| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
09 Oct 2005 02:09:33 PM |
| Object: |
Getting students interested in physics |
To get students interested in science, an easy explanation of MP3,
digital, and related technology should do the trick. The magazine
Audiophile Voice, which is run by the fomer editor of Audio Magazine,
has an article that explains these things, complete with a free
downloadable example. It is titled "Realistic MP3," and it appears in
Volume 11,Issue 1. The explanations are very easy to read. Back issues
such as that one can be obtained at
http://www.audiophilevoice.com . Schools could possibly buy reprints of
just that one article, in bulk, at deep discounts, on special request.
(Such copies were handed out in a course at Georgetown U., recently.)
An excerpt from the article can be read at this site, if you click on
this URL:
http://homepage.mac.com/shanefield/mp3/PhotoAlbum30.html
Next month, in Issue 2 of Volume 11, there will be a similar article
explaining "wi-fi" ("wireless"), along with wi-max, streaming,
Bluetooth, and related new tech.
.
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
13 Oct 2005 05:35:02 AM |
|
|
In article <dijpti$sj6$2@rainier.uits.indiana.edu>,
(Gregory L. Hansen) wrote:
In article <diik4n$8ss_001@s1009.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
<jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
In article <1129075674.817773.60170@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Henry Lemington-Wholeflavors" <cwocwocwo@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
Yeah. Students should be actively discouraged from doing physics in
college, not the other way around. There's way too many physics BSc's,
and too many physics PhDs being produced, for the tiny amount of decent
physics jobs out there. They'd all be far better off doing engineering
or computer science.
How many CS degrees programs out there require courses in physics?
This isn't a rhetorical question; I seem to be stumbling over one
at the moment.
/BAH
I don't know in general, but the University if Minnesota requires two
years of math,
This is the calc set of courses (I'm not able to get out to
look at the hitamal today).
..a semester of statistics, and a year of freshman physics
from their computer science students.
I hope it's not the dumbed down physics (only algebra eqns.).
I would think that linear algebra would be a must for
matrices (or am I out of date)?
http://www.catalogs.umn.edu/ug/it/it08.html
/BAH
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
12 Oct 2005 02:54:43 PM |
|
|
In article <1129075674.817773.60170@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Henry Lemington-Wholeflavors <cwocwocwo@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
In article <1128979209.773467.265010@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
<shanefield@ieee.org> wrote:
Mark Martin wrote:
Are magazine sales so poor that you need to convince people that you
hold the key to strengthening levels of innate curiosity? There's not
even any physics in the stuff you linked. A bare hint at information
theory perhaps, but no physics.
Magazine sales are not "poor" right now. And there's plenty of physics
in the field of audio reproduction. Plenty of math in perceptual
coding. And biophys. in the cochlea and ear-brain system involved in
tone perception. Once a kid gets interested in one application (like
this one), might get further interested in finding out how it works.
Certainly nothing wrong with trying this.
Why physics? If they got engineering degrees they might find a job.
http://bls.gov/oco/ocos052.htm
http://bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm
http://www.careerbuilder.com
physicist - 74 hits
engineer - 55,632 hits
Yeah. Students should be actively discouraged from doing physics in
college, not the other way around. There's way too many physics BSc's,
and too many physics PhDs being produced, for the tiny amount of decent
physics jobs out there. They'd all be far better off doing engineering
or computer science.
Computer science went bust after the 1990's. Engineering is growing
slower than average, but the increase in the number of enrollments is
expected to slow, too, so it's not a bad direction for now.
I do believe the physics grad can get a job, but his background must
reflect the things that employers need. E.g. if your research involved
something directly applicable to magnetic media, then the odds would
probably be pretty good that you could get a job at Imation, Sony, or
another company developing magnetic media.
Physics is probably also a great minor or second major for certain
engineering students. For the electrical engineer developing
semiconductor devices (you didn't think it was primarily physicists that
did that, right?), the extra effort spent with quantum mechanics,
statistical physics, and solid-state physics would deepen their
understanding and lend theoretical agility.
I've also been given, as another example, that engineers do anything they
can to avoid solving Maxwell's equations, so a strong background in
physics would put you ahead in something like antenna design,
electromagnetic warfare, or other hard-core fields and waves things.
But don't expect hiring managers in industry to be epecially impressed
with "broad understanding of physical principles" or anything fruity like
that. They're looking for specific skills and experience.
On the other hand, if you really want to, say, develop MEMS technology
when you graduate, consider mechanical engineering. If you want to work
with semiconductors, consider electrical engineering. Physics isn't the
only route to that stuff, and not necessarily the best.
--
"The main, if not the only, function of the word aether has been to
furnish a nominative case to the verb 'to undulate'."
-- the Earl of Salisbury, 1894
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Thomas Johnson" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
10 Oct 2005 07:06:09 PM |
|
|
wrote:
To get students interested in science, an easy explanation of MP3,
digital, and related technology should do the trick. The magazine
Audiophile Voice, which is run by the fomer editor of Audio Magazine,
has an article that explains these things, complete with a free
downloadable example. It is titled "Realistic MP3," and it appears in
Volume 11,Issue 1. The explanations are very easy to read. Back issues
such as that one can be obtained at
http://www.audiophilevoice.com . Schools could possibly buy reprints of
just that one article, in bulk, at deep discounts, on special request.
(Such copies were handed out in a course at Georgetown U., recently.)
An excerpt from the article can be read at this site, if you click on
this URL:
http://homepage.mac.com/shanefield/mp3/PhotoAlbum30.html
Next month, in Issue 2 of Volume 11, there will be a similar article
explaining "wi-fi" ("wireless"), along with wi-max, streaming,
Bluetooth, and related new tech.
Well, I guess by now you have learned that if you want to get students
interested in physics, don't point them to sci.physics...
Thomas.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
11 Oct 2005 02:31:36 AM |
|
|
"Thomas Johnson" <thomas_johnson00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1128989169.863670.155360@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
|
| wrote:
| > To get students interested in science, an easy explanation of MP3,
| > digital, and related technology should do the trick. The magazine
| > Audiophile Voice, which is run by the fomer editor of Audio
Magazine,
| > has an article that explains these things, complete with a free
| > downloadable example. It is titled "Realistic MP3," and it appears
in
| > Volume 11,Issue 1. The explanations are very easy to read. Back
issues
| > such as that one can be obtained at
| > http://www.audiophilevoice.com . Schools could possibly buy reprints
of
| > just that one article, in bulk, at deep discounts, on special
request.
| > (Such copies were handed out in a course at Georgetown U.,
recently.)
| >
| > An excerpt from the article can be read at this site, if you click
on
| > this URL:
| > http://homepage.mac.com/shanefield/mp3/PhotoAlbum30.html
| >
| > Next month, in Issue 2 of Volume 11, there will be a similar article
| > explaining "wi-fi" ("wireless"), along with wi-max, streaming,
| > Bluetooth, and related new tech.
|
| Well, I guess by now you have learned that if you want to get students
| interested in physics, don't point them to sci.physics...
|
| Thomas.
Quite correct, sci.physics and it's daughter sci.physics.relativity is a
sand
box for mentally disturbed patients masquerading as doctors to play in.
Dr. Baez, for example.
"Koobee Wublee" <kublai@cox.net> wrote in message
news:4cH2f.1725$i%.1382@fed1read07...
|
| "John Baez" <baez@galaxy.ucr.edu> wrote in message
| news:dhrr0r$3v5$1@glue.ucr.edu...
| > In article <Ac50f.44896$VI6.6205@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
| > Androcles <Androcles@ MyPlace.org> wrote:
| >
| >>In
| >>
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/TwinParadox/doppler.gif
| >>Baez has constructed 16 arrows in the left diagram and 32 in the
right
| >>diagram.
| >
| > This sentence is false. If you could read, you'd know why:
| >
| >
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/TwinParadox/twin_gr.html
|
| Dr. Baez,
|
Dear Kooblee Wublee,
Dr. Baez has lent his name to this document,
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/TwinParadox/twin_vase.html
(Original by Michael Weiss) as you can clearly see from the URL.
My complaint is that there are 16 red arrows in the left diagram and 32
red arrows in the right diagram (see Fig 2).
You can see Dr. Baez's reply above. The sentence probably is
false, Dr. Baez would be unable to draw such a diagram but is
quite capable of plagiarizing from Michael Weiss, hoping no one
would notice.
The URL Dr. Baez has provided is also "Original by Michael Weiss".
Dr. Baez was born with five toes on his left foot and ten toes on his
right foot, and Dr. Einstein taught him to how to count. This
enables Dr. Baez to say 5 =10 and 16 = 32.
Dr. Androcles.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Ken S. Tucker" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
10 Oct 2005 12:18:58 PM |
|
|
Well Good Luck...really.
A desire to learn about nature is based on curiosity,
that what needs to be stimulated. Electronics is one
way, but the breadth of stimulation is much greater.
Plumbing, Cars, weather. My daughter was grabbed
by geology, and went on to become a geo-engineer.
Her first interest was sparked by effects of volcanoes
in History, and then earthquakes...
My interest in electronics began by looking in the
back of a 1950's TV. Following a few dozen blown fuses
and a few 100 shocks I learned what not to do! But on
top of that I was curious about rocket guidance,
because I was interested in space travel which was
due to Sputnik on TV.
I doubt there's an easy "trick" to curiousity, just
an ecletic exposure, something not found in a govern-
ment institution that is designed to make more mindless
and obedient government workers. School destroys
curiousity to replace it with an agenda designed
for the very average.
Regards
Ken S. Tucker
shanefield@ieee.org wrote:
To get students interested in science, an easy explanation of MP3,
digital, and related technology should do the trick. The magazine
Audiophile Voice, which is run by the fomer editor of Audio Magazine,
has an article that explains these things, complete with a free
downloadable example. It is titled "Realistic MP3," and it appears in
Volume 11,Issue 1. The explanations are very easy to read. Back issues
such as that one can be obtained at
http://www.audiophilevoice.com . Schools could possibly buy reprints of
just that one article, in bulk, at deep discounts, on special request.
(Such copies were handed out in a course at Georgetown U., recently.)
An excerpt from the article can be read at this site, if you click on
this URL:
http://homepage.mac.com/shanefield/mp3/PhotoAlbum30.html
Next month, in Issue 2 of Volume 11, there will be a similar article
explaining "wi-fi" ("wireless"), along with wi-max, streaming,
Bluetooth, and related new tech.
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
10 Oct 2005 04:07:54 PM |
|
|
A few kids (like I was, around 1940) don't need any prodding ---
they'll just naturally get interested in math & phys. But plenty of
educators and Govt. people are now worried that it's not enough kids,
and our economy (& security) needs more.
Math & phys. don't seem "hip" to many kids --- but music is. So
explanation of MP3 might get more kids curious about "how does that
work?" Sure, some other application might do it, but that seems like
good application to attract interest, at least initially. Then there's
Bluetooth, wi-fi, and other "wireless" stuff that will appear in the
next issue of that magazine.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
10 Oct 2005 04:33:36 PM |
|
|
<shanefield@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:1128978474.030321.176400@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
|A few kids (like I was, around 1940) don't need any prodding ---
| they'll just naturally get interested in math & phys. But plenty of
| educators and Govt. people are now worried that it's not enough kids,
| and our economy (& security) needs more.
|
| Math & phys. don't seem "hip" to many kids --- but music is. So
| explanation of MP3 might get more kids curious about "how does that
| work?" Sure, some other application might do it, but that seems like
| good application to attract interest, at least initially. Then there's
| Bluetooth, wi-fi, and other "wireless" stuff that will appear in the
| next issue of that magazine.
|
Yep, I agree. And they've all got computers/iPods, teach binary.
It's easier than decimal anyway, so why not start with it?
The reason, of course, is that teachers teach what teachers know,
and they are always a generation late. Having the main problem
of being police in the school, struggling to maintain disciple without
a good rap across the knuckles, it takes 12 years for the kids to soak
up what they could otherwise absorb in 6, leaving six more for some
real advancement.
Androcles
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ken S. Tucker" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
10 Oct 2005 05:04:31 PM |
|
|
Androcles wrote:
<shanefield@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:1128978474.030321.176400@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
|A few kids (like I was, around 1940) don't need any prodding ---
| they'll just naturally get interested in math & phys. But plenty of
| educators and Govt. people are now worried that it's not enough kids,
| and our economy (& security) needs more.
|
| Math & phys. don't seem "hip" to many kids --- but music is. So
| explanation of MP3 might get more kids curious about "how does that
| work?" Sure, some other application might do it, but that seems like
| good application to attract interest, at least initially. Then there's
| Bluetooth, wi-fi, and other "wireless" stuff that will appear in the
| next issue of that magazine.
|
Yep, I agree. And they've all got computers/iPods, teach binary.
Mr Potato"e" head Androclities, where do you live,
many kids can't even get a drink of clean water,
and you want to issue them iPods, ding-bat!!!!
How about a course on finding clean water?
Ken
PS: English are all stupid and if not gay,
same as the canucks, yukky.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
10 Oct 2005 05:39:50 PM |
|
|
"Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in message
news:1128981871.636942.156790@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
|
| Androcles wrote:
| > <shanefield@ieee.org> wrote in message
| > news:1128978474.030321.176400@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| > |A few kids (like I was, around 1940) don't need any prodding ---
| > | they'll just naturally get interested in math & phys. But plenty
of
| > | educators and Govt. people are now worried that it's not enough
kids,
| > | and our economy (& security) needs more.
| > |
| > | Math & phys. don't seem "hip" to many kids --- but music is. So
| > | explanation of MP3 might get more kids curious about "how does
that
| > | work?" Sure, some other application might do it, but that seems
like
| > | good application to attract interest, at least initially. Then
there's
| > | Bluetooth, wi-fi, and other "wireless" stuff that will appear in
the
| > | next issue of that magazine.
| > |
|
| > Yep, I agree. And they've all got computers/iPods, teach binary.
|
| Mr Potato"e" head Androclities, where do you live,
| many kids can't even get a drink of clean water,
| and you want to issue them iPods, ding-bat!!!!
| How about a course on finding clean water?
| Ken
|
| PS: English are all stupid and if not gay,
| same as the canucks, yukky.
|
Are you drunk again, stoopid *****, or is it the cocaine this time?
Androcles.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ken S. Tucker" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
10 Oct 2005 06:36:34 PM |
|
|
Sorry...
| PS: English are all stupid and if not gay,
| same as the canucks, yukky.
|
Are you drunk again, stoopid *****, or is it the cocaine this time?
Androcles.
Hey Andro-tities I get dizzy smokin a cig.
Evidentally you have more experience, tell the
group about your cocaine habit.
Let's out Androclities...
Ken
.
|
|
|
| User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
10 Oct 2005 06:59:41 PM |
|
|
"Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in message
news:1128987394.770535.59110@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
| Sorry...
|
| > | PS: English are all stupid and if not gay,
| > | same as the canucks, yukky.
| > |
|
| > Are you drunk again, stoopid *****, or is it the cocaine this time?
| > Androcles.
|
| Hey Andro-tities I get dizzy smokin a cig.
| Evidentally you have more experience, tell the
| group about your cocaine habit.
|
| Let's out Androclities...
| Ken
Dearest Ken ducky, if you are not on booze or recreational drugs
then take your medication the psychiatrist prescribed.
Androcles.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Ken S. Tucker" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
10 Oct 2005 04:29:02 PM |
|
|
Hi Shanefi,
shanefield@ieee.org wrote:
A few kids (like I was, around 1940) don't need any prodding ---
they'll just naturally get interested in math & phys. But plenty of
educators and Govt. people are now worried that it's not enough kids,
and our economy (& security) needs more.
ok, fall back on national security, increase
brain-washing, wave the flag, all for physics.
Is that what you want?
Math & phys. don't seem "hip" to many kids --- but music is. So
explanation of MP3 might get more kids curious about "how does that
work?" Sure, some other application might do it, but that seems like
good application to attract interest, at least initially. Then there's
Bluetooth, wi-fi, and other "wireless" stuff that will appear in the
next issue of that magazine.
You're PoV is biased. You're tainting an entire generation
of kids with "hip" motives, an echo from people who
thought the Beatles et al, would destroy civilization.
You can take you're magazine to include broader issues,
and that way appeal to many of the "hop" generation
who really do care about the future they will inherit.
I think kids are smarter than me, and they have the
creative energy to prove that!
Good Regards
Ken
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
10 Oct 2005 08:07:22 PM |
|
|
In article <1128978474.030321.176400@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
<shanefield@ieee.org> wrote:
A few kids (like I was, around 1940) don't need any prodding ---
they'll just naturally get interested in math & phys. But plenty of
educators and Govt. people are now worried that it's not enough kids,
and our economy (& security) needs more.
There aren't enough jobs for all the physics graduates today, there hasn't
been for decades. Educators are worried about the strength of their
department, and a continuing supply of grad students and post docs to
carry the work load. Industry enjoys the higher productivity and lower
salaries associated with a labor excess. Government people want to
maintain a pool of surplus technically trained people that can move in
quickly if a need ever comes up. I've never seen a critical evaluation in
APS publications on whether you'd be doing the students any favors by
attracting them to physics.
I wish I were making this stuff up.
"NSF falls short on shortage", Nature 356, 553 (1992).
"Lost numbers game", Nature 356, 548 (1992).
"Dentistry and the Priesthood Better Career Bets Than Science", APS News
13, 4 (October 2004).
"Supply Without Demand", Science 303, 1105 (2004).
"Don't Become a Scientist!", http://wuphys.wustl.edu/~katz/scientist.html
--
"Very well, he replied, I allow you cow's dung in place of human
excrement; bake your bread on that." -- Ezekiel 4:15
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Zenner" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
10 Oct 2005 08:36:20 PM |
|
|
(Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
news:dif38a$7el$2@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
snip
There aren't enough jobs for all the physics graduates today, there
hasn't been for decades.
snip
That doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage an interest. The best manage
to find a niche in physics leaving the others to contribute in a wide
variety of fields.
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
10 Oct 2005 09:18:41 PM |
|
|
There aren't enough jobs for all the physics graduates today, there hasn't been for decades.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage an interest. The best manage
to find a niche in physics leaving the others to contribute in a wide
variety of fields.
***********************
As with cybernetics.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Al Zenner" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
10 Oct 2005 08:35:48 PM |
|
|
(Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
news:dif38a$7el$2@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
snip
There aren't enough jobs for all the physics graduates today, there
hasn't been for decades.
snip
That doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage an interest. The best manage
to find a niche in physics leaving the others to contribute in other
fields.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
11 Oct 2005 02:35:22 AM |
|
|
"Al Zenner" <azen@zenner.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96EBD16BDC20Ezsp@63.223.5.248...
| (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
| news:dif38a$7el$2@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
|
| snip
|
| > There aren't enough jobs for all the physics graduates today, there
| > hasn't been for decades.
|
| snip
|
| That doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage an interest. The best manage
| to find a niche in physics leaving the others to contribute in other
| fields.
Give them a train set for xmas and let them get on with ripping it apart
to see how it works.
That worked for me.
Androcles.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
10 Oct 2005 09:19:09 PM |
|
|
In article <Xns96EBD16BDC20Ezsp@63.223.5.248>,
Al Zenner <azen@zenner.com> wrote:
glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
news:dif38a$7el$2@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
snip
There aren't enough jobs for all the physics graduates today, there
hasn't been for decades.
snip
That doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage an interest. The best manage
to find a niche in physics leaving the others to contribute in other
fields.
That's great for educators whose budget and, perhaps, the very existence
of their department depends on the number of enrollments. But it shows a
callous disgregard for the welfare of the students themselves. Where are
they going to go? Engineering? Engineers hire engineers; they consider
physics to be a "niche", and some don't consider physics to be a
"technical" degree at all. Computer programming? Maybe twenty years ago,
not today, and programmers have expressed more admiration for the
programming abilities of musicians than of physicists. (I wouldn't really
recommend that anyone tries to break into IT these days...) Finance?
Good idea if they picked up a finance background along with their physics
degree, or they want to live in Manhattan.
Perhaps they could just get a degree in another field and then contribute
in that field.
Much ink has been spread in the pages of Physics Today about the reasons
enrollment in physics programs are dropping. And they've found perfectly
valid problems with the typical physics program that existed during the
climbing enrollments at the height of the Cold War. But I've never seen
them speculate that one reason might be a growing awareness among the
students of their job prospects on graduation.
--
"Tell me, Dr. Einstein, at what time does Boston arrive at this train?"
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Zenner" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
10 Oct 2005 10:22:17 PM |
|
|
(Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
news:dif7et$9bk$1@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
In article <Xns96EBD16BDC20Ezsp@63.223.5.248>,
Al Zenner <azen@zenner.com> wrote:
(Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
news:dif38a$7el$2@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
snip
There aren't enough jobs for all the physics graduates today, there
hasn't been for decades.
snip
That doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage an interest. The best manage
to find a niche in physics leaving the others to contribute in other
fields.
That's great for educators whose budget and, perhaps, the very existence
of their department depends on the number of enrollments. But it shows
a callous disgregard for the welfare of the students themselves.
snip
We disagree. Smart parents insist on dual training. *Every* kid should
have a primary as well as a fallback career. Diversity and adaptability
are critical to economic success. The reasons for this are obvious.
Kids smart enough to successfully learn physics are smart enough to
concurrently achieve at least dual degrees.
.
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| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
10 Oct 2005 10:35:49 PM |
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In article <Xns96EBE37DCCBFzsp@63.223.5.248>,
Al Zenner <azen@zenner.com> wrote:
glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
news:dif7et$9bk$1@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
In article <Xns96EBD16BDC20Ezsp@63.223.5.248>,
Al Zenner <azen@zenner.com> wrote:
glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
news:dif38a$7el$2@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
snip
There aren't enough jobs for all the physics graduates today, there
hasn't been for decades.
snip
That doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage an interest. The best manage
to find a niche in physics leaving the others to contribute in other
fields.
That's great for educators whose budget and, perhaps, the very existence
of their department depends on the number of enrollments. But it shows
a callous disgregard for the welfare of the students themselves.
snip
We disagree. Smart parents insist on dual training. *Every* kid should
have a primary as well as a fallback career. Diversity and adaptability
are critical to economic success. The reasons for this are obvious.
Kids smart enough to successfully learn physics are smart enough to
concurrently achieve at least dual degrees.
It takes the average student five or six years to complete a degree in
physics as it is. Throw an accounting degree on top of that, and how long
do you think they're going to be in there? Especially if they're also
working a job to pay for it. Work 20 hours per week with a 16 credit
load-- it ain't easy, and your grades will suffer for it! Been there. I
know a girl that works full-time and takes classes on those semesters when
she has enough money to pay for them-- how many degrees should she be
pursuing?
Try a dual degree in accounting and english. That would give them the
technical and communication skills that are so valued in business. Or
engineering and english, or business management and MIS, or politics and
history. Of all the dual degree programs that are possible, why should
physics be chosen above another?
Greg's first rule of humanity: Whatever your job, hobby, or special
interest is, you'll think it's more important than anyone else does.
--
"No other major companies were working on [computer-controlled homes], and
that was exactly the problem. Microsoft does best when it has a
successful competitor it can copy and then crush." -- Marlin Eller,
"Barbarians Led by Bill Gates", 1998
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
10 Oct 2005 10:33:06 PM |
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In article <Xns96EBE37DCCBFzsp@63.223.5.248>, Al Zenner <azen@zenner.com> writes:
glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
news:dif7et$9bk$1@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
In article <Xns96EBD16BDC20Ezsp@63.223.5.248>,
Al Zenner <azen@zenner.com> wrote:
glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
news:dif38a$7el$2@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
snip
There aren't enough jobs for all the physics graduates today, there
hasn't been for decades.
snip
That doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage an interest. The best manage
to find a niche in physics leaving the others to contribute in other
fields.
That's great for educators whose budget and, perhaps, the very existence
of their department depends on the number of enrollments. But it shows
a callous disgregard for the welfare of the students themselves.
snip
We disagree. Smart parents insist on dual training. *Every* kid should
have a primary as well as a fallback career. Diversity and adaptability
are critical to economic success. The reasons for this are obvious.
Kids smart enough to successfully learn physics are smart enough to
concurrently achieve at least dual degrees.
BS in physics counts for nothing, and phD in physics requires an
effort and dedication which don't leave you time for much extra stuff.
Of course, if somebody wants just to graduate with a minor in physics,
for the interest alone, that's quite doable but that's not what we're
talking about here.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
.
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| User: "Al Zenner" |
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| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
11 Oct 2005 05:30:04 AM |
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wrote in
news:SnG2f.32$25.6099@news.uchicago.edu:
In article <Xns96EBE37DCCBFzsp@63.223.5.248>, Al Zenner
<azen@zenner.com> writes:
glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
news:dif7et$9bk$1@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
In article <Xns96EBD16BDC20Ezsp@63.223.5.248>,
Al Zenner <azen@zenner.com> wrote:
glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
news:dif38a$7el$2@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
snip
There aren't enough jobs for all the physics graduates today, there
hasn't been for decades.
snip
That doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage an interest. The best manage
to find a niche in physics leaving the others to contribute in other
fields.
That's great for educators whose budget and, perhaps, the very
existence of their department depends on the number of enrollments.
But it shows a callous disgregard for the welfare of the students
themselves.
snip
We disagree. Smart parents insist on dual training. *Every* kid should
have a primary as well as a fallback career. Diversity and adaptability
are critical to economic success. The reasons for this are obvious.
Kids smart enough to successfully learn physics are smart enough to
concurrently achieve at least dual degrees.
BS in physics counts for nothing,
Nonsense. Research generally requires a doctorate but there are plenty
of careers in education, and elsewhere, that are quite content with a
BS or a BA in science.
and phD in physics requires an
effort and dedication which don't leave you time for much extra stuff.
That depends on the caliber of both the student and the school.
Of course, if somebody wants just to graduate with a minor in physics,
for the interest alone, that's quite doable but that's not what we're
talking about here.
Perhaps you're not.
An undergraduate degree is a cull point and a measure of success which
can lead to a career. "Getting students interested in physics" certainly
isn't addressing the graduate level student. By the time they start
seriously thinking about graduate school they better know what their
interests are and we shouldn't be able to shake them.
I can't stress this enough. *Every* kid should have a primary as well
as a fallback career. Diversity and adaptability are critical to
economic success.
Look around. There are lots of physics (and other science) docs living
well in careers any grad student, lacking life experience, would view
as underemployment. As it turns out, not all roads lead to Rome.
.
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| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
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| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
11 Oct 2005 08:58:03 AM |
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In article <Xns96EC37E0C1D99zsp@63.223.5.248>,
Al Zenner <azen@zenner.com> wrote:
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote in
news:SnG2f.32$25.6099@news.uchicago.edu:
In article <Xns96EBE37DCCBFzsp@63.223.5.248>, Al Zenner
<azen@zenner.com> writes:
glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
news:dif7et$9bk$1@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
In article <Xns96EBD16BDC20Ezsp@63.223.5.248>,
Al Zenner <azen@zenner.com> wrote:
glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
news:dif38a$7el$2@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
snip
There aren't enough jobs for all the physics graduates today, there
hasn't been for decades.
snip
That doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage an interest. The best manage
to find a niche in physics leaving the others to contribute in other
fields.
That's great for educators whose budget and, perhaps, the very
existence of their department depends on the number of enrollments.
But it shows a callous disgregard for the welfare of the students
themselves.
snip
We disagree. Smart parents insist on dual training. *Every* kid should
have a primary as well as a fallback career. Diversity and adaptability
are critical to economic success. The reasons for this are obvious.
Kids smart enough to successfully learn physics are smart enough to
concurrently achieve at least dual degrees.
BS in physics counts for nothing,
Nonsense. Research generally requires a doctorate but there are plenty
of careers in education, and elsewhere, that are quite content with a
BS or a BA in science.
I know someone that has a bachelor's in math. Now he's a service manager
at FedEx-- he supervises people that unload trucks. The position has
absolutely nothing at all to do with math, they just require a bachelor's
degree, any bachelor's degree, for the position. Likewise, I met a woman
whose degree in english got her a manager's job at a Target store,
although that sort of position can be acheived without an education by
just working as a schlub until you know the business and then sending in
your resume, like an asssistant manager I know at a Walgreens.
A BS in physics won't get you a job that requires a knowledge of physics.
For a career in education, at least in my state, you need education
credentials, not science credentials.
Look around. There are lots of physics (and other science) docs living
well in careers any grad student, lacking life experience, would view
as underemployment. As it turns out, not all roads lead to Rome.
Name three, and their positions.
--
"For every problem there is a solution which is simple, clean and wrong."
-- Henry Louis Mencken
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| User: "Al Zenner" |
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| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
11 Oct 2005 11:03:59 AM |
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(Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
news:diggdb$mm3$1@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
In article <Xns96EC37E0C1D99zsp@63.223.5.248>,
Al Zenner <azen@zenner.com> wrote:
snip
A BS in physics won't get you a job that requires a knowledge of
physics.
google job ba physics 1,380,000 hits
For a career in education, at least in my state, you need
education credentials, not science credentials.
While teaching credentials require a little work, they're not very
difficult to acquire. And if I'm not mistaken they're not universally
required for teaching in private schools. In many cases an "emergency
certificate" is available to enable the individual to complete the
additional coursework and labs required for most teaching certificates.
Look around. There are lots of physics (and other science) docs living
well in careers any grad student, lacking life experience, would view
as underemployment. As it turns out, not all roads lead to Rome.
Name three, and their positions.
One high school teacher retired (minored undergrad in Social Sciences
and taught that and HS algebra)
One headed up an ethnic charity
One is a currently a commodities trader
If you were in any one of their positions would you want me bandying
your name about in a usenet discussion? I think not. I decline to name
real names.
.
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| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
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| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
12 Oct 2005 12:05:34 PM |
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In article <Xns96EC707D2A86Azsp@63.223.5.248>,
Al Zenner <azen@zenner.com> wrote:
glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
news:diggdb$mm3$1@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
In article <Xns96EC37E0C1D99zsp@63.223.5.248>,
Al Zenner <azen@zenner.com> wrote:
snip
A BS in physics won't get you a job that requires a knowledge of
physics.
google job ba physics 1,380,000 hits
I didn't see a lot of job offers in the links I'd looked at...
Try a similar search on CareerBuilder.
And I can tell you that I've looked at a position at a major defense
contractor that suggested physicists would be welcome, but when I talked
to the hiring manager he didn't want anything to do with them. Engineers
don't hire physicists, they hire engineers.
Look around. There are lots of physics (and other science) docs living
well in careers any grad student, lacking life experience, would view
as underemployment. As it turns out, not all roads lead to Rome.
Name three, and their positions.
One high school teacher retired (minored undergrad in Social Sciences
and taught that and HS algebra)
One headed up an ethnic charity
One is a currently a commodities trader
If you were in any one of their positions would you want me bandying
your name about in a usenet discussion? I think not. I decline to name
real names.
None using their degree, though. I can list a few recent PhD grads who've
gotten jobs outside of academia.
One trading securities in Manhattan.
Another one trading securities in Manhattan.
One, at last notice, unemployed in Switzerland.
One in retail.
I don't actually know anyone that graduated in the last five years or so,
except those that found a place in academia or are in the post-doc holding
pattern, that are doing anything with their degrees. Do you know of
anyone?
What the heck do you base your position on, that a physics degree is
particularly valuable to a job seeker? Maybe that was true 30 years ago,
but the Cold War is over.
--
"The result of this experiment was inconclusive, so we had to use
statistics." (Overheard at international physics conference)
.
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| User: "PD" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
13 Oct 2005 01:39:16 PM |
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Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
In article <Xns96EC707D2A86Azsp@63.223.5.248>,
Al Zenner <azen@zenner.com> wrote:
glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
news:diggdb$mm3$1@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
In article <Xns96EC37E0C1D99zsp@63.223.5.248>,
Al Zenner <azen@zenner.com> wrote:
snip
A BS in physics won't get you a job that requires a knowledge of
physics.
google job ba physics 1,380,000 hits
I didn't see a lot of job offers in the links I'd looked at...
Try a similar search on CareerBuilder.
And I can tell you that I've looked at a position at a major defense
contractor that suggested physicists would be welcome, but when I talked
to the hiring manager he didn't want anything to do with them. Engineers
don't hire physicists, they hire engineers.
Look around. There are lots of physics (and other science) docs living
well in careers any grad student, lacking life experience, would view
as underemployment. As it turns out, not all roads lead to Rome.
Name three, and their positions.
One high school teacher retired (minored undergrad in Social Sciences
and taught that and HS algebra)
One headed up an ethnic charity
One is a currently a commodities trader
If you were in any one of their positions would you want me bandying
your name about in a usenet discussion? I think not. I decline to name
real names.
None using their degree, though. I can list a few recent PhD grads who've
gotten jobs outside of academia.
I don't know that it's important to find work in your training. PhDs
are prized (when they are) not for their content knowledge in a
particular area so much as they are for their proven:
a) ability to work in a small collaborative group
b) ability to communicate their work both orally and written
c) exceptional drive to work tirelessly and overcome obstacles
d) fearlessness when it comes to absorbing new skills and new
knowledge, and their resourcefulness in self-training
e) ability to work without close supervision and to monitor the quality
of their own work
f) broad exposure to and base competency with tools that may be
applicable to the work
This is a fairly generic attribute set, and so it's often the case that
a PhD in psychology would do as well in a position as a PhD in physics.
Recognition of these desirabilities often benefits the hirer and the
job-seeker.
PD
One trading securities in Manhattan.
Another one trading securities in Manhattan.
One, at last notice, unemployed in Switzerland.
One in retail.
I don't actually know anyone that graduated in the last five years or so,
except those that found a place in academia or are in the post-doc holding
pattern, that are doing anything with their degrees. Do you know of
anyone?
What the heck do you base your position on, that a physics degree is
particularly valuable to a job seeker? Maybe that was true 30 years ago,
but the Cold War is over.
--
"The result of this experiment was inconclusive, so we had to use
statistics." (Overheard at international physics conference)
.
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| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
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| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
14 Oct 2005 08:46:07 PM |
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In article <1129228756.960520.48070@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
PD <TheDraperFamily@gmail.com> wrote:
Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
In article <Xns96EC707D2A86Azsp@63.223.5.248>,
Al Zenner <azen@zenner.com> wrote:
None using their degree, though. I can list a few recent PhD grads who've
gotten jobs outside of academia.
I don't know that it's important to find work in your training. PhDs
are prized (when they are) not for their content knowledge in a
particular area so much as they are for their proven:
a) ability to work in a small collaborative group
b) ability to communicate their work both orally and written
c) exceptional drive to work tirelessly and overcome obstacles
d) fearlessness when it comes to absorbing new skills and new
knowledge, and their resourcefulness in self-training
e) ability to work without close supervision and to monitor the quality
of their own work
f) broad exposure to and base competency with tools that may be
applicable to the work
This is a fairly generic attribute set, and so it's often the case that
a PhD in psychology would do as well in a position as a PhD in physics.
Recognition of these desirabilities often benefits the hirer and the
job-seeker.
I don't think a PhD is much more impressive than a bachelor's in that
respect. You're more liable to get the "I don't think you'd be happy in
this position" line.
I know a manager at a Walgreen's who has a degree in computer science.
But then, you don't need a degree to be a manager at Walgreen's.
--
"In any case, don't stress too much--cortisol inhibits muscular
hypertrophy. " -- Eric Dodd
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
15 Oct 2005 08:02:15 AM |
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In article <dipn0v$vdk$2@rainier.uits.indiana.edu>,
(Gregory L. Hansen) wrote:
In article <1129228756.960520.48070@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
PD <TheDraperFamily@gmail.com> wrote:
Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
In article <Xns96EC707D2A86Azsp@63.223.5.248>,
Al Zenner <azen@zenner.com> wrote:
None using their degree, though. I can list a few recent PhD grads who've
gotten jobs outside of academia.
I don't know that it's important to find work in your training. PhDs
are prized (when they are) not for their content knowledge in a
particular area so much as they are for their proven:
a) ability to work in a small collaborative group
b) ability to communicate their work both orally and written
c) exceptional drive to work tirelessly and overcome obstacles
d) fearlessness when it comes to absorbing new skills and new
knowledge, and their resourcefulness in self-training
e) ability to work without close supervision and to monitor the quality
of their own work
f) broad exposure to and base competency with tools that may be
applicable to the work
This is a fairly generic attribute set, and so it's often the case that
a PhD in psychology would do as well in a position as a PhD in physics.
Recognition of these desirabilities often benefits the hirer and the
job-seeker.
I don't think a PhD is much more impressive than a bachelor's in that
respect. You're more liable to get the "I don't think you'd be happy in
this position" line.
I know a manager at a Walgreen's who has a degree in computer science.
But then, you don't need a degree to be a manager at Walgreen's.
No, but that biz is using "just in time" inventory control.
This requires hardware and software and comm gear. In addition,
every item is scanned. The hard/software behind that now
common action in all retail stores is astonishing. Find
somebody who has done or is doing this work. Get him/her
to start talking about his work. It's facinating.
/BAH
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| User: "Mark Martin" |
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| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
13 Oct 2005 01:50:35 PM |
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PD wrote:
I don't know that it's important to find work in your training. PhDs
are prized (when they are) not for their content knowledge in a
particular area so much as they are for their proven:
a) ability to work in a small collaborative group
b) ability to communicate their work both orally and written
c) exceptional drive to work tirelessly and overcome obstacles
d) fearlessness when it comes to absorbing new skills and new
knowledge, and their resourcefulness in self-training
e) ability to work without close supervision and to monitor the quality
of their own work
f) broad exposure to and base competency with tools that may be
applicable to the work
This is a fairly generic attribute set, and so it's often the case that
a PhD in psychology would do as well in a position as a PhD in physics.
Recognition of these desirabilities often benefits the hirer and the
job-seeker.
Indeed. A case in point: My brother works with a company whose chief
administrator holds a PhD, and experience, in oceanography. Now she
manages a teflon factory.
-Mark Martin
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Getting students interested in physics |
11 Oct 2005 11:12:58 AM |
|
|
In article <Xns96EC37E0C1D99zsp@63.223.5.248>, Al Zenner <azen@zenner.com> writes:
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote in
news:SnG2f.32$25.6099@news.uchicago.edu:
In article <Xns96EBE37DCCBFzsp@63.223.5.248>, Al Zenner
<azen@zenner.com> writes:
glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
news:dif7et$9bk$1@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
In article <Xns96EBD16BDC20Ezsp@63.223.5.248>,
Al Zenner <azen@zenner.com> wrote:
glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote in
news:dif38a$7el$2@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
snip
There aren't enough jobs for all the physics graduates today, there
hasn't been for decades.
snip
That doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage an interest. The best manage
to find a niche in physics leaving the others to contribute in other
fields.
That's great for educators whose budget and, perhaps, the very
existence of their department depends on the number of enrollments.
But it shows a callous disgregard for the welfare of the students
themselves.
snip
We disagree. Smart parents insist on dual training. *Every* kid should
have a primary as well as a fallback career. Diversity and adaptability
are critical to economic success. The reasons for this are obvious.
Kids smart enough to successfully learn physics are smart enough to
concurrently achieve at least dual degrees.
BS in physics counts for nothing,
Nonsense. Research generally requires a doctorate but there are plenty
of careers in education, and elsewhere, that are quite content with a
BS or a BA in science.
We've a different concept what being a physicist means.
and phD in physics requires an
effort and dedication which don't leave you time for much extra stuff.
That depends on the caliber of both the student and the school.
Again, we've a different concept what being a physicist means. It is
quite a tad more than "getting a diploma". Sure you can find mediocre
schools where they'll give you a piece of paper for little or no work.
That's not what you're aiming for.
Of course, if somebody wants just to graduate with a minor in physics,
for the interest alone, that's quite doable but that's not what we're
talking about here.
Perhaps you're not.
Well, perhaps not. I'll repeat the last time, we've a different
concept of what being a physicist means.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
.
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