Science > Physics > differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship
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Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Jack" |
| Date: |
27 Feb 2006 10:09:48 PM |
| Object: |
differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
Hi does anyone know where to find the 3 differential equations
describing the reactions between protons, neutrons and electrons,
perhaps by pointing me to them on the web ? I cannot find them !
Thank you,
Jack
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
28 Feb 2006 05:09:01 PM |
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Jack wrote:
Hi does anyone know where to find the 3 differential equations
describing the reactions between protons, neutrons and electrons,
perhaps by pointing me to them on the web ? I cannot find them !
Thank you,
Jack
There is a standard model Lagrangian.
Unfortunately, the equations of motion that stem from this Lagrangian
by the customary methods number a few more than 3.
I have no idea where you got the idea there were only 3. Was someone
pulling your leg? Was this discussion in a tavern?
PD
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
28 Feb 2006 10:15:19 PM |
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its THREE b/c its 1 differential equation EACH for the proton, neutron,
and electron. Does anyone know where to find these 3 equations ? I
am looking for the 'analog' version of them, not the quantum PHI ones.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Jack
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
01 Mar 2006 08:34:36 AM |
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Jack wrote:
its THREE b/c its 1 differential equation EACH for the proton, neutron,
and electron. Does anyone know where to find these 3 equations ? I
am looking for the 'analog' version of them, not the quantum PHI ones.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Jack
Sorry, your assumption is wrong.
Protons are characterized by engaging in three different interactions
in the standard model: strong, weak, electromagnetic.
Neutrons are characterized by engaging in two different interactions in
the standard model: strong and weak.
Electrons are characterized by engaging in two different interactions
in the standard model: weak and electromagnetic.
You can expect *at least* as many equations are there are interactions
for each particle.
But it is more complicated than that. For any system, the lagrangian
will provide an equation of motion (a differential equation) for *each
degree of freedom* the particle enjoys. I don't know where you got the
idea there is one differential equation for each particle. Even for the
photon (one interaction), Maxwell's equations represent 8 differential
equations.
PD
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
01 Mar 2006 08:05:04 PM |
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If I am wrong, why can't you produce the differential equations, thats
all I am asking for :) Also, Maxwel has PDE's not ODE's.... I am
looking for the ordinary differential equations - do you know what they
are or where on the web they are ? Again, cant find them..
Thanks,
Jack
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
01 Mar 2006 09:36:38 PM |
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Jack wrote:
If I am wrong, why can't you produce the differential equations, that[']s
all I am asking for :) Also, Maxwel has PDE's not ODE's.... I am
looking for the ordinary differential equations - do you know what they
are or where on the web they are ? Again, can[']t find them..
Thanks,
Jack
Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_equation
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
02 Mar 2006 07:29:34 AM |
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Sam Wormley wrote:
Jack wrote:
If I am wrong, why can't you produce the differential equations, that[']s
all I am asking for :) Also, Maxwel has PDE's not ODE's.... I am
looking for the ordinary differential equations - do you know what they
are or where on the web they are ? Again, can[']t find them..
Thanks,
Jack
Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_equation
Dang, PDE's! Foiled again!
PD
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
02 Mar 2006 10:49:56 PM |
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Thanks for the help..Let me clarify - I am seeking a more basic, non
quantum, set of differential equations.. so a basic equation that
describes the basic interaction (force of attraction / repulsion)
happening over time, as if it was as a simple Newtonian differential
equation for gravity ..
Thank you !
Jack
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| User: "srp" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
03 Mar 2006 11:26:58 AM |
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Jack a écrit :
Thanks for the help..Let me clarify - I am seeking a more basic, non
quantum, set of differential equations.. so a basic equation that
describes the basic interaction (force of attraction / repulsion)
happening over time, as if it was as a simple Newtonian differential
equation for gravity ..
Thank you !
Jack
I don't think they currently exist exactly as you wish.
From Newtonian (force interaction between masses) you can get closer
with relativistic newtonian equations (inserting the gamma factor
where it needs to be added in the classical equations, but even then,
the strict Newtonian approach does not come even close to explaining
stability orbital stability.
From classical electrodynamics, (force interaction between charges)
you do get closer inasmuch as both electrostatic attraction and
repulsion are addressed, but close range magnetic interaction is
not dealt with.
The only remaining domain involving "force" and addressing both
electric and magnetic interaction is electromagnetism, but it
has always been deemed impossible to apply Maxwell directly to
localized particles such as electrons, protons and neutrons as you
seem to wish. Even then, you would have to go righ down to quarks
up and down to "see" the underlying electric (and consequently also
the magnetic) aspect common to both proton and neutron.
André Michaud
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
04 Mar 2006 02:04:08 AM |
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Thanks Andre, great post.. Can you please point me to the classical
ODE's for electrodynamics or the gamma factor ones, and if not
possible, who are the equations names after so I can search for them on
the web ?
Thank you,
Jack
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
04 Mar 2006 02:07:01 AM |
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Another clarification, this is more of a mathematical exercise, I am
trying to ignore valid pysical and practical concerns ; I am more
curious about the mathematical landscape of the interactions. In other
words I am playing with math and am not hung up on the physical
realities. Too bad there isnt a set of ODE's that describes these
interactions at this level.
Regards !
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| User: "srp" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
04 Mar 2006 07:41:32 AM |
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Jack a écrit :
Another clarification, this is more of a mathematical exercise, I am
trying to ignore valid pysical and practical concerns ; I am more
curious about the mathematical landscape of the interactions. In other
words I am playing with math and am not hung up on the physical
realities. Too bad there isnt a set of ODE's that describes these
interactions at this level.
Regards !
My view is that you have the right attitude to develop them yourself
eventually.
However, I think that your only chance to succeed is, after having
wandered into all aspects of the virtual mathematical landscape to
saturation, you eventually do take into account physical reality.
Regards
André Michaud
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
04 Mar 2006 07:16:59 PM |
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Hi Andre, whats your email ? something at something .com ?
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
04 Mar 2006 02:07:06 AM |
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Another clarification, this is more of a mathematical exercise, I am
trying to ignore valid pysical and practical concerns ; I am more
curious about the mathematical landscape of the interactions. In other
words I am playing with math and am not hung up on the physical
realities. Too bad there isnt a set of ODE's that describes these
interactions at this level.
Regards !
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| User: "srp" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
04 Mar 2006 07:37:18 AM |
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Jack a écrit :
Thanks Andre, great post.. Can you please point me to the classical
ODE's for electrodynamics or the gamma factor ones, and if not
possible, who are the equations names after so I can search for them on
the web ?
Thank you,
Jack
Hi Jack. Happy to see that my few comments were meaningful to you.
The best starting set to explore from is the same set that
Maxwell used to build his theory, namely the Gauss equations, the
Faraday and Ampere equations, also the Biot-Savart equation and
Lorentz force equation.
The set as integrated by Maxwell is quite nice, and all of this is
available in good textbooks. I personally prefer Halliday and Resnick
"Physics". But as they stand, they do not hint at how to integrate
them to all directly apply to local particles such as electron, proton
and neutron because they do not treat that charge as being quantized
in reality. The first lead on how to actually associate charge
quantization came from de Broglie, but nothing about it is available
in English.
The only link I could refer you to that would give you hints at what
can be done by quantizing charge in these equations that could help
you build yourself eventually the set you want and also linking
the gamma with fields is a little paper I did myself last year to
build on a quite nice approach to defining the relativistic magnetic
field of moving electrons by physicist Paul Marmet (the URL to the
Marmet paper is mentionned in the References section).
http://pages.globetrotter.net/srp/discrete_electromagnetic_fields.pdf
If this speaks to you, then the book that this is extracted from is
available on amazon.
André Michaud
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
27 Mar 2006 08:31:54 AM |
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Who can create these differential equations if i pay them ?
thanks,
Jack
srp wrote:
Jack a =E9crit :
Thanks Andre, great post.. Can you please point me to the classical
ODE's for electrodynamics or the gamma factor ones, and if not
possible, who are the equations names after so I can search for them on
the web ?
Thank you,
Jack
Hi Jack. Happy to see that my few comments were meaningful to you.
The best starting set to explore from is the same set that
Maxwell used to build his theory, namely the Gauss equations, the
Faraday and Ampere equations, also the Biot-Savart equation and
Lorentz force equation.
The set as integrated by Maxwell is quite nice, and all of this is
available in good textbooks. I personally prefer Halliday and Resnick
"Physics". But as they stand, they do not hint at how to integrate
them to all directly apply to local particles such as electron, proton
and neutron because they do not treat that charge as being quantized
in reality. The first lead on how to actually associate charge
quantization came from de Broglie, but nothing about it is available
in English.
The only link I could refer you to that would give you hints at what
can be done by quantizing charge in these equations that could help
you build yourself eventually the set you want and also linking
the gamma with fields is a little paper I did myself last year to
build on a quite nice approach to defining the relativistic magnetic
field of moving electrons by physicist Paul Marmet (the URL to the
Marmet paper is mentionned in the References section).
http://pages.globetrotter.net/srp/discrete_electromagnetic_fields.pdf
If this speaks to you, then the book that this is extracted from is
available on amazon.
=20
Andr=E9 Michaud
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
27 Mar 2006 08:32:01 AM |
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Who can create these differential equations if i pay them ?
thanks,
Jack
srp wrote:
Jack a =E9crit :
Thanks Andre, great post.. Can you please point me to the classical
ODE's for electrodynamics or the gamma factor ones, and if not
possible, who are the equations names after so I can search for them on
the web ?
Thank you,
Jack
Hi Jack. Happy to see that my few comments were meaningful to you.
The best starting set to explore from is the same set that
Maxwell used to build his theory, namely the Gauss equations, the
Faraday and Ampere equations, also the Biot-Savart equation and
Lorentz force equation.
The set as integrated by Maxwell is quite nice, and all of this is
available in good textbooks. I personally prefer Halliday and Resnick
"Physics". But as they stand, they do not hint at how to integrate
them to all directly apply to local particles such as electron, proton
and neutron because they do not treat that charge as being quantized
in reality. The first lead on how to actually associate charge
quantization came from de Broglie, but nothing about it is available
in English.
The only link I could refer you to that would give you hints at what
can be done by quantizing charge in these equations that could help
you build yourself eventually the set you want and also linking
the gamma with fields is a little paper I did myself last year to
build on a quite nice approach to defining the relativistic magnetic
field of moving electrons by physicist Paul Marmet (the URL to the
Marmet paper is mentionned in the References section).
http://pages.globetrotter.net/srp/discrete_electromagnetic_fields.pdf
If this speaks to you, then the book that this is extracted from is
available on amazon.
=20
Andr=E9 Michaud
.
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
03 Mar 2006 09:37:30 AM |
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Jack wrote:
Thanks for the help..Let me clarify - I am seeking a more basic, non
quantum, set of differential equations.. so a basic equation that
describes the basic interaction (force of attraction / repulsion)
happening over time, as if it was as a simple Newtonian differential
equation for gravity ..
Thank you !
Jack
AFAIK, no simple Newtonian ODE's for fundamental particles exist.
They simply are more complicated than that. If you were to try to posit
such equations, you would find that they do not work well to properly
describe their behavior. This is why the more complex methods are
required.
PD
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
02 Mar 2006 11:01:48 PM |
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Jack wrote:
Thanks for the help..Let me clarify - I am seeking a more basic, non
quantum, set of differential equations.. so a basic equation that
describes the basic interaction (force of attraction / repulsion)
happening over time, as if it was as a simple Newtonian differential
equation for gravity ..
Thank you !
Jack
But these post should be telling you that you can't make any
progress without the quantum mechanics!
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| User: "Puppet_Sock" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
03 Mar 2006 12:36:50 PM |
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Jack wrote:
Thanks for the help..Let me clarify - I am seeking a more basic, non
quantum, set of differential equations.. so a basic equation that
describes the basic interaction (force of attraction / repulsion)
happening over time, as if it was as a simple Newtonian differential
equation for gravity ..
When I dream, I have a pony.
Socks
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| User: "Igor" |
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| Title: Re: differential equations for the proton, neutron and electron relationship |
28 Feb 2006 02:39:21 PM |
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Look up the standard model of particle physics.
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