Science > Physics > excited states, equilibrium, chemical reactions...
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Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Jack" |
| Date: |
25 Mar 2005 05:55:21 PM |
| Object: |
excited states, equilibrium, chemical reactions... |
What's the relationship between the excited states thing of
the electrons quantum orbitals, etc. and chemical reactions?
I want to understand what happens to the energy
levels of the electron orbitals during chemical reactions
and when equilibrium is reached, etc. What part of chemistry
or physics deal with this topic. I can't find it in
chemistry books and neither in physics book. Anyone
can sum it up in a paragraph or two the relationship
between energy level excitation and chemical reactions
and equilibrium? Thanks.
Jack
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| User: "Guy Gordon" |
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| Title: Re: excited states, equilibrium, chemical reactions... |
25 Mar 2005 09:53:15 PM |
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"Jack" <chemphysicsdude@yahoo.com> wrote:
What's the relationship between the excited states thing of
the electrons quantum orbitals, etc. and chemical reactions?
Not much, except in the case of photochemistry.
Most reactions take place between atoms and molecules in their lowest states.
Heat helps, but that's mostly vibrational energy. It causes the molecules to
bump together harder, and the bonds to flex further.
I want to understand what happens to the energy
levels of the electron orbitals during chemical reactions
and when equilibrium is reached, etc. What part of chemistry
or physics deal with this topic.
Physical Chemistry. Quantum Chemistry. and Transition State theory.
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| User: "Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com" |
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| Title: Re: excited states, equilibrium, chemical reactions... |
25 Mar 2005 06:13:09 PM |
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Equilibrium is a bulk phenomenon. It has nothing to do with excited
state energies. These make a contribution to kinetics, ie, how fast
reactions happen at a given temperature.
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: excited states, equilibrium, chemical reactions... |
25 Mar 2005 07:22:53 PM |
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You mean to say no matter what kind of
chemical reactions. The electrons are all
in ground states and only electromagnetic
wave can trigger the electrons to become
excited??
What happens to the chemical reactions
if you bombard it with electromagnetic
wave turning the electrons into excited
states. Can't you affect any parameters
of the reactions??
Jack
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| User: "Guy Gordon" |
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| Title: Re: excited states, equilibrium, chemical reactions... |
25 Mar 2005 09:55:16 PM |
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"Jack" <chemphysicsdude@yahoo.com> wrote:
What happens to the chemical reactions
if you bombard it with electromagnetic
wave turning the electrons into excited
states. Can't you affect any parameters
of the reactions??
Yes, that's called photochemistry.
But most chemistry happens at much lower energy than that.
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: excited states, equilibrium, chemical reactions... |
25 Mar 2005 10:29:48 PM |
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Guy Gordon wrote:
"Jack" <chemphysicsdude@yahoo.com> wrote:
What happens to the chemical reactions
if you bombard it with electromagnetic
wave turning the electrons into excited
states. Can't you affect any parameters
of the reactions??
Yes, that's called photochemistry.
But most chemistry happens at much lower energy than that.
Does this hold in all cases?? Meaning if I give the
electrons extra energy turning it into excited states,
the chemical reactions of all substances are affected
with no exception???
Second, supposed future technology can alter the
vacuum and the ground energy state of the atoms got
higher energy than the ambient quantum vacuum
fluctuations existing now. What would happen to
the atoms. Since the quantum orbital levels are fixed.
It can't go further down to the nucleus since it is
already in ground state. Therefore the extra vacuum
ambient energy background should make the chemical
reactions much faster. Is this right? I hope you
understand what I mean. It's not normal so think
harder. Thanks.
Jack
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| User: "bz" |
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| Title: Re: excited states, equilibrium, chemical reactions... |
26 Mar 2005 03:15:22 AM |
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"Jack" <chemphysicsdude@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1111811388.234785.189510
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Second, supposed future technology can alter the
vacuum and the ground energy state of the atoms got
higher energy than the ambient quantum vacuum
fluctuations existing now. What would happen to
the atoms. Since the quantum orbital levels are fixed.
It can't go further down to the nucleus since it is
already in ground state. Therefore the extra vacuum
ambient energy background should make the chemical
reactions much faster. Is this right? I hope you
understand what I mean. It's not normal so think
harder. Thanks.
Very little chemistry takes place within a neutron star.
If you managed to alter the basic character of the universe by very much, I
doubt that anyone or anything we can understand would be around to observe
the effects.
--
bz
please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.
bz+sp@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: excited states, equilibrium, chemical reactions... |
26 Mar 2005 04:30:27 AM |
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bz wrote:
"Jack" <chemphysicsdude@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1111811388.234785.189510
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Second, supposed future technology can alter the
vacuum and the ground energy state of the atoms got
higher energy than the ambient quantum vacuum
fluctuations existing now. What would happen to
the atoms. Since the quantum orbital levels are fixed.
It can't go further down to the nucleus since it is
already in ground state. Therefore the extra vacuum
ambient energy background should make the chemical
reactions much faster. Is this right? I hope you
understand what I mean. It's not normal so think
harder. Thanks.
Very little chemistry takes place within a neutron star.
If you managed to alter the basic character of the universe by very
much, I
doubt that anyone or anything we can understand would be around to
observe
the effects.
I'm talking of only very very small amount of alterations in the
vacuum constants. In fact. I heard about this in russian experiments
where they use psychotronic devices to alter the vacuum changing
chemical reactions rates and molecular expressions. I just want to
know the extend of the effect it can cause and the theoretical basis
of it all.
Jack
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| User: "bz" |
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| Title: Re: excited states, equilibrium, chemical reactions... |
26 Mar 2005 06:09:31 AM |
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"Jack" <chemphysicsdude@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1111833027.785526.180950@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
bz wrote:
"Jack" <chemphysicsdude@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1111811388.234785.189510
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Second, supposed future technology can alter the
vacuum and the ground energy state of the atoms got
higher energy than the ambient quantum vacuum
fluctuations existing now. What would happen to
the atoms. Since the quantum orbital levels are fixed.
It can't go further down to the nucleus since it is
already in ground state. Therefore the extra vacuum
ambient energy background should make the chemical
reactions much faster. Is this right? I hope you
understand what I mean. It's not normal so think
harder. Thanks.
Very little chemistry takes place within a neutron star.
If you managed to alter the basic character of the universe by very
much, I doubt that anyone or anything we can understand would be around
to observe the effects.
I'm talking of only very very small amount of alterations in the
vacuum constants. In fact. I heard about this in russian experiments
where they use psychotronic devices to alter the vacuum changing
chemical reactions rates and molecular expressions. I just want to
know the extend of the effect it can cause and the theoretical basis
of it all.
All it would take is a very tiny change.
What would you do if all atoms collapsed into neutrons?
BTW, if you belive in pychotronic devices, I have a great deal for you on
a slightly used bridge.
--
bz
please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.
bz+sp@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: excited states, equilibrium, chemical reactions... |
26 Mar 2005 07:30:16 AM |
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bz wrote:
"Jack" <chemphysicsdude@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1111833027.785526.180950@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
bz wrote:
"Jack" <chemphysicsdude@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1111811388.234785.189510
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Second, supposed future technology can alter the
vacuum and the ground energy state of the atoms got
higher energy than the ambient quantum vacuum
fluctuations existing now. What would happen to
the atoms. Since the quantum orbital levels are fixed.
It can't go further down to the nucleus since it is
already in ground state. Therefore the extra vacuum
ambient energy background should make the chemical
reactions much faster. Is this right? I hope you
understand what I mean. It's not normal so think
harder. Thanks.
Very little chemistry takes place within a neutron star.
If you managed to alter the basic character of the universe by
very
much, I doubt that anyone or anything we can understand would be
around
to observe the effects.
I'm talking of only very very small amount of alterations in the
vacuum constants. In fact. I heard about this in russian
experiments
where they use psychotronic devices to alter the vacuum changing
chemical reactions rates and molecular expressions. I just want to
know the extend of the effect it can cause and the theoretical
basis
of it all.
All it would take is a very tiny change.
What would you do if all atoms collapsed into neutrons?
What is that supposed to mean??
Supposed you can change the value of the quantum vacuum
at 3% or make the quantum fluctuations more coherent. How would
that collapse the atoms into neutrons?? Pls. elaborate.
Jack
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: excited states, equilibrium, chemical reactions... |
26 Mar 2005 08:33:34 AM |
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bz,
Let me clarify.
If the proton is just 1% heavier, it would decay into neutron
and all nuclei would become unstable and disintegate.
If the strong nuclear force were just a bit weaker, nuclei like
deuterium would fly apart and none of the elements could
be cooked up. If the nucleaur force were a bit stronger,
stars would burn their nuclear fuel too quickly and life
couldn't evolve.
If we vary the strength of the weak force making it weaker,
neutrinos would harly interact and no elements beyond iron
would be made because no energy can come from supernovae that
neutrinos are said to carry. If weak force were a bit stronger,
neutrinos might not escape properly from a star's core, again
preventing the creation of the higher elements that make up our
bodies and our world.
Are you referring to the above wherein if the constant in the vaccum
is changed, we would cease to exist. Well. I'm just referring to
the ground state energy. Why. Does the Vacuum use the same
mechanism in giving value to the ground state energy of the orbitals
and giving the value to the virtual particles involved in the strength
of the
strong and weak force?? Or do they use dissimilar mechanism. Pls.
share what mechanism the vacuum use in each of them.
Jack
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| User: "bz" |
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| Title: Re: excited states, equilibrium, chemical reactions... |
26 Mar 2005 10:01:56 AM |
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"Jack" <chemphysicsdude@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1111847614.173577.128690
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
Are you referring to the above wherein if the constant in the vaccum
is changed, we would cease to exist. Well. I'm just referring to
the ground state energy. Why. Does the Vacuum use the same
mechanism in giving value to the ground state energy of the orbitals
and giving the value to the virtual particles involved in the strength
of the
strong and weak force?? Or do they use dissimilar mechanism. Pls.
share what mechanism the vacuum use in each of them.
I have seen NO evidence that a vacuum has any energy states. If a photon is
traveling through the vacuum, that is different. If an electric field or a
magnetic field or a gravity field passes through the vacuum, that is
different, but I have yet to see any evidence that an isolated vacuum has
any energy states.
--
bz
please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.
bz+sp@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
.
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: excited states, equilibrium, chemical reactions... |
27 Mar 2005 06:47:00 AM |
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bz wrote:
I have seen NO evidence that a vacuum has any energy states. If a
photon is
traveling through the vacuum, that is different. If an electric field
or a
magnetic field or a gravity field passes through the vacuum, that is
different, but I have yet to see any evidence that an isolated vacuum
has
any energy states.
What are you talking about?? Let's agree first on what really is
the quantum vacuum. What is your thought of the following
description of the vacuum? I'll comment about it after it.
"In quantum physics the quantum vacuum is defined as the lowest
energy state of a system of which the equations obey wave
mechanics and special relativity. It is considerably more than
just the state of a system, however. It is the locus of a vast
energy field that is neither classically electromagnetic nor
gravitational, nor yet nuclear in nature. Instead, it is the
originating source of the known electromagnetic, gravitational,
and nuclear forces and fields. It is the originating source of
matter itself.
The technical definitions of the quantum vacuum point to a
continuous energy sea in which particles of matter are specific
substructures. According to Paul Dirac's calculation, all
particles in positive energy states have negative- energy
counterparts (by now such" antiparticles" have been found
experimentally for all presently known particles). The zero-
ppoint field of the quantum vacuum is a "Dirac- sea": a sea of
particles in the negative energy state. These particles are not
observable - physicists cal l them "virtual." But they are not
fictional for all that. By stimulating the negative energy states
of the ZPF with sufficient energy (of the order of 10- 27 erg), a
particular region of it can be "kicked" into the real (that is,
observable) state of positive energy. This is the process known
as pair- creation: out of the vacuum emerges a positive energy
(real) particle, with a negative energy (virtual) particle
remaining in it. Thus the Dirac- sea is everywhere; the
observable universe floats, as it were, on its surface. The
quantum vacuum contains a staggering density of energy. John
Wheeler estimated its matter- equivalent at 1094 gram per cm3 -
and that is more than all the matter in the universe put
together. Compared with this energy density, the energy of the
nucleus of the atom - the most energetic chunk of matter in the
known universe - seems almost minuscule: it is "merely" 1014
gram/cm3. The vacuum itself is not material: its zero- point
energies - exceed al l the energies bound in matter 1040 time s -
are in the negative state. This is fortunate, for if they were
not, the universe would instantly collapse to a size smaller than
the radius of an atom. (This follows from E = mc2, Einstein's
celebrated mass- energy equivalence relation: energy corresponds
to mass, and mass in turn entails gravitation.) Because the
"real" world of matter - that is, of energy bound in mass - is so
much less energetic than the vacuum, the observable universe is
not a solid condensate floating on top of the vacuum, but like a
set of bubbles suspended in it. In terms of energy, the material
world is not a solidification of the quantum vacuum, but a
thinning of it."
bz, what do you think of the above?? My question is whether the
vacuum characteristics or mechanism for creating the strong force
is similar to the one that set the ground state energy. Meaning
if you can change the value of the ground state energy. Would
this result theoretically in alteration of the strong force
collapsing matter itself, etc.. I still can't imagine how it all
occur.
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| User: "bz" |
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| Title: Re: excited states, equilibrium, chemical reactions... |
27 Mar 2005 08:58:47 AM |
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"Jack" <chemphysicsdude@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1111927619.992223.79880
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
These particles are not
observable - physicists cal l them "virtual."
....
Thus the Dirac- sea is everywhere; the
observable universe floats, as it were, on its surface.
....
In terms of energy, the material
world is not a solidification of the quantum vacuum, but a
thinning of it."
bz, what do you think of the above??
I think it is a useful fiction that allows useful formula to make sense
even under conditions that can not really be visualized or tested.
My question is whether the
vacuum characteristics or mechanism for creating the strong force
is similar to the one that set the ground state energy.
Meaning
if you can change the value of the ground state energy.
How easy is it to change the level of the sea?
Would
this result theoretically in alteration of the strong force
collapsing matter itself, etc.. I still can't imagine how it all
occur.
When they tested the first H bomb there was a fear and perhaps even a
danger that they would trigger a self sustaining chain reaction that would
distroy the earth.
Perhaps the big bang that started our universe was the result of some
experimenter colliding very high energy particles and triggering the
collapse of his universe.
We will never know because we could not survive to know what happened.
--
bz
please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.
bz+sp@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
.
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| User: "Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com" |
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| Title: Re: excited states, equilibrium, chemical reactions... |
25 Mar 2005 08:35:41 PM |
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You mean to say no matter what kind of
chemical reactions. The electrons are all
in ground states and only electromagnetic
wave can trigger the electrons to become
excited??
What happens to the chemical reactions
if you bombard it with electromagnetic
wave turning the electrons into excited
states. Can't you affect any parameters
of the reactions?? <<
Yes, you can do this with a laser. But the most common way to initiate
chemical reactions is with heat. When the atoms physically run into
each other, the kinetic energy can be, and and somes is, used to excite
electrons to different orbitals, and they can move from there, if the
atoms are close enough, into molecular orbitals which encompass both
atoms and make a bond. Old bonds are broken in similar ways-- either by
simply breaking up a molecule on impact with another, or by
degradation, as exited electrons from an old bond migrate over to form
a bond they like better, and thereby dissolve the previous bond,
leaving the atoms that compose it free.
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: excited states, equilibrium, chemical reactions... |
25 Mar 2005 09:18:52 PM |
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Therefore if future technology can affect the vacuum. You can change
ground
state into excited state and this can alter the chemical reactions,
right?
Let me be more specific. What is your thought about the so called
"standard
state chemical potential". How is it related to the quantum vacuum? I
mean,
if the value of the quantum vacuum changes, the "standard state
chemical
potential" can be altered hence changing chemical reactions rates, etc.
right?
Jack
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