Science > Physics > Feeble Cry For Help In Building Alcohol Cloud Chamber with Thermo Electric Converters
| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Israel Lopez" |
| Date: |
22 Dec 2004 02:53:21 AM |
| Object: |
Feeble Cry For Help In Building Alcohol Cloud Chamber with Thermo Electric Converters |
Hello,
My Name is Israel Lopez. I am a junior at San Clemente High School in San
Clemente, CA.
I am very adept and keen to science. Bill Nye was my hero when I was 6
years old :).
Anyway, I have chosen to build an Alcohol Cloud chamber after a colleague
was discussing a chat he had with a microchip engineer, talking about cloud
chambers. Since he wasn't the engineer, I had to look it up on my own. I
found Andrew Foland's Page over at Cornell -
http://w4.lns.cornell.edu/~adf4/cloud.html. I toyed with the idea, its
relatively simple to make. But at that time, I had to study for an Algebra
test and stuffed the idea aside. But later, when our chem. class was going
over the electromagnetic spectrum, and the different particles ejected from
a decaying nucleus, you know Alpha, Beta, Gamma.... The idea immediately
surfaced again, and I started to make plans to build an Alcohol Cloud
Chamber.
Here is what I'm planning on doing. I plan on instead of using Dry Ice
which has a temperature between -109.3°F and 78.5°C. I have looked for a
solution to not use such a perishable source of my cold substance. Another
colleague was telling me that he was going to use a Peltier Injunction (TEC)
to cool a soda can, on his desk. (Mind you I work at a Datacenter, and we
on occasion have free time to pursue random enjoyments) So, ahh.. a Peltier
injunction (TEC) I heard of these units... one side is hot and the other
cold. Just going off that.. I found one on eBay.. a
Model CP1-12726
50mm x 50mm x 3.64mm
245 - 320 Watts of cooling power
Operates from 0-15.4 volts DC and 0-26 amps
Operates from -60 deg C to +175 deg C
Unfortunately.. I impulse purchased the unit, and found out later there was
little to no documentation on the unit at all... the only information I
could find was a Greek electronics store PDF.
(http://new-electronics.gr/docs/12726-12730.pdf)
Today I received the unit, and I planned on testing it out. I used a normal
ATX Computer Power supply. Mainly because it was able to supply the amount
of power I thought I had needed. 350Watt powersupply to be exact.
I hooked the leads up to the DC 5v (26Amp Max) circuit, and let her rip with
a copper heat sink on one side. Needless to say I was surprised to see that
the unit did not cool at all.. it got a side of warm, while the other side
was really really hot. I had a spot thermometer, but I did not write down
the readings. Okk.. so lets try the other circuit
Try this again.. I tried the other circuit.. DC 12v (13Amp Max). Here goes
nothing.. I let her rip... the fan is really blowing hot air. I check, the
side that is closest to me.. (The fan is inverted to the desk, the input air
flow goes over the fins of the heatsink, and then ejects the air through the
side) it is 80°F and the other side is a remarkable 357°F... my left index
finger is burned.
Holding my head down in shame.. I open up wikipedia to try to find out maybe
im going about this the wrong way.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltier-Seebeck_effect#Peltier_effect)
This is where I hit my dead end. How can I get the unit to produce
temperatures below -60°C ?
======================
Israel Lopez
iLopez.com Administrator
Email:
AIM: israel949
.
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| User: "Old Man" |
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| Title: Re: Feeble Cry For Help In Building Alcohol Cloud Chamber with Thermo Electric Converters |
22 Dec 2004 03:45:11 PM |
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"Israel Lopez" <israel@ochosting.com> wrote in message
news:RBayd.10001$iD.9364@fed1read05...
Hello,
My Name is Israel Lopez. I am a junior at San Clemente High School in San
Clemente, CA.
I am very adept and keen to science. Bill Nye was my hero when I was 6
years old :).
Anyway, I have chosen to build an Alcohol Cloud chamber after a colleague
was discussing a chat he had with a microchip engineer, talking about
cloud chambers. Since he wasn't the engineer, I had to look it up on my
own. I found Andrew Foland's Page over at Cornell -
http://w4.lns.cornell.edu/~adf4/cloud.html. I toyed with the idea, its
relatively simple to make. But at that time, I had to study for an
Algebra test and stuffed the idea aside. But later, when our chem. class
was going over the electromagnetic spectrum, and the different particles
ejected from a decaying nucleus, you know Alpha, Beta, Gamma.... The idea
immediately surfaced again, and I started to make plans to build an
Alcohol Cloud Chamber.
Here is what I'm planning on doing. I plan on instead of using Dry Ice
which has a temperature between -109.3°F and 78.5°C. I have looked for a
solution to not use such a perishable source of my cold substance.
Another colleague was telling me that he was going to use a Peltier
Injunction (TEC) to cool a soda can, on his desk. (Mind you I work at a
Datacenter, and we on occasion have free time to pursue random enjoyments)
So, ahh.. a Peltier injunction (TEC) I heard of these units... one side is
hot and the other cold. Just going off that.. I found one on eBay.. a
Model CP1-12726
50mm x 50mm x 3.64mm
245 - 320 Watts of cooling power
Operates from 0-15.4 volts DC and 0-26 amps
Operates from -60 deg C to +175 deg C
Unfortunately.. I impulse purchased the unit, and found out later there
was little to no documentation on the unit at all... the only information
I could find was a Greek electronics store PDF.
(http://new-electronics.gr/docs/12726-12730.pdf)
Today I received the unit, and I planned on testing it out. I used a
normal ATX Computer Power supply. Mainly because it was able to supply
the amount of power I thought I had needed. 350Watt powersupply to be
exact.
I hooked the leads up to the DC 5v (26Amp Max) circuit, and let her rip
with a copper heat sink on one side. Needless to say I was surprised to
see that the unit did not cool at all.. it got a side of warm, while the
other side was really really hot. I had a spot thermometer, but I did not
write down the readings. Okk.. so lets try the other circuit
Try this again.. I tried the other circuit.. DC 12v (13Amp Max). Here
goes nothing.. I let her rip... the fan is really blowing hot air. I
check, the side that is closest to me.. (The fan is inverted to the desk,
the input air flow goes over the fins of the heatsink, and then ejects the
air through the side) it is 80°F and the other side is a remarkable
357°F... my left index finger is burned.
Holding my head down in shame.. I open up wikipedia to try to find out
maybe im going about this the wrong way.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltier-Seebeck_effect#Peltier_effect)
This is where I hit my dead end. How can I get the unit to produce
temperatures below -60°C ?
======================
Israel Lopez
iLopez.com Administrator
Email:
AIM: israel949
Maximum heat flow rate through the Peltier device is
proportiional to the electrical current that flows though
the device. The response to applied voltage is non-linear.
So, forget about the voltage (except for polarity), and
monitor the electrical current.
You must make good thermal contact between the heat
sink and the hot side of the Peltier device. Use thermal
conducting grease or thermal conducting glue. The same
is true for thermal contact with the cold side, but thermal
conducting grease may not work well at low temperatures.
Water cooling, maybe even ice water cooling, rather than
air cooling, of the heat sink is probably required.
Thermally insulate the cloud chamber from ambient air
temperature.
[Old Man]
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| User: "Androcles" |
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| Title: Re: Feeble Cry For Help In Building Alcohol Cloud Chamber with Thermo Electric Converters |
22 Dec 2004 04:19:16 AM |
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"Israel Lopez" <israel@ochosting.com> wrote in message
news:RBayd.10001$iD.9364@fed1read05...
This is where I hit my dead end. How can I get the unit to produce
temperatures below -60°C ?
======================
Israel Lopez
iLopez.com Administrator
Email:
AIM: israel949
Put the heat sink on the hot side.
Androcles.
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| User: "Greg Neill" |
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| Title: Re: Feeble Cry For Help In Building Alcohol Cloud Chamber with Thermo Electric Converters |
22 Dec 2004 10:35:56 AM |
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"Israel Lopez" <israel@ochosting.com> wrote in message
news:RBayd.10001$iD.9364@fed1read05...
[snip]
Model CP1-12726
50mm x 50mm x 3.64mm
245 - 320 Watts of cooling power
Operates from 0-15.4 volts DC and 0-26 amps
Operates from -60 deg C to +175 deg C
[snip]
Holding my head down in shame.. I open up wikipedia to try to find out
maybe im going about this the wrong way.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltier-Seebeck_effect#Peltier_effect)
This is where I hit my dead end. How can I get the unit to produce
temperatures below -60°C ?
Have a look here:
http://xtremesystems.org/forums/printthread.php?t=28294&pp=60
Somehow I doubt that you'll be able to sink enough heat
with a single peltier device, but that's just a guess.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Feeble Cry For Help In Building Alcohol Cloud Chamber with Thermo Electric Converters |
22 Dec 2004 12:56:22 PM |
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That is what i was thinking. At this moment.. ill upload my pictures
of my particular setup...
What i was looking for was, at what Voltage and amperage should I run
the unit. I thought it had to run at a certain voltage and amperage to
achieve the type of effect you had wanted.
This is a link to an Image of the Heatsink im using -
(http://www.atacom.com/html3/FA47/graphics/FA47_ATAC_1U_03_more.jpg)
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| User: "Repeating Rifle" |
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| Title: Re: Feeble Cry For Help In Building Alcohol Cloud Chamber withThermo Electric Converters |
22 Dec 2004 04:44:07 PM |
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Here are a few hints. The original post was too long and complicated to
post.
The term is *junction* not *injunction*.
Make sure sure the polarity driving the cooler is correct.
The junction will generate heat. that has to be removed What it does is to
make one side cooler than the other. If you using the correct polarity,
remove the generated heat by cooling the hot side with ice or some other
heat sink.
It would be a good idea to have a source of particles. Thorium mantles are
no longer being made although you may be able to find some old ones.
Polonium brushes have been made to remove dust from negatives. They may
still be available but I do not know for sure.
Bill
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Feeble Cry For Help In Building Alcohol Cloud Chamber with Thermo Electric Converters |
24 Dec 2004 06:57:41 AM |
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A lot of low level radioactive stuff (old lantern mantels, old
fiestaware, etc) can still be obtained through ebay.
Somebody posted here, a while ago, a procedure for collecting radon
decay products from the air, using a statically charged balloon. Could
one possibly collect enough radon decay products in this manner to
detect them in a homemade cloud chamber?
Dave
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Feeble Cry For Help In Building Alcohol Cloud Chamber with Thermo Electric Converters |
22 Dec 2004 08:46:02 AM |
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Israel Lopez wrote:
Hello,
My Name is Israel Lopez. I am a junior at San Clemente High School
in San
Clemente, CA.
I am very adept and keen to science. Bill Nye was my hero when I was
6
years old :).
Anyway, I have chosen to build an Alcohol Cloud chamber after a
colleague
was discussing a chat he had with a microchip engineer, talking about
cloud
chambers. Since he wasn't the engineer, I had to look it up on my
own. I
found Andrew Foland's Page over at Cornell -
http://w4.lns.cornell.edu/~adf4/cloud.html. I toyed with the idea,
its
relatively simple to make. But at that time, I had to study for an
Algebra
test and stuffed the idea aside. But later, when our chem. class was
going
over the electromagnetic spectrum, and the different particles
ejected from
a decaying nucleus, you know Alpha, Beta, Gamma.... The idea
immediately
surfaced again, and I started to make plans to build an Alcohol Cloud
Chamber.
I have tried building a cloud chamber myself, using equipment specially
designed for that purpose which I found in my school's science
storeroom. I could not get the vapor trails to form, even using dry
ice and isopropanol. Given the potential challenges of simply forming
the clouds and detecting vapor trails, Perhaps you should start with
dry ice before fiddling with an alternate cooling system, which will
introduce its own set of problems.
By the way, what are you using for your radiation source, or are you
just looking for cosmic radiation?
Dave
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Feeble Cry For Help In Building Alcohol Cloud Chamber with Thermo Electric Converters |
22 Dec 2004 12:30:42 PM |
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wrote:
Israel Lopez wrote:
Hello,
My Name is Israel Lopez. I am a junior at San Clemente High School
in San
Clemente, CA.
I am very adept and keen to science. Bill Nye was my hero when I
was
6
years old :).
Anyway, I have chosen to build an Alcohol Cloud chamber after a
colleague
was discussing a chat he had with a microchip engineer, talking
about
cloud
chambers. Since he wasn't the engineer, I had to look it up on my
own. I
found Andrew Foland's Page over at Cornell -
http://w4.lns.cornell.edu/~adf4/cloud.html. I toyed with the idea,
its
relatively simple to make. But at that time, I had to study for an
Algebra
test and stuffed the idea aside. But later, when our chem. class
was
going
over the electromagnetic spectrum, and the different particles
ejected from
a decaying nucleus, you know Alpha, Beta, Gamma.... The idea
immediately
surfaced again, and I started to make plans to build an Alcohol
Cloud
Chamber.
I have tried building a cloud chamber myself, using equipment
specially
designed for that purpose which I found in my school's science
storeroom. I could not get the vapor trails to form, even using dry
ice and isopropanol. Given the potential challenges of simply
forming
the clouds and detecting vapor trails, Perhaps you should start with
dry ice before fiddling with an alternate cooling system, which will
introduce its own set of problems.
By the way, what are you using for your radiation source, or are you
just looking for cosmic radiation?
Dave
At the moment, only comsic radiation. Im just going to demonstrate
that such particles do exist in the universe. But they are too small
to even see.. but they still cause damage.
.
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| User: "Marshall Dudley" |
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| Title: Re: Feeble Cry For Help In Building Alcohol Cloud Chamber with ThermoElectric Converters |
22 Dec 2004 09:23:09 AM |
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|
I might suggest a lantern mantel as a hot unregulated radiation source.
Marshall
dgenglish@hotmail.com wrote:
Israel Lopez wrote:
Hello,
My Name is Israel Lopez. I am a junior at San Clemente High School
in San
Clemente, CA.
I am very adept and keen to science. Bill Nye was my hero when I was
6
years old :).
Anyway, I have chosen to build an Alcohol Cloud chamber after a
colleague
was discussing a chat he had with a microchip engineer, talking about
cloud
chambers. Since he wasn't the engineer, I had to look it up on my
own. I
found Andrew Foland's Page over at Cornell -
http://w4.lns.cornell.edu/~adf4/cloud.html. I toyed with the idea,
its
relatively simple to make. But at that time, I had to study for an
Algebra
test and stuffed the idea aside. But later, when our chem. class was
going
over the electromagnetic spectrum, and the different particles
ejected from
a decaying nucleus, you know Alpha, Beta, Gamma.... The idea
immediately
surfaced again, and I started to make plans to build an Alcohol Cloud
Chamber.
I have tried building a cloud chamber myself, using equipment specially
designed for that purpose which I found in my school's science
storeroom. I could not get the vapor trails to form, even using dry
ice and isopropanol. Given the potential challenges of simply forming
the clouds and detecting vapor trails, Perhaps you should start with
dry ice before fiddling with an alternate cooling system, which will
introduce its own set of problems.
By the way, what are you using for your radiation source, or are you
just looking for cosmic radiation?
Dave
.
|
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Feeble Cry For Help In Building Alcohol Cloud Chamber with Thermo Electric Converters |
22 Dec 2004 09:04:50 AM |
|
|
Israel Lopez wrote:
Hello,
My Name is Israel Lopez. I am a junior at San Clemente High School
in San
Clemente, CA.
I am very adept and keen to science. Bill Nye was my hero when I was
6
years old :).
Anyway, I have chosen to build an Alcohol Cloud chamber after a
colleague
was discussing a chat he had with a microchip engineer, talking about
cloud
chambers. Since he wasn't the engineer, I had to look it up on my
own. I
found Andrew Foland's Page over at Cornell -
http://w4.lns.cornell.edu/~adf4/cloud.html. I toyed with the idea,
its
relatively simple to make. But at that time, I had to study for an
Algebra
test and stuffed the idea aside. But later, when our chem. class was
going
over the electromagnetic spectrum, and the different particles
ejected from
a decaying nucleus, you know Alpha, Beta, Gamma.... The idea
immediately
surfaced again, and I started to make plans to build an Alcohol Cloud
Chamber.
I have tried building a cloud chamber myself, using equipment specially
designed for that purpose which I found in my school's science
storeroom. I could not get the vapor trails to form, even using dry
ice and isopropanol. Given the potential challenges of simply forming
the clouds and detecting vapor trails, Perhaps you should start with
dry ice before fiddling with an alternate cooling system, which will
introduce its own set of problems.
By the way, what are you using for your radiation source, or are you
just looking for cosmic radiation?
Dave
Here is what I'm planning on doing. I plan on instead of using Dry
Ice
which has a temperature between -109.3=B0F and 78.5=B0C. I have looked
for a
solution to not use such a perishable source of my cold substance.
Another
colleague was telling me that he was going to use a Peltier
Injunction (TEC)
to cool a soda can, on his desk. (Mind you I work at a Datacenter,
and we
on occasion have free time to pursue random enjoyments) So, ahh.. a
Peltier
injunction (TEC) I heard of these units... one side is hot and the
other
cold. Just going off that.. I found one on eBay.. a
Model CP1-12726
50mm x 50mm x 3.64mm
245 - 320 Watts of cooling power
Operates from 0-15.4 volts DC and 0-26 amps
Operates from -60 deg C to +175 deg C
Unfortunately.. I impulse purchased the unit, and found out later
there was
little to no documentation on the unit at all... the only information
I
could find was a Greek electronics store PDF.
(http://new-electronics.gr/docs/12726-12730.pdf)
Today I received the unit, and I planned on testing it out. I used a
normal
ATX Computer Power supply. Mainly because it was able to supply the
amount
of power I thought I had needed. 350Watt powersupply to be exact.
I hooked the leads up to the DC 5v (26Amp Max) circuit, and let her
rip with
a copper heat sink on one side. Needless to say I was surprised to
see that
the unit did not cool at all.. it got a side of warm, while the other
side
was really really hot. I had a spot thermometer, but I did not write
down
the readings. Okk.. so lets try the other circuit
Try this again.. I tried the other circuit.. DC 12v (13Amp Max).
Here goes
nothing.. I let her rip... the fan is really blowing hot air. I
check, the
side that is closest to me.. (The fan is inverted to the desk, the
input air
flow goes over the fins of the heatsink, and then ejects the air
through the
side) it is 80=B0F and the other side is a remarkable 357=B0F... my
left index
finger is burned.
Holding my head down in shame.. I open up wikipedia to try to find
out maybe
im going about this the wrong way.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltier-Seebeck_effect#Peltier_effect)
This is where I hit my dead end. How can I get the unit to produce
temperatures below -60=B0C ?
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Israel Lopez
iLopez.com Administrator
Email:
AIM: israel949
.
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| User: "Rene Tschaggelar" |
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| Title: Re: Feeble Cry For Help In Building Alcohol Cloud Chamber with ThermoElectric Converters |
22 Dec 2004 02:04:31 PM |
|
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Israel Lopez wrote:
Today I received the unit, and I planned on testing it out. I used a n=
ormal=20
ATX Computer Power supply. Mainly because it was able to supply the am=
ount=20
of power I thought I had needed. 350Watt powersupply to be exact.
=20
I hooked the leads up to the DC 5v (26Amp Max) circuit, and let her rip=
with=20
a copper heat sink on one side. Needless to say I was surprised to see=
that=20
the unit did not cool at all.. it got a side of warm, while the other s=
ide=20
was really really hot. I had a spot thermometer, but I did not write d=
own=20
the readings. Okk.. so lets try the other circuit
=20
Try this again.. I tried the other circuit.. DC 12v (13Amp Max). Here =
goes=20
nothing.. I let her rip... the fan is really blowing hot air. I check,=
the=20
side that is closest to me.. (The fan is inverted to the desk, the inpu=
t air=20
flow goes over the fins of the heatsink, and then ejects the air throug=
h the=20
side) it is 80=B0F and the other side is a remarkable 357=B0F... my le=
ft index=20
finger is burned.
=20
Holding my head down in shame.. I open up wikipedia to try to find out =
maybe=20
im going about this the wrong way.=20
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltier-Seebeck_effect#Peltier_effect)
You may have burned it already.
The hot face is not allowed to excced 110DegC, which is a fraction
above the boiling point of water. You are expected to cool the hot
side to ambient. At this power level this is not a trivial project.
Usually, a solid piece of copper is to be mounted on each side,
excerting no (!) pressure. Then the passive side, in your case the hot=20
side is to be cooled with water (in smaller cases a heatsink) to
ambient or below. The max temperature difference is in the range
of 65 Kelvin.
Have a look at http://www.melcor.com for datasheets
Rene
--=20
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net
.
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| User: "Israel Lopez" |
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| Title: Re: Feeble Cry For Help In Building Alcohol Cloud Chamber with Thermo Electric Converters |
22 Dec 2004 02:25:20 PM |
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I was fearing that already... I thought the Heatsink I used was able to
remove enough heat. Hmm...
It might be a good idea to just use smaller well placed TEC's...
When I get to my office today.. Ill find a bigger Heatsink, and a bigger
Fan.. I have some ideas right now.... Otherwise.. ill try water cooling.
Anyone else can think of something I can use. I'll probably use Dry Ice as
a backup to the project. Maybe a radiator from a small fridge? But I think
it wouldnt produce the cold I need to supercool the vapor.
-Israel
"Rene Tschaggelar" <none@none.net> wrote in message
news:41c9d33c$0$30018$5402220f@news.sunrise.ch...
Israel Lopez wrote:
Today I received the unit, and I planned on testing it out. I used a
normal ATX Computer Power supply. Mainly because it was able to supply
the amount of power I thought I had needed. 350Watt powersupply to be
exact.
I hooked the leads up to the DC 5v (26Amp Max) circuit, and let her rip
with a copper heat sink on one side. Needless to say I was surprised to
see that the unit did not cool at all.. it got a side of warm, while the
other side was really really hot. I had a spot thermometer, but I did not
write down the readings. Okk.. so lets try the other circuit
Try this again.. I tried the other circuit.. DC 12v (13Amp Max). Here
goes nothing.. I let her rip... the fan is really blowing hot air. I
check, the side that is closest to me.. (The fan is inverted to the desk,
the input air flow goes over the fins of the heatsink, and then ejects the
air through the side) it is 80°F and the other side is a remarkable
357°F... my left index finger is burned.
Holding my head down in shame.. I open up wikipedia to try to find out
maybe im going about this the wrong way.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltier-Seebeck_effect#Peltier_effect)
You may have burned it already.
The hot face is not allowed to excced 110DegC, which is a fraction
above the boiling point of water. You are expected to cool the hot
side to ambient. At this power level this is not a trivial project.
Usually, a solid piece of copper is to be mounted on each side,
excerting no (!) pressure. Then the passive side, in your case the hot
side is to be cooled with water (in smaller cases a heatsink) to
ambient or below. The max temperature difference is in the range
of 65 Kelvin.
Have a look at http://www.melcor.com for datasheets
Rene
--
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net
.
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| User: "Boris Mohar" |
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| Title: Re: Feeble Cry For Help In Building Alcohol Cloud Chamber with Thermo Electric Converters |
22 Dec 2004 06:38:45 PM |
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On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:25:20 -0800, "Israel Lopez" <israel@ochosting.com>
wrote:
I was fearing that already... I thought the Heatsink I used was able to
remove enough heat. Hmm...
It might be a good idea to just use smaller well placed TEC's...
When I get to my office today.. Ill find a bigger Heatsink, and a bigger
Fan.. I have some ideas right now.... Otherwise.. ill try water cooling.
Stack one petier on top of four others.
Anyone else can think of something I can use. I'll probably use Dry Ice as
a backup to the project. Maybe a radiator from a small fridge? But I think
it wouldnt produce the cold I need to supercool the vapor.
-Israel
Peltiers are tricky. The cold side does not keep getting colder as you
increase the current. The temperature difference between the two sides
increases.
http://www.overclockers.com/tips45/
Water cooling is a good idea. You really got to dump the heat form the hot
side.
--
Boris Mohar
.
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