
08 Oct 2005 01:07:23 PM |
| Object: |
curved space? |
If space is curved by massive objects, then another mass approaching
should slow down because it takes longer to follow the curved line of
space, rather than accelerate.
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| User: "Henry Haapalainen" |
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| Title: Re: curved space? |
08 Oct 2005 04:28:05 PM |
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<drewmaps@hotmail.com> kirjoitti viestissä
news:1128794843.242973.121400@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
If space is curved by massive objects, then another mass approaching
should slow down because it takes longer to follow the curved line of
space, rather than accelerate.
All masses are moving straight ahead with constant speeds. Space is curved
because it is accelerating (falling) towards the massive objects. All those
speeds are relative, and we can not say what is moving faster than some
other.
Henry Haapalainen
http://www.wakkanet.fi/~fields/
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| User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org" |
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| Title: Re: curved space? |
08 Oct 2005 04:08:25 PM |
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<drewmaps@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1128794843.242973.121400@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| If space is curved by massive objects, then another mass approaching
| should slow down because it takes longer to follow the curved line of
| space, rather than accelerate.
Yeah... Comets do that, they slow so much they go back the other way.
We call that an "orbit".
Androcles.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: curved space? |
09 Oct 2005 05:41:12 AM |
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wrote:
If space is curved by massive objects, then another mass
approaching should slow down because it takes longer to
follow the curved line of space, rather than accelerate.
How would you measure the speed of these approaching objects?
Ultimately the only way is with light, which _also_ follows
the same curves.
It sounds like, explicitly or otherwise, you're trying to
picture curved space (spacetime actually) against some
fictitious Euclidean backdrop. But that's misleading -
spacetime is what we're in, and we can't see or measure
outside it.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: curved space? |
10 Oct 2005 01:26:51 PM |
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wrote:
If space is curved by massive objects,
It's mostly time that's curved. In Newtonian theory, it's *only* time
that's curved. So the curvature of space is, itself, the difference
between Newtonian gravity and general relativity and, in most ordinary
circumstances, is completely negligible.
I don't know if it's even been directly probed as of yet. There was
supposed to be an experiment involving the transport of a gyroscope in
orbit around the Earth to measure the angle deficit associated with the
curvature of the space in its vicinity.
If the space is curved, there will be a small change in orientation of
a gyroscope from one orbit to the next.
For objects moving near or at light speed (such as light itself) the
effect would be significant. About half the curvature of light's path
in the vincinity of a massive object is from the curvature of space --
which is probably why the effect predicted by Newtonian gravity is
about 1/2 as large as that predicted (and confirmed) by General
Relativity.
Orbit will also fail to close up into eliipses (as confirmed with
Mercury), partly due to the effect of length contraction and partly due
to the angle deficit associated with the curvature of the space around
gravitating bodies.
But the vast majority of the effect of gravity -- including all of the
tendency toward spontaneous acceleration near a massive body -- is
curvature of time.
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| User: "Y.Porat" |
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| Title: Re: curved space? |
11 Oct 2005 01:29:07 AM |
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wrote:
drewmaps@hotmail.com wrote:
If space is curved by massive objects,
It's mostly time that's curved. In Newtonian theory, it's *only* time
that's curved.
time is curved???
are you aware about the nonsense you talk??
time is a human invention it is not natures invention
at same logic you can say that relationship between people-
curves!!
you probably came to physics from the mathematics school!!
so man- start to think physics before mathematics
there should be a limit to nonsense here in the physics ng.
ATB
Y.Porat
-------------------------
So the curvature of space is, itself, the difference
between Newtonian gravity and general relativity and, in most ordinary
circumstances, is completely negligible.
I don't know if it's even been directly probed as of yet. There was
supposed to be an experiment involving the transport of a gyroscope in
orbit around the Earth to measure the angle deficit associated with the
curvature of the space in its vicinity.
If the space is curved, there will be a small change in orientation of
a gyroscope from one orbit to the next.
For objects moving near or at light speed (such as light itself) the
effect would be significant. About half the curvature of light's path
in the vincinity of a massive object is from the curvature of space --
which is probably why the effect predicted by Newtonian gravity is
about 1/2 as large as that predicted (and confirmed) by General
Relativity.
Orbit will also fail to close up into eliipses (as confirmed with
Mercury), partly due to the effect of length contraction and partly due
to the angle deficit associated with the curvature of the space around
gravitating bodies.
But the vast majority of the effect of gravity -- including all of the
tendency toward spontaneous acceleration near a massive body -- is
curvature of time.
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| User: "Orion" |
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| Title: Re: curved space? |
11 Oct 2005 03:59:15 PM |
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Y.Porat wrote:
time is curved???
are you aware about the nonsense you talk??
time is a human invention it is not natures invention
Everything in mathematics was invented too.
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| User: "Y.Porat" |
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| Title: Re: curved space? |
12 Oct 2005 01:30:14 AM |
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so ?.......
bottom line!!
do you support or reject the notion that 'time curves'
we are not in a philosophy ng we are in a physics ng
and i hope you agree with me that we are here not only to spend our
time
we would like to see some advance.
so again do you agree with spending efforts and time on the notion of
curved time'??
TIA
Y.Porat
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: curved space? |
08 Oct 2005 01:11:57 PM |
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wrote:
If space is curved by massive objects, then another mass approaching
should slow down because it takes longer to follow the curved line of
space, rather than accelerate.
Unless a direct hit, another object would follow the path of
a conic section, as Isaac Newton figured out mathematically.
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| User: "Y.Porat" |
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| Title: Re: curved space? |
09 Oct 2005 12:57:25 AM |
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will you stop once and for all
all that nonsense of curved space
btw the fact that you claim that it is curved only
next to a mass !! means ........
that the trick is in mass properties not in space!!
how is it that no cleaver guy could notice that
simple conclusion???
ATB
Y.Porat
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| User: "Mike" |
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| Title: Re: curved space? |
11 Oct 2005 07:41:14 AM |
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wrote:
If space is curved by massive objects, then another mass approaching
should slow down because it takes longer to follow the curved line of
space, rather than accelerate.
Place a very heavy object on a table top. Assumming the top is elastic
enough and does not break, you will notice a curvature. A small ball at
rest on the table top, now starts moving. It follows a path analogous
to a geodesic path.
You forget the action of gravity. As the mass gets near the massive
object, it exchanges potential energy with kinetic energy, which
increases. Unless the total mechanical energy is negative, there is a
collission. Otherwise, you get one an orbit described by one of the
four conic sections.
This is as far as the mathematical conception of space and curved
space. In reality, we do not know whether something like "space" exists
at all. Newton believed in an absolute space that exists independently
of anything else, whether Leibniz asserted that no such thing exists
and space is simple the set of spatiotemporal relations between
objects.
Also, a curve is a purely mathematical concept. In reality, we do not
know if something like that really takes place.
Furthermore, GR is just a model of gravitation and nothing in it
suggests it is a physical description of the world.
It is though better to consider spacetime as curving than just space or
time alone. It is easy to turn into a crank when you consider these
curving individually.
Mike
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