| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Jack" |
| Date: |
25 Mar 2005 01:47:40 AM |
| Object: |
Electron & ground state energy |
When not excited, electrons are said to be at ground state.
This ground state energy is said to come from interactions
between the vacuum's virtual particle sea and the electron.
Supposed, a device got developed in the future that
can shift the degree of coherence in the virtual particle
sea of the vacuum, What would happen to the atoms or
chemical reactions since the ground state of the atoms
got altered ?
Jack
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: Electron & ground state energy |
25 Mar 2005 02:30:19 PM |
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Jack wrote:
When not excited, electrons are said to be at ground state.
This ground state energy is said to come from interactions
between the vacuum's virtual particle sea and the electron.
Supposed, a device got developed in the future that
can shift the degree of coherence in the virtual particle
sea of the vacuum, What would happen to the atoms or
chemical reactions since the ground state of the atoms
got altered ?
(They'd take on a social advocate and sue for compensatory and treble
punitive remuneration.) A Casimir etalon ready does that, or it
doesn't. Your choice.
Scharhorst effect
http://arXiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0107091
http://arXiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0010055
Phys. Lett. B236 354 (1990)
Phys. Lett. B250 133 (1990)
J Phys A26 2037 (1993)
Andrew Gould (Princeton, Inst. Advanced Study). IASSNS-AST-90-25
http://arXiv.org/abs/hep-th/0104127
For a hollow spherical shell of radius R, Casimir
Phys. Rev. E 63 1101-1112 (2001)
Refutation of repulsive Casimir
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0503158
Refutation of zero-point background
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
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| User: "tadchem" |
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| Title: Re: Electron & ground state energy |
25 Mar 2005 09:05:02 AM |
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Jack wrote:
When not excited, electrons are said to be at ground state.
Correct.
This ground state energy is said to come from interactions
between the vacuum's virtual particle sea and the electron.
Not correct. The ground state is defined by the properties of the
electron and the electrostatic potential which binds it, with respect
for the principles of quantum mechanics with regard to angular momentum
and radiative transitions. The electron and the potential are very
real - there is nothing 'virtual' about the situation.
Supposed, a device got developed in the future that
can shift the degree of coherence in the virtual particle
sea of the vacuum, What would happen to the atoms or
chemical reactions since the ground state of the atoms
got altered ?
Your earlier error renders these speculations superfluous. The phrase
"degree of coherence in the virtual particle sea of the vacuum" is in
itself incoherent as the concept of coherence has not been
operationally defined in a way that would permit its application to a
'virtual particle sea,' whatever *that* is.
Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: Electron & ground state energy |
25 Mar 2005 09:17:22 AM |
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tadchem wrote:
Jack wrote:
When not excited, electrons are said to be at ground state.
Correct.
This ground state energy is said to come from interactions
between the vacuum's virtual particle sea and the electron.
Not correct. The ground state is defined by the properties of the
electron and the electrostatic potential which binds it, with respect
for the principles of quantum mechanics with regard to angular
momentum
and radiative transitions. The electron and the potential are very
real - there is nothing 'virtual' about the situation.
But the electrostatic potential or electric field is caused by
virtual particles.. isn't it. And virtual particles are emitted
and absorbed by the quantum vacuum hence the vacuum
is related to the value of the ground energy state of the
lowest electron orbital. No?
Jack
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| User: "tadchem" |
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| Title: Re: Electron & ground state energy |
25 Mar 2005 09:52:04 AM |
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Jack wrote:
<snip repost>
But the electrostatic potential or electric field is caused by
virtual particles.. isn't it.
No, it isn't. It is caused by *real* particles with real
electrosatatic charges at a finite distance. Typically these are atomic
nuclei with their own positive charges that are partially neutralized
by the charges of some electrons localized around them in the more
intense region of the electrostatic field.
Even within periodic potentials such as crystalline lattices, the
attractive force electrons experience is due to positively charged ions
- negatively charged ions provide a repulsive electrostatic potential.
When there are no atoms nearby (free space) then there is no
electrostatic potential to hold the electron.
And virtual particles are emitted
and absorbed by the quantum vacuum hence the vacuum
is related to the value of the ground energy state of the
lowest electron orbital. No?
No. You may be thinking of what are called "zero-point quantum
fluctuations" in the vacuum. In the vacuum, there is no electrostatic
potential, no orbital, and no energy level to speak of.
I believe that zero-point quantum fluctuations occur on a femtometer
scale - far too small for an electron bound into an orbital
(nanometer).
Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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| User: "Y.Porat" |
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| Title: Re: Electron & ground state energy |
25 Mar 2005 10:06:43 AM |
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And how do you get a strong metal latice alloy
say from Zink and cuprum?? each of them is neutral electrically
how is it that you can get (iirc) an alloy of silver and cuprum
in any proprtions between the ingrediants?
-------------------------
Y.Porat
-----------------------------
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: Electron & ground state energy |
25 Mar 2005 10:45:11 AM |
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tadchem wrote:
Jack wrote:
<snip repost>
But the electrostatic potential or electric field is caused by
virtual particles.. isn't it.
No, it isn't. It is caused by *real* particles with real
electrosatatic charges at a finite distance. Typically these are
atomic
nuclei with their own positive charges that are partially neutralized
by the charges of some electrons localized around them in the more
intense region of the electrostatic field.
No. You are confusing my inquiry. I know the repulsion between
electrons and the attraction of it to the proton is caused by
real particles. I'm talking about the origin of the electric
field. The electric field of an electron is caused by virtual
particles. While the quality of the vacuum determines the
ground state or lowest energy level of the orbitals. This is
why even at the lowest energy level, there is still a value
because the vacuum is not zero or not exactly vacuum.
Do you get me now.
My original question is asking if one has a device (in the
future) that can change the value of the vacuum and this can
alter the value of the ground energy state (which is not
zero). What would be the effect on the chemical reactions, etc.
Got me now?
Jack
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| User: "tadchem" |
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| Title: Re: Electron & ground state energy |
25 Mar 2005 01:46:52 PM |
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Jack wrote:
<snip repost>
No. You are confusing my inquiry. I know the repulsion between
electrons and the attraction of it to the proton is caused by
real particles. I'm talking about the origin of the electric
field. The electric field of an electron is caused by virtual
particles. While the quality of the vacuum determines the
ground state or lowest energy level of the orbitals. This is
why even at the lowest energy level, there is still a value
because the vacuum is not zero or not exactly vacuum.
My apologies. When you used the phrase "ground state" in describing an
electron in your original post, I naturally assumed you meant the
"ground state" of the electron - a term from quantum mechanics and
chemistry used to describe the lowest possible energy state of a single
electron bound within an attractive potential.
Do you get me now.
Yes. What you meant apparently was something other than what you said.
I am afraid I am unable to help you, as I am an *empirical* scientist,
and I deal almost exclusively with measurable (as opposed to virtual)
phenomena.
My original question is asking if one has a device (in the
future) that can change the value of the vacuum and this can
alter the value of the ground energy state (which is not
zero). What would be the effect on the chemical reactions, etc.
Got me now?
Yes. You need the opinions of a physicist who works in the field of
speculative fiction.
"I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not
sure you realize that what I said is not what I meant." [to be uttered
as rapidly as possible] - Old joke
Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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| User: "Repeating Rifle" |
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| Title: Re: Electron & ground state energy |
25 Mar 2005 02:22:34 PM |
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in article 1111736860.759443.286080@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, Jack at
chemphysicsdude@yahoo.com wrote on 3/24/05 11:47 PM:
When not excited, electrons are said to be at ground state.
This ground state energy is said to come from interactions
between the vacuum's virtual particle sea and the electron.
Supposed, a device got developed in the future that
can shift the degree of coherence in the virtual particle
sea of the vacuum, What would happen to the atoms or
chemical reactions since the ground state of the atoms
got altered ?
Jack
Ignore all this virtual particle crap. The Pauli exclusion principle is at
work. Exclusion appears to be a fact of nature for fermions. If you want to
say that virtual electronic interaction causes the exclusion principle, that
is your progblem.
Bill
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