| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"littlejoe" |
| Date: |
05 Jul 2007 07:16:46 PM |
| Object: |
Difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass |
Is there any difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass ?
(My guestimate says yes, but I'm not sure)
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: Difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass |
06 Jul 2007 08:45:05 AM |
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On Jul 5, 7:16 pm, "littlejoe" <little...@littlejoelittlejoe.lj>
wrote:
Is there any difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass ?
None, if the inertial mass is at rest. :>)
Very little, if the mass's motion is much less than c, which is why
classical mechanics makes no distinction.
The difference becomes noticeable once you find out that your
cyclotron doesn't deliver particles with the momentum you expected it
would using a classical mechanics design.
PD
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| User: "malibu" |
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| Title: Re: Difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass |
07 Jul 2007 09:51:05 AM |
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On Jul 6, 7:45 am, PD <TheDraperFam...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 5, 7:16 pm, "littlejoe" <little...@littlejoelittlejoe.lj>
wrote:
Is there any difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass ?
None, if the inertial mass is at rest. :>)
Very little, if the mass's motion is much less than c, which is why
classical mechanics makes no distinction.
The difference becomes noticeable once you find out that your
cyclotron doesn't deliver particles with the momentum you expected it
would using a classical mechanics design.
PD
What % of c has your cyclotron achieved 4 ur particles 2 date?
john
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: Difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass |
07 Jul 2007 01:52:04 PM |
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On Jul 7, 9:51 am, malibu <vega...@accesscomm.ca> wrote:
On Jul 6, 7:45 am, PD <TheDraperFam...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 5, 7:16 pm, "littlejoe" <little...@littlejoelittlejoe.lj>
wrote:
Is there any difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass ?
None, if the inertial mass is at rest. :>)
Very little, if the mass's motion is much less than c, which is why
classical mechanics makes no distinction.
The difference becomes noticeable once you find out that your
cyclotron doesn't deliver particles with the momentum you expected it
would using a classical mechanics design.
PD
What % of c has your cyclotron achieved 4 ur particles 2 date?
john
LEP about 10 years ago routinely accelerated particles to a
relativistic gamma factor of 175,000 which corresponds to
99.999999998% of c.
This by the way is well, well past the line where the difference
becomes noticeable.
PD
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| User: "Sue..." |
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| Title: Re: Difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass |
07 Jul 2007 05:59:26 AM |
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On Jul 5, 9:16 pm, "littlejoe" <little...@littlejoelittlejoe.lj>
wrote:
Is there any difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass ?
(My guestimate says yes, but I'm not sure)
A related question you did not ask, may draw fire
from Uglymouth Al, but there is strong support
to consider the gravitational mechnism no different
than the inertial mechansim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_principle
Sue...
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| User: "Greg Neill" |
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| Title: Re: Difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass |
07 Jul 2007 09:03:07 AM |
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"Sue..." <suzysewnshow@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:1183805966.350804.132590@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 5, 9:16 pm, "littlejoe" <little...@littlejoelittlejoe.lj>
wrote:
Is there any difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass ?
(My guestimate says yes, but I'm not sure)
A related question you did not ask, may draw fire
from Uglymouth Al, but there is strong support
to consider the gravitational mechnism no different
than the inertial mechansim.
Define "mechanism" in this context. And you forgot
to state the question.
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| User: "Sue..." |
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| Title: Re: Difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass |
07 Jul 2007 11:25:04 AM |
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On Jul 7, 11:03 am, "Greg Neill" <gneill...@OVEsympatico.ca> wrote:
"Sue..." <suzysewns...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:1183805966.350804.132590@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 5, 9:16 pm, "littlejoe" <little...@littlejoelittlejoe.lj>
wrote:
Is there any difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass ?
(My guestimate says yes, but I'm not sure)
A related question you did not ask, may draw fire
from Uglymouth Al, but there is strong support
to consider the gravitational mechnism no different
than the inertial mechansim.
Define "mechanism" in this context. And you forgot
to state the question.
The subsequent discourse makes it more apparent
the original post concerned "relativistic mass".
Unasked was:
~is gravity and inertia the same thing? ~
Einstein offers no mechanism for gravity
but suggest it is *fundamental* to inertia in
spite of the fact that his equations derive
gravity from inertia.
<< Newton recognized that the
law of inertia is unsatisfactory
in a context so far unmentioned in this
exposition, namely that it gives no
real cause for the special physical
position of the states of motion of the
inertial frames relative to all other
states of motion. It makes the observable
material bodies responsible for the
gravitational behaviour of a material
point, yet indicates no material cause
for the inertial behaviour of the material
point but devises the cause for it
(absolute space or inertial ether). This
is not logically inadmissible although
it is unsatisfactory. For this reason
E. Mach demanded a modification of the
law of inertia in the sense that the
inertia should be interpreted as an
acceleration resistance of the bodies
against one another and not against "space".
This interpretation governs the expectation
that accelerated bodies have concordant
accelerating action in the same
sense on other bodies (acceleration induction).
This interpretation is even more
plausible according to general relativity
which eliminates the distinction between
inertial and gravitational effects.
It amounts to stipulating that, apart
from the arbitrariness governed by the
free choice of coordinates, the
gm v -field shall be completely determined
by the matter. Mach's stipulation is favoured
in general relativity by the circumstance
that acceleration induction in accordance
with the gravitational field equations really
exists, although of such slight intensity
that direct detection by mechanical experiments
is out of the question. >>
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1921/einstein-lecture.html
If you socks work OK when you wear them inside-out
we can't complain too much that Einstiein put the
cart before the horse.
But to keep the derivation from being circular it is
sometimes helpful to see what the horse might
look like. This is one of that better toy model
mechanisms that takes a stab at unifying
gravity and electrodynamics on a fundamental
level.
http://www.mypage.bluewin.ch/Bizarre/GRAV.htm
Sue...
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| User: "Sue..." |
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| Title: Re: Difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass |
07 Jul 2007 05:42:48 AM |
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On Jul 5, 9:16 pm, "littlejoe" <little...@littlejoelittlejoe.lj>
wrote:
Is there any difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass ?
(My guestimate says yes, but I'm not sure)
If you heat a bowl of soup by shooting a bullet into it
and the soup isn't quite hot enough for your taste.
....then you will shoot a bullet that is hotter, heavier
or hastier the next time you decide to warm soup
by this method.
<< The principle of relativity requires that the law
of the conservation of energy should hold not only
with reference to a co-ordinate system K, but
also with respect to every co-ordinate system K'
which is in a state of uniform motion of translation
relative to K, or, briefly, relative to every "Galileian"
system of co-ordinates. In contrast to classical
mechanics, the Lorentz transformation is the
deciding factor in the transition from one such
system to another. >>
http://www.bartleby.com/173/15.html
IOW you can *assume* a bullet is heavier
even tho' you may, in reality, use more
gunpower or preheat the bullet to effect
a hotter bowl of soup.
Sue...
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass |
05 Jul 2007 07:24:20 PM |
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littlejoe wrote:
Is there any difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass ?
(My guestimate says yes, but I'm not sure)
What is rest mass? How to explain it especially to the high school students?
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae161.cfm
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| User: "littlejoe" |
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| Title: Re: Difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass |
05 Jul 2007 09:04:24 PM |
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"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:UYfji.196242$_c5.77203@attbi_s22...
littlejoe wrote:
Is there any difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass ?
(My guestimate says yes, but I'm not sure)
What is rest mass? How to explain it especially to the high school students?
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae161.cfm
It says:
"the 'rest mass' of an object is the inertial mass that an object has when it is at rest"
and
"an object's true mass is given by the expression m = m0 / sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)
where m0 is its mass at rest, v is its velocity, c is the speed of light".
What's then the difference between inertial mass and relativistic mass?
And what is the exact definition of "being at rest"?
Is it relative or absolute? Measured from which frame of reference?
If 2 frames of reference are moving with the same velocity,
are they then "at rest"?
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass |
05 Jul 2007 09:14:53 PM |
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littlejoe wrote:
What's then the difference between inertial mass and relativistic mass?
Relativistic Mass
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/RelativisticMass.html
Rest Mass (inertial mass)
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/RestMass.html
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| User: "littlejoe" |
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| Title: Re: Difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass |
05 Jul 2007 09:37:20 PM |
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"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:xAhji.15986$Fc.7643@attbi_s21...
littlejoe wrote:
What's then the difference between inertial mass and relativistic mass?
Relativistic Mass
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/RelativisticMass.html
Rest Mass (inertial mass)
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/RestMass.html
Hmmm. are you meaning rest mass is the inertial mass?
I'm primarily interessted in the definitions according to classical mechanics.
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| User: "greysky" |
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| Title: Re: Difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass |
07 Jul 2007 01:10:15 AM |
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"littlejoe" <littlejoe@littlejoelittlejoe.lj> wrote in message
news:f6k9tf$4t8$1@aioe.org...
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:xAhji.15986$Fc.7643@attbi_s21...
littlejoe wrote:
What's then the difference between inertial mass and relativistic mass?
Relativistic Mass
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/RelativisticMass.html
Rest Mass (inertial mass)
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/RestMass.html
Hmmm. are you meaning rest mass is the inertial mass?
I'm primarily interessted in the definitions according to classical
mechanics.
Hmmm... a large part of the 'rest mass' of a proton, for example, is derived
by the relativistic motion of the particles that make it up. A reason why
the electron is so light, according to this thinking, is because it is truly
fundamental, and its mass is derived solely by interaction with the Higgs
mechanism. So, what is rest mass, and how does it differ from relativistic
mass? Have an idea? Then throw your coin into the ring and contribute.
Greysky
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| User: "malibu" |
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| Title: Re: Difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass |
07 Jul 2007 10:34:52 AM |
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On Jul 7, 12:10 am, "greysky" <grey...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
"littlejoe" <little...@littlejoelittlejoe.lj> wrote in message
news:f6k9tf$4t8$1@aioe.org...
"Sam Wormley" <sworml...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:xAhji.15986$Fc.7643@attbi_s21...
littlejoe wrote:
What's then the difference between inertial mass and relativistic mass?
Relativistic Mass
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/RelativisticMass.html
Rest Mass (inertial mass)
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/RestMass.html
Hmmm. are you meaning rest mass is the inertial mass?
I'm primarily interessted in the definitions according to classical
mechanics.
Hmmm... a large part of the 'rest mass' of a proton, for example, is derived
by the relativistic motion of the particles that make it up. A reason why
the electron is so light, according to this thinking, is because it is truly
fundamental, and its mass is derived solely by interaction with the Higgs
mechanism. So, what is rest mass, and how does it differ from relativistic
mass? Have an idea? Then throw your coin into the ring and contribute.
Greysky
Ideas? Lots but you won't like them.
There is a steady flow of energy in all directions
through everything. There are actually
many different flows, especially cell phones around Earth, but
I am only talking about the energy responsible for
causing inertia and gravity and 'mass'.
This energy is taken in at a steady rate by protons
to keep them discrete. Protons are standing waves
where to move the energy in a different
way would require so much more energy that it
just doesn't happen, but they create electrons, which
radiate, and therefore protons steadily use energy at a
certain rate. This energy absorption, for a large
number of protons, takes place from all directions at once,
so 'rest mass' is equal from all directions.
So, briefly, to go on and describe
gravity, one interposes the planet,
which absorbs a part of the energy, leaving less
available so less 'push' from that direction.
So matter has less inertia in a planetary direction
and will move that way if unsupported.
Now increase the size of the planet so it
approaches absorption of all energy having an
outward impetus. (This will be impossible
with any curvature.)
The matter gains less and less mass as a
theoretical planet increases in size until it
is approaching but never getting to a limit.
THE MATTER DOES NOT ATTAIN INFINITE
MASS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.
A body's self-gravity approaches a limit
which is totally dependent on the steady flow
of energy in all directions through everything.
It can only be as large as ZERO energy coming
from the other direction.
Now, if instead of blocking all the flow
coming from one direction, we move the
mass in one direction faster and faster.
Apparently the faster one tries to move it,
the more energy is needed per increment in speed.
Is this in agreement with less energy
flow moving from behind and more energy flow
coming from in front?
Whatever.
John
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Difference between Rest Mass and Inertial Mass |
05 Jul 2007 09:45:44 PM |
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littlejoe wrote:
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:xAhji.15986$Fc.7643@attbi_s21...
littlejoe wrote:
What's then the difference between inertial mass and relativistic mass?
Relativistic Mass
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/RelativisticMass.html
Rest Mass (inertial mass)
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/RestMass.html
Hmmm. are you meaning rest mass is the inertial mass?
I'm primarily interessted in the definitions according to classical mechanics.
Since the term rest mass does not show up in classical mechanics, you
are interested in inertial mass. Newton's second law defines inertial
mass.
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/NewtonsSecondLaw.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass#Inertial_mass
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