| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Dr. Jai Maharaj" |
| Date: |
03 Aug 2005 03:50:01 AM |
| Object: |
FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
Fuel Cell Motorbike to Hit U.S. Streets
By John Roach
National Geographic News
Tuesday, August 2, 2005
A sleek, almost silent, nonpolluting fuel cell-powered
motorcycle is set to begin gliding down U.S. streets by
the end of 2006.
The bike is dubbed the ENV (pronounced "envy"), short for
Emissions Neutral Vehicle. The London-based company
Intelligent Energy decided to develop the bike itself
after years of cool reception to its fuel cell technology
from manufacturers.
"We wanted to show how good the technology is right now
and basically build what we thought would be a technical
example, albeit an example that's wonderful and
stimulates interest," said Andy Eggleston, ENV project
director.
Since its unveiling earlier this year, the ENV has
generated enormous interest - proof that the public is
ready to embrace fuel cell technology, Eggleston said.
The motorcycle has a top speed of 50 miles an hour (80
kilometers an hour) and can run for 100 miles (160
kilometers) or up to four hours on a tank of compressed
hydrogen. A fill-up costs about four dollars (U.S.).
ENV makes no more noise than a home computer and emits
only heat and water
The ENV (or "envy") motorcycle is powered by a hydrogen
fuel cell that can run almost silently at a top speed of
50 miles an hour. Fuel-cell-powered vehicles, which emit
only heat and water vapor, are gaining public interest as
an environmentally-friendly travel option.
Photograph courtesy Intelligent Energy:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/images/050802_fuelcellmotorcycle.jpg
More at:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/0802_050802_fuelcellcycle.html
- - - - - - -
Posted on 8/03/2005 1:44:08 AM PDT by kingattax
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
End of forwarded message
Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
Hindu Holocaust Museum
http://www.mantra.com/holocaust
Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy
http://www.hindu.org
http://www.hindunet.org
The truth about Islam and Muslims
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate
The terrorist mission of Jesus stated in the Christian bible:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not so send
peace, but a sword.
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the
daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in
law.
"And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
- Matthew 10:34-36.
o Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educational
purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may not
have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the
poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for
fair use of copyrighted works.
o If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be read,
considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name, current
e-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number.
o Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by others are
not necessarily those of the poster who may or may not have read the article.
FAIR USE NOTICE: This article may contain copyrighted material the use of
which may or may not have been specifically authorized by the copyright
owner. This material is being made available in efforts to advance the
understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic,
democratic, scientific, social, and cultural, etc., issues. It is believed
that this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title
17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without
profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included
information for research, comment, discussion and educational purposes by
subscribing to USENET newsgroups or visiting web sites. For more information
go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
If you wish to use copyrighted material from this article for purposes of
your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the
copyright owner.
Since newsgroup posts are being removed
by forgery by one or more net terrorists,
this post may be reposted several times.
.
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| User: "Bob Eldred" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
03 Aug 2005 09:54:43 AM |
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"Dr. Jai Maharaj" <usenet@mantra.com> wrote in message
news:xOAxO3870IfLSA@NmuEu...
Fuel Cell Motorbike to Hit U.S. Streets
By John Roach
National Geographic News
Tuesday, August 2, 2005
A sleek, almost silent, nonpolluting fuel cell-powered
motorcycle is set to begin gliding down U.S. streets by
the end of 2006.
The bike is dubbed the ENV (pronounced "envy"), short for
Emissions Neutral Vehicle. The London-based company
Intelligent Energy decided to develop the bike itself
after years of cool reception to its fuel cell technology
from manufacturers.
snip......
This is great. We need to get history on these things to see if they really
are viable and cost effective. Many of us doubt it but there is no
substitute for real world experience. The cost to purchase, maintain and run
balanced against the resulting performance will be very closely watched to
see if this and other hydrogen vehicles are real contenders.
It must also be born in mind that the pollution claims are bogus because the
hydrogen comes from a fossil source with an attendant loss of energy and CO2
release, I might add. Interestingly the name ENV is close to the name of the
I'll fated electric car, the EV-1. Is that an omen?
Bob
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| User: "Ed Cregger" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
03 Aug 2005 03:58:20 AM |
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"Dr. Jai Maharaj" <usenet@mantra.com> wrote in message
news:xOAxO3870IfLSA@NmuEu...
Fuel Cell Motorbike to Hit U.S. Streets
By John Roach
National Geographic News
Tuesday, August 2, 2005
A sleek, almost silent, nonpolluting fuel cell-powered
motorcycle is set to begin gliding down U.S. streets by
the end of 2006.
The bike is dubbed the ENV (pronounced "envy"), short for
Emissions Neutral Vehicle. The London-based company
Intelligent Energy decided to develop the bike itself
after years of cool reception to its fuel cell technology
from manufacturers.
"We wanted to show how good the technology is right now
and basically build what we thought would be a technical
example, albeit an example that's wonderful and
stimulates interest," said Andy Eggleston, ENV project
director.
Since its unveiling earlier this year, the ENV has
generated enormous interest - proof that the public is
ready to embrace fuel cell technology, Eggleston said.
The motorcycle has a top speed of 50 miles an hour (80
kilometers an hour) and can run for 100 miles (160
kilometers) or up to four hours on a tank of compressed
hydrogen. A fill-up costs about four dollars (U.S.).
ENV makes no more noise than a home computer and emits
only heat and water
The ENV (or "envy") motorcycle is powered by a hydrogen
fuel cell that can run almost silently at a top speed of
50 miles an hour. Fuel-cell-powered vehicles, which emit
only heat and water vapor, are gaining public interest as
an environmentally-friendly travel option.
Photograph courtesy Intelligent Energy:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/images/050802_fuelcellmotorcycle.jpg
More at:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/0802_050802_fuelcellcycle.html
- - - - - - -
Posted on 8/03/2005 1:44:08 AM PDT by kingattax
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
End of forwarded message
Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
Hindu Holocaust Museum
http://www.mantra.com/holocaust
Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy
http://www.hindu.org
http://www.hindunet.org
The truth about Islam and Muslims
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate
The terrorist mission of Jesus stated in the Christian bible:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not so send
peace, but a sword.
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the
daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in
law.
"And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
- Matthew 10:34-36.
o Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the
educational
purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may
not
have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the
poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for
fair use of copyrighted works.
o If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be read,
considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name,
current
e-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number.
o Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by others
are
not necessarily those of the poster who may or may not have read the
article.
FAIR USE NOTICE: This article may contain copyrighted material the use of
which may or may not have been specifically authorized by the copyright
owner. This material is being made available in efforts to advance the
understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic,
democratic, scientific, social, and cultural, etc., issues. It is believed
that this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with
Title
17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without
profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the
included
information for research, comment, discussion and educational purposes by
subscribing to USENET newsgroups or visiting web sites. For more
information
go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
If you wish to use copyrighted material from this article for purposes of
your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the
copyright owner.
Since newsgroup posts are being removed
by forgery by one or more net terrorists,
this post may be reposted several times.
I would like to see it haul me up the hill at the entrance of my housing
development. Ain't gonna happen.
Ed Cregger
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| User: "Rob Kleinschmidt" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
03 Aug 2005 03:35:15 PM |
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Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
The motorcycle has a top speed of 50 miles an hour (80
kilometers an hour) and can run for 100 miles (160
kilometers) or up to four hours on a tank of compressed
hydrogen. A fill-up costs about four dollars (U.S.).
ENV makes no more noise than a home computer and emits
only heat and water
The cleanliness of the vehicle depends on how you obtain the
hydrogen. Kind of like talking about electricity being clean.
It all depends on where it came from.
I'm also a little skeptical about hydrogen storage and
refueling issues. Maybe these are solved problems, maybe not.
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| User: "Nem" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
03 Aug 2005 05:20:22 PM |
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The technology is available for both storage and refueling. I april I
went to the US's first commercial refueling station, Shell in
Washington DC. I saw it happen on the street while FC and IC cars and
vans came to refuel. Cost is an issue. I think the greatest problem is
how to get the H2 like you say.
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| User: "Rob Kleinschmidt" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
03 Aug 2005 06:13:52 PM |
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Nem wrote:
The technology is available for both storage and refueling. I april I
went to the US's first commercial refueling station, Shell in
Washington DC. I saw it happen on the street while FC and IC cars and
vans came to refuel. Cost is an issue. I think the greatest problem is
how to get the H2 like you say.
I understood permeability and energy density could both
be a bit of a problem when storing hydrogen.
In other words, it supposedly leaks through materials more
readily than most gasses and it's difficult to store enough
to get useful driving distances between refills.
To me, CNG looks more promising for the immediate future.
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| User: "Nem" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
03 Aug 2005 07:58:26 PM |
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At the shell station they stored LH2 in a huge tank that was semi
submerged underground. It was gasified and stored in smaller 3,000 and
6,000 psi tanks for dispensing. There was leakage from the LH2 tank I
think about 1% a day (don't quote me on that I may have just lied to
you). The engineers were complaining about that because they wanted to
have it completely underground with a vent on top would have preveted
evaporation even more. They said that the leakage from the high
pressure gas tanks was negligable. I hope they publish some of this
info because its very interesting.
Yes hydrogen leak easier because it is the smallest molecule. I believe
that with LH2 BMW has attained comparable driving distance and they
will be commercializing dual LH2/gasoline 700 series cars soon. Also I
think that 3,000 psi tanks can store enough H2 for about 300-400 km
range.Which again is comparable.
I think for the near future H2 ICE is the way to go.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
03 Aug 2005 11:00:03 PM |
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Nem wrote:
At the shell station they stored LH2 in a huge tank that was semi
submerged underground. It was gasified and stored in smaller 3,000 and
6,000 psi tanks for dispensing. There was leakage from the LH2 tank I
think about 1% a day (don't quote me on that I may have just lied to
you).
So what I'm wondering about is what happens when you go on a trip
for a month or two and leave your hydrogen fueled vehicle parked
in your garage. A 1% or even .1% leakage rate would be very bad news.
I think for the near future H2 ICE is the way to go.
Long term maybe. Short term, I'd see CNG as a drop in replacement
with a much better infrastructure in place. Suitable for both
an ICE and (I think) fuel cells. A pretty good H to C ratio too.
.
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| User: "Ed Cregger" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
04 Aug 2005 12:13:04 AM |
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<Rkleinsch1216128@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123128003.223236.262730@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Nem wrote:
At the shell station they stored LH2 in a huge tank that was semi
submerged underground. It was gasified and stored in smaller 3,000 and
6,000 psi tanks for dispensing. There was leakage from the LH2 tank I
think about 1% a day (don't quote me on that I may have just lied to
you).
So what I'm wondering about is what happens when you go on a trip
for a month or two and leave your hydrogen fueled vehicle parked
in your garage. A 1% or even .1% leakage rate would be very bad news.
I think for the near future H2 ICE is the way to go.
Long term maybe. Short term, I'd see CNG as a drop in replacement
with a much better infrastructure in place. Suitable for both
an ICE and (I think) fuel cells. A pretty good H to C ratio too.
An excellent point, but the enviro wackos would attack it based upon its
emissions.
Ed Cregger
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| User: "Rob Kleinschmidt" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
04 Aug 2005 01:26:43 PM |
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Ed Cregger wrote:
Long term maybe. Short term, I'd see CNG as a drop in replacement
with a much better infrastructure in place. Suitable for both
an ICE and (I think) fuel cells. A pretty good H to C ratio too.
An excellent point, but the enviro wackos would attack it based upon its
emissions.
I already cleared it with my fellow envirowhackos and my state
chapter of the evil envirowhacko conspiracy and they're fine with
it. What a crock of sh*t Ed.
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| User: "Ed Cregger" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
04 Aug 2005 03:45:06 PM |
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"Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsch1216128@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123180003.323245.79660@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ed Cregger wrote:
Long term maybe. Short term, I'd see CNG as a drop in replacement
with a much better infrastructure in place. Suitable for both
an ICE and (I think) fuel cells. A pretty good H to C ratio too.
An excellent point, but the enviro wackos would attack it based upon its
emissions.
I already cleared it with my fellow envirowhackos and my state
chapter of the evil envirowhacko conspiracy and they're fine with
it. What a crock of sh*t Ed.
WTF are you talking about?
Ed Cregger
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| User: "Rob Kleinschmidt" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
04 Aug 2005 04:33:13 PM |
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Ed Cregger wrote:
"Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsch1216128@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123180003.323245.79660@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ed Cregger wrote:
Long term maybe. Short term, I'd see CNG as a drop in replacement
with a much better infrastructure in place. Suitable for both
an ICE and (I think) fuel cells. A pretty good H to C ratio too.
An excellent point, but the enviro wackos would attack it based upon its
emissions.
I already cleared it with my fellow envirowhackos and my state
chapter of the evil envirowhacko conspiracy and they're fine with
it. What a crock of sh*t Ed.
WTF are you talking about?
Your gratuitious "enviro whacko" crap.
.
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| User: "Eric Gisin" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
04 Aug 2005 10:14:31 PM |
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"Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsch1216128@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123191193.849813.10200@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ed Cregger wrote:
"Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsch1216128@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123180003.323245.79660@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ed Cregger wrote:
Long term maybe. Short term, I'd see CNG as a drop in replacement
with a much better infrastructure in place. Suitable for both
an ICE and (I think) fuel cells. A pretty good H to C ratio too.
An excellent point, but the enviro wackos would attack it based upon its
emissions.
I already cleared it with my fellow envirowhackos and my state
chapter of the evil envirowhacko conspiracy and they're fine with
it. What a crock of sh*t Ed.
WTF are you talking about?
Your gratuitious "enviro whacko" crap.
Any "enviro wacko/crackpot" statements are right on.
Only environmentals and republicans fall for the Great Hydrogen Fraud.
Hydrogen is not clean.
It is produced from coal or natural gas, also releasing CO2.
In fact, running an ICE on CNG is better than hydrogen from NG.
The other alternatives are either dirtier or way too expensive.
Of course all of us in the sci.* newsgroups already knew that.
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| User: "Marshall Dudley" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
05 Aug 2005 10:06:42 AM |
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Eric Gisin wrote:
"Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsch1216128@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123191193.849813.10200@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ed Cregger wrote:
"Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsch1216128@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123180003.323245.79660@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ed Cregger wrote:
Long term maybe. Short term, I'd see CNG as a drop in replacement
with a much better infrastructure in place. Suitable for both
an ICE and (I think) fuel cells. A pretty good H to C ratio too.
An excellent point, but the enviro wackos would attack it based upon its
emissions.
I already cleared it with my fellow envirowhackos and my state
chapter of the evil envirowhacko conspiracy and they're fine with
it. What a crock of sh*t Ed.
WTF are you talking about?
Your gratuitious "enviro whacko" crap.
Any "enviro wacko/crackpot" statements are right on.
Only environmentals and republicans fall for the Great Hydrogen Fraud.
Hydrogen is not clean.
Hydrogen IS clean, it only produces water as a product of combustion.
It is produced from coal or natural gas, also releasing CO2.
In fact, running an ICE on CNG is better than hydrogen from NG.
Now you are not talking about if hydrogen is clean, but if the production of
hydrogen is clean. That is something different entirely. If one produces hydrogen
from electrolysis of water than the hydrogen will be as cleanly produced as the
electricity was. If you burn coal or other hydrocarbon fuels, then it is dirty,
but if you get the electricity from hydro, nuclear, wind, or solar, then it is
cleanly produced as well. If hydrogen or deutrium fusion ever make it to where it
produces controllable sufficient energy, then hydrogen might be able to be produced
economically and cleanly as well.
Marshall
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| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
05 Aug 2005 10:49:47 AM |
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In article <42F38082.C2A8F174@king-cart.com>,
Marshall Dudley <mdudley@king-cart.com> wrote:
Eric Gisin wrote:
"Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsch1216128@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123191193.849813.10200@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ed Cregger wrote:
"Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsch1216128@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123180003.323245.79660@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ed Cregger wrote:
Long term maybe. Short term, I'd see CNG as a drop in replacement
with a much better infrastructure in place. Suitable for both
an ICE and (I think) fuel cells. A pretty good H to C ratio too.
An excellent point, but the enviro wackos would attack it based
upon its
emissions.
I already cleared it with my fellow envirowhackos and my state
chapter of the evil envirowhacko conspiracy and they're fine with
it. What a crock of sh*t Ed.
WTF are you talking about?
Your gratuitious "enviro whacko" crap.
Any "enviro wacko/crackpot" statements are right on.
Only environmentals and republicans fall for the Great Hydrogen Fraud.
Hydrogen is not clean.
Hydrogen IS clean, it only produces water as a product of combustion.
It is produced from coal or natural gas, also releasing CO2.
In fact, running an ICE on CNG is better than hydrogen from NG.
Now you are not talking about if hydrogen is clean, but if the production of
hydrogen is clean. That is something different entirely. If one
produces hydrogen
from electrolysis of water than the hydrogen will be as cleanly produced as the
electricity was. If you burn coal or other hydrocarbon fuels, then it is dirty,
Economical mass-production of hydrogen is not straying from the topic of
the cleanliness of hydrogen. And electrolysis of water is only as clean
as the energy source that powers the electrolysis.
but if you get the electricity from hydro, nuclear, wind, or solar, then it is
cleanly produced as well. If hydrogen or deutrium fusion ever make it
You'll get the electricity from the grid, same as everyone else. That
means there'll be a little bit of hydro (and there are environmental
issues with hydro), a little bit from nuclear (one of the
enviromentalists' favorite subjects), a little from wind, a teensy tiny
amount from solar, and a whole buttload from fossil fuels.
And I think it's rather doubtful that burning fossil fuels to electrolyze
water is more efficient than rendering the fossil fuels directly.
If the power source comes from somewhere other than the grid, that would
really only be because it's cheaper. Then you'd have to decide whether
you can compete price-wise with conventional methods of hydrogen
production, or if it would be more profitable to just sell your
electricity to the grid.
to where it
produces controllable sufficient energy, then hydrogen might be able to
be produced
economically and cleanly as well.
There's a lot of ideas that work fine on small scales. For instance,
diesel engines that can burn vegetable oil. Sources of oil that would
otherwise have been discarded can be found. But what would happen if the
US transportation industry, burning 320 million gallons of gasoline per
day, converted to vegetable oil? Scaling up makes a lot of promising
technologies seem not so promising any more.
--
"A nice adaptation of conditions will make almost any hypothesis agree
with the phenomena. This will please the imagination but does not advance
our knowledge." -- J. Black, 1803.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
05 Aug 2005 03:39:40 PM |
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Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
You'll get the electricity from the grid, same as everyone else. That
means there'll be a little bit of hydro (and there are environmental
issues with hydro), a little bit from nuclear (one of the
enviromentalists' favorite subjects), a little from wind, a teensy tiny
amount from solar, and a whole buttload from fossil fuels.
Only problem with this is that it's difficult to buy a car that
runs on a mix of hydro, nuclear, coal, wind, bunker fuel, etc.
And I think it's rather doubtful that burning fossil fuels to electrolyze
water is more efficient than rendering the fossil fuels directly.
True for NG. Not really for the others. The question may be whether
hydrogen makes a good energy storage device. I don't know the
answer to this one.
.
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| User: "Dan Bloomquist" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
05 Aug 2005 04:18:12 PM |
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wrote:
Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
You'll get the electricity from the grid, same as everyone else. That
means there'll be a little bit of hydro (and there are environmental
issues with hydro), a little bit from nuclear (one of the
enviromentalists' favorite subjects), a little from wind, a teensy tiny
amount from solar, and a whole buttload from fossil fuels.
Only problem with this is that it's difficult to buy a car that
runs on a mix of hydro, nuclear, coal, wind, bunker fuel, etc.
Not at all. And electric vehicles are three times as efficient as the
hydrogen counterpart using the electrolysis vector.
Big plus is we have the infrastructure in place and the excess capacity
at night.
Best, Dan.
--
Add one for email
.
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| User: "Rob Kleinschmidt" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
05 Aug 2005 04:56:41 PM |
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Dan Bloomquist wrote:
Rkleinsch1216128@aol.com wrote:
Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
You'll get the electricity from the grid, same as everyone else. That
means there'll be a little bit of hydro (and there are environmental
issues with hydro), a little bit from nuclear (one of the
enviromentalists' favorite subjects), a little from wind, a teensy tiny
amount from solar, and a whole buttload from fossil fuels.
Only problem with this is that it's difficult to buy a car that
runs on a mix of hydro, nuclear, coal, wind, bunker fuel, etc.
Not at all. And electric vehicles are three times as efficient as the
hydrogen counterpart using the electrolysis vector.
Care to throw out some numbers ? My very fuzzy recollection of
stationary was ~70% pushed through a battery and inverter.
Big plus is we have the infrastructure in place and the excess capacity
at night.
Big minus is that we don't have the storage technology we'd hoped for
a decade or two back.
Problems (best of my knowledge) still include poor power/weight,
long recharge times and in the case of flywheels, too high
self-discharge
rates. I don't see all-electric as very practical at this time. If
you think this has changed, I'm interested.
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| User: "Dan Bloomquist" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
05 Aug 2005 07:50:46 PM |
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Rob Kleinschmidt wrote:
Dan Bloomquist wrote:
Rkleinsch1216128@aol.com wrote:
Only problem with this is that it's difficult to buy a car that
runs on a mix of hydro, nuclear, coal, wind, bunker fuel, etc.
Not at all. And electric vehicles are three times as efficient as the
hydrogen counterpart using the electrolysis vector.
Care to throw out some numbers ? My very fuzzy recollection of
stationary was ~70% pushed through a battery and inverter.
Production EVs have done 50% grid to wheels. Theoretically it would not
be too difficult to attain 70%. So
Now with electrolyses.
electricity to hydrogen 85%
hydrogen handling, compression or liquefaction 90%
hydrogen to wheels 30% with PEM.
The net is 23%, less in practice. Those PEM fuel cells are still very
pricey.
Big plus is we have the infrastructure in place and the excess capacity
at night.
Big minus is that we don't have the storage technology we'd hoped for
a decade or two back.
The EV-1 with NiMH had a 140 mile range. We have a LiIon technology now.
Problems (best of my knowledge) still include poor power/weight,
long recharge times and in the case of flywheels, too high
self-discharge
rates. I don't see all-electric as very practical at this time. If
you think this has changed, I'm interested.
No, I don't think they are a panacea. But applied to metropolitan
commutes, they could have a meaningful impact. Nobody on a rush hour
freeway in L.A. needs a race car. They would charge over night while
there is spare capacity on the grid.
There is a gentleman on sci.energy.hydrogen that had an EV-1 pickup. He
loved the thing.
Best, Dan.
--
Add one for email
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| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
05 Aug 2005 09:42:22 PM |
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In article <GPTIe.3754$j21.2859@news01.roc.ny>,
Dan Bloomquist <public21@lakeweb.com> wrote:
hydrogen to wheels 30% with PEM.
Are you serious? I thought it was much better than that!
--
"Coincidences, in general, are great stumbling blocks in the way of that
class of thinkers who have been educated to know nothing of the theory of
probabilities." -- Edgar Allen Poe
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| User: "Dan Bloomquist" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
05 Aug 2005 10:44:49 PM |
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Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
In article <GPTIe.3754$j21.2859@news01.roc.ny>,
Dan Bloomquist <public21@lakeweb.com> wrote:
hydrogen to wheels 30% with PEM.
Are you serious? I thought it was much better than that!
A DOD study went by here, (sci.energy), a while back. I'll see if I can
find it in the morning. That's pretty much it.
PEM is a low temperature, proton, fuel cell that doesn't lend well to
better efficiency. On the other hand a high temperature oxygen ion fuel
cell like SOFC can do better than 50% with some claims as high as 60%.
With an oxygen ion fuel cell you also get a bang from 2CO + O2 so
methane can be directly used at a very good efficiency.
It may not be practical in a vehicle app, but you also get a very high
grade heat that can push the efficiency up to 80%+ with a bottom cycle.
Back in 2000, SOFC cogeneration units for home heating and electrical
production were suppose to be right around the corner. I'm still
waiting, (I heat with propane).
Siemens has seemed to put off building a SOFC plant. They expected cost
to run some $400/kw. If the home unit could be had at $1000/kw a home
owner may receive a reasonable return on investment, (say ten years to
break even). Every unit sold would extend our natural gas resources by
about two. Maybe better when compared to gas turbines at 30%.
Best, Dan.
--
Add one for email
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| User: "Dan Bloomquist" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
07 Aug 2005 05:58:46 PM |
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Dan Bloomquist wrote:
Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
In article <GPTIe.3754$j21.2859@news01.roc.ny>,
Dan Bloomquist <public21@lakeweb.com> wrote:
hydrogen to wheels 30% with PEM.
Are you serious? I thought it was much better than that!
A DOD study went by here, (sci.energy), a while back. I'll see if I can
find it in the morning. That's pretty much it.
Second hand:
'The most extensive data come from the US Department of Defense, which
conducted field trials of 30 PAFCs and 76 PEMFCs installed at defense
sites. Average electrical efficiencies were 31.6 percent for the PAFC
and 23.4 percent for the PEMFC.'
http://www.atse.org.au/?sectionid=677
Looking for it, I got a feel for, 'say it often enough and it becomes
truth...'
There is a continues stream of postings that claim fuel cells are two to
three times more efficient than the ICE. This may be true for large
cogenerating stationary facilities. But the claim usually follows with
the application of PEM in a vehicle.
Best, Dan.
--
Add one for email
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| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
07 Aug 2005 10:34:35 PM |
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In article <GmwJe.3908$j21.1835@news01.roc.ny>,
Dan Bloomquist <public21@lakeweb.com> wrote:
Dan Bloomquist wrote:
Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
In article <GPTIe.3754$j21.2859@news01.roc.ny>,
Dan Bloomquist <public21@lakeweb.com> wrote:
hydrogen to wheels 30% with PEM.
Are you serious? I thought it was much better than that!
A DOD study went by here, (sci.energy), a while back. I'll see if I can
find it in the morning. That's pretty much it.
Second hand:
'The most extensive data come from the US Department of Defense, which
conducted field trials of 30 PAFCs and 76 PEMFCs installed at defense
sites. Average electrical efficiencies were 31.6 percent for the PAFC
and 23.4 percent for the PEMFC.'
http://www.atse.org.au/?sectionid=677
Looking for it, I got a feel for, 'say it often enough and it becomes
truth...'
There is a continues stream of postings that claim fuel cells are two to
three times more efficient than the ICE. This may be true for large
cogenerating stationary facilities. But the claim usually follows with
the application of PEM in a vehicle.
Yeah, I can't remember where I saw the highly efficient figures. I just
had the impression that they did better than the Carnot cycle. 31.6
percent isn't actually that great.
--
"Let us learn to dream, gentlemen, then perhaps we shall find the
truth... But let us beware of publishing our dreams before they have been
put to the proof by the waking understanding." -- Friedrich August Kekulé
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| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
05 Aug 2005 09:39:29 PM |
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In article <oIQIe.3385$cg.2029@news02.roc.ny>,
Dan Bloomquist <public21@lakeweb.com> wrote:
Rkleinsch1216128@aol.com wrote:
Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
You'll get the electricity from the grid, same as everyone else. That
means there'll be a little bit of hydro (and there are environmental
issues with hydro), a little bit from nuclear (one of the
enviromentalists' favorite subjects), a little from wind, a teensy tiny
amount from solar, and a whole buttload from fossil fuels.
Only problem with this is that it's difficult to buy a car that
runs on a mix of hydro, nuclear, coal, wind, bunker fuel, etc.
Not at all. And electric vehicles are three times as efficient as the
hydrogen counterpart using the electrolysis vector.
Big plus is we have the infrastructure in place and the excess capacity
at night.
The problems with electric vehicles are pretty well known-- short range,
long recharge time, expensive, limited battery life. Efficiency isn't
the only consideration. Hydrogen overcomes those points at the cost of
a high-pressure container of flammable gas. But other than that,
"burning" hydrogen in a fuel cell is (or can be) much more efficient than
burning gasoline in an internal combustion engine. So I still have some
hope that the well-to-wheel efficiency could be better. But not, I think,
if electrolysis is part of the process.
--
"It is the weak who are cruel. Gentleness can only be expected from the
strong." -- Leo Roskin
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| User: "Dan Bloomquist" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
05 Aug 2005 11:47:42 AM |
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Marshall Dudley wrote:
Now you are not talking about if hydrogen is clean, but if the production of
hydrogen is clean. That is something different entirely.
Not really. In the real world, the whole process counts.
If one produces hydrogen
from electrolysis of water than the hydrogen will be as cleanly produced as the
electricity was. If you burn coal or other hydrocarbon fuels, then it is dirty,
but if you get the electricity from hydro, nuclear, wind, or solar, then it is
cleanly produced as well.
First. it is dumb to turn perfectly good electricity into hydrogen.
Thermo chemical processes are twice as efficient in today's world.
Second. The assumption of using 'clean' electricity is misleading. If
you don't displace coal with that green electricity, it is the same as
using coal. Here is the real mix of that hydrogen in the U.S.:
http://eed.llnl.gov/flow/02flow.php
Mostly coal at 30% efficiency. Now, take that windmill and displace the
coal and methane. Use that coal and methane as a transportation fuel.
You now produce 3 times less CO2 and at a fraction of the cost where
electrolysis is concerned.
If hydrogen or deutrium fusion ever make it to where it
produces controllable sufficient energy, then hydrogen might be able to be produced
economically and cleanly as well.
If? Look at the above link. That is the world we live in. Arnold is
pushing hydrogen as green, today. It is a green fallacy and a terrible
waste of our resources. It is a distraction.
We have a potentially serious challenge looming where transportation
fuel is concerned. It is disingenuous of leaders to pretend hydrogen is
a solution.
Marshall
Best, Dan.
--
Add one for email
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| User: "Rob Kleinschmidt" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
04 Aug 2005 10:53:35 PM |
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Eric Gisin wrote:
"Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsch1216128@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123191193.849813.10200@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ed Cregger wrote:
"Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsch1216128@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123180003.323245.79660@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ed Cregger wrote:
Long term maybe. Short term, I'd see CNG as a drop in replacement
with a much better infrastructure in place. Suitable for both
an ICE and (I think) fuel cells. A pretty good H to C ratio too.
An excellent point, but the enviro wackos would attack it based upon its
emissions.
I already cleared it with my fellow envirowhackos and my state
chapter of the evil envirowhacko conspiracy and they're fine with
it. What a crock of sh*t Ed.
WTF are you talking about?
Your gratuitious "enviro whacko" crap.
Any "enviro wacko/crackpot" statements are right on.
Only environmentals and republicans fall for the Great Hydrogen Fraud.
Hydrogen is not clean.
It is produced from coal or natural gas, also releasing CO2.
In fact, running an ICE on CNG is better than hydrogen from NG.
The other alternatives are either dirtier or way too expensive.
Of course all of us in the sci.* newsgroups already knew that.
I used to follow sci.energy when we were running off our own
power, but haven't bothered lately because it's mostly the
same old stuff over and over. Also got pretty sick of the same
stupid rants about "enviro whacko" demons repeated endlessly by
the same old morons.
Anyway, as I said before, I think CNG is a better short term solution
at least until somebody comes up with either cheap solar, carbon
sequestering or an acceptable way to store spent nuclear fuel,
(preferrably in the backyard of the utility customers).
(You'll note I suggested CNG several posts back).
..
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| User: "Ed Cregger" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
05 Aug 2005 12:06:39 AM |
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"Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsch1216128@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123214015.488560.107840@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Eric Gisin wrote:
"Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsch1216128@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123191193.849813.10200@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ed Cregger wrote:
"Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsch1216128@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123180003.323245.79660@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ed Cregger wrote:
Long term maybe. Short term, I'd see CNG as a drop in
replacement
with a much better infrastructure in place. Suitable for both
an ICE and (I think) fuel cells. A pretty good H to C ratio too.
An excellent point, but the enviro wackos would attack it based
upon its
emissions.
I already cleared it with my fellow envirowhackos and my state
chapter of the evil envirowhacko conspiracy and they're fine with
it. What a crock of sh*t Ed.
WTF are you talking about?
Your gratuitious "enviro whacko" crap.
Any "enviro wacko/crackpot" statements are right on.
Only environmentals and republicans fall for the Great Hydrogen Fraud.
Hydrogen is not clean.
It is produced from coal or natural gas, also releasing CO2.
In fact, running an ICE on CNG is better than hydrogen from NG.
The other alternatives are either dirtier or way too expensive.
Of course all of us in the sci.* newsgroups already knew that.
I used to follow sci.energy when we were running off our own
power, but haven't bothered lately because it's mostly the
same old stuff over and over. Also got pretty sick of the same
stupid rants about "enviro whacko" demons repeated endlessly by
the same old morons.
Anyway, as I said before, I think CNG is a better short term solution
at least until somebody comes up with either cheap solar, carbon
sequestering or an acceptable way to store spent nuclear fuel,
(preferrably in the backyard of the utility customers).
(You'll note I suggested CNG several posts back).
Believe it or not, I feel the same way, but about BOTH sides - the extreme
positions, of the issue.
I am not against taking care of the environment. I am not against making a
buck. I do it myself. But, I am against the extremists paralyzing the
political process to the point that nothing is ever accomplished, except the
negative.
I am not your enemy. The extremists are. Divide and conquor - just the way
the powers-that-be keep us, "We The People", from accomplishing a damned
thing.
Ed Cregger
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| User: "Dan Bloomquist" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
05 Aug 2005 01:42:52 AM |
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Ed Cregger wrote:
Believe it or not, I feel the same way, but about BOTH sides - the extreme
positions, of the issue.
There are no 'issues'. You only have to add up the numbers....
Ed Cregger
Best, Dan.
--
Add one for email
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
05 Aug 2005 03:10:01 PM |
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Ed Cregger wrote:
I am not your enemy. The extremists are. Divide and conquor - just the way
the powers-that-be keep us, "We The People", from accomplishing a damned
thing.
I apologize for biting your head off.
I see labeling/demonizing as a major problem that gets in the way
of serious analysis of energy issues.
Personally, I see nothing magic about centrism. The position can be
as extreme as you like, just leave the stoopid rhetoric home and talk
about the nuts and bolts. (Nuts are certainly one thing we're not
short of).
Rob Kleinschmidt
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| User: "Ed Cregger" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
05 Aug 2005 10:57:59 PM |
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<Rkleinsch1216128@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123272601.642219.32110@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ed Cregger wrote:
I am not your enemy. The extremists are. Divide and conquor - just the
way
the powers-that-be keep us, "We The People", from accomplishing a damned
thing.
I apologize for biting your head off.
I see labeling/demonizing as a major problem that gets in the way
of serious analysis of energy issues.
Personally, I see nothing magic about centrism. The position can be
as extreme as you like, just leave the stoopid rhetoric home and talk
about the nuts and bolts. (Nuts are certainly one thing we're not
short of).
Rob Kleinschmidt
Not a problem. BTDT myself.
Ed Cregger
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| User: "Dan Bloomquist" |
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| Title: Re: FUEL CELL MOTORBIKE TO HIT U.S. STREETS |
05 Aug 2005 01:40:33 AM |
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Rob Kleinschmidt wrote:
Anyway, as I said before, I think CNG is a better short term solution...
Then, you will have to show infrastructure and source, compared to NG
peaking in North America. In Europe, where the NG source is Russia, it
may be different.
Best, Dan.
--
Add one for email
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