GR Geometry a Metaphor



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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "Mr. QG"
Date: 14 Mar 2006 02:01:33 AM
Object: GR Geometry a Metaphor
For relativity experts who are familiar with GR master
Lee Smolin and especially the following concept of
his, pls. expand on it:
Lee Smolin declares:
Many popular accounts of general relativity contain a lot
of talk about 'the geometry of spacetime'. But actually
most of that has to do with the causal structure.
[In our universe, specifying the paths of all the light
rays or, equivalently, drawing the light cones around
every event, is a way to describe the structure of
all possible causal relations. Together, these relations
comprise what we call the causal structure of the
univesre] Almost all of the information needed to
construct the geometry of spacetime consists of
the story of the causal structure. So not only do we
live in a causal universe, but most of the story of
our universe is the story of the causal relations
among its events. The metaphor in which space
and time have a geometry, call the spacetime
geometry, is not actually very helpful in understanding
the physical meaning of general relativity. That
metaphor is based on a mathematical coincidence
that is helpful only to those who know enough
mathematics to make use of it. The fundemental
idea in general relativity is that the causal structure
of events can itself be influenced by those events.
The causal structure is not fixed for all time. It is
dynamical: it evolves, subject to laws. The laws
that determine how the causal structure of the
universe grows in time are called the Einstein
equations. They are very complicated, but
when there are big, slow moving klutzes of matter
around, like stars and planets, they become much
simpler. Basically, what happens then is that the
light cones tilt towards the matter. (This is what
is often described as the curvature, or distortion
of the geometry of space and time) As a result,
matter tends to fall towards the massive object.
This is, of course, another way of talking about
the gravitional force.
Comments?
QG
.

User: "Bill Hobba"

Title: Re: GR Geometry a Metaphor 14 Mar 2006 05:11:15 AM
"Mr. QG" <mrquantumgravity@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142323293.685528.165320@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...


For relativity experts who are familiar with GR master
Lee Smolin and especially the following concept of
his, pls. expand on it:

Lee Smolin declares:

Many popular accounts of general relativity contain a lot
of talk about 'the geometry of spacetime'. But actually
most of that has to do with the causal structure.
[In our universe, specifying the paths of all the light
rays or, equivalently, drawing the light cones around
every event, is a way to describe the structure of
all possible causal relations. Together, these relations
comprise what we call the causal structure of the
univesre] Almost all of the information needed to
construct the geometry of spacetime consists of
the story of the causal structure. So not only do we
live in a causal universe, but most of the story of
our universe is the story of the causal relations
among its events. The metaphor in which space
and time have a geometry, call the spacetime
geometry, is not actually very helpful in understanding
the physical meaning of general relativity. That
metaphor is based on a mathematical coincidence
that is helpful only to those who know enough
mathematics to make use of it. The fundemental
idea in general relativity is that the causal structure
of events can itself be influenced by those events.

IMHO the fundamental idea of GR is no prior geometry. It is not just my
view either - but the view of the equally esteemed Wheeler. When delving
into the philosophy of a scientific theory one rarely finds consensus.
Bill

The causal structure is not fixed for all time. It is
dynamical: it evolves, subject to laws. The laws
that determine how the causal structure of the
universe grows in time are called the Einstein
equations. They are very complicated, but
when there are big, slow moving klutzes of matter
around, like stars and planets, they become much
simpler. Basically, what happens then is that the
light cones tilt towards the matter. (This is what
is often described as the curvature, or distortion
of the geometry of space and time) As a result,
matter tends to fall towards the massive object.
This is, of course, another way of talking about
the gravitional force.

Comments?

QG

.

User: "BlagooBlanaa"

Title: Re: GR Geometry a Metaphor 14 Mar 2006 02:53:19 AM
"Mr. QG" <mrquantumgravity@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142323293.685528.165320@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...


For relativity experts who are familiar with GR master
Lee Smolin and especially the following concept of
his, pls. expand on it:

Lee Smolin declares:

Many popular accounts of general relativity contain a lot
of talk about 'the geometry of spacetime'. But actually
most of that has to do with the causal structure.
[In our universe, specifying the paths of all the light
rays or, equivalently, drawing the light cones around
every event, is a way to describe the structure of
all possible causal relations. Together, these relations
comprise what we call the causal structure of the
univesre] Almost all of the information needed to
construct the geometry of spacetime consists of
the story of the causal structure. So not only do we
live in a causal universe, but most of the story of
our universe is the story of the causal relations
among its events. The metaphor in which space
and time have a geometry, call the spacetime
geometry, is not actually very helpful in understanding
the physical meaning of general relativity. That
metaphor is based on a mathematical coincidence
that is helpful only to those who know enough
mathematics to make use of it. The fundemental
idea in general relativity is that the causal structure
of events can itself be influenced by those events.
The causal structure is not fixed for all time. It is
dynamical: it evolves, subject to laws. The laws
that determine how the causal structure of the
universe grows in time are called the Einstein
equations. They are very complicated, but
when there are big, slow moving klutzes of matter
around, like stars and planets, they become much
simpler. Basically, what happens then is that the
light cones tilt towards the matter. (This is what
is often described as the curvature, or distortion
of the geometry of space and time) As a result,
matter tends to fall towards the massive object.
This is, of course, another way of talking about
the gravitional force.

Comments?

QG

only two things suck inexorably
time and gravity
If what Smolin is saying is true then not only is the future indeterminate,
but also the past.
In fact, if we are faced with truly infinite time and space then the
probability
of being near this moment and near this place is zero.
bye b..
.

User: "jambaugh"

Title: Re: GR Geometry a Metaphor 14 Mar 2006 05:20:25 AM
If you view Einstein's equivalence "correctly" (correctly in my
judgement) then it doesn't imply that (gravitational) dynamics is a
function of geometry but rather that "geometry" is a function of
dynamics. It is dynamics of test particles which we phenomenologically
observe, and ultimately we only observe how said test particles
interact with other matter-energy.
This is independent of how we label said interaction events. However
we parameterize possible events with four continuous parameters ( and
may choose more when we begin giving details of the events). The
choice of parameterization is arbitrary. We can pick an arbitrary
local geometry and view deviation from geodesic motion as defined by
that geometry as an external force. One set of dynamic evolutions
corresponding to geodesic motion we call the zero dynamic.
Change the choice of geometry and we reset how much a given dynamic
evolution is considered to deviate from geodesic motion. The physical
behavior doesn't change one whit. Effectively the EP says we may
arbitrarily change the sub-division of an effective (gravitational)
force into "physical force" and "pseudo-force". Einstein's equations
determine in one sense, the choice of geometry in which all
gravitational forces are "pseudo". In that sense the Christofel
symbols are the geometric connection. In another sense Einstein's
equations are field equations for the physical gravitational field
where we select a "flat geometry" for the given coordinate system.
Without general relativity that coordinate system would be prefered.
By itself this issue would be pretty much academic. However it is
important to distinguish the physical phenomena from the meta-physical
constructs when we then attempt to quantize the gravitational
interaction. It makes no sense to quantize geometry or quantize
space-time. These are mathematical entities. We need to quantize the
physical interactions rather than the parametric mathematical
constructs.
Regards,
James Baugh
.
User: "BlagooBlanaa"

Title: Re: GR Geometry a Metaphor 14 Mar 2006 05:04:01 PM
geometry is unphysical
.

User: "Sue..."

Title: Re: GR Geometry a Metaphor 14 Mar 2006 05:46:50 AM
jambaugh wrote:

If you view Einstein's equivalence "correctly" (correctly in my
judgement) then it doesn't imply that (gravitational) dynamics is a
function of geometry but rather that "geometry" is a function of
dynamics. It is dynamics of test particles which we phenomenologically
observe, and ultimately we only observe how said test particles
interact with other matter-energy.

This is independent of how we label said interaction events. However
we parameterize possible events with four continuous parameters ( and
may choose more when we begin giving details of the events). The
choice of parameterization is arbitrary. We can pick an arbitrary
local geometry and view deviation from geodesic motion as defined by
that geometry as an external force. One set of dynamic evolutions
corresponding to geodesic motion we call the zero dynamic.

Change the choice of geometry and we reset how much a given dynamic
evolution is considered to deviate from geodesic motion. The physical
behavior doesn't change one whit. Effectively the EP says we may
arbitrarily change the sub-division of an effective (gravitational)
force into "physical force" and "pseudo-force". Einstein's equations
determine in one sense, the choice of geometry in which all
gravitational forces are "pseudo". In that sense the Christofel
symbols are the geometric connection. In another sense Einstein's
equations are field equations for the physical gravitational field
where we select a "flat geometry" for the given coordinate system.
Without general relativity that coordinate system would be prefered.

By itself this issue would be pretty much academic. However it is
important to distinguish the physical phenomena from the meta-physical
constructs when we then attempt to quantize the gravitational
interaction. It makes no sense to quantize geometry or quantize
space-time. These are mathematical entities. We need to quantize the
physical interactions rather than the parametric mathematical
constructs.

Further... if gravity is a mechanism to concentrate mass and
conserve energy, a tool built around the exchange of energy
(QM) may just be the squarest peg you could ever find for a round
hole. :-(
Sue...


Regards,
James Baugh

.



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