| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Potte" |
| Date: |
06 Apr 2005 05:56:15 AM |
| Object: |
Dirac sea of particles |
Many know Dirac sea of particles where the vacuum is allegedly
composed of negative energy states. When photon knocked an
electron from that sea of negative energy and left a hole where
the electron had been. That hole represented a missing negative
charge in the sea of negative energy and appeared to us as a
positive electron.
I have some trouble comprehending the above concepts.
1. Did this knocking of the electron from the sea occur aons
ago producing all the electrons now or does it happen every few
seconds in real time now??
2. Where did the photon came from that knock the electron from
the Dirac sea??
3. How come we can't measure the properties of the negative sea?
Don't they have negative charges?
4. If a sea of negative energy has hole with missing negative
charge... how can it produce positron... you can't always apply
mathematics in objective reality such as saying that you own
money to others and have negative money, then when you lose
your negative money, you gain positive cash.
5. How many percentage of physicists believe about Dirac's
Sea?
P
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| User: "FrediFizzx" |
|
| Title: Re: Dirac sea of particles |
07 Apr 2005 02:44:35 AM |
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"Potte" <photonmanual@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1112784975.031945.246670@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
|
| Many know Dirac sea of particles where the vacuum is allegedly
| composed of negative energy states. When photon knocked an
| electron from that sea of negative energy and left a hole where
| the electron had been. That hole represented a missing negative
| charge in the sea of negative energy and appeared to us as a
| positive electron.
|
| I have some trouble comprehending the above concepts.
Quantum Field Theory tried to do away with this concept for similar
reasons but they still end up with math that represents virtual
particles. But IMHO, it is fixable. The first thing that has to happen
is to get rid of the impossible negative energy states. Second, only
allow certain possible positive energy states that are determined by the
geometry of the sea particles interactions. Third, the sea has to be
existing in a dual space-time situation from ours so that our zero is
still zero macroscopically. Well, even Dirac's original sea is a dual
space-time concept.
| 1. Did this knocking of the electron from the sea occur aons
| ago producing all the electrons now or does it happen every few
| seconds in real time now??
|
| 2. Where did the photon came from that knock the electron from
| the Dirac sea??
|
| 3. How come we can't measure the properties of the negative sea?
| Don't they have negative charges?
It is an interpretation problem. Don't think of it as a "negative sea"
because if you had a negative energy sea, it wouldn't be bounded from
below. It is just a different space-time and has positive energy.
| 4. If a sea of negative energy has hole with missing negative
| charge... how can it produce positron... you can't always apply
| mathematics in objective reality such as saying that you own
| money to others and have negative money, then when you lose
| your negative money, you gain positive cash.
Forget about the negative charge. The sea has both negative and
positive charge microscopically. Net charge is zero macroscopically.
| 5. How many percentage of physicists believe about Dirac's
| Sea?
Well, in particle physics textbooks you still see them talking about sea
quarks, etc. Though probably not specifically Dirac's sea. I have
discussed with experimentalists and theorists that both believe virtual
particles are real. Take a look in Volovik's "The Universe in a Helium
Droplet" for some good analogies with the quantum "vacuum". You can
also take a look at the link below for our naive concept of this. Take
"vacuum" polarization up to tree level then space-time charge = +,-
sqrt(hbar*c) rules baby!
FrediFizzx
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
.
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| User: "John C. Polasek" |
|
| Title: Re: Dirac sea of particles |
07 Apr 2005 08:53:54 AM |
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On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 00:44:35 -0700, "FrediFizzx"
<fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Potte" <photonmanual@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1112784975.031945.246670@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
|
| Many know Dirac sea of particles where the vacuum is allegedly
| composed of negative energy states. When photon knocked an
| electron from that sea of negative energy and left a hole where
| the electron had been. That hole represented a missing negative
| charge in the sea of negative energy and appeared to us as a
| positive electron.
|
| I have some trouble comprehending the above concepts.
Quantum Field Theory tried to do away with this concept for similar
reasons but they still end up with math that represents virtual
particles. But IMHO, it is fixable. The first thing that has to happen
is to get rid of the impossible negative energy states. Second, only
allow certain possible positive energy states that are determined by the
geometry of the sea particles interactions. Third, the sea has to be
existing in a dual space-time situation from ours so that our zero is
still zero macroscopically. Well, even Dirac's original sea is a dual
space-time concept.
| 1. Did this knocking of the electron from the sea occur aons
| ago producing all the electrons now or does it happen every few
| seconds in real time now??
|
| 2. Where did the photon came from that knock the electron from
| the Dirac sea??
|
| 3. How come we can't measure the properties of the negative sea?
| Don't they have negative charges?
It is an interpretation problem. Don't think of it as a "negative sea"
because if you had a negative energy sea, it wouldn't be bounded from
below. It is just a different space-time and has positive energy.
| 4. If a sea of negative energy has hole with missing negative
| charge... how can it produce positron... you can't always apply
| mathematics in objective reality such as saying that you own
| money to others and have negative money, then when you lose
| your negative money, you gain positive cash.
Forget about the negative charge. The sea has both negative and
positive charge microscopically. Net charge is zero macroscopically.
| 5. How many percentage of physicists believe about Dirac's
| Sea?
Well, in particle physics textbooks you still see them talking about sea
quarks, etc. Though probably not specifically Dirac's sea. I have
discussed with experimentalists and theorists that both believe virtual
particles are real.
The virtual particles in Espace are real electrons and positrons, but
have not been CREATED yet, not while confined to my cell size of
3.5e-14m. They become real, created when an electron is freed from the
cell. At that time the positron becomes real and created also. JP
Take a look in Volovik's "The Universe in a Helium
Droplet" for some good analogies with the quantum "vacuum". You can
also take a look at the link below for our naive concept of this. Take
"vacuum" polarization up to tree level then space-time charge = +,-
sqrt(hbar*c) rules baby!
FrediFizzx
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
Mr. Dual Space
If you have something to say, write an equation.
If you have nothing to say, write an essay
.
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| User: "Nick Rouse" |
|
| Title: Re: Dirac sea of particles |
06 Apr 2005 09:06:47 AM |
|
|
"Potte" <photonmanual@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1112784975.031945.246670@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>...
Many know Dirac sea of particles where the vacuum is allegedly
composed of negative energy states. When photon knocked an
electron from that sea of negative energy and left a hole where
the electron had been. That hole represented a missing negative
charge in the sea of negative energy and appeared to us as a
positive electron.
I have some trouble comprehending the above concepts.
1. Did this knocking of the electron from the sea occur aons
ago producing all the electrons now or does it happen every few
seconds in real time now??
2. Where did the photon came from that knock the electron from
the Dirac sea??
3. How come we can't measure the properties of the negative sea?
Don't they have negative charges?
4. If a sea of negative energy has hole with missing negative
charge... how can it produce positron... you can't always apply
mathematics in objective reality such as saying that you own
money to others and have negative money, then when you lose
your negative money, you gain positive cash.
5. How many percentage of physicists believe about Dirac's
Sea?
P
Identical results can be obtained by considering positrons
the "real" particles and electrons just holes in a sea
of positrons. This shows the pitfalls of speculation about
the absolute reality of strictly unobservable entities.
Nick Rouse
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| User: "John C. Polasek" |
|
| Title: Re: Dirac sea of particles |
06 Apr 2005 09:24:31 AM |
|
|
On 6 Apr 2005 03:56:15 -0700, "Potte" <photonmanual@yahoo.com> wrote:
Many know Dirac sea of particles where the vacuum is allegedly
composed of negative energy states. When photon knocked an
electron from that sea of negative energy and left a hole where
the electron had been. That hole represented a missing negative
charge in the sea of negative energy and appeared to us as a
positive electron.
I have some trouble comprehending the above concepts.
1. Did this knocking of the electron from the sea occur aons
ago producing all the electrons now or does it happen every few
seconds in real time now??
The particle sea has both e- and e+. Knocking an electron out occurs
only at time of creation. Science has no way to eject just the
electron without a mirror ejection by the positron.
2. Where did the photon came from that knock the electron from
the Dirac sea??
What started creation?
3. How come we can't measure the properties of the negative sea?
Don't they have negative charges?
No, it's all pairs co-located such that the net charge is zero.
4. If a sea of negative energy has hole with missing negative
charge... how can it produce positron... you can't always apply
mathematics in objective reality such as saying that you own
money to others and have negative money, then when you lose
your negative money, you gain positive cash.
It contains both particles.
5. How many percentage of physicists believe about Dirac's
Sea?
My permittivity paper (see your other note) is the first and only
exposition of the contents of Dirac's Sea. The reason for this
ignorance is that most physicists believe in CGS theory in which
permittivity is cast aside as a nullity, but permittivity is the
window that allows the analysis in my paper.
P
Mr. Dual Space
If you have something to say, write an equation.
If you have nothing to say, write an essay
.
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| User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher" |
|
| Title: Re: Dirac sea of particles |
06 Apr 2005 06:22:41 AM |
|
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Potte wrote:
Many know Dirac sea of particles where the vacuum is allegedly
composed of negative energy states.
And all people actually working in QFT know also that this is an
outdated idea.
When photon knocked an
electron from that sea of negative energy and left a hole where
the electron had been. That hole represented a missing negative
charge in the sea of negative energy and appeared to us as a
positive electron.
I have some trouble comprehending the above concepts.
1. Did this knocking of the electron from the sea occur aons
ago producing all the electrons now or does it happen every few
seconds in real time now??
Both.
2. Where did the photon came from that knock the electron from
the Dirac sea??
From whatever source you like.
3. How come we can't measure the properties of the negative sea?
Don't they have negative charges?
Dirac argued that these charges are everywhere, homogeneously
distributed, so that every effect caused by the charges cancels out.
4. If a sea of negative energy has hole with missing negative
charge... how can it produce positron...
You just explained the idea in your first paragraphs above: a
hole in a sea of negative particles looks (behaves) like a positive
particle.
you can't always apply
mathematics in objective reality such as saying that you own
money to others and have negative money, then when you lose
your negative money, you gain positive cash.
What's your problem with that application of math?
5. How many percentage of physicists believe about Dirac's
Sea?
Probably a lot of physicists who haven't learned better still
think it's a valid idea. But physicists who learned QFT know
that it is an outdated idea.
Bye,
Bjoern
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