| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"wg" |
| Date: |
22 Apr 2006 08:53:01 PM |
| Object: |
division by zero [infinities] |
Renormalization;
While it works, most mathematicians and physicists feel uncomfortable
about using it to get rid of infinities. Richard Feynmann calls it a
dippy process without much solid mathematical basis.
Infinites arise of course by division by 0, which leads to an undefined
answer.
But wait a second; we live in a mathematical universe, math simply
works and is explanatory to the highest degree of precision. Every
aspect of the universe grinds to the precision of math. Why does math
work so well for everything ...but lets us down for this one anomaly
which is division by zero....
Have we got something wrong here, should we be looking at the concept
of zero a little differently?
This is where I'm going to step out on a limb and suggest something
radical.
In the quantum world there is no such thing as zero, only minimum
quantities [i.e. Plank quantities].
Let me explain.
In pure math A-A=0 of course, but we do not live in a pure math world,
we live in a quantum world where heisenburgs uncertainty principle
[HUP] comes into play. In our real world all quantities are measured
quantities and have units associated with them. Because of HUP any
measurement has a degree of uncertainty and can never be known with
complete accuracy at some level.
Take for example a measurement of distance on a line graph;
1 meter - 1 meter = 0 correct???
Wrong. In quantum mechanics one can never know on the line graph where
the meter starts closer than one Plank length [1.6160 x 10-35 m]. One
can never know where that 1 meter measurement ends to within 1 Plank
length. Subtraction results in the same conundrum. The answer 1M-1M can
never be less than the unknown we started with i.e. [1 Plank length].
This argument applies to all of measurement since there is a Plank
time, Plank mass and a Plank value for every measurement one can do.
Another possible way to obtain a zero in math is to subtract objects
not measurements. For example say one has an object sitting on a table
and take away that object. 1 apple - 1 apple = 0 apples, correct?
This is certainly true in Newtonian space, but in the quantum universe
HUP introduces a degree of uncertainty to even an apple on a table. HUP
states position and Momentum [and conversely, time and energy] cannot
be know to exact precision at some level.
Also in Einsteins Space time one has to consider non locality,
entanglement and Bells theorem. While one can remove the apple in
Newtonian space, one can never remove all traces of the apple in
Einsteins space time. At some level the apple has left its signature on
the universe from that point [position and time] and continue to effect
the universe from that point on. There has to be a minimum effect [i.e.
Plank quantity].
It seems something of a coincidence that string theory which has been
so successful at eliminating infinities, has done so by constructing
strings which have dimensions roughly equal to Plank dimensions.
Minimum dimensions appear to have done the trick here!
So my challenge to mathematicians and physicists is simple...
-Dust off your favorite unsolvable equation [due to infinities]
-look up the dimensional units associated with [that led to zero]
-plug in minimum values [Plank quantities]
-solve
You will find it works.
WG
Addendum;
Pure Math for the most part deals with the manipulation of unit less
pure numbers and symbols, and it is here that we may frequently
experience infinities [division by zero].
But in the real quantum universe we observe no infinities so it should
follow that there can be no divisions by zero in applied math.
Since infinities can't be dealt with, the problem must reside in our
use of zero.
It appears Quantum mechanics and HUP may provide a solution to this
dilemma.
.
|
|
| User: "Hexenmeister" |
|
| Title: Re: division by zero [infinities] |
23 Apr 2006 05:44:55 AM |
|
|
"wg" <wgilmour@i-zoom.net> wrote in message =
news:1145757181.262319.218160@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Renormalization;
| While it works, most mathematicians and physicists feel uncomfortable
| about using it to get rid of infinities. Richard Feynmann calls it a
| dippy process without much solid mathematical basis.
|=20
| Infinites arise of course by division by 0, which leads to an =
undefined
| answer.
Ok...
| But wait a second; we live in a mathematical universe, math simply
| works and is explanatory to the highest degree of precision.
| Every
| aspect of the universe grinds to the precision of math. Why does math
| work so well for everything ...but lets us down for this one anomaly
| which is division by zero....
| Have we got something wrong here,=20
No.
| should we be looking at the concept
| of zero a little differently?
There are no oranges in my bag of apples. The ratio of
apples to oranges is 7:0.
There are no cherries in my bag of apples. The ratio of
apples to cherries is 7:0.
Therefore there are as many oranges as there are cherries,
7/0 =3D 7/0
GIGO.
What we should do is not be stupid, but some people can't help it.
|=20
| This is where I'm going to step out on a limb and suggest something
| radical.
| In the quantum world there is no such thing as zero, only minimum
| quantities [i.e. Plank quantities].
What we should do is not be stupid, but some people can't help it.
|=20
| Let me explain.
| In pure math A-A=3D0 of course, but we do not live in a pure math =
world,
| we live in a quantum world where heisenburgs uncertainty principle
| [HUP] comes into play.=20
Who is "we"?
| In our real world all quantities are measured
| quantities and have units associated with them. Because of HUP any
| measurement has a degree of uncertainty and can never be known with
| complete accuracy at some level.
| Take for example a measurement of distance on a line graph;
| 1 meter - 1 meter =3D 0 correct???
Yes, 1 meter - 1 meter =3D no apples (and no cherries and no plums).
| Wrong.=20
Prove it.
| In quantum mechanics one can never know on the line graph where
| the meter starts closer than one Plank length [1.6160 x 10-35 m]. One
| can never know where that 1 meter measurement ends to within 1 Plank
| length. Subtraction results in the same conundrum. The answer 1M-1M =
can
| never be less than the unknown we started with i.e. [1 Plank length].
| This argument applies to all of measurement since there is a Plank
| time, Plank mass and a Plank value for every measurement one can do.
What we should do is not be stupid, but some people can't help it.
| Another possible way to obtain a zero in math is to subtract objects
| not measurements. For example say one has an object sitting on a table
| and take away that object. 1 apple - 1 apple =3D 0 apples, correct?
Nope. 1 apple - 1 apple =3D 0 meters (and no inches and no hours).
| This is certainly true in Newtonian space, but in the quantum universe
| HUP introduces a degree of uncertainty to even an apple on a table. =
HUP
| states position and Momentum [and conversely, time and energy] cannot
| be know to exact precision at some level.
| Also in Einsteins Space time one has to consider non locality,
| entanglement and Bells theorem.=20
Einstein didn't invent spacetime, that was invented by Taylor and =
Wheeler.
J K Rowling invented Harry Potter, Shakespeare invented Hamlet.
All great works of fiction are invented by someone. As far as physics =
goes,
they are all ZERO, nothing, zilch. They've made movies of Harry Potter
and Hamlet, I'm waiting for the screen version of spacetime. -- Oh wait,
there was "Back to the Future".
While one can remove the apple in
| Newtonian space, one can never remove all traces of the apple in
| Einsteins space time.
As I said, we shouldn't be so stupid. I've done my part, I am not =
stupid.
It's up to you to make it "we"
Androcles.
At some level the apple has left its signature on
| the universe from that point [position and time] and continue to =
effect
| the universe from that point on. There has to be a minimum effect =
[i.e.
| Plank quantity].
|=20
| It seems something of a coincidence that string theory which has been
| so successful at eliminating infinities, has done so by constructing
| strings which have dimensions roughly equal to Plank dimensions.
| Minimum dimensions appear to have done the trick here!
|=20
| So my challenge to mathematicians and physicists is simple...
| -Dust off your favorite unsolvable equation [due to infinities]
| -look up the dimensional units associated with [that led to zero]
| -plug in minimum values [Plank quantities]
| -solve
|=20
| You will find it works.
| WG
|=20
|=20
| Addendum;
| Pure Math for the most part deals with the manipulation of unit less
| pure numbers and symbols, and it is here that we may frequently
| experience infinities [division by zero].
| But in the real quantum universe we observe no infinities so it should
| follow that there can be no divisions by zero in applied math.
| Since infinities can't be dealt with, the problem must reside in our
| use of zero.
| It appears Quantum mechanics and HUP may provide a solution to this
| dilemma.
|
.
|
|
|
| User: "wg" |
|
| Title: Re: division by zero [infinities] |
23 Apr 2006 08:06:26 AM |
|
|
-- I,ve seen your posts before
-- Kindly stay off the thread
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "wg" |
|
| Title: Re: division by zero [infinities] |
23 Apr 2006 08:10:25 AM |
|
|
When one crosses the boundary between pure math [dimensionless] and
applied math [dimensional in a quantum universe] a new rule must be
invoked.
The former does not apply to the latter when it comes to zero
WG
http://home.i-zoom.net/~wgilmour/Cosmology%20and%20Evolution.html
.
|
|
|
| User: "Hexenmeister" |
|
| Title: Re: division by zero [infinities] |
23 Apr 2006 02:50:38 PM |
|
|
"wg" <wgilmour@i-zoom.net> wrote in message =
news:1145797825.438226.219990@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
| When one crosses the boundary between pure math [dimensionless] and
| applied math [dimensional in a quantum universe] a new rule must be
| invoked.
| The former does not apply to the latter when it comes to zero
|=20
| WG
When one babbles meaningless drivel one should should the ***** up.
Androcles.
|=20
| http://home.i-zoom.net/~wgilmour/Cosmology%20and%20Evolution.html
|
.
|
|
|
| User: "wg" |
|
| Title: Re: division by zero [infinities] |
23 Apr 2006 03:20:18 PM |
|
|
Androcles
uneducateable well known usenet crank
.
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|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: division by zero [infinities] |
23 Apr 2006 08:49:30 AM |
|
|
wg wrote:
When one crosses the boundary between pure math [dimensionless] and
applied math [dimensional in a quantum universe] a new rule must be
invoked.
The former does not apply to the latter when it comes to zero
WG
http://home.i-zoom.net/~wgilmour/Cosmology%20and%20Evolution.html
It is easy to get things mixed up, and I'm not saying that you did, but
consider this very mixed bag of concepts -
zero - in a mathematical sense.
zero - of something in a physical sense.
nonexistence - mathematical sense
nonexistence - physical sense
observability - physical sense
observability - no mathematical context
uniqueness -mathematical sense
uniqueness - physical sense
.
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|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: division by zero [infinities] |
22 Apr 2006 11:27:53 PM |
|
|
You call that "going out on a limb" ?
Try this one
1/2 * ( 1 Planck length ) = 1 planck length, or 0 Planck lengths.
Huh ?
1/2 * 1 = 1 or 0.
Pretty wierd stuff. Well, I'm going to out on that limb with you and
throw myself from it. Hopefully I'll land on my head.
.
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|
|
| User: "wg" |
|
| Title: Re: division by zero [infinities] |
23 Apr 2006 12:25:04 AM |
|
|
sorry!!!
no 0s allowed in the quantum universe
only 1s
0s only allowed in play math [read pure]
:)
.
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