Science > Physics > Did science get the orientation of the magnetic field wrong?
| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
06 Apr 2006 01:04:14 AM |
| Object: |
Did science get the orientation of the magnetic field wrong? |
It is commonly shown that magnetic field lines follow the same pattern
that you would see if you sprinkled iron filings around a magnet. The
field lines generally originate out of the poles and curve around.
However, if we make this assumption, we find a very puzzling situation
in Lorentz Law as described by the link:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magfor.html
We find that the force on a moving charge is at a 90 degree angle to
the direction of the magnetic field. How can this be? This would be
like tossing a hand full of confetti on one side of a fan and instead
of it flowing in the direction the fan is blowing, it blows up and if
we toss it on the other side of the fan, it blows down. This is very
strange behavior indeed.
I would propose that the problem is that we have defined the direction
of the magnetic field incorrectly. We have been biased by the action of
iron filings around magnets, but if we consider the action of moving
charges, it makes much more sense that the magnetic lines of force are
actually in a 90 degree angle from what we conventionally think is the
direction of the magnetic force. In this case the magnetic field lines
would be wrapped around a magnet like a wire around a nail. The
magnetic field direction in a straight wire would be parallel with the
electron flow. We can now easily understand how running a current
through a wire wrapped around a nail intuitively produces the same
field as a permanent magnet. The field lines simply follow the wire.
I am not 100% certain, but I think the orientation of the magnetic
field is just a convention. Just like we assign the top of the battery
+ and the bottom -. Benjamin Franklin used to think electrons flowed
from the positive terminal to the negative and science followed him,
but now we know it goes the other way. Science has a long history of
getting fundamental properties backwards. Similarly, the magnetic field
orientation has also been incorrectly identified. Mathematically, it
makes little difference which way you orient the field, but
intuitively, it makes much more sense that the magnetic field lines
line up with the direction of current flow instead of at 90 degrees to
it.
With this new magnetic field orientation, things are not so confusing.
If we shoot a beam of electrons between the N-S poles of two magnets,
the magnetic field lines are not stretching in a straight line between
the magnets, they actually form loops like a wire around a nail and
when the electron enters the field, the electrons are just following
the circular flow around the magnets. You could think of the magnetic
field as a flowing vortex and the electron gets caught up in it like
confetti in the wind. So when the electron flows between the magnet, it
either gets swept upwards or downwards depending on the direction of
the magnetic field. It flows with the direction of the magnetic field
orientation, not at 90 degree angles to it.
You can easily see this vortex if you put the pole of a magnet on a
black and white TV. You should use a long magnet with a N pole on one
end and a S pole on the other. Place the magnet perpendicular to the
screen. What you see is that the entire picture will twist where you
put the magnet - as if there was a tornado vortex being formed around
the magnet sweeping the electrons around the magnet.
To me, this make far more sense than thinking that the electrons are
moving at 90 degree angles to the magnetic lines of force. If this is
true, it would be as big a science mistake as thinking electrons flowed
from + to -. What do other people think - could science have gotten
this fundamental magnetic property wrong for so long?
fhumag
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| User: "Herman Family" |
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| Title: Re: Did science get the orientation of the magnetic field wrong? |
06 Apr 2006 01:17:39 AM |
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<franklinhu@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1144303454.369049.48130@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
It is commonly shown that magnetic field lines follow the same pattern
that you would see if you sprinkled iron filings around a magnet. The
field lines generally originate out of the poles and curve around.
However, if we make this assumption, we find a very puzzling situation
in Lorentz Law as described by the link:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magfor.html
We find that the force on a moving charge is at a 90 degree angle to
the direction of the magnetic field. How can this be? This would be
like tossing a hand full of confetti on one side of a fan and instead
of it flowing in the direction the fan is blowing, it blows up and if
we toss it on the other side of the fan, it blows down. This is very
strange behavior indeed.
I would propose that the problem is that we have defined the direction
of the magnetic field incorrectly. We have been biased by the action of
iron filings around magnets, but if we consider the action of moving
charges, it makes much more sense that the magnetic lines of force are
actually in a 90 degree angle from what we conventionally think is the
direction of the magnetic force. In this case the magnetic field lines
would be wrapped around a magnet like a wire around a nail. The
magnetic field direction in a straight wire would be parallel with the
electron flow. We can now easily understand how running a current
through a wire wrapped around a nail intuitively produces the same
field as a permanent magnet. The field lines simply follow the wire.
I am not 100% certain, but I think the orientation of the magnetic
field is just a convention. Just like we assign the top of the battery
+ and the bottom -. Benjamin Franklin used to think electrons flowed
from the positive terminal to the negative and science followed him,
but now we know it goes the other way. Science has a long history of
getting fundamental properties backwards. Similarly, the magnetic field
orientation has also been incorrectly identified. Mathematically, it
makes little difference which way you orient the field, but
intuitively, it makes much more sense that the magnetic field lines
line up with the direction of current flow instead of at 90 degrees to
it.
With this new magnetic field orientation, things are not so confusing.
If we shoot a beam of electrons between the N-S poles of two magnets,
the magnetic field lines are not stretching in a straight line between
the magnets, they actually form loops like a wire around a nail and
when the electron enters the field, the electrons are just following
the circular flow around the magnets. You could think of the magnetic
field as a flowing vortex and the electron gets caught up in it like
confetti in the wind. So when the electron flows between the magnet, it
either gets swept upwards or downwards depending on the direction of
the magnetic field. It flows with the direction of the magnetic field
orientation, not at 90 degree angles to it.
You can easily see this vortex if you put the pole of a magnet on a
black and white TV. You should use a long magnet with a N pole on one
end and a S pole on the other. Place the magnet perpendicular to the
screen. What you see is that the entire picture will twist where you
put the magnet - as if there was a tornado vortex being formed around
the magnet sweeping the electrons around the magnet.
To me, this make far more sense than thinking that the electrons are
moving at 90 degree angles to the magnetic lines of force. If this is
true, it would be as big a science mistake as thinking electrons flowed
from + to -. What do other people think - could science have gotten
this fundamental magnetic property wrong for so long?
fhumag
Actually, you answered your own question quite nicely. The TV example shows
that there is a force on the electrons which is acting perpendicular to
their motion. That is why they travel towards the magnet in a helix, rather
than a straight line. If you happen to pick up a good college physics book,
your example is often given with a very nice explanation.
Michael
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| User: "Igor" |
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| Title: Re: Did science get the orientation of the magnetic field wrong? |
06 Apr 2006 11:44:58 AM |
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wrote:
It is commonly shown that magnetic field lines follow the same pattern
that you would see if you sprinkled iron filings around a magnet. The
field lines generally originate out of the poles and curve around.
However, if we make this assumption, we find a very puzzling situation
in Lorentz Law as described by the link:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magfor.html
We find that the force on a moving charge is at a 90 degree angle to
the direction of the magnetic field. How can this be?
It can't be anything else! The magnetic field is a bi-vector
(sometimes referred to as an axial vector). Only by crossing it with
velocity can the symmetry of the force be maintained. Magnetic fields
can only deflect charges, not change their speeds.
This would be
like tossing a hand full of confetti on one side of a fan and instead
of it flowing in the direction the fan is blowing, it blows up and if
we toss it on the other side of the fan, it blows down. This is very
strange behavior indeed.
The iron filings line up with the magnetic field because they have a
high magnetic permeability. This is completely different from the
behavior experienced by a moving electrical charge when it encounters
a magnetic field.
I would propose that the problem is that we have defined the direction
of the magnetic field incorrectly. We have been biased by the action of
iron filings around magnets, but if we consider the action of moving
charges, it makes much more sense that the magnetic lines of force are
actually in a 90 degree angle from what we conventionally think is the
direction of the magnetic force. In this case the magnetic field lines
would be wrapped around a magnet like a wire around a nail. The
magnetic field direction in a straight wire would be parallel with the
electron flow. We can now easily understand how running a current
through a wire wrapped around a nail intuitively produces the same
field as a permanent magnet. The field lines simply follow the wire.
You might want to go back and review what you think you know about
electricity and magnetism, because it sounds to me to be a little off
kilter here.
I am not 100% certain, but I think the orientation of the magnetic
field is just a convention. Just like we assign the top of the battery
+ and the bottom -. Benjamin Franklin used to think electrons flowed
from the positive terminal to the negative and science followed him,
but now we know it goes the other way. Science has a long history of
getting fundamental properties backwards. Similarly, the magnetic field
orientation has also been incorrectly identified. Mathematically, it
makes little difference which way you orient the field, but
intuitively, it makes much more sense that the magnetic field lines
line up with the direction of current flow instead of at 90 degrees to
it.
If there's any problem with orientation, the legitimate question would
be whether the field runs more or less clockwise or counter-clockwise,
since magnetic fields can only form closed loops. Any other
orientation is completely out of the question, since it would break the
symmetry. This has never been observed.
With this new magnetic field orientation, things are not so confusing.
If we shoot a beam of electrons between the N-S poles of two magnets,
the magnetic field lines are not stretching in a straight line between
the magnets, they actually form loops like a wire around a nail and
when the electron enters the field, the electrons are just following
the circular flow around the magnets. You could think of the magnetic
field as a flowing vortex and the electron gets caught up in it like
confetti in the wind. So when the electron flows between the magnet, it
either gets swept upwards or downwards depending on the direction of
the magnetic field. It flows with the direction of the magnetic field
orientation, not at 90 degree angles to it.
You can easily see this vortex if you put the pole of a magnet on a
black and white TV. You should use a long magnet with a N pole on one
end and a S pole on the other. Place the magnet perpendicular to the
screen. What you see is that the entire picture will twist where you
put the magnet - as if there was a tornado vortex being formed around
the magnet sweeping the electrons around the magnet.
To me, this make far more sense than thinking that the electrons are
moving at 90 degree angles to the magnetic lines of force. If this is
true, it would be as big a science mistake as thinking electrons flowed
from + to -. What do other people think - could science have gotten
this fundamental magnetic property wrong for so long?
So maybe what you are saying is that the magnetic field should be
defined to point in the direction of the magnetic force. At least that
is what it sounds like to me. But how do we do this? We know that the
force must be normal to velocity, but that leaves a whole plane of
possibilities and then the field will not have a well-defined
direction. By defining the field as also being perpendicular to the
force, this solves our problem. There's really no other way to set it
up consistently.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Did science get the orientation of the magnetic field wrong? |
07 Apr 2006 05:07:59 PM |
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wrote:
It is commonly shown that magnetic field lines follow the same pattern
that you would see if you sprinkled iron filings around a magnet. The
field lines generally originate out of the poles and curve around.
However, if we make this assumption, we find a very puzzling situation
in Lorentz Law as described by the link:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magfor.html
We find that the force on a moving charge is at a 90 degree angle to
the direction of the magnetic field. How can this be? This would be
like tossing a hand full of confetti on one side of a fan and instead
of it flowing in the direction the fan is blowing, it blows up and if
we toss it on the other side of the fan, it blows down. This is very
strange behavior indeed.
I would propose that the problem is that we have defined the direction
of the magnetic field incorrectly. We have been biased by the action of
iron filings around magnets, but if we consider the action of moving
charges, it makes much more sense that the magnetic lines of force are
actually in a 90 degree angle from what we conventionally think is the
direction of the magnetic force. In this case the magnetic field lines
would be wrapped around a magnet like a wire around a nail. The
magnetic field direction in a straight wire would be parallel with the
electron flow. We can now easily understand how running a current
through a wire wrapped around a nail intuitively produces the same
field as a permanent magnet. The field lines simply follow the wire.
It's because mangets don't have force lines,
they have flux lines,
And the problem arises because mathematicians are
actually too stupid to correct Newton's equations.
I am not 100% certain, but I think the orientation of the magnetic
field is just a convention. Just like we assign the top of the battery
+ and the bottom -. Benjamin Franklin used to think electrons flowed
from the positive terminal to the negative and science followed him,
but now we know it goes the other way. Science has a long history of
getting fundamental properties backwards. Similarly, the magnetic field
orientation has also been incorrectly identified. Mathematically, it
makes little difference which way you orient the field, but
intuitively, it makes much more sense that the magnetic field lines
line up with the direction of current flow instead of at 90 degrees to
it.
With this new magnetic field orientation, things are not so confusing.
If we shoot a beam of electrons between the N-S poles of two magnets,
the magnetic field lines are not stretching in a straight line between
the magnets, they actually form loops like a wire around a nail and
when the electron enters the field, the electrons are just following
the circular flow around the magnets. You could think of the magnetic
field as a flowing vortex and the electron gets caught up in it like
confetti in the wind. So when the electron flows between the magnet, it
either gets swept upwards or downwards depending on the direction of
the magnetic field. It flows with the direction of the magnetic field
orientation, not at 90 degree angles to it.
You can easily see this vortex if you put the pole of a magnet on a
black and white TV. You should use a long magnet with a N pole on one
end and a S pole on the other. Place the magnet perpendicular to the
screen. What you see is that the entire picture will twist where you
put the magnet - as if there was a tornado vortex being formed around
the magnet sweeping the electrons around the magnet.
To me, this make far more sense than thinking that the electrons are
moving at 90 degree angles to the magnetic lines of force. If this is
true, it would be as big a science mistake as thinking electrons flowed
from + to -. What do other people think - could science have gotten
this fundamental magnetic property wrong for so long?
fhumag
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Did science get the orientation of the magnetic field wrong? |
06 Apr 2006 12:28:05 PM |
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wrote:
iron filings around magnets, but if we consider the action of moving
charges, it makes much more sense that the magnetic lines of force are
actually in a 90 degree angle from what we conventionally think is the
direction of the magnetic force. In this case the magnetic field lines
would be wrapped around a magnet like a wire around a nail.
Nope, because then if you shot some electrons past the side of
a bar magnet, they would STILL not follow your new field lines.
Instead they would either bend towards or away from the magnet.
Your mistake is to assume that there is only one vector which is 90 deg
from the conventional field lines. Instead there is an entire plane,
an
infinite number of vectors. Each line of magnetic flux would penetrate
this plane perpendicularly. Or in other words... most electrons
WON'T
bend to follow your new magnet-circling field lines.
PS
There is already a "field" which is 90deg from magnetic flux lines.
It's
the magnetic potential. The magnetic potential forms curved surfaces,
where the magnetic field lines always penetrate these surfaces at an
angle of 90 deg. If your reasoning was correct, we should simply
replace "magnetic field" with "shells of magnetic potential."
((((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( (o) ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty Research Engineer
beaty@chem.washington.edu UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74
billb@eskimo.com Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700
ph425-222-5066 http//staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/
The
magnetic field direction in a straight wire would be parallel with the
electron flow. We can now easily understand how running a current
through a wire wrapped around a nail intuitively produces the same
field as a permanent magnet. The field lines simply follow the wire.
I am not 100% certain, but I think the orientation of the magnetic
field is just a convention. Just like we assign the top of the battery
+ and the bottom -. Benjamin Franklin used to think electrons flowed
from the positive terminal to the negative and science followed him,
but now we know it goes the other way. Science has a long history of
getting fundamental properties backwards. Similarly, the magnetic field
orientation has also been incorrectly identified. Mathematically, it
makes little difference which way you orient the field, but
intuitively, it makes much more sense that the magnetic field lines
line up with the direction of current flow instead of at 90 degrees to
it.
With this new magnetic field orientation, things are not so confusing.
If we shoot a beam of electrons between the N-S poles of two magnets,
the magnetic field lines are not stretching in a straight line between
the magnets, they actually form loops like a wire around a nail and
when the electron enters the field, the electrons are just following
the circular flow around the magnets. You could think of the magnetic
field as a flowing vortex and the electron gets caught up in it like
confetti in the wind. So when the electron flows between the magnet, it
either gets swept upwards or downwards depending on the direction of
the magnetic field. It flows with the direction of the magnetic field
orientation, not at 90 degree angles to it.
You can easily see this vortex if you put the pole of a magnet on a
black and white TV. You should use a long magnet with a N pole on one
end and a S pole on the other. Place the magnet perpendicular to the
screen. What you see is that the entire picture will twist where you
put the magnet - as if there was a tornado vortex being formed around
the magnet sweeping the electrons around the magnet.
To me, this make far more sense than thinking that the electrons are
moving at 90 degree angles to the magnetic lines of force. If this is
true, it would be as big a science mistake as thinking electrons flowed
from + to -. What do other people think - could science have gotten
this fundamental magnetic property wrong for so long?
fhumag
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| User: "ABarlow" |
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| Title: Re: Did science get the orientation of the magnetic field wrong? |
06 Apr 2006 01:14:23 AM |
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Instead of trying to figure out what "looks" right, it might be worth
actually taking a look at the mathematics that govern magnetic fields.
It will make a lot more sense once you do.
A.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Did science get the orientation of the magnetic field wrong? |
07 Apr 2006 04:48:25 PM |
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You have Faraday to thank for magnetic fields and magnetic lines of force.
How can he have been wrong when he was the only game in town. Ampere said
exactly what you are saying, that the dynamic electrical field is a
tangential field to a bar magnet. No one understood him, but its still there
if you wish to research Ampere.
In my humble opinion the magnetic field is an observible function and
contempory physics can only comprehend wysiwyg physics. The industrial
revolution would not have prevailed otherwise.
In a cause and effect relationship the illusionary magnetic field is an
effect while the Amperian dynamic electrical field is the cause (when a
charged particle in motion finds itself in a dynamic electrical field it
will seek a fresh path of least resistance.
The actual force is locally generated by that re-direction of inertia that
the charged partical experiences while it is acted upon by the Amperian
dynamic electrical field. This means that lines of force do not exist as
contiguous leverageable medium,
but you will never convince an iron filing of that as it presents an
orchastrated response to what appears to be magnetic lines of force.
You can observe this re-direction of inertia directly simply by holding a
magnet up to the face of a crt to see the tangential repositioning of the
electrons in flight as they seek a new path of least resistance.
Inquire for blurb, Kind regards, Lee Pugh
<franklinhu@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1144303454.369049.48130@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
It is commonly shown that magnetic field lines follow the same pattern
that you would see if you sprinkled iron filings around a magnet. The
field lines generally originate out of the poles and curve around.
However, if we make this assumption, we find a very puzzling situation
in Lorentz Law as described by the link:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magfor.html
We find that the force on a moving charge is at a 90 degree angle to
the direction of the magnetic field. How can this be? This would be
like tossing a hand full of confetti on one side of a fan and instead
of it flowing in the direction the fan is blowing, it blows up and if
we toss it on the other side of the fan, it blows down. This is very
strange behavior indeed.
I would propose that the problem is that we have defined the direction
of the magnetic field incorrectly. We have been biased by the action of
iron filings around magnets, but if we consider the action of moving
charges, it makes much more sense that the magnetic lines of force are
actually in a 90 degree angle from what we conventionally think is the
direction of the magnetic force. In this case the magnetic field lines
would be wrapped around a magnet like a wire around a nail. The
magnetic field direction in a straight wire would be parallel with the
electron flow. We can now easily understand how running a current
through a wire wrapped around a nail intuitively produces the same
field as a permanent magnet. The field lines simply follow the wire.
I am not 100% certain, but I think the orientation of the magnetic
field is just a convention. Just like we assign the top of the battery
+ and the bottom -. Benjamin Franklin used to think electrons flowed
from the positive terminal to the negative and science followed him,
but now we know it goes the other way. Science has a long history of
getting fundamental properties backwards. Similarly, the magnetic field
orientation has also been incorrectly identified. Mathematically, it
makes little difference which way you orient the field, but
intuitively, it makes much more sense that the magnetic field lines
line up with the direction of current flow instead of at 90 degrees to
it.
With this new magnetic field orientation, things are not so confusing.
If we shoot a beam of electrons between the N-S poles of two magnets,
the magnetic field lines are not stretching in a straight line between
the magnets, they actually form loops like a wire around a nail and
when the electron enters the field, the electrons are just following
the circular flow around the magnets. You could think of the magnetic
field as a flowing vortex and the electron gets caught up in it like
confetti in the wind. So when the electron flows between the magnet, it
either gets swept upwards or downwards depending on the direction of
the magnetic field. It flows with the direction of the magnetic field
orientation, not at 90 degree angles to it.
You can easily see this vortex if you put the pole of a magnet on a
black and white TV. You should use a long magnet with a N pole on one
end and a S pole on the other. Place the magnet perpendicular to the
screen. What you see is that the entire picture will twist where you
put the magnet - as if there was a tornado vortex being formed around
the magnet sweeping the electrons around the magnet.
To me, this make far more sense than thinking that the electrons are
moving at 90 degree angles to the magnetic lines of force. If this is
true, it would be as big a science mistake as thinking electrons flowed
from + to -. What do other people think - could science have gotten
this fundamental magnetic property wrong for so long?
fhumag
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| User: "tadchem" |
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| Title: Re: Did science get the orientation of the magnetic field wrong? |
08 Apr 2006 09:54:33 AM |
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You seem to be assuming that charged particles should 'feel' force
parallel to the lines of the pseudovector field we call magnetism,
rather than perpendicular to those lines.
Why?
Charged particles already feel force parallel to the true vector field
lines of an electric field.
Magnetism effects interact with the *motion* (velocity vector) of
charged particles, rather than with just their scalar charges. To
transform a vector (motion) V into another vector (force) F
mathematically requires a tensor (in 3-space it is called a
'pseudovector') B.
F = qV x B
Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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| User: "Hexenmeister" |
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| Title: Re: Did science get the orientation of the magnetic field wrong? |
09 Apr 2006 05:38:21 AM |
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"tadchem" <tadchem@comcast.net> wrote in message =
news:1144508073.067897.216040@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
| You seem to be assuming that charged particles should 'feel' force
| parallel to the lines of the pseudovector field we call magnetism,
| rather than perpendicular to those lines.
|=20
| Why?
You seem to be assuming that rotors should feel force perpendicular
to the lines of the pseudovector field we call electric, rather than
parallel to those lines.
Why?
|=20
| Charged particles already feel force parallel to the true vector field
| lines of an electric field.
Rotors already feel force parallel to the true vector field lines of=20
a magnetic field.
|=20
| Magnetism effects interact with the *motion* (velocity vector) of
| charged particles, rather than with just their scalar charges. =20
Electrical effects interact with the *motion* (velocity vector) of
magnetic flux, rather than with just their scalar charges.=20
| To
| transform a vector (motion) V into another vector (force) F
| mathematically requires a tensor (in 3-space it is called a
| 'pseudovector') B.
To
transform a vector (motion) V into another vector (force) F
mathematically requires a tensor (in 3-space it is called a
'true vector') B.
|=20
| F =3D qV x B
F =3D qV x B
and single phase squirrel cage induction motors can rotate clockwise
or counterclockwise, the direction being determined by the starting =
windings.
Androcles.
|=20
| Tom Davidson
| Richmond, VA
|
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