| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"W. Watson" |
| Date: |
23 Feb 2005 04:15:52 AM |
| Object: |
Depth of Focus & Formula?` |
I'm looking in a microscope, and can see the object in the eyepiece from a 1/10"
out to 3" pretty clearly. Of course, it gets smaller as I go out. Isn't this
called the depth of focus? Perhaps it's how much I can move the microscope's
knob in and out and still maintain focus, which isn't much. If my head movement
example is wrong, then why can I clearly see the image over a sizable range? My
eye is a lens, so isn't there an area (range) of focus?
I see a formula for depth of focus that involves the wave length divided by a
quantity involving the sine square. Does this formula have a name, or is named
for someone? I'd like a source where it is derived of discussed. The web page
I'm looking at calls in the depth of focus diffraction formula.
--
Wayne T. Watson (Watson Adventures, Prop., Nevada City, CA)
(121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time)
Obz Site: 39° 15' 7" N, 121° 2' 32" W, 2700 feet
Web Page: <home.earthlink.net/~mtnviews>
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| User: "Franz Heymann" |
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| Title: Re: Depth of Focus & Formula?` |
23 Feb 2005 02:05:25 PM |
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"W. Watson" <wolf_tracks@invalid.inv> wrote in message
news:sJYSd.3614$MY6.2120@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
I'm looking in a microscope, and can see the object in the eyepiece
from a 1/10"
out to 3" pretty clearly.
Unless you don't know how to express yourself clearly and
unambiguously, that is a lot of codswallop.
Of course, it gets smaller as I go out. Isn't this
called the depth of focus?
No.
Have a look at
http://www.matter.org.uk/tem/depth_of_field.htm
[snip]
--
Franz
"The great tragedy of science -- the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis
by an ugly fact."
T.H. Huxley
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| User: "Jon Bell" |
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| Title: Re: Depth of Focus & Formula?` |
23 Feb 2005 06:47:30 AM |
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In article <sJYSd.3614$MY6.2120@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
W. Watson <wolf_tracks@invalid.inv> wrote:
I'm looking in a microscope, and can see the object in the eyepiece from
a 1/10"
out to 3" pretty clearly. Of course, it gets smaller as I go out. Isn't this
called the depth of focus?
Are you talking about moving your head back and forth behind the eyepiece?
If so, that's simply the lens of your eye changing its focal length to
"accommodate" to the changing distance between your eye and the image that
you're looking at. It's the same reason why you can hold an object within
a range of distances from your eye and still see it clearly. For young
people this range of distances is usually, quite large. For older people
(like me!) the range is much smaller, which is why we need bifocal or
trifocal eyeglasses.
Perhaps it's how much I can move the microscope's
knob in and out and still maintain focus, which isn't much.
That's one way to describe "depth of focu" for a microscope.
Alternatively, it's the range of object positions, for fixed lens
position, that produces acceptably sharp images. Note "acceptably" rather
than "perfectly".
If my head movement example is wrong, then why can I clearly see the
image over a sizable range? My eye is a lens, so isn't there an area
(range) of focus?
See above. The lens of your eye can change its shape and therefore its
focal length. As you get older this ability decreases.
--
Jon Bell <jtbellm4h@presby.edu> Presbyterian College
Dept. of Physics and Computer Science Clinton, South Carolina USA
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| User: "W. Watson" |
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| Title: Re: Depth of Focus & Formula?` |
23 Feb 2005 09:08:40 AM |
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Jon Bell wrote:
In article <sJYSd.3614$MY6.2120@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
W. Watson <wolf_tracks@invalid.inv> wrote:
I'm looking in a microscope, and can see the object in the eyepiece from
a 1/10"
out to 3" pretty clearly. Of course, it gets smaller as I go out. Isn't this
called the depth of focus?
Are you talking about moving your head back and forth behind the eyepiece?
If so, that's simply the lens of your eye changing its focal length to
"accommodate" to the changing distance between your eye and the image that
you're looking at. It's the same reason why you can hold an object within
a range of distances from your eye and still see it clearly. For young
people this range of distances is usually, quite large. For older people
(like me!) the range is much smaller, which is why we need bifocal or
trifocal eyeglasses.
Perhaps it's how much I can move the microscope's
knob in and out and still maintain focus, which isn't much.
That's one way to describe "depth of focu" for a microscope.
Alternatively, it's the range of object positions, for fixed lens
position, that produces acceptably sharp images. Note "acceptably" rather
than "perfectly".
If my head movement example is wrong, then why can I clearly see the
image over a sizable range? My eye is a lens, so isn't there an area
(range) of focus?
See above. The lens of your eye can change its shape and therefore its
focal length. As you get older this ability decreases.
Thanks.
I just realized, correctly, I hope, that my eye has a depth of field, and that's
why I can still see the image well at various distances. And as you say, the
eyeball is able to flex to accommodate objects at various distances.
--
Wayne T. Watson (Watson Adventures, Prop., Nevada City, CA)
(121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time)
Obz Site: 39° 15' 7" N, 121° 2' 32" W, 2700 feet
Web Page: <home.earthlink.net/~mtnviews>
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| User: "John C. Polasek" |
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| Title: Re: Depth of Focus & Formula?` |
23 Feb 2005 03:54:04 PM |
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On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:15:52 GMT, "W. Watson"
<wolf_tracks@invalid.inv> wrote:
I'm looking in a microscope, and can see the object in the eyepiece from a 1/10"
out to 3" pretty clearly. Of course, it gets smaller as I go out. Isn't this
called the depth of focus?
No, it's called eye relief and is important in for example rifle
scopes.
Mr. Dual Space
If you have something to say, write an equation.
If you have nothing to say, write an essay
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| User: "Andy Resnick" |
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| Title: Re: Depth of Focus & Formula?` |
23 Feb 2005 07:38:50 AM |
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W. Watson wrote:
I'm looking in a microscope, and can see the object in the eyepiece from
a 1/10" out to 3" pretty clearly. Of course, it gets smaller as I go
out. Isn't this called the depth of focus? Perhaps it's how much I can
move the microscope's knob in and out and still maintain focus, which
isn't much. If my head movement example is wrong, then why can I clearly
see the image over a sizable range? My eye is a lens, so isn't there an
area (range) of focus?
It's not entirely clear what you are doing, but "depth of focus" or
"depth of field" traditionally means the image plane is at a constant
position and the object plane moves. So, the depth of field of the
microscope would be how much you can move the sample up and down,
keeping your head still, and have the sample be in focus.
Eyes have a smallish depth of field due to their focal length (f#/ of
about 3 - 4), and the ability to change the focal length of the lens by
using musculature.
I see a formula for depth of focus that involves the wave length divided
by a quantity involving the sine square. Does this formula have a name,
or is named for someone? I'd like a source where it is derived of
discussed. The web page I'm looking at calls in the depth of focus
diffraction formula.
That quantity is called "numerical aperture" and is generally the most
important specification of a lens (aside from quality of manufacture).
Deriving that formula (d = l/NA^2, I believe) is not simple, and is only
valid for the paraxial approximation. For large NA lenses, the formula
is modified somewhat.
Born and Wolf have a derivation of the paraxial approximation formula.
To be sure, depth of focus is somewhat nebuluos, requiring someone to
decide exactly at what point the object is no longer in focus. Attempts
to quantify the relationship, for example by using the Struve ratio, are
moderately successful.
--
Andrew Resnick, Ph.D.
Department of Physiology and Biophysics
Case Western Reserve University
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| User: "W. Watson" |
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| Title: Re: Depth of Focus & Formula?` |
23 Feb 2005 09:22:55 AM |
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Thanks. Comments interspersed.
Andy Resnick wrote:
W. Watson wrote:
I'm looking in a microscope, and can see the object in the eyepiece
from a 1/10" out to 3" pretty clearly. Of course, it gets smaller as I
go out. Isn't this called the depth of focus? Perhaps it's how much I
can move the microscope's knob in and out and still maintain focus,
which isn't much. If my head movement example is wrong, then why can I
clearly see the image over a sizable range? My eye is a lens, so isn't
there an area (range) of focus?
It's not entirely clear what you are doing, but "depth of focus" or
"depth of field" traditionally means the image plane is at a constant
position and the object plane moves. So, the depth of field of the
microscope would be how much you can move the sample up and down,
keeping your head still, and have the sample be in focus.
As I was experimenting with the microscope, I started questioning myself about
why I was able to see the microscope image over a goodly distance, while that
wasn't true with the camera I was using (aimed down the eyepiece). The camera
had a very specific distance to gain a clear focus (I had its lens off), but my
eye was holding focus at a good range of distances. Then I started thinking
maybe there is such a thing as depth of focus, and, by golly, there is. See below.
Eyes have a smallish depth of field due to their focal length (f#/ of
about 3 - 4), and the ability to change the focal length of the lens by
using musculature.
I see a formula for depth of focus that involves the wave length
divided by a quantity involving the sine square. Does this formula
have a name, or is named for someone? I'd like a source where it is
derived of discussed. The web page I'm looking at calls in the depth
of focus diffraction formula.
That quantity is called "numerical aperture" and is generally the most
important specification of a lens (aside from quality of manufacture).
Deriving that formula (d = l/NA^2, I believe) is not simple, and is only
valid for the paraxial approximation. For large NA lenses, the formula
is modified somewhat.
Born and Wolf have a derivation of the paraxial approximation formula.
To be sure, depth of focus is somewhat nebuluos, requiring someone to
decide exactly at what point the object is no longer in focus. Attempts
to quantify the relationship, for example by using the Struve ratio, are
moderately successful.
Don't have access to that source, but I do have access to Hecht.
As I just posted above to another responder, I realized, perhaps correctly, that
my eyeball "camera" has a depth of field, and that's why I can see the image in
the microscope from various distances. When I started thinking about this as
described above, I thought of my eye as a lens with a specific point of focus,
and not a camera, which has a depth of field. At least, it in my mind it makes
it explainable in those terms.
--
Wayne T. Watson (Watson Adventures, Prop., Nevada City, CA)
(121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time)
Obz Site: 39° 15' 7" N, 121° 2' 32" W, 2700 feet
Web Page: <home.earthlink.net/~mtnviews>
.
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| User: "John C. Polasek" |
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| Title: Re: Depth of Focus & Formula?` |
23 Feb 2005 09:58:28 AM |
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On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:22:55 GMT, "W. Watson"
<wolf_tracks@invalid.inv> wrote:
Thanks. Comments interspersed.
Andy Resnick wrote:
W. Watson wrote:
I'm looking in a microscope, and can see the object in the eyepiece
from a 1/10" out to 3" pretty clearly. Of course, it gets smaller as I
go out. Isn't this called the depth of focus? Perhaps it's how much I
can move the microscope's knob in and out and still maintain focus,
which isn't much. If my head movement example is wrong, then why can I
clearly see the image over a sizable range? My eye is a lens, so isn't
there an area (range) of focus?
It's not entirely clear what you are doing, but "depth of focus" or
"depth of field" traditionally means the image plane is at a constant
position and the object plane moves. So, the depth of field of the
microscope would be how much you can move the sample up and down,
keeping your head still, and have the sample be in focus.
As I was experimenting with the microscope, I started questioning myself about
why I was able to see the microscope image over a goodly distance, while that
wasn't true with the camera I was using (aimed down the eyepiece). The camera
had a very specific distance to gain a clear focus (I had its lens off), but my
eye was holding focus at a good range of distances. Then I started thinking
maybe there is such a thing as depth of focus, and, by golly, there is. See below.
Eyes have a smallish depth of field due to their focal length (f#/ of
about 3 - 4), and the ability to change the focal length of the lens by
using musculature.
I see a formula for depth of focus that involves the wave length
divided by a quantity involving the sine square. Does this formula
have a name, or is named for someone? I'd like a source where it is
derived of discussed. The web page I'm looking at calls in the depth
of focus diffraction formula.
That quantity is called "numerical aperture" and is generally the most
important specification of a lens (aside from quality of manufacture).
Deriving that formula (d = l/NA^2, I believe) is not simple, and is only
valid for the paraxial approximation. For large NA lenses, the formula
is modified somewhat.
Born and Wolf have a derivation of the paraxial approximation formula.
To be sure, depth of focus is somewhat nebuluos, requiring someone to
decide exactly at what point the object is no longer in focus. Attempts
to quantify the relationship, for example by using the Struve ratio, are
moderately successful.
Don't have access to that source, but I do have access to Hecht.
As I just posted above to another responder, I realized, perhaps correctly, that
my eyeball "camera" has a depth of field, and that's why I can see the image in
the microscope from various distances. When I started thinking about this as
described above, I thought of my eye as a lens with a specific point of focus,
and not a camera, which has a depth of field. At least, it in my mind it makes
it explainable in those terms.
When you focus an optical instrument you focus so that a real image is
formed at 10" away from your eye, that being considered the normal
close range distance. Moving back 3" makes this 13", so not much
refocussing is needed.
In simple optics like an opera glass or perhaps even the camera
eyepiece, a meniscus lens is used for the eyepiece to avoid inversion
of the image. As a result the image you see is a virtual one, so
without working it all out, I believe your 3" motion in that case
would become quite huge.
Mr. Dual Space
If you have something to say, write an equation.
If you have nothing to say, write an essay
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