| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Sanny" |
| Date: |
06 Jan 2008 01:26:18 AM |
| Object: |
Gravitons Speed and other Properties? |
Gravitons are massless particles that are exchanged by mass to produce
gravity.
One of my friend told me there speed can be >c as well as <c.
So it can be faster than light as well as slower than light. How can
one measure the speed of a graviton?
If Two masses are 1 lightyear apart how much time it will take for
Gravitons to reach from one Mass to Another?
The Mass of Graviton is 0 as well as the Charge is 0. So how will you
track the Gravitons? And further Does it interact with other
particles? What happens when it collides with Photons or any other
particle. I heard it has 2 Spin.
Electrons has +/- 1/2 spin So they revolve in one direction or
opposite direction. What is the meaning of having 2 SPIN? Does it
Spins at Twice the Speed of Electron and in what direction.
Are these just Theoritical to satisfy the Mathematics or these
Gravitons are seen in real Experiments.
Since it has no mass and no charge. Does it occupy any space/ Volume?
Is it Rigid or Liquid type? Or is it a Wave?
Is there any Experimental Proof that Gravitons Exists Just like Quarks
etc.Or Is it made up of Quarks? Like all other Elementory Particles?
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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| User: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \dlzc" |
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| Title: Re: Gravitons Speed and other Properties? |
06 Jan 2008 11:19:29 AM |
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Dear Sanny:
"Sanny" <softtanks@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d1e3f178-9323-43da-9c46-34ca8719dfbe@j78g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
Gravitons are massless particles that are exchanged
by mass to produce gravity.
They have an inherent energy, according to my old book, so I
don't see how they can be massless.
One of my friend told me there speed can be >c as
well as <c.
So it can be faster than light as well as slower than
light. How can one measure the speed of a graviton?
You cannot, since you cannot know any quantum object's path.
....
Is there any Experimental Proof that Gravitons
Exists Just like Quarks etc.Or Is it made up of
Quarks? Like all other Elementory Particles?
There is no experimental observation of gravitons. There may be
some support of their existence come out of "dual to black hole"
expeirments.
There is no experimental observation of quarks. Only aggregates
of them.
Gravitons are not made up of quarks. No indication that
electrons are made up of quarks either.
David A. Smith
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| User: "Sue..." |
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| Title: Re: Gravitons Speed and other Properties? |
06 Jan 2008 02:18:42 AM |
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On Jan 6, 2:26=A0am, Sanny <softta...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Gravitons are massless particles that are exchanged by mass to produce
gravity.
One of my friend told me there speed can be >c as well as <c.
So it can be faster than light as well as slower than light. How can
one measure the speed of a graviton?
It can *seem* greater or less than c depending how you
order the events.
When you push a car, it pushes back (or crumples up)
instantly.
Over *time*, the universe repositions itself to accomodate
the gravitational field of the car's new position.
That *time* is established by the finite speed of light.
The instant response to a field established by
distant bodies seems faster than light.
The lag for the distant bodies to reposition
seems slower than light.
Ordering the gravito-inertal events correctly
allows the inclusion of the light speed limit
at the correct place in the mechanism.
If Two masses are 1 lightyear apart how much time it will take for
Gravitons to reach from one Mass to Another?
Greater than one lightyear.
The Mass of Graviton is 0 as well as the Charge is 0. So how will you
track the Gravitons? And further Does it interact with other
particles? What happens when it collides with Photons or any other
particle. I heard it has 2 Spin.
You track gravitons the same way you track photons.
Look at the matter they interact with.
Electrons has +/- 1/2 spin So they revolve in one direction or
opposite direction. What is the meaning of having 2 SPIN? Does it
Spins at Twice the Speed of Electron and in what direction.
There seems to nothing actually spinning but the magnetic
interaction is "as though" something was spinning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_momentum_coupling
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern%E2%80%93Gerlach_experiment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeeman_effect
http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/pr/2001/g-2_backgrounder.htm
"Achieving 99.9% Proton Spin-Flip Efficiency
At Higher Energy With A Small rf Dipole"
http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v93/i22/e224801
Are these just Theoritical to satisfy the Mathematics or these
Gravitons are seen in real Experiments.
The ~particle~ you are describing is purely mathematical
because you seem to visualise it as a point particle.
The same is true for photons.
But there is a place for a non-point particle in the
SM and some experiments to suggest its existance.
Since it has no mass and no charge. Does it occupy any space/ Volume?
Is it Rigid or Liquid type? Or is it a Wave?
Probably, it is a wave in the dielectric of free-space.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_impedance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_space
http://www-ssg.sr.unh.edu/ism/what.html
Is there any Experimental Proof that Gravitons Exists Just like Quarks
etc.Or Is it made up of Quarks? Like all other Elementory Particles?
"Local Photon and Graviton Mass and its Consequences"
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0603032v2
"The Origin of Gravity" [toy model]
http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0107015
Sue...
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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| User: "Eric Gisse" |
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| Title: Re: Gravitons Speed and other Properties? |
06 Jan 2008 02:25:42 AM |
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On Jan 5, 11:18 pm, "Sue..." <suzysewns...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
[snip irrelevant *****]
Why do you keep posting links that you don't understand?
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| User: "Sue..." |
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| Title: Re: Gravitons Speed and other Properties? |
06 Jan 2008 02:31:01 AM |
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On Jan 6, 3:25=A0am, Eric Gisse <jowr...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 5, 11:18 pm, "Sue..." <suzysewns...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
[snip irrelevant *****]
Why do you keep posting links that you don't understand?
I am hoping you will explain them. :o)
Sue...
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| User: "Ralph Hertle" |
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| Title: Re: Gravitons Speed and other Properties? |
06 Jan 2008 01:52:07 AM |
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Sanny <softtanks@hotmail.com>
Sanny wrote:
Gravitons are massless particles that are exchanged by mass to produce
gravity.
One of my friend told me there speed can be >c as well as <c.
So it can be faster than light as well as slower than light. How can
one measure the speed of a graviton?
[text omitted]
.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
The principle of the highest type of intelligent mind is that it asks
questions.
I've written some hypothetical answers to the causal matter of gravity
on Usenet. I suspect that many of these several posts have cycled off
the servers. I have posted on humanities.philosophy.objectivism,
alt.science.physics, and on geometry.research.
Since the BB theories began the flow of questions in science seems to
have slowed.
The universe according to whichever scientist is being asked seems to
have switched from infinite to finite and back. Where's it at now?
Bounded and infinite? Or unbounded and finite? Do they really know?
Keep at it.
Ralph Hertle
Sanny <softtanks@hotmail.com>
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| User: "Jeckyl" |
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| Title: Re: Gravitons Speed and other Properties? |
06 Jan 2008 02:03:22 AM |
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"Ralph Hertle" <zxcvzxcv3@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:478088A7.7060103@verizon.net...
Sanny <softtanks@hotmail.com>
Sanny wrote:
Gravitons are massless particles that are exchanged by mass to produce
gravity.
One of my friend told me there speed can be >c as well as <c.
So it can be faster than light as well as slower than light. How can
one measure the speed of a graviton?
a - we don't know if gravitons (as such) actually exist
b - most theories predict the speed of gravity would be c
c - none of the experiments for the speed of gravity have shown a speed
greater than c AFAIK .. so c still looks the most likely speed.
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: Gravitons Speed and other Properties? |
07 Jan 2008 11:50:56 AM |
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Sanny wrote:
Gravitons are massless particles that are exchanged by mass to produce
gravity.
[snip]
No quantized gravitation. No gravitons as spin-2 tensor boson force
propagators,
http://arXiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0409089
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
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| User: "Juan R." |
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| Title: Re: Gravitons Speed and other Properties? |
08 Jan 2008 08:28:39 AM |
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Uncle Al wrote {47826680.5388B6A4@hate.spam.net} on Mon, 07 Jan 2008
09:50:56 -0800:
Sanny wrote:
Gravitons are massless particles that are exchanged by mass to produce
gravity.
[snip]
No quantized gravitation. No gravitons as spin-2 tensor boson force
propagators,
http://arXiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0409089
The preprint only shows that iterating a flat field theory one does
not
get full geometrical GR.
But this was already known before. See for instance section 3.3 on
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9912003
The preprint you cite neither proves that a field theory on flat
spacetime
is inadequate for describing gravitation, see
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0509105
nor it proves that one cannot built a *nonlinear* field representation
of
general relativity.
As stated in Wald textbook, we can built a field representation of GR,
but then the concept of "spin-2" is not well-defined due to nonlinear
interaction of the field.
Remember that quantum field theory is essentially a theory of free
fields, therefore you cannot rigorously define the properties of the
field when is interacting.
About your "No quantized gravitation", just to remark that gravitation
already was quantized, of course Newtonian gravity. The resulting
Schr=F6dinger-Newton equation is on use on labs.
Of course, general relativity continues without consistent
quantization...
--
I follow http://canonicalscience.com/guidelines.txt
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| User: "Eric Gisse" |
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| Title: Re: Gravitons Speed and other Properties? |
08 Jan 2008 09:12:37 AM |
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On Jan 8, 5:28 am, "Juan R." <juanrgonzal...@canonicalscience.com>
wrote:
Uncle Al wrote {47826680.5388B...@hate.spam.net} on Mon, 07 Jan 2008
09:50:56 -0800:
Sanny wrote:
Gravitons are massless particles that are exchanged by mass to produce
gravity.
[snip]
No quantized gravitation. No gravitons as spin-2 tensor boson force
propagators,
http://arXiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0409089
The preprint only shows that iterating a flat field theory one does
not
get full geometrical GR.
But this was already known before. See for instance section 3.3 on
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9912003
The preprint you cite neither proves that a field theory on flat
spacetime
is inadequate for describing gravitation, see
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0509105
Field theories of what on flat spacetime? None of them adequately
cover it.
Scalar and vector fields aren't good enough. A tensor field, at best,
gets you the weak field of GR.
nor it proves that one cannot built a *nonlinear* field representation
of
general relativity.
Nobody has done it yet, and not for lack of trying.
[...]
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| User: "Dr.Hal0nf1r£$" |
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| Title: Re: Gravitons Speed and other Properties? |
06 Jan 2008 02:26:50 AM |
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Sanny wrote:
Gravitons are massless particles that are exchanged by mass to produce
gravity.
I always understood that the greater a particle's energy the greater its
mass; therefore for even a virtual perticle such as a graviton to have zero
mass would mean that it would have zero energy; when quite obviously it
doesn't have zero energy. I also understood that a graviton was a virtual
product of the wave/particle theory of quantum mechanics; a hypothetical
parody of a transfer of force between two or more collective macro-events
exhibiting the collective mass of all of their relevant particles.
One of my friend told me there speed can be >c as well as <c.
As far as relativity is concerned; the speed of light is the boundary of
velocity of matter as we know it; however under exceptional circumstances it
appears theorhetically possible that it can be exceeded. As for gravitons
exceeding c I must say that I am unaware of any theorhetical postualtions
thereof under normal circumstances.
So it can be faster than light as well as slower than light. How can
one measure the speed of a graviton?
Since a graviton is a virtual particle it is under quantum law which
dictates that any attempt to discover an individual particle's position will
disturb any measurement of its velocity and vice-versa; therefore from this
it appears impossible to do so with any degree of accuracy.
If Two masses are 1 lightyear apart how much time it will take for
Gravitons to reach from one Mass to Another?
By relativity logic a minimum of 1 year.
The Mass of Graviton is 0 as well as the Charge is 0. So how will you
track the Gravitons? And further Does it interact with other
particles? What happens when it collides with Photons or any other
particle.
If it has no mass then it will have no effect in any collision with another
particle.
I heard it has 2 Spin.
Electrons has +/- 1/2 spin So they revolve in one direction or
opposite direction. What is the meaning of having 2 SPIN? Does it
Spins at Twice the Speed of Electron and in what direction.
Read "A brief History of Time" by Prof. Stephen Hawking.
Are these just Theoritical to satisfy the Mathematics or these
Gravitons are seen in real Experiments.
As I mentioned previously; a graviton is a hypothetical particle; a virtual
product of quantum science used to help explain the interaction of two
bodies in accordance with the wave/particle duality theory as well as in
seeking the Grand Unified Theory mathematically linking relativity with
quantum mechanics and resulting in an understanding of all things.
Since it has no mass and no charge. Does it occupy any space/ Volume?
Is it Rigid or Liquid type? Or is it a Wave?
It's both a wave and a particle; but theorheticlly so in either case.
Is there any Experimental Proof that Gravitons Exists Just like Quarks
etc.Or Is it made up of Quarks? Like all other Elementory Particles?
No. Quarks have mass and their interaction with one another is verifiable by
observation. Gravitons are still only a postulative approach to solving a
theorhetical equation.
Having just posted this lot I have to admit that my understanding may be
anything up to fifteen years old, and may well also be behind the times.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
I'd stick to chess I think. : Alpha meson to D3; Check.
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| User: "Jeckyl" |
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| Title: Re: Gravitons Speed and other Properties? |
06 Jan 2008 04:00:56 AM |
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"Dr.Hal0nf1r£$" <femail@nospam.kustomkomputa.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:QbWdnbHEC5dXDR3anZ2dnUVZ8vydnZ2d@bt.com...
Sanny wrote:
Gravitons are massless particles that are exchanged by mass to produce
gravity.
I always understood that the greater a particle's energy the greater its
mass;
No .. "mass" means "rest mass" .. for example, a photon has no mass. A
particle with no mass can have momentum, but only when it travels at c ..
and only a particle with no mass *can* travel at c. There is a term
sometimes used called 'reativistic mass', but that is not a terribly useful
term .. however, it does (for something with mass) tend to infinity as the
speed of the object approaches c
[snip]
One of my friend told me there speed can be >c as well as <c.
As far as relativity is concerned; the speed of light is the boundary of
velocity of matter as we know it;
Not exactly .. it is a limit for any exchange of information or object etc.
For things with mass, it is a limit the cannot be reached (only approached)
for objects with no mass, it is the speed they must travel at.
however under exceptional circumstances it
appears theorhetically possible that it can be exceeded.
No .. not in SR at least.
As for gravitons
exceeding c I must say that I am unaware of any theorhetical postualtions
thereof under normal circumstances.
AFAIK, the theories suggest that it travels at c .. as you could use gravity
to exchange information.
So it can be faster than light as well as slower than light. How can
one measure the speed of a graviton?
Since a graviton is a virtual particle it is under quantum law which
dictates that any attempt to discover an individual particle's position
will
disturb any measurement of its velocity and vice-versa; therefore from
this
it appears impossible to do so with any degree of accuracy.
If Two masses are 1 lightyear apart how much time it will take for
Gravitons to reach from one Mass to Another?
By relativity logic a minimum of 1 year.
Yeup
The Mass of Graviton is 0 as well as the Charge is 0. So how will you
track the Gravitons? And further Does it interact with other
particles? What happens when it collides with Photons or any other
particle.
If it has no mass then it will have no effect in any collision with
another
particle.
Unless it has a velocity of c .. then it *can* have momentum.
[snip rest .. nothing really further to comment on]
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| User: "The TimeLord" |
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| Title: Re: Gravitons Speed and other Properties? |
07 Jan 2008 11:56:27 PM |
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Dr.Hal0nf1r£$ wrote in sci.physics.relativity:
Sanny wrote:
Gravitons are massless particles that are exchanged by mass to produce
gravity.
I always understood that the greater a particle's energy the greater its
mass; therefore for even a virtual perticle such as a graviton to have zero
Not necessarily. The energy of a photon is E=hf. The energy of a
particle that has mass is E=gamma*mc^2, where gamma=1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2).
The photon has no mass. From this you can see that mass alone is not
necessarily indicative of energy.
mass would mean that it would have zero energy; when quite obviously it
No. It would have energy in spite of not having mass. The energy would
be the energy of the gravitational force.
[...]
One of my friend told me there speed can be >c as well as <c.
As far as relativity is concerned; the speed of light is the boundary of
velocity of matter as we know it; however under exceptional circumstances it
Right, since any mass going faster than the speed of light would
require more energy than is available in the universe.
appears theorhetically possible that it can be exceeded. As for gravitons
Very exceptional circumstances like the index of refraction of the
space differing from unity.
[...]
The Mass of Graviton is 0 as well as the Charge is 0. So how will you
track the Gravitons? And further Does it interact with other
particles? What happens when it collides with Photons or any other
particle.
If it has no mass then it will have no effect in any collision with another
particle.
I heard it has 2 Spin.
True, if it exists. However, the best evidence so far is that it
doesn't exist.
Electrons has +/- 1/2 spin So they revolve in one direction or
opposite direction. What is the meaning of having 2 SPIN? Does it
Spins at Twice the Speed of Electron and in what direction.
Read "A brief History of Time" by Prof. Stephen Hawking.
Not sure how that would answer the question. What the meaning of
"spin" in QM is, is the following. If spin is n then the actual
angular momentum is n*h/(2*pi). So the angular momentum of an electron
relative to its own orbit is always h/(4*pi). The graviton, if it
existed would have an angular momentum of h/pi.
[...]
--
// The TimeLord says:
// Pogo 2.0 = We have met the aliens, and they are us!
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| User: "Tom Roberts" |
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| Title: Re: Gravitons Speed and other Properties? |
06 Jan 2008 02:24:55 PM |
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Dr.Hal0nf1r£$ wrote:
I always understood that the greater a particle's energy the greater its
mass;
No. The mass of an object is the norm of its 4-momentum. The energy of
an object IN A GIVEN INERTIAL FRAME is the time component of its
4-momentum projected onto that frame. "energy" makes no sense unless one
specifies a locally-inertial frame in which it is measured.
There can be no direct relationship between an object's energy (as
above) and its mass, as the former depends on frame and the latter does not.
In the frame of the target, a bullet has a large kinetic
energy; in its rest frame it has none. This frame dependence
is inherent.
As far as relativity is concerned; the speed of light is the boundary of
velocity of matter as we know it; [...]
Hmmm. Quantum objects need not be so constrained, as long as the
relevant expectation values are constrained.
BTW this is true even for massive objects....
I heard it has 2 Spin.
Electrons has +/- 1/2 spin So they revolve in one direction or
opposite direction. What is the meaning of having 2 SPIN? Does it
Spins at Twice the Speed of Electron and in what direction.
Hmmm. The spin of an elementary particle determines which
representation(s) of the Lorentz group are used to model it. The word
"spin" is used in a very limited, technical sense, and does not describe
the literal rotation of a classical object. But the spin of a particle
does couple to angular momentum, so the word is not completely arbitrary....
Tom Roberts
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| User: "Tom Roberts" |
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| Title: Re: Gravitons Speed and other Properties? |
06 Jan 2008 02:15:30 PM |
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Sanny wrote:
Gravitons are massless particles that are exchanged by mass to produce
gravity.
One of my friend told me there speed can be >c as well as <c.
So it can be faster than light as well as slower than light. How can
one measure the speed of a graviton?
Gravitons are putatively the gauge bosons of some as-yet-unknown theory
of quantum gravity. As quantum objects they cannot be identified
uniquely, and one cannot really discuss "the speed of a graviton"
because the "a" does not apply.
By analogy to QED, one might say that between a given pair of points
(events) in spacetime, gravitons would take all possible paths, and thus
travel at all possible speeds. But this is speaking rather loosely
because it ignores the intrinsic quantum nature of such objects.
To discuss gravitons accurately, one should restrict oneself to
properties which are good quantum numbers. By analogy to photons, these
are their mass (zero) and their spin (2). One can also discuss their
interactions, as long as one does so in a frame-invariant way, but this
is not accurately known, as we don't yet have a theory containing
gravitons; all we have are guesses.
Tom Roberts
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