Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time



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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "Perspicacious"
Date: 18 Aug 2005 10:38:51 AM
Object: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time
I have no interest in defending or critiquing Einstein's poorly
expressed if not grotesquely convoluted misrepresentations. Why
concern yourself with a muddled explanation of special relativity
when a clear exposition is readily available?
Einstein did indeed propagandize and dupe millions into thinking
that the essence of SR is all about his special and confusing
riddles. I reject Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and
time.
http://www.everythingimportant.org/relativity/special.pdf
.

User: "TomGee"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 22 Aug 2005 09:48:33 PM
Your sarcasm belies the importance of my message. If Paul Revere had
not sounded the alarm before the British reached the village, the
British would still rule the world and I would have been born into
slavery, most likely.
For you to put out a message of alarm about the terrorism in pursuit of
a religious/political agenda is so silly simply because you're too late
with it. To ignore the calls of alarm is to invite disaster in the
form of simple surprise. The government has just managed to ignore
citizen's calls to rescind the property takeovers by the
government/business/industrial complex, and while the gov. has not yet
publicy tore our limbs asunder and taken innocent lives, it's just a
matter of time for that to happen unless the warnings are taken
seriously.
When I came here to this ng, the terrorists ruled it and ran everyone
off but themselves. Few bothered to fight them tit for tat. Now you
see them running scared from the very few of us who dare to confront
their terrorist way. They are so stupid about what they do that they
don't know they're being terrorists because after all they haven't
killed you and me off yet, right?
Our gov. will throw more of our money away to relocate the Gaza Strip
jews while you and me worry about paying off our mortgage and
collecting our investment in social security benefits. The US will be
bankrupt by the time we leave Iraq, and it may well be that the Sunnis
will own it once again. All that loss of lives because we ignored
Saddam's call to "let the bloodshedding begin..." Generals are always
stupid in war and wars are won because the other side made horrendous
errors in judgement. But the ones who pay for their mistakes are the
soldiers who must do or die. In the meantime, we are being robbed
daily by the oil companies who have the gall to report massive earning
increases since we have been forced to pay more for fuel.
So yes, you're right in saying that Bilge's shitty behaviour is not the
same as what the terrorists did to the twin towers, but if we stop now
the games which the Bilges of today play, we will not have to fear
their real terrorism later, maybe. If we had listened more intently to
the situation brewing in the mideast instead of ignoring it in favor of
one party to the dispute, we may not be facing another 'nam today.
.
User: "bz"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 23 Aug 2005 06:33:54 AM
"TomGee" <lvlus@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1124765313.351998.193280
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

When I came here to this ng, the terrorists ruled it and ran everyone
off but themselves. Few bothered to fight them tit for tat. Now you
see them running scared from the very few of us who dare to confront
their terrorist way.

Trolls feed off of attention.
The best way to deal with them is to SILENTLY killfile them.
When their posts receive NO responses, they will go away.
--
bz
please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.
bz+sp@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 23 Aug 2005 06:51:07 AM
No I won't. Got a Plan B??????
.
User: "T Wake"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 23 Aug 2005 07:08:13 AM
yes
.




User: "Bilge"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 22 Aug 2005 10:08:03 PM
TomGee, heir apparent to the joseph mccarthy kingdom of FUD:

Schoenfeld, he's also a Terrorist who sends your responses to his posts
to alt.moron and claims he has the right to do that just like other
terrorists have the right to bomb us in defense of their right to be
terrorists.

GeeTom, that's fascinating. You are one of the few people who are
astute enough to realize that everyone who posts to usenet will
gladly let you tell them what they can and can't write in their posts
rather live in fear of you labelling them a terrorist for posting
something y which you object. I must say, that was a much simpler solution
for you than trying to post something relevant to this newsgroup.

He is no different than Min who spews his hatred of democratic rights
with his lies about his beloved republicans. He is not as literate as
Min though so he cannot make as good an argument about why he disagrees
with something as Min does.

That's even more fascinating. I didn't realize that not allowing you to
censor my posts was equivalent to a hatred for democracy. With your keen
understanding of such complex issues, you might be able to secure karl
rove's job if he's forced to accept a pardon and resign should the valerie
plame thing get beyond spin control. In preparation, you should have a
couple of rubber stamps made which reflect your unique world view and
talent for spinning a phrase, once you are in a position to tell people
what they can write in their usenet posts: CENSORED, CENSORDER, GUILTY and
GUILTYER. Using a crayon font here would be a nice way to add your
personal style.
.
User: "TomGee"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 24 Aug 2005 03:22:10 PM
Bilge wrote:

TomGee, heir apparent to the joseph mccarthy kingdom of FUD:

Schoenfeld, he's also a Terrorist who sends your responses to his posts
to alt.moron and claims he has the right to do that just like other
terrorists have the right to bomb us in defense of their right to be
terrorists.


GeeTom, that's fascinating. You are one of the few people who are
astute enough to realize that everyone who posts to usenet will
gladly let you tell them what they can and can't write in their posts
rather live in fear of you labelling them a terrorist for posting
something y which you object.


Not fascinating at all, idiot, since you're a liar. You're the one who
claims to have the right to decide what belongs where and the right to
send poster's replies to what you call appropriate ngs like alt.moron.
You're so stupid to think readers of a science ng are so brainless as
to not see through your *****. Just because you're so stupid
doesn't mean everyone else is too.
Exposing you as a terrorist for sending posts to alt.moron has nothing
to do with what you can or can't write in your posts, *****, as you
claim I'm doing. Write anything you want, who cares? You have in the
past so why stop now? Everyone knows the crap you post and we put up
with it because you have the right to make an ***** of yourself anytime
and anyway you wish. But you don't have the right to act like a Nazi
and send posts to where they don't belong. You have no right to
determine which post goes to alt.moron and other ngs like that. If you
think you're fooling anyone with your stupid defense of transferring
your crimes to me, that only shows the depth of your stupidity all the
more.



He is no different than Min who spews his hatred of democratic rights
with his lies about his beloved republicans. He is not as literate as
Min though so he cannot make as good an argument about why he disagrees
with something as Min does.


That's even more fascinating. I didn't realize that not allowing you to
censor my posts was equivalent to a hatred for democracy.


Liar. I would not and do not wish to censor your silly posts. I want
others to see the hatred you spew just to get your rocks off at our
expense. Your hatred of democratic rights is revealed by your
terrorist acts against those who reply to your posts. Do you really
think that others who read your defense - that you have the right to do
that - believe it's okay for you to do that to them and that I should
let you have your way? After all, why bother to hassle with an idiot?
Because you have spawned others who do the same, thinking it's oh so
cute to do that, and soon the ngs will be lost to people like you and
reason will fall by the wayside, and to lose these sci ngs would be a
shame.
You're so stupid to think you're not doing terrorist work and that
you're simply affirming your democratic right in using an error by
Google against posters. Stupid is as stupid does, idiot, but it's not
something you can hide from others.



With your keen
understanding of such complex issues, you might be able to secure karl
rove's job if he's forced to accept a pardon and resign should the valerie
plame thing get beyond spin control. In preparation, you should have a
couple of rubber stamps made which reflect your unique world view and
talent for spinning a phrase, once you are in a position to tell people
what they can write in their usenet posts: CENSORED, CENSORDER, GUILTY and
GUILTYER. Using a crayon font here would be a nice way to add your
personal style.


I don't need to hi-lite what you say, terrorist, your words do that all
by themselves to expose your lies. Now your stupidity is using your
mental defense of transference to try to claim that I am guilty of the
crimes you commit here of terrorism, but that doesn't fool anyone
except you.
Comes the revolution, you will be held accountable.
.
User: "Dirk Van de moortel"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 24 Aug 2005 03:40:26 PM
"TomGee" <lvlus@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1124914930.083992.301820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Bilge wrote:

TomGee, heir apparent to the joseph mccarthy kingdom of FUD:

Schoenfeld, he's also a Terrorist who sends your responses to his posts
to alt.moron and claims he has the right to do that just like other
terrorists have the right to bomb us in defense of their right to be
terrorists.


GeeTom, that's fascinating. You are one of the few people who are
astute enough to realize that everyone who posts to usenet will
gladly let you tell them what they can and can't write in their posts
rather live in fear of you labelling them a terrorist for posting
something y which you object.


Not fascinating at all, idiot, since you're a liar. You're the one who
claims to have the right to decide what belongs where and the right to
send poster's replies to what you call appropriate ngs like alt.moron.

Thomas, you really seem to have no idea how Usenet works.
Would you like me to explain it to you?
Dirk Vdm
.
User: "TomGee"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 24 Aug 2005 07:27:22 PM
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:

"TomGee" <lvlus@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1124914930.083992.301820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Bilge wrote:

TomGee, heir apparent to the joseph mccarthy kingdom of FUD:

Schoenfeld, he's also a Terrorist who sends your responses to his posts
to alt.moron and claims he has the right to do that just like other
terrorists have the right to bomb us in defense of their right to be
terrorists.


GeeTom, that's fascinating. You are one of the few people who are
astute enough to realize that everyone who posts to usenet will
gladly let you tell them what they can and can't write in their posts
rather live in fear of you labelling them a terrorist for posting
something y which you object.


Not fascinating at all, idiot, since you're a liar. You're the one who
claims to have the right to decide what belongs where and the right to
send poster's replies to what you call appropriate ngs like alt.moron.


Thomas, you really seem to have no idea how Usenet works.
Would you like me to explain it to you?


Here's ***** of ***** speaking up to defend his terrorist activity -
another idiot like Bilge who sends your posts to alt.morons. How much
more stupid can these idiots be? There must be a limit somewhere! One
would think there can exist only one so stupid as these two at a time.
They have revealed themselves to all who post here as complete
dumbbells, yet they continue on acting without a sign of the social
graces, who must their mommas have been! How ashamed they would be if
they could see what their sons consider proper behavior in the company
of the peoples of the world. Did they fail to show them how to be
happy in the midst of the world's unhappiness? Did they abuse them so
that they strike back not with a patriotic zeal but with a hatred of
their fellow human beings?
What horrid things were done to them that they will act this way? What
is the basis of their discontent that drives them on to commit acts of
virtual terrorism today and unrestricted acts of violence at their
first opportunity? We should all hope we are not near either one of
these misfits when they finally "lose it".
.
User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 24 Aug 2005 07:44:16 PM
"TomGee" <lvlus@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124929642.718344.172480@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
|
| Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
| > "TomGee" <lvlus@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124914930.083992.301820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| > > Bilge wrote:
| > > > TomGee, heir apparent to the joseph mccarthy kingdom of FUD:
| > > >
| > > > >Schoenfeld, he's also a Terrorist who sends your responses to
his posts
| > > > >to alt.moron and claims he has the right to do that just like
other
| > > > >terrorists have the right to bomb us in defense of their right
to be
| > > > >terrorists.
| > > >
| > > > GeeTom, that's fascinating. You are one of the few people who
are
| > > > astute enough to realize that everyone who posts to usenet will
| > > > gladly let you tell them what they can and can't write in their
posts
| > > > rather live in fear of you labelling them a terrorist for
posting
| > > > something y which you object.
| > > >
| > > >
| > > Not fascinating at all, idiot, since you're a liar. You're the
one who
| > > claims to have the right to decide what belongs where and the
right to
| > > send poster's replies to what you call appropriate ngs like
alt.moron.
| >
| > Thomas, you really seem to have no idea how Usenet works.
| > Would you like me to explain it to you?
| >
| >
| Here's ***** of ***** speaking up to defend his terrorist activity -
| another idiot like Bilge who sends your posts to alt.morons. How much
| more stupid can these idiots be? There must be a limit somewhere!
One
| would think there can exist only one so stupid as these two at a time.
| They have revealed themselves to all who post here as complete
| dumbbells, yet they continue on acting without a sign of the social
| graces, who must their mommas have been! How ashamed they would be if
| they could see what their sons consider proper behavior in the company
| of the peoples of the world. Did they fail to show them how to be
| happy in the midst of the world's unhappiness? Did they abuse them so
| that they strike back not with a patriotic zeal but with a hatred of
| their fellow human beings?
|
| What horrid things were done to them that they will act this way?
What
| is the basis of their discontent that drives them on to commit acts of
| virtual terrorism today and unrestricted acts of violence at their
| first opportunity? We should all hope we are not near either one of
| these misfits when they finally "lose it".
Well, at least you've glimmered moortel's intellectual capabilities.
I'm his favourite target, the other phuckwit Andersen, his bro that
is also a phuckwit, supports him.
Bilge I don't read, Andersen is at least civil. I supose it is unfair to
to call Andersen a phuckwit, he is really only a nitwit.
He may graduate to dimwit, but I doubt he'll ever reach halfwit.
Androcles
|
.

User: "Dirk Van de moortel"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 25 Aug 2005 12:22:36 PM
"TomGee" <lvlus@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1124929642.718344.172480@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


Dirk Van de moortel wrote:

"TomGee" <lvlus@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1124914930.083992.301820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Bilge wrote:

TomGee, heir apparent to the joseph mccarthy kingdom of FUD:

Schoenfeld, he's also a Terrorist who sends your responses to his posts
to alt.moron and claims he has the right to do that just like other
terrorists have the right to bomb us in defense of their right to be
terrorists.


GeeTom, that's fascinating. You are one of the few people who are
astute enough to realize that everyone who posts to usenet will
gladly let you tell them what they can and can't write in their posts
rather live in fear of you labelling them a terrorist for posting
something y which you object.


Not fascinating at all, idiot, since you're a liar. You're the one who
claims to have the right to decide what belongs where and the right to
send poster's replies to what you call appropriate ngs like alt.moron.


Thomas, you really seem to have no idea how Usenet works.
Would you like me to explain it to you?


Here's ***** of ***** speaking up to defend his terrorist activity -
another idiot like Bilge who sends your posts to alt.morons.

So you *really* don't get it?
And apparently you don't want me to explain it to you...
Okay, dabble on then - entertain us some more :-)
Dirk Vdm
.





User: "Thomas Smid"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 19 Aug 2005 03:15:15 PM
The error is as much with Einstein's interpretation of the Lorentz
transformation as with the latter itself. The whole confusion about
length contractions and time dilations stems from the circumstance that
the principle of a vectorial velocity addition (i.e. the Galilei
transformation) is assumed to be valid for light signals (contrary to
what experimental evidence suggests) and then this error is being
compensated by makink another and re-scaling the original length and
time units (see my webpage
http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/relativity.htm and links from there (in
particular http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/lightspeed.htm and
http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/timedilation.htm )).
Thomas
.
User: "Dirk Van de moortel"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 19 Aug 2005 03:35:52 PM
"Thomas Smid" <thomas.smid@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1124482515.653311.292120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

The error is as much with Einstein's interpretation of the Lorentz
transformation as with the latter itself. The whole confusion about
length contractions and time dilations stems from the circumstance that
the principle of a vectorial velocity addition (i.e. the Galilei
transformation) is assumed to be valid for light signals (contrary to
what experimental evidence suggests) and then this error is being
compensated by makink another and re-scaling the original length and
time units (see my webpage
http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/relativity.htm and links from there (in
particular http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/lightspeed.htm and
http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/timedilation.htm )).

Clearly vectorial velocity addition is not tied to the
Galilean transformation.
When one observer measures the velocities of two objects,
he uses vectorial addition or subtraction to find the so-called
closing velocity between the objects. The result is a vector
that tells how the distance between the objects as measured
by the observer, changes with time as measured by the observer.
This is valid in Galilean and in special relativity, and that is what
is used in Einstein's paper.
When an observer measures the velocity of another observer,
who in turn measures the velocity of some object, then vectorial
addition is not applicable to find the velocity of the object as
measured by the first observer. Finding the correct way to find
this, is what the paper is (partly) about.
About closing velocity (and speed), see for instance
http://hermes.physics.adelaide.edu.au/~dkoks/Faq/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/FTL.html#2
Perhaps this helps to shed some light on the possible
misconceptions you might be fighting on your webpage.
Dirk Vdm
.
User: "Thomas"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 20 Aug 2005 06:02:53 AM
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:

"Thomas Smid" <thomas.smid@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1124482515.653311.292120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

The error is as much with Einstein's interpretation of the Lorentz
transformation as with the latter itself. The whole confusion about
length contractions and time dilations stems from the circumstance that
the principle of a vectorial velocity addition (i.e. the Galilei
transformation) is assumed to be valid for light signals (contrary to
what experimental evidence suggests) and then this error is being
compensated by makink another and re-scaling the original length and
time units (see my webpage
http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/relativity.htm and links from there (in
particular http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/lightspeed.htm and
http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/timedilation.htm )).


Clearly vectorial velocity addition is not tied to the
Galilean transformation.

When one observer measures the velocities of two objects,
he uses vectorial addition or subtraction to find the so-called
closing velocity between the objects. The result is a vector
that tells how the distance between the objects as measured
by the observer, changes with time as measured by the observer.
This is valid in Galilean and in special relativity, and that is what
is used in Einstein's paper.

When an observer measures the velocity of another observer,
who in turn measures the velocity of some object, then vectorial
addition is not applicable to find the velocity of the object as
measured by the first observer. Finding the correct way to find
this, is what the paper is (partly) about.

About closing velocity (and speed), see for instance
http://hermes.physics.adelaide.edu.au/~dkoks/Faq/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/FTL.html#2

Perhaps this helps to shed some light on the possible
misconceptions you might be fighting on your webpage.

Dirk Vdm

You may have misunderstood my argument: I was not referring to the
addition theorem for velocities of two objects (which is merely a
consequence of the Lorentz transformation) but the addition of the
speed of light to the velocity of the light source or observer which is
used to *derive* the Lorentz transformation in the first place. If you
have a look at Einstein's derivation (see for instance the translation
of his 1905 paper under
http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/ ) then you will
find there expressions like c+v and c-v, that is the frame dependence
of the speed of light is being treated like that of ordinary objects
(i.e. like a Galilei transformation). Because this is obviously
contradictory to the experimental fact that c has to be independent of
the reference frame, Einstein then decided to override the definitions
of the original physical measuring units and re-scale time and space
such that c is formally invariant again whilst still maintaining the
vectorial velocity addition for light signals. This procedure is in my
view conceptually and logically flawed. Einstein should have realized
that it is not the concepts of time and space which have to be modified
but, naturally enough, the concept of 'speed' for light signals (see my
page http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/lightspeed.htm for more).
Thomas
.
User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 20 Aug 2005 08:02:54 AM
"Thomas" <thomas.smid@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124535773.243065.299400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
[snip]
Don't try to explain it to moortel, his IQ is less than 10,
he can't understand what you say, he's a troll and he says things
like

Discuss relativity?
With a load of crap like you?

http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/LoadCrap.html
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
You are about as funny as Wilson Rabbidge!

Dirk Vdm

Lock him away in a padded cell and he can scribble away all he likes.
On the court docket, Science v Einstein.
Judge:
"The defendant stands before this court accused of fraud. How does the
defendant plead?"
Defense counsel:
"Not guilty, your honour."
Prosecution opens:
Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, good morning.
Please reference: http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
The first transformation we are given is the Galilean,
x' = x-vt
y = y
z = z
t = t
You have to agree with that, Einstein states:
"If we place x'=x-vt, it is clear that a point at rest in the system k
must have a system of values x', y, z, independent of time."
We have completed the transform from the stationary system, K, to the
moving system which I'm going to name k' because Einstein doesn't give
it a name.
"Objection! cries defence counsel.
"Yes?" asks the judge.
"Prosecuting counsel is making up names!" exclaims defence counsel,
"my client has already named the system k."
"Why have you changed the name from k to k'?", the judge asks
prosecuting counsel.
Your honour, the name kappa (k) refers to the system of values xi, eta,
zeta,tau which are dependent upon velocity according to the accused
and should not be confused with the system of values x',y,z,t. I merely
chose a suitable name. If the court directs me to use another, I shall
abide by the court's wishes.
"Overruled, it is clear that Einstein gave no name to the system of
values x', y, z and I see no reason why prosecuting counsel should not
do so, do not waste the court's time on trivialities or I shall hold you
in contempt", says the judge.
Prosecution continues.
Applying the galilean function g(),
For all x in K, x' in k', (x',y,z,t) = g(x,y,z,t).
It is clear, so ist klar, in agreement with experience, it being
immediately apparent and because Einstein says so,
a point at rest in system k' is independent of time.
We have now completed the transformation from K to k' with the function
g, and can place system K on the back burner.
Now we come to the defendant's transformation.
Not Lorentz's, not Galileo's, but Einstein's.
For all x in k', xi in kappa, (xi, eta, zeta, tau) = cuckoo(x',y,z,t)
We have a second transformation from the moving system k' to the
moving system kappa.
Einstein would have you believe that
tau = cuckoo_tau(g(x,y,z,t))
xi = cuckoo_xi(g(x,y,z,t))
is called the "Lorentz transformation".
I call it the cuckoo transformation, there is no relative motion between
k' and kappa, the time in k' has been found to be x'/(c-v) and x'/(c+v),
admitted by the defendant in his statement: "But the ray moves
relatively
to the initial point of k, when measured in the stationary system, with
the velocity c-v, so that x'/(c-v) = t."
"Objection!" cries the defense counsel, "it is universally known that
the velocity of light is c in all inertial frames of reference! It is a
postulate and the basis of my client's theory."
"How say you to that?, asks the judge of the prosecutor.
I can only ask the court's indulgence and request the defense counsel
produce the relevant passage in the evidence before the court, your
honour. The document referred to is "On the Electrodynamics of Moving
Bodies", the author being the defendant, and that authorship has been
stipulated to.
"The court will recess for lunch", say the judge, "I shall conduct a
computerized search for the term "inertial" in the relevant document.
============Lunch break=============
The clerk cries "Be upstanding in court!" and the judge seats himself.
"I find no reference to defense counsel's claim, the objection is
overruled".
Thank you, your honour. As I was saying:
I call it the cuckoo transformation, there is no relative motion between
k' and kappa, the time in k' has been found to be x'/(c-v) and x'/(c+v),
admitted by the defendant in his statement: "But the ray moves
relatively
to the initial point of k, when measured in the stationary system, with
the velocity c-v, so that x'/(c-v) = t.",
the only purpose to the function cuckoo_tau is to satisfy Einstein's
fraudulent whim,
"we establish by definition that the "time" required by light to travel
from A to B equals the "time" it requires to travel from B to A."
As Counsel for the Physicists, I rest my case.
As Counsel for the Mathematicians, we have yet to prove that cuckoo_tau
is not a linear function.
Here it is that proof:
½[tau(0,0,0,t)+tau(0,0,0,t+x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v))] = tau(x',0,0,t+x'/(c-v))
(given)
Doubling both sides:
tau(0,0,0,t)+tau(0,0,0,t+x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) = 2 * tau(x',0,0,t+x'/(c-v))
Taking out the t for 3:00pm on a Friday afternoon:
tau(0,0,0,0)+tau(0,0,0,x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) = 2 * tau(x',0,0,x'/(c-v))
Synchronize clocks at t = 0, tau(0,0,0,0) = 0, we remove tau(0,0,0,0)+
tau(0,0,0,x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) = 2 * tau(x',0,0,x'/(c-v))
There is no relative motion between k' and kappa,the coordinate x' is
independent of time. We do not have xi = x'-ut or x' = x'+ut or any
other function xi = fuckup(x') for Lorentz's sake, there is no u, v, w
or velocity between system k'and system kappa.
The time at point zero is the same time at x', same at xi;
no translation between statioanry and movng frames, this is the moving
frame only, the stationary frame K is simmering on the back burner.
Hence:
tau(x',0,0,x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) = 2 * tau(x',0,0,x'/(c-v)) =
tau(0,0,0,x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) = 2 * tau(0,0,0,x'/(c-v)) =
tau(a,b,c,x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) = 2 * tau(a,b,c,x'/(c-v)),
the coordinate x' has no effect upon the time and is independent of
time,
the time is independent of the coordinate. Were it not so, the time at
the front of the moving train, an example the defendant uses in another
document, would differ from the back of th...."
"Objection!", interjects defense counsel, "that document is not in
evidence before the court".
"I can produce it if necessary", says the prosecutor, but I'll withdraw
the statement".
"Objection sustained, the reference to a train will be stricken from the
record", orders the judge. "Continue with the mathemetics, trains are
physical and you rested on that."
My apology to the court. Let me reiterate, time is independent of the
coordinate. I have NOT stated that time was independent of velocity,
that is for the jury to decide.
Removing the superfluous coordinates:
tau(x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) = 2 * tau(x'/(c-v))
Setting the time a = x'/(c-v) and b =x'/(c+v) for clarity:
tau(a+b) = 2*tau(a)
Renaming tau as f,
f(a+b) = 2f(a) or
½f(a+b) = f(a)
Chosing a > b, we have an example
½f(1+0) = f(1)
"In the first place it is clear that the equations must be linear
on account of the properties of homogeneity which we attribute to
space and time." -- Albert Phuckwit/Huckster Einstein.
In the second place tau is not a linear function. -- Androcles.
In the third place there are no coordinates to transform.
In the fourth place you've been had!
I ask the jury to convict Einstein on the charge of fraud.
Prosecution reserves the right to cross-examine the witnesses.
I now rest my case as a mathematician also.
Prosecution counsel whispers to his learned colleague, "I'd enter him an
insanity plea if I were you, he's going down".
Counsel for the defence has the floor.
Androcles.
.
User: "Dirk Van de moortel"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 20 Aug 2005 08:32:37 AM
"Androcles" <Androcles@ MyPlace.org> wrote in message news:2SFNe.6127$5m3.5040@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...


[snip the usual]
I was waiting for this :-)
Repeat to Thomas (with a little typo corrected):
Mind you, many people make this mistake. The unbeaten
champion of this mistake is someone called Androcles.
Dirk Vdm
.

User: "Mike"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 20 Aug 2005 04:34:37 PM
Androcles wrote:

"Thomas" <thomas.smid@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124535773.243065.299400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
[snip]


Don't try to explain it to moortel, his IQ is less than 10,
he can't understand what you say, he's a troll and he says things
like

I do not understand Androcles why you try to be so generous by using
the inequality:
Dirt IQ < 10
This can mean of course, that he has an IQ of 9.9999999999999999999
This is to high for what he has demonstrated here. I will be more
precise and say that his IQ is exactly 0.
Mike


Discuss relativity?
With a load of crap like you?

http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/LoadCrap.html
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
You are about as funny as Wilson Rabbidge!

Dirk Vdm


Lock him away in a padded cell and he can scribble away all he likes.


On the court docket, Science v Einstein.

Judge:

"The defendant stands before this court accused of fraud. How does the
defendant plead?"

Defense counsel:
"Not guilty, your honour."

Prosecution opens:
Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, good morning.

Please reference: http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/

The first transformation we are given is the Galilean,

x' =3D x-vt
y =3D y
z =3D z
t =3D t

You have to agree with that, Einstein states:

"If we place x'=3Dx-vt, it is clear that a point at rest in the system k
must have a system of values x', y, z, independent of time."

We have completed the transform from the stationary system, K, to the
moving system which I'm going to name k' because Einstein doesn't give
it a name.

"Objection! cries defence counsel.

"Yes?" asks the judge.

"Prosecuting counsel is making up names!" exclaims defence counsel,
"my client has already named the system k."

"Why have you changed the name from k to k'?", the judge asks
prosecuting counsel.

Your honour, the name kappa (k) refers to the system of values xi, eta,
zeta,tau which are dependent upon velocity according to the accused
and should not be confused with the system of values x',y,z,t. I merely
chose a suitable name. If the court directs me to use another, I shall
abide by the court's wishes.

"Overruled, it is clear that Einstein gave no name to the system of
values x', y, z and I see no reason why prosecuting counsel should not
do so, do not waste the court's time on trivialities or I shall hold you
in contempt", says the judge.

Prosecution continues.

Applying the galilean function g(),

For all x in K, x' in k', (x',y,z,t) =3D g(x,y,z,t).

It is clear, so ist klar, in agreement with experience, it being
immediately apparent and because Einstein says so,
a point at rest in system k' is independent of time.

We have now completed the transformation from K to k' with the function
g, and can place system K on the back burner.

Now we come to the defendant's transformation.
Not Lorentz's, not Galileo's, but Einstein's.

For all x in k', xi in kappa, (xi, eta, zeta, tau) =3D cuckoo(x',y,z,t)

We have a second transformation from the moving system k' to the
moving system kappa.

Einstein would have you believe that

tau =3D cuckoo_tau(g(x,y,z,t))
xi =3D cuckoo_xi(g(x,y,z,t))

is called the "Lorentz transformation".

I call it the cuckoo transformation, there is no relative motion between
k' and kappa, the time in k' has been found to be x'/(c-v) and x'/(c+v),
admitted by the defendant in his statement: "But the ray moves
relatively
to the initial point of k, when measured in the stationary system, with
the velocity c-v, so that x'/(c-v) =3D t."

"Objection!" cries the defense counsel, "it is universally known that
the velocity of light is c in all inertial frames of reference! It is a
postulate and the basis of my client's theory."

"How say you to that?, asks the judge of the prosecutor.

I can only ask the court's indulgence and request the defense counsel
produce the relevant passage in the evidence before the court, your
honour. The document referred to is "On the Electrodynamics of Moving
Bodies", the author being the defendant, and that authorship has been
stipulated to.

"The court will recess for lunch", say the judge, "I shall conduct a
computerized search for the term "inertial" in the relevant document.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DLunch break=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



The clerk cries "Be upstanding in court!" and the judge seats himself.

"I find no reference to defense counsel's claim, the objection is
overruled".

Thank you, your honour. As I was saying:

I call it the cuckoo transformation, there is no relative motion between
k' and kappa, the time in k' has been found to be x'/(c-v) and x'/(c+v),
admitted by the defendant in his statement: "But the ray moves
relatively
to the initial point of k, when measured in the stationary system, with
the velocity c-v, so that x'/(c-v) =3D t.",

the only purpose to the function cuckoo_tau is to satisfy Einstein's
fraudulent whim,

"we establish by definition that the "time" required by light to travel
from A to B equals the "time" it requires to travel from B to A."

As Counsel for the Physicists, I rest my case.

As Counsel for the Mathematicians, we have yet to prove that cuckoo_tau
is not a linear function.

Here it is that proof:

=BD[tau(0,0,0,t)+tau(0,0,0,t+x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v))] =3D tau(x',0,0,t+x'/(c-v=

))

(given)

Doubling both sides:
tau(0,0,0,t)+tau(0,0,0,t+x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) =3D 2 * tau(x',0,0,t+x'/(c-v))

Taking out the t for 3:00pm on a Friday afternoon:

tau(0,0,0,0)+tau(0,0,0,x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) =3D 2 * tau(x',0,0,x'/(c-v))

Synchronize clocks at t =3D 0, tau(0,0,0,0) =3D 0, we remove tau(0,0,0,0)+

tau(0,0,0,x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) =3D 2 * tau(x',0,0,x'/(c-v))

There is no relative motion between k' and kappa,the coordinate x' is
independent of time. We do not have xi =3D x'-ut or x' =3D x'+ut or any
other function xi =3D fuckup(x') for Lorentz's sake, there is no u, v, w
or velocity between system k'and system kappa.
The time at point zero is the same time at x', same at xi;
no translation between statioanry and movng frames, this is the moving
frame only, the stationary frame K is simmering on the back burner.

Hence:

tau(x',0,0,x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) =3D 2 * tau(x',0,0,x'/(c-v)) =3D
tau(0,0,0,x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) =3D 2 * tau(0,0,0,x'/(c-v)) =3D
tau(a,b,c,x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) =3D 2 * tau(a,b,c,x'/(c-v)),
the coordinate x' has no effect upon the time and is independent of
time,
the time is independent of the coordinate. Were it not so, the time at
the front of the moving train, an example the defendant uses in another
document, would differ from the back of th...."

"Objection!", interjects defense counsel, "that document is not in
evidence before the court".

"I can produce it if necessary", says the prosecutor, but I'll withdraw
the statement".

"Objection sustained, the reference to a train will be stricken from the
record", orders the judge. "Continue with the mathemetics, trains are
physical and you rested on that."

My apology to the court. Let me reiterate, time is independent of the
coordinate. I have NOT stated that time was independent of velocity,
that is for the jury to decide.

Removing the superfluous coordinates:

tau(x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) =3D 2 * tau(x'/(c-v))

Setting the time a =3D x'/(c-v) and b =3Dx'/(c+v) for clarity:

tau(a+b) =3D 2*tau(a)

Renaming tau as f,

f(a+b) =3D 2f(a) or

=BDf(a+b) =3D f(a)

Chosing a > b, we have an example

=BDf(1+0) =3D f(1)

"In the first place it is clear that the equations must be linear
on account of the properties of homogeneity which we attribute to
space and time." -- Albert Phuckwit/Huckster Einstein.

In the second place tau is not a linear function. -- Androcles.

In the third place there are no coordinates to transform.

In the fourth place you've been had!

I ask the jury to convict Einstein on the charge of fraud.

Prosecution reserves the right to cross-examine the witnesses.

I now rest my case as a mathematician also.

Prosecution counsel whispers to his learned colleague, "I'd enter him an
insanity plea if I were you, he's going down".
=20
Counsel for the defence has the floor.
=20
=20
Androcles.

.
User: "Arthur Dent"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 21 Aug 2005 08:54:22 AM
Mike wrote:

Androcles wrote:

"Thomas" <thomas.smid@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124535773.243065.299400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
[snip]


Don't try to explain it to moortel, his IQ is less than 10,
he can't understand what you say, he's a troll and he says things
like




I do not understand Androcles why you try to be so generous by using
the inequality:

Dirt IQ < 10

This can mean of course, that he has an IQ of 9.9999999999999999999

This is to high for what he has demonstrated here. I will be more
precise and say that his IQ is exactly 0.

Mike

If Dirk van der moortel trimmed his toenails he would say he had
9=2E8753745454 toes left.
That's how Androcles calculated Dirk's IQ.
Arthur Dent.




Discuss relativity?
With a load of crap like you?

http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/LoadCrap.html
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
You are about as funny as Wilson Rabbidge!

Dirk Vdm


Lock him away in a padded cell and he can scribble away all he likes.


On the court docket, Science v Einstein.

Judge:

"The defendant stands before this court accused of fraud. How does the
defendant plead?"

Defense counsel:
"Not guilty, your honour."

Prosecution opens:
Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, good morning.

Please reference: http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/

The first transformation we are given is the Galilean,

x' =3D x-vt
y =3D y
z =3D z
t =3D t

You have to agree with that, Einstein states:

"If we place x'=3Dx-vt, it is clear that a point at rest in the system k
must have a system of values x', y, z, independent of time."

We have completed the transform from the stationary system, K, to the
moving system which I'm going to name k' because Einstein doesn't give
it a name.

"Objection! cries defence counsel.

"Yes?" asks the judge.

"Prosecuting counsel is making up names!" exclaims defence counsel,
"my client has already named the system k."

"Why have you changed the name from k to k'?", the judge asks
prosecuting counsel.

Your honour, the name kappa (k) refers to the system of values xi, eta,
zeta,tau which are dependent upon velocity according to the accused
and should not be confused with the system of values x',y,z,t. I merely
chose a suitable name. If the court directs me to use another, I shall
abide by the court's wishes.

"Overruled, it is clear that Einstein gave no name to the system of
values x', y, z and I see no reason why prosecuting counsel should not
do so, do not waste the court's time on trivialities or I shall hold you
in contempt", says the judge.

Prosecution continues.

Applying the galilean function g(),

For all x in K, x' in k', (x',y,z,t) =3D g(x,y,z,t).

It is clear, so ist klar, in agreement with experience, it being
immediately apparent and because Einstein says so,
a point at rest in system k' is independent of time.

We have now completed the transformation from K to k' with the function
g, and can place system K on the back burner.

Now we come to the defendant's transformation.
Not Lorentz's, not Galileo's, but Einstein's.

For all x in k', xi in kappa, (xi, eta, zeta, tau) =3D cuckoo(x',y,z,t)

We have a second transformation from the moving system k' to the
moving system kappa.

Einstein would have you believe that

tau =3D cuckoo_tau(g(x,y,z,t))
xi =3D cuckoo_xi(g(x,y,z,t))

is called the "Lorentz transformation".

I call it the cuckoo transformation, there is no relative motion between
k' and kappa, the time in k' has been found to be x'/(c-v) and x'/(c+v),
admitted by the defendant in his statement: "But the ray moves
relatively
to the initial point of k, when measured in the stationary system, with
the velocity c-v, so that x'/(c-v) =3D t."

"Objection!" cries the defense counsel, "it is universally known that
the velocity of light is c in all inertial frames of reference! It is a
postulate and the basis of my client's theory."

"How say you to that?, asks the judge of the prosecutor.

I can only ask the court's indulgence and request the defense counsel
produce the relevant passage in the evidence before the court, your
honour. The document referred to is "On the Electrodynamics of Moving
Bodies", the author being the defendant, and that authorship has been
stipulated to.

"The court will recess for lunch", say the judge, "I shall conduct a
computerized search for the term "inertial" in the relevant document.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DLunch break=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



The clerk cries "Be upstanding in court!" and the judge seats himself.

"I find no reference to defense counsel's claim, the objection is
overruled".

Thank you, your honour. As I was saying:

I call it the cuckoo transformation, there is no relative motion between
k' and kappa, the time in k' has been found to be x'/(c-v) and x'/(c+v),
admitted by the defendant in his statement: "But the ray moves
relatively
to the initial point of k, when measured in the stationary system, with
the velocity c-v, so that x'/(c-v) =3D t.",

the only purpose to the function cuckoo_tau is to satisfy Einstein's
fraudulent whim,

"we establish by definition that the "time" required by light to travel
from A to B equals the "time" it requires to travel from B to A."

As Counsel for the Physicists, I rest my case.

As Counsel for the Mathematicians, we have yet to prove that cuckoo_tau
is not a linear function.

Here it is that proof:

=BD[tau(0,0,0,t)+tau(0,0,0,t+x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v))] =3D tau(x',0,0,t+x'/(c=

-v))

(given)

Doubling both sides:
tau(0,0,0,t)+tau(0,0,0,t+x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) =3D 2 * tau(x',0,0,t+x'/(c-=

v))


Taking out the t for 3:00pm on a Friday afternoon:

tau(0,0,0,0)+tau(0,0,0,x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) =3D 2 * tau(x',0,0,x'/(c-v))

Synchronize clocks at t =3D 0, tau(0,0,0,0) =3D 0, we remove tau(0,0,0,=

0)+


tau(0,0,0,x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) =3D 2 * tau(x',0,0,x'/(c-v))

There is no relative motion between k' and kappa,the coordinate x' is
independent of time. We do not have xi =3D x'-ut or x' =3D x'+ut or any
other function xi =3D fuckup(x') for Lorentz's sake, there is no u, v, w
or velocity between system k'and system kappa.
The time at point zero is the same time at x', same at xi;
no translation between statioanry and movng frames, this is the moving
frame only, the stationary frame K is simmering on the back burner.

Hence:

tau(x',0,0,x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) =3D 2 * tau(x',0,0,x'/(c-v)) =3D
tau(0,0,0,x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) =3D 2 * tau(0,0,0,x'/(c-v)) =3D
tau(a,b,c,x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) =3D 2 * tau(a,b,c,x'/(c-v)),
the coordinate x' has no effect upon the time and is independent of
time,
the time is independent of the coordinate. Were it not so, the time at
the front of the moving train, an example the defendant uses in another
document, would differ from the back of th...."

"Objection!", interjects defense counsel, "that document is not in
evidence before the court".

"I can produce it if necessary", says the prosecutor, but I'll withdraw
the statement".

"Objection sustained, the reference to a train will be stricken from the
record", orders the judge. "Continue with the mathemetics, trains are
physical and you rested on that."

My apology to the court. Let me reiterate, time is independent of the
coordinate. I have NOT stated that time was independent of velocity,
that is for the jury to decide.

Removing the superfluous coordinates:

tau(x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v)) =3D 2 * tau(x'/(c-v))

Setting the time a =3D x'/(c-v) and b =3Dx'/(c+v) for clarity:

tau(a+b) =3D 2*tau(a)

Renaming tau as f,

f(a+b) =3D 2f(a) or

=BDf(a+b) =3D f(a)

Chosing a > b, we have an example

=BDf(1+0) =3D f(1)

"In the first place it is clear that the equations must be linear
on account of the properties of homogeneity which we attribute to
space and time." -- Albert Phuckwit/Huckster Einstein.

In the second place tau is not a linear function. -- Androcles.

In the third place there are no coordinates to transform.

In the fourth place you've been had!

I ask the jury to convict Einstein on the charge of fraud.

Prosecution reserves the right to cross-examine the witnesses.

I now rest my case as a mathematician also.

Prosecution counsel whispers to his learned colleague, "I'd enter him an
insanity plea if I were you, he's going down".
=20
Counsel for the defence has the floor.
=20
=20
Androcles.

.



User: "Dirk Van de moortel"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 20 Aug 2005 06:48:55 AM
"Thomas" <thomas.smid@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1124535773.243065.299400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

Dirk Van de moortel wrote:

"Thomas Smid" <thomas.smid@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1124482515.653311.292120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...


The error is as much with Einstein's interpretation of the Lorentz
transformation as with the latter itself. The whole confusion about
length contractions and time dilations stems from the circumstance that
the principle of a vectorial velocity addition (i.e. the Galilei
transformation) is assumed to be valid for light signals (contrary to
what experimental evidence suggests) and then this error is being
compensated by makink another and re-scaling the original length and
time units (see my webpage
http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/relativity.htm and links from there (in
particular http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/lightspeed.htm and
http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/timedilation.htm )).




Clearly vectorial velocity addition is not tied to the
Galilean transformation.

When one observer measures the velocities of two objects,
he uses vectorial addition or subtraction to find the so-called
closing velocity between the objects. The result is a vector
that tells how the distance between the objects as measured
by the observer, changes with time as measured by the observer.
This is valid in Galilean and in special relativity, and that is what
is used in Einstein's paper.

When an observer measures the velocity of another observer,
who in turn measures the velocity of some object, then vectorial
addition is not applicable to find the velocity of the object as
measured by the first observer. Finding the correct way to find
this, is what the paper is (partly) about.

About closing velocity (and speed), see for instance
http://hermes.physics.adelaide.edu.au/~dkoks/Faq/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/FTL.html#2

Perhaps this helps to shed some light on the possible
misconceptions you might be fighting on your webpage.

Dirk Vdm


You may have misunderstood my argument:

Actually I haven't misunderstood your argument. Before I reached
an argument in your message, I have made a remark about your
phrase:
"... the principle of a vectorial velocity addition (i.e. the Galilei
transformation) is assumed to be valid for light signals ...
First, I have explained that vectorial velocity addition is not tied
to the Galilean transformation, which implies that your usage of
the parenthesised "(i.e. the Galilei transformation)" is totally
misplaced and even wrong.
Second, I have shorty explained the conceptual difference
between the circumstances where vectorial addition can be
used and where it cannot. This is essential when you want to
understand what the paper is about.

I was not referring to the
addition theorem for velocities of two objects (which is merely a
consequence of the Lorentz transformation) but the addition of the
speed of light to the velocity of the light source or observer which is
used to *derive* the Lorentz transformation in the first place.

There you have the two "objects" for which the closing velocity is
calculated. See below.

If you
have a look at Einstein's derivation (see for instance the translation
of his 1905 paper under
http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/ ) then you will
find there expressions like c+v and c-v, that is the frame dependence
of the speed of light is being treated like that of ordinary objects
(i.e. like a Galilei transformation).

The light acts as the first object.
The source acts as the second object.
Both objects have a velocity as measured by the observer.
The observer uses vector addition and subtraction to calculate
the closing speed between the light and the source.
This has nothing to do with the Galilei transformation at all.

Because this is obviously
contradictory to the experimental fact that c has to be independent of
the reference frame,

It is not contradictory with this experimental fact at all.
Quite on the contrary: it is completely consistent with it:
remember the fact that the light also has velocity c with
respect to the source.
These c+v and c-v are closing speeds between two "objects"
as seen by the observer, as I have explained above.
See also
http://groups.google.com/groups?&as_umsgid=TCVIb.109057$Jl3.4986923@phobos.telenet-ops.be
http://groups.google.com/groups?&as_umsgid=LWkIb.105664$6N2.4901984@phobos.telenet-ops.be
and
http://hermes.physics.adelaide.edu.au/~dkoks/Faq/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/FTL.html#2
If/when you understand and aknowledge all this and rephrase
your introduction, perhaps we can look at the remainder...
Mind you, many people make this mistake. The unbeated
champion of this mistake is someone called Androcles.
Dirk Vdm
.
User: "Thomas"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 20 Aug 2005 08:58:56 AM
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:

The light acts as the first object.
The source acts as the second object.
Both objects have a velocity as measured by the observer.
The observer uses vector addition and subtraction to calculate
the closing speed between the light and the source.

This is exactly the mistaken assumption Einstein was making as well
(despite the obvious fact that light behaves very differently to
ordinary objects in this respect).
Thomas
.
User: "Dirk Van de moortel"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 20 Aug 2005 09:15:41 AM
"Thomas" <thomas.smid@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1124546336.273518.121610@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Dirk Van de moortel wrote:

The light acts as the first object.
The source acts as the second object.
Both objects have a velocity as measured by the observer.
The observer uses vector addition and subtraction to calculate
the closing speed between the light and the source.


This is exactly the mistaken assumption Einstein was making as well
(despite the obvious fact that light behaves very differently to
ordinary objects in this respect).

Where is the mistake in the following statements about the
situation where we talk about the light signal sent by the
source in the direction away from the observer?
The light signal has velocity c w.r.t. the observer.
The source has velocity v w.r.t. the observer.
After 0 seconds,
the distance of the light signal to the observer is 0 meters
and the distance of the source to the observer is 0 meters,
so the distance between signal and source is
0 meters - 0 meters = 0 meters.
After 1 second,
the distance of the light signal to the observer is c meters,
and the distance of the source to the observer is v meters,
so the distance between signal and source is
c meters - v meters = (c-v) meters.
After 2 seconds,
the distance of the light signal to the observer is 2 c meters,
and the distance of the source to the observer is 2 v meters,
so the distance between signal and source is
2 c meters - 2 v meters = 2 (c-v) meters.
...
After t seconds,
the distance of the light signal to the observer is t c meters,
and the distance of the source to the observer is t v meters,
so the distance between signal and source is
t c meters - t v meters = t (c-v) meters.
So, after t seconds (on the observer's clock), the distance as
(measured by the observer) between the signal and source is
t (c-v) meters.
So the time rate of change of the distance between them is c-v.
This rate of change is *defined* as the "closing velocity" between
the signal and the source.
It pops up in the expressions x'/(c-v) and x'/(c+v) in the paper.
Where is, according to you, the error?
Exercise: which physical assumpion have we made that is
essential for the paper?
Dirk Vdm
.
User: "Thomas"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 20 Aug 2005 11:01:15 AM
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:

"Thomas" <thomas.smid@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1124546336.273518.121610@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Dirk Van de moortel wrote:

The light acts as the first object.
The source acts as the second object.
Both objects have a velocity as measured by the observer.
The observer uses vector addition and subtraction to calculate
the closing speed between the light and the source.


This is exactly the mistaken assumption Einstein was making as well
(despite the obvious fact that light behaves very differently to
ordinary objects in this respect).


Where is the mistake in the following statements about the
situation where we talk about the light signal sent by the
source in the direction away from the observer?

The light signal has velocity c w.r.t. the observer.
The source has velocity v w.r.t. the observer.
After 0 seconds,
the distance of the light signal to the observer is 0 meters
and the distance of the source to the observer is 0 meters,
so the distance between signal and source is
0 meters - 0 meters = 0 meters.
After 1 second,
the distance of the light signal to the observer is c meters,
and the distance of the source to the observer is v meters,
so the distance between signal and source is
c meters - v meters = (c-v) meters.
After 2 seconds,
the distance of the light signal to the observer is 2 c meters,
and the distance of the source to the observer is 2 v meters,
so the distance between signal and source is
2 c meters - 2 v meters = 2 (c-v) meters.
...
After t seconds,
the distance of the light signal to the observer is t c meters,
and the distance of the source to the observer is t v meters,
so the distance between signal and source is
t c meters - t v meters = t (c-v) meters.

So, after t seconds (on the observer's clock), the distance as
(measured by the observer) between the signal and source is
t (c-v) meters.
So the time rate of change of the distance between them is c-v.
This rate of change is *defined* as the "closing velocity" between
the signal and the source.
It pops up in the expressions x'/(c-v) and x'/(c+v) in the paper.

Where is, according to you, the error?

The error is the assumption
"So the time rate of change of the distance between them is c-v.This
rate of change is *defined* as the "closing velocity" between the
signal and the source"
which is exactly the definition which would hold for ordinary objects
(i.e. the Galilei transformation).
Let's reformulate the problem (your example is somewhat confusing
anyway as with your definitions the distance of the light signal
increases both to the source and observer):
Assume that a light signal is emitted at t=0 from the source to the
observer who is at a distance x from the source. First assume both are
resting relatively to each other. The time needed to reach the observer
is then obviously T=x/c (with c the speed of light). Now assume that
source and observer are moving relatively to each other with velocity
v. For convenience choose the coordinate system to be the rest frame of
the observer i.e. only the source is moving (this is no restriction as
the velocity v is only relative). Now the speed of light must be
independent of the state of motion of the source, that is if the latter
is at the same point as before when emitting the light signal (i.e. at
a distance x from the observer), the signal must reach the observer
again after a time T=x/c irrespective of the velocity v of the source.
This is obviously different from what a vectorial velocity addition
would yield (if the source would emit a particle with velocity w, it
would reach the observer after a time T=x/(w-v) if the source is
receding from the observer and T=x/(w+v) if approaching the observer).
Thomas
.
User: "Dirk Van de moortel"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 20 Aug 2005 11:08:55 AM
"Thomas" <thomas.smid@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1124550898.326548.225340@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Dirk Van de moortel wrote:

"Thomas" <thomas.smid@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1124546336.273518.121610@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Dirk Van de moortel wrote:

The light acts as the first object.
The source acts as the second object.
Both objects have a velocity as measured by the observer.
The observer uses vector addition and subtraction to calculate
the closing speed between the light and the source.


This is exactly the mistaken assumption Einstein was making as well
(despite the obvious fact that light behaves very differently to
ordinary objects in this respect).


Where is the mistake in the following statements about the
situation where we talk about the light signal sent by the
source in the direction away from the observer?

The light signal has velocity c w.r.t. the observer.
The source has velocity v w.r.t. the observer.
After 0 seconds,
the distance of the light signal to the observer is 0 meters
and the distance of the source to the observer is 0 meters,
so the distance between signal and source is
0 meters - 0 meters = 0 meters.
After 1 second,
the distance of the light signal to the observer is c meters,
and the distance of the source to the observer is v meters,
so the distance between signal and source is
c meters - v meters = (c-v) meters.
After 2 seconds,
the distance of the light signal to the observer is 2 c meters,
and the distance of the source to the observer is 2 v meters,
so the distance between signal and source is
2 c meters - 2 v meters = 2 (c-v) meters.
...
After t seconds,
the distance of the light signal to the observer is t c meters,
and the distance of the source to the observer is t v meters,
so the distance between signal and source is
t c meters - t v meters = t (c-v) meters.

So, after t seconds (on the observer's clock), the distance as
(measured by the observer) between the signal and source is
t (c-v) meters.
So the time rate of change of the distance between them is c-v.
This rate of change is *defined* as the "closing velocity" between
the signal and the source.
It pops up in the expressions x'/(c-v) and x'/(c+v) in the paper.

Where is, according to you, the error?


The error is the assumption
"So the time rate of change of the distance between them is c-v.This
rate of change is *defined* as the "closing velocity" between the
signal and the source"
which is exactly the definition which would hold for ordinary objects
(i.e. the Galilei transformation).

First, if a quantity grows from 0 to A in a time t, then the
average rate of change of the quantity is *defined* as A/t.
If, after t seconds (on the observer's clock), the distance as
(measured by the observer) between the signal and source
has increased from 0 to t (c-v) meters, then the rate of
change of that distance is c-v, whether you like that or not.
This is not open for debate: it is a definition.
Second, you are *very* confused: there is no transformation
anywhere *near* in what I have written above.
Dirk Vdm
.
User: "Thomas Smid"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 21 Aug 2005 03:15:28 AM
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:

First, if a quantity grows from 0 to A in a time t, then the
average rate of change of the quantity is *defined* as A/t.
If, after t seconds (on the observer's clock), the distance as
(measured by the observer) between the signal and source
has increased from 0 to t (c-v) meters, then the rate of
change of that distance is c-v, whether you like that or not.
This is not open for debate: it is a definition.

It is the usual definition that holds for the addition of velocities of
ordinary objects. It can not be applied to light signals however (as is
well known from experiments).
Thomas
.
User: "Dirk Van de moortel"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 21 Aug 2005 04:05:32 AM
"Thomas Smid" <thomas.smid@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1124612128.250170.104660@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Dirk Van de moortel wrote:

First, if a quantity grows from 0 to A in a time t, then the
average rate of change of the quantity is *defined* as A/t.
If, after t seconds (on the observer's clock), the distance as
(measured by the observer) between the signal and source
has increased from 0 to t (c-v) meters, then the rate of
change of that distance is c-v, whether you like that or not.
This is not open for debate: it is a definition.


It is the usual definition that holds for the addition of velocities of
ordinary objects. It can not be applied to light signals however (as is
well known from experiments).

Of course it can be applied. It is *defined* and it has nothing
whatsoever to do with relativity.
It even works for two light signals going in opposite directions,
both in relativistic and non-relativistic physics:
After 0 seconds,
the distance of signal_1 to the observer is 0 meters
and the distance of signal_2 to the observer is 0 meters,
so the distance between the signals is
0 meters - 0 meters = 0 meters.
...
After t seconds,
the distance of signal_1 to the observer is c t meters
and the distance of signal_2 to the observer is c t meters,
so the distance between the signals is
c t meters + c t meters = 2 c t meters.
Distance 0 in 0 seconds.
Distance 2 c t in t seconds.
Closing speed 2 c by definition, whether you like it or not.
Every experiment will show that after t seconds, the distance
between the light fronts is 2 c t, so the closing speed between
the signals is 2 c. Period.
See also
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/FTL.html#2
None of this has anything to do with relativity to begin with.
If you want to be taken seriously by adults, you really should
learn some *very* basic things before you have a say about
more advanced stuff.
Perhaps in a few years you'll learn this in high school.
Actually, you should have learned this already. It is just a
trivial application of the rule we used to call "the rule of 3".
Don't you recognise it?
Dirk Vdm
.
User: "Thomas Smid"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 21 Aug 2005 12:33:06 PM
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:

"Thomas Smid" <thomas.smid@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1124612128.250170.104660@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

It is the usual definition that holds for the addition of velocities of
ordinary objects. It can not be applied to light signals however (as is
well known from experiments).


Of course it can be applied. It is *defined* and it has nothing
whatsoever to do with relativity.

At the risk of repeating myself: you can not just define something as
it pleases you regardless of the physical circumstances.
As an analogon, assume for instance you define 'time' solely and
strictly through the rotational period of the earth. Now assume further
that for some reason the earth's rotation slows down. If you
stubbornly insist that time has to be defined in this way, this forces
you then to develop some nonsense theory why suddenly the life
expectancy of people is getting shorter and shorter.
In a similar way has the assumption that the propagation of light can
be treated by the usual vector operations led to the nonsense of the
Lorentz transformation and everything that follows from it.
As I have indicated before in this thread and on my webpage
http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/lightspeed.htm , the 'speed' of light
has to be defined fundamentally different from the usual definition if
it is to be independent of any velocity involved, namely merely through
the distance between source and observer at the time of emission of the
signal.
Thomas
.
User: "Dirk Van de moortel"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 21 Aug 2005 01:57:33 PM
"Thomas Smid" <thomas.smid@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1124645586.953927.123700@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Dirk Van de moortel wrote:

"Thomas Smid" <thomas.smid@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1124612128.250170.104660@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...


It is the usual definition that holds for the addition of velocities of
ordinary objects. It can not be applied to light signals however (as is
well known from experiments).


Of course it can be applied. It is *defined* and it has nothing
whatsoever to do with relativity.


At the risk of repeating myself: you can not just define something as
it pleases you regardless of the physical circumstances.

Of course I can do that.
Ask around.
After 0 seconds,
the distance of signal_1 to the observer is 0 meters
and the distance of signal_2 to the observer is 0 meters,
so the distance between the signals is
0 meters - 0 meters = 0 meters.
...
After t seconds,
the distance of signal_1 to the observer is c t meters
and the distance of signal_2 to the observer is c t meters,
so the distance between the signals is
c t meters + c t meters = 2 c t meters.
Distance 0 in 0 seconds.
Distance 2 c t in t seconds.
Closing speed 2 c ...
BY DEFINITION OF CLOSING SPEED.
I can imagine that you don't like that, probably because it implies
that you have wasted a lot of time setting up your website. But
the fact that you don't like it, is of not much importance for how
the rest of the world has decided to go about these things. This
is just how things work. I hope that you can understand that.


As an analogon, assume for instance you define 'time' solely and
strictly through the rotational period of the earth.

There is no need to draw the attention away from your
elementary mistakes by letting me assume something silly.
Time is defined as what we read on clocks.
Now just try to concentrate on what I (and others) have
been explaining to you. This is not a debate or an argument
or something. We are merely trying to *help* you understand
something that looks simple, but that seems to be causing
some problems to untrained people. So take the opportunity
to learn something. After all, isn't that why you are here?
Dirk Vdm
.
User: "Thomas Smid"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 21 Aug 2005 03:12:33 PM
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:

I can imagine that you don't like that, probably because it implies
that you have wasted a lot of time setting up your website. But
the fact that you don't like it, is of not much importance for how
the rest of the world has decided to go about these things. This
is just how things work. I hope that you can understand that.

I think it is more of a case that Relativists don't like what I am
saying. Understandably so, as Relativity feeds many of them and nobody
likes his livelihood to be challenged.
Besides, science is not done by majority vote but by constantly
challenging and revising present theories (otherwise we would for
instance still be dabbling about with the Ptolemaic theory of the
universe).

As an analogon, assume for instance you define 'time' solely and
strictly through the rotational period of the earth.


There is no need to draw the attention away from your
elementary mistakes by letting me assume something silly.
Time is defined as what we read on clocks.

If there is no need then you should realize that the elementary mistake
is with your assumptions (or rather the assumptions of SR that you are
quoting).

Now just try to concentrate on what I (and others) have
been explaining to you. This is not a debate or an argument
or something. We are merely trying to *help* you understand
something that looks simple, but that seems to be causing
some problems to untrained people. So take the opportunity
to learn something. After all, isn't that why you are here?

It seems it is you who is having the problems here. Otherwise you would
not come up with this 'we are just here to help you' nonsense, but try
to achieve a common consensus with regard to the scientic issues. The
only problem I am having is that people like you are apparently
unwilling or unable to question your own scientific position.
Thomas
.
User: "bz"

Title: Re: Einstein's lopsided caricature of space and time 22 Aug 2005 08:00:03 AM
"Thomas Smid" <thomas.smid@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1124655153.419461.280210@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

I think it is more of a case that Relativists don't like what I am
saying. Understandably so, as Relativity feeds many of them and nobody
likes his livelihood to be challenged.
Besides, science is not done by majority vote but by constantly
challenging and revising present theories (otherwise we would for
instance still be dabbling about with the Ptolemaic theory of the
universe).

You are, of course correct about how science advances.
Show us your experimental data that invalidates relativity [any part of
it].
Such data must be replicatable by others, so be sure to describe your
experment, apparatus, as well as giving us complete access to your raw data
and the methods you used to analyze it.
--
bz
please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.
bz+sp@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
.

User: "Dirk Van de moortel"