| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Andrey" |
| Date: |
04 Mar 2006 08:36:08 PM |
| Object: |
freezing water question |
Hi,
A simple question, perhaps trivial. It is a known fact that when
water freezes it expands. It has also been observed that this
process can produce tremendous forces capable of tearing apart any
kind of container. The question is: where the energy for that comes
from?
Thanks!
Andrey
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: freezing water question |
04 Mar 2006 09:56:51 PM |
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Andrey wrote:
Hi,
A simple question, perhaps trivial. It is a known fact that when water
freezes it expands. It has also been observed that this process can
produce tremendous forces capable of tearing apart any kind of
container. The question is: where the energy for that comes from?
Thanks!
Andrey
Ask your self what is different about the water in the two state
liquid and sold... which had the most kinetic energy... where
did it go?
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| User: "Andrey" |
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| Title: Re: freezing water question |
04 Mar 2006 10:09:01 PM |
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OK, the change in the amount of kinetic energy can be measured as
heat absorbed during melting, right? I think there is a drastic
difference between amount of energy required to melt half a gallon
of water and amount of energy required to tear apart couple of feet
of steel pipe. Besides, does water enclosed in a tight container
freeze at a lower temperature because so much more energy is
required to break that container as part of freezing process
compared to free freezing?
Sam Wormley wrote:
Andrey wrote:
Hi,
A simple question, perhaps trivial. It is a known fact that when water
freezes it expands. It has also been observed that this process can
produce tremendous forces capable of tearing apart any kind of
container. The question is: where the energy for that comes from?
Thanks!
Andrey
Ask your self what is different about the water in the two state
liquid and sold... which had the most kinetic energy... where
did it go?
.
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| User: "Paul Cardinale" |
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| Title: Re: freezing water question |
04 Mar 2006 10:32:44 PM |
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Andrey wrote:
OK, the change in the amount of kinetic energy can be measured as
heat absorbed during melting, right? I think there is a drastic
difference between amount of energy required to melt half a gallon
of water and amount of energy required to tear apart couple of feet
of steel pipe.
Not only is that incorrect, there's no reason for you to think that it
might be.
Besides, does water enclosed in a tight container
freeze at a lower temperature because so much more energy is
required to break that container as part of freezing process
compared to free freezing?
No. Upon freezing, water releases energy; usually in the form of heat.
When it's frozen in a closed container, some of the energy is released
as kinetic energy instead of heat; i.e. the surroundings heat up less
than if the water had frozen in the open.
Paul Cardinale
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| User: "Andrey" |
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| Title: Re: freezing water question |
05 Mar 2006 08:25:38 AM |
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Not only is that incorrect, there's no reason for you to think that it
might be.
Well, the simple explanation is the impression of a seemingly huge
difference: I saw a big boulder cracked in halves by expanding water
that got inside through a tiny crack - the amount of water is really
tiny, and still it released enough energy to do the job. That
seemingly disproportional effect raised the question. I would've
done the calculations if I had a remote idea how to estimate energy
required to break material.
as kinetic energy instead of heat; i.e. the surroundings heat up less
than if the water had frozen in the open.
So, in other words you're saying that if the container was strong
enough there would be no expansion on freezing as the amount of
released energy won't be enough? You'd then get pressurized
compressed ice that will expand upon release just as gases do?
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| User: "Paul Cardinale" |
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| Title: Re: freezing water question |
05 Mar 2006 01:13:28 PM |
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Andrey wrote:
Not only is that incorrect, there's no reason for you to think that it
might be.
Well, the simple explanation is the impression of a seemingly huge
difference: I saw a big boulder cracked in halves by expanding water
that got inside through a tiny crack - the amount of water is really
tiny, and still it released enough energy to do the job. That
seemingly disproportional effect raised the question. I would've
done the calculations if I had a remote idea how to estimate energy
required to break material.
The energy required to crack an object is the integral of force over
distance (for constant force, energy is force times distance).
Although the force required to crack a rock is large, the distance over
which that force need be applied is quite tiny.
as kinetic energy instead of heat; i.e. the surroundings heat up less
than if the water had frozen in the open.
So, in other words you're saying that if the container was strong
enough there would be no expansion on freezing as the amount of
released energy won't be enough?
Since there are no perfectly rigid materials, there would always be
some amount of expansion.
You'd then get pressurized
compressed ice that will expand upon release just as gases do?
Yes.
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| User: "Andrey" |
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| Title: Re: freezing water question |
05 Mar 2006 07:56:07 PM |
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Makes perfect sense now. Thanks!
Andrey
Paul Cardinale wrote:
Andrey wrote:
Not only is that incorrect, there's no reason for you to think that it
might be.
Well, the simple explanation is the impression of a seemingly huge
difference: I saw a big boulder cracked in halves by expanding water
that got inside through a tiny crack - the amount of water is really
tiny, and still it released enough energy to do the job. That
seemingly disproportional effect raised the question. I would've
done the calculations if I had a remote idea how to estimate energy
required to break material.
The energy required to crack an object is the integral of force over
distance (for constant force, energy is force times distance).
Although the force required to crack a rock is large, the distance over
which that force need be applied is quite tiny.
as kinetic energy instead of heat; i.e. the surroundings heat up less
than if the water had frozen in the open.
So, in other words you're saying that if the container was strong
enough there would be no expansion on freezing as the amount of
released energy won't be enough?
Since there are no perfectly rigid materials, there would always be
some amount of expansion.
You'd then get pressurized
compressed ice that will expand upon release just as gases do?
Yes.
.
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| User: "Richard Tobin" |
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| Title: Re: freezing water question |
06 Mar 2006 10:12:43 AM |
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In article <1141533164.292158.68210@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Paul Cardinale <pcardinale@volcanomail.com> wrote:
No. Upon freezing, water releases energy; usually in the form of heat.
When it's frozen in a closed container, some of the energy is released
as kinetic energy instead of heat; i.e. the surroundings heat up less
than if the water had frozen in the open.
So a refrigerator needs less energy to freeze water in a closed
container?
-- Richard
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| User: "Paul Cardinale" |
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| Title: Re: freezing water question |
06 Mar 2006 01:47:20 PM |
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Richard Tobin wrote:
In article <1141533164.292158.68210@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Paul Cardinale <pcardinale@volcanomail.com> wrote:
No. Upon freezing, water releases energy; usually in the form of heat.
When it's frozen in a closed container, some of the energy is released
as kinetic energy instead of heat; i.e. the surroundings heat up less
than if the water had frozen in the open.
So a refrigerator needs less energy to freeze water in a closed
container?
Not significantly (assuming that the armor in the refrigerator prevents
the explosion from destroying the refrigerator). Most of the kinetic
energy in the pieces flying away from the bursting container eventually
gets converted to heat energy.
Paul Cardinale
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| User: "Richard Tobin" |
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| Title: Re: freezing water question |
06 Mar 2006 04:09:43 PM |
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In article <1141674439.906653.191990@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
Paul Cardinale <pcardinale@volcanomail.com> wrote:
No. Upon freezing, water releases energy; usually in the form of heat.
When it's frozen in a closed container, some of the energy is released
as kinetic energy instead of heat; i.e. the surroundings heat up less
than if the water had frozen in the open.
So a refrigerator needs less energy to freeze water in a closed
container?
Not significantly (assuming that the armor in the refrigerator prevents
the explosion from destroying the refrigerator). Most of the kinetic
energy in the pieces flying away from the bursting container eventually
gets converted to heat energy.
Sorry, I was unclear. I meant a closed container capable of resisting
the expansion without breaking, so that it absorbs the energy as
tension in the walls of the container, or perhaps has spring-loaded
walls that absorb the energy in the springs. (In the latter case, you
could recover some the energy as well as using less electricity.)
-- Richard
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| User: "Paul Cardinale" |
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| Title: Re: freezing water question |
06 Mar 2006 06:04:56 PM |
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Richard Tobin wrote:
In article <1141674439.906653.191990@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
Paul Cardinale <pcardinale@volcanomail.com> wrote:
No. Upon freezing, water releases energy; usually in the form of heat.
When it's frozen in a closed container, some of the energy is released
as kinetic energy instead of heat; i.e. the surroundings heat up less
than if the water had frozen in the open.
So a refrigerator needs less energy to freeze water in a closed
container?
Not significantly (assuming that the armor in the refrigerator prevents
the explosion from destroying the refrigerator). Most of the kinetic
energy in the pieces flying away from the bursting container eventually
gets converted to heat energy.
Sorry, I was unclear. I meant a closed container capable of resisting
the expansion without breaking, so that it absorbs the energy as
tension in the walls of the container, or perhaps has spring-loaded
walls that absorb the energy in the springs. (In the latter case, you
could recover some the energy as well as using less electricity.)
Sure. Any energy that would have been released as heat, but instead is
stored somewhere, reduces the load on the refrigerator. A refrigerator
is a heat pump, if you cut back on the heat that you deliver to it, it
has less work to do. Note however that the pressure in such a case
would be enormous. You would be hard pressed to find a container that
wouldn't burst.
Paul Cardinale
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: freezing water question |
06 Mar 2006 11:16:12 PM |
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Paul Cardinale wrote:
Sure. Any energy that would have been released as heat, but instead is
stored somewhere, reduces the load on the refrigerator. A refrigerator
is a heat pump, if you cut back on the heat that you deliver to it, it
has less work to do. Note however that the pressure in such a case
would be enormous. You would be hard pressed to find a container that
wouldn't burst.
A diamond anvil press ought to do it.
http://nvl.nist.gov/pub/nistpubs/sp958-lide/100-103.pdf
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: freezing water question |
04 Mar 2006 10:24:49 PM |
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Andrey wrote:
OK, the change in the amount of kinetic energy can be measured as heat
absorbed during melting, right? I think there is a drastic difference
between amount of energy required to melt half a gallon of water and
amount of energy required to tear apart couple of feet of steel pipe.
Besides, does water enclosed in a tight container freeze at a lower
temperature because so much more energy is required to break that
container as part of freezing process compared to free freezing?
Have you done a calculation?
A calculation is worth more than a thousand "I think there is...".
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| User: "Andrey" |
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| Title: Re: freezing water question |
05 Mar 2006 08:11:09 AM |
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agreed, but i'd need some help doing the steel pipe part: don't know
how to even approach this type of problem.
Sam Wormley wrote:
Andrey wrote:
OK, the change in the amount of kinetic energy can be measured as heat
absorbed during melting, right? I think there is a drastic difference
between amount of energy required to melt half a gallon of water and
amount of energy required to tear apart couple of feet of steel pipe.
Besides, does water enclosed in a tight container freeze at a lower
temperature because so much more energy is required to break that
container as part of freezing process compared to free freezing?
Have you done a calculation?
A calculation is worth more than a thousand "I think there is...".
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