| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Potte" |
| Date: |
01 Apr 2005 01:46:00 AM |
| Object: |
H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
Hydrogen and Oxygen are gases. When you combine 2 oxygen and
1 hydrogen. Liquid water comes out. How could this be?? I know
one has extra electron and one a missing electron. What I'm asking is,
why does liquid water come out from the joining of two gases?
What is the branch of chemistry that predict what new property will
be created by the joining of two unrelated elements?? Is there a
principle or formula available wherein adding two gases can produce h20
or water (why water and not something solid)??
A related question. Atomic number 80 is mercury, atomic number
79 is gold. How come a mere change of one proton is enough to
create such a huge difference in color, properties, etc. of the
elements?? Supposed we only have 79 elements. Is there a formula
in physics or chemistry where one could predict that adding another
proton/neutron would turn gold into mercury??
Potte
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| User: "Greysky" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
01 Apr 2005 08:30:43 AM |
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"Potte" <photonmanual@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1112341560.036931.302650@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
A related question. Atomic number 80 is mercury, atomic number
79 is gold. How come a mere change of one proton is enough to
create such a huge difference in color, properties, etc. of the
elements?? Supposed we only have 79 elements. Is there a formula
in physics or chemistry where one could predict that adding another
proton/neutron would turn gold into mercury??
No, but there is a easy (read low tech) way to turn Mercury into Gold. Fill
up a flask jar with some Mercury. Drop in some Uranium - the more refined
the better. Seal up the lid, but not so tight that the Hydrogen gas you are
going to make can't escape from it. Put it on a high shelf in the garage.
Leave alone for a time...a long time. When your grandchildren are cleaning
out the garage after their dad dies of old age, they will come across the
jar Gramps (you ), long dead, had put there. When they look inside, they
will find some Uranium pellets on the bottom of the jar, a lot of Mercury
filling the jar, and some Gold flakes floating on top of the Mercury. It
will be produced when the Uranium knocks out a proton from the Mercury, and
the Gold being lighter than Mercury will float on top of it.
Congratulations, you have done the impossible - achieved the dreams of many
men throughout the ages, by turning Mercury into Gold!
Greysky
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| User: "bz" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
01 Apr 2005 05:12:03 PM |
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"Greysky" <greyskynospam@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:nWc3e.5511$FN4.5305@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com:
"Potte" <photonmanual@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1112341560.036931.302650@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
A related question. Atomic number 80 is mercury, atomic number
79 is gold. How come a mere change of one proton is enough to
create such a huge difference in color, properties, etc. of the
elements?? Supposed we only have 79 elements. Is there a formula
in physics or chemistry where one could predict that adding another
proton/neutron would turn gold into mercury??
No, but there is a easy (read low tech) way to turn Mercury into Gold.
Fill up a flask jar with some Mercury. Drop in some Uranium - the more
refined the better. Seal up the lid, but not so tight that the Hydrogen
gas you are going to make can't escape from it. Put it on a high shelf
in the garage. Leave alone for a time...a long time. When your
grandchildren are cleaning out the garage after their dad dies of old
age, they will come across the jar Gramps (you ), long dead, had put
there. When they look inside, they will find some Uranium pellets on the
bottom of the jar, a lot of Mercury filling the jar, and some Gold
flakes floating on top of the Mercury. It will be produced when the
Uranium knocks out a proton from the Mercury, and the Gold being lighter
than Mercury will float on top of it. Congratulations, you have done the
impossible - achieved the dreams of many men throughout the ages, by
turning Mercury into Gold!
A major problems with your method:
Gold is soluble in mercury. So is silver.
So, you won't find any gold floating on the mercury, and if you drop your
gold wedding ring in the jar, you won't find it either.
[of course, you can distill off the mercury and recover your gold, but
mercury vapor is VERY deadly.]
--
bz
please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.
bz+sp@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
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| User: "bz" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
01 Apr 2005 08:02:23 AM |
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"Potte" <photonmanual@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1112341560.036931.302650
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Hydrogen and Oxygen are gases. When you combine 2 oxygen and
1 hydrogen. Liquid water comes out.
You just made HO2, which, as far as I know, is NOT a common chemical that you
find around the house. In fact, it would be VERY unstable. I would NOT like
the task of trying to make it. H2O2 is as close as you can come, easily. And
that stuff explodes.
I think you mean two hydrogen and one oxygen.
--
bz
please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.
bz+sp@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
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| User: "The Ghost In The Machine" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
01 Apr 2005 12:00:12 PM |
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In sci.physics, Potte
<photonmanual@yahoo.com>
wrote
on 31 Mar 2005 23:46:00 -0800
<1112341560.036931.302650@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>:
Hydrogen and Oxygen are gases.
More or less at room temperature and 100 kPa pressure,
yes. Things get interesting at very hot tepmeratures
(plasma) or very cold temperatures (liquid air, solid air,
Bose-Einstein condensates).
When you combine 2 oxygen and
1 hydrogen. Liquid water comes out.
Plus 1 1/2 moles of oxygen, as water is H2O, not HO2. (I'm
assuming you meant 2 moles oxygen and 1 mole hydrogen here.
Of course a mole is 6.022*10^23 atoms, so one can also postulate
1 1/2 oxygen molecules -- 3 oxygen atoms -- here.)
How could this be??
I'm not sure how to answer that beyond pointing one to a
discussion on bond enthalpy and/or a chemistry text.
Briefly, however, the two O-H bonds have less energy
(or more negative energy) than the O=O bond and the
two H-H bonds. In short, the reaction is exothermic
(gives off heat). The main issue is activation energy,
which I'm not sure how to characterize properly, though
one can naively assume that the activation energy is at
least the amount of energy needed to break the O=O bond
or the H-H bond in the reactants.
I know
one has extra electron and one a missing electron.
Actually, no. The issue here is covalent bonding.
What I'm asking is,
why does liquid water come out from the joining of two gases?
At standard temperature and pressure, you mean. A good question.
I'd frankly have to research it. Something along the lines of
various issues regarding molecule-molecule attraction would be
my guess, and water complicates the issue by having an electric
dipole moment (one can think of it as being like a tiny charged
rod, with one end positive and the other negative).
What is the branch of chemistry that predict what new property will
be created by the joining of two unrelated elements?? Is there a
principle or formula available wherein adding two gases can produce h20
or water (why water and not something solid)??
Bond enthalpy might help in predicting whether a reaction occurs.
That's about all I know about it. As for water/ice/vapor, that's
a phase issue (liquid/solid/gas). I don't know how to calculate
the phase of an arbitrary molecule given standard temperature and
pressure.
A related question. Atomic number 80 is mercury, atomic number
79 is gold. How come a mere change of one proton is enough to
create such a huge difference in color, properties, etc. of the
elements??
This gets into the quantum mechanics realm, but is also related
to chemistry -- specifically, electron orbitals, which are
well predicted by QM theory. Briefly, gold has the electron
configuration [Xe].4f14.5d10.6s1; mercury [Xe].4f14.5d10.6s2 .
For its part Xe = xenon is a noble gas, with an electron
configuration of 1s2.2s2.2p6.3s2.3p6.4s2.3d10.4p6.5s2.4f10.5ps.
(The apparent misordering is intentional. The energy level of
a 3d electron is slightly higher than that of a 4s. I can't
say why, though.)
Supposed we only have 79 elements. Is there a formula
in physics or chemistry where one could predict that adding another
proton/neutron would turn gold into mercury??
Probably not, at this point, though since we know of mercury and
the number of protons and neutrons in its nucleus this is a
rather moot question anyway. :-)
Potte
--
#191,
It's still legal to go .sigless.
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| User: "Potte" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
01 Apr 2005 03:24:04 PM |
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Guys,
Pls. give examples of elements that are "transformed" to their
neighboring
elements. For example. In fusing hydrogen, you get helium. I'd like
a more dramatic example where fusing other elements can result in the
output of elements of totally different physical characteristic. What
else
is there beside this hydrogen fusing turning into helium thing. I'd
like to
see proof that merely adding one proton, neutron and electron to say
gold can really turn it into mercury. I'd like to see proof that the
color
and properties of mercury for example and elements in generals are
really
from the electron configuration.
Thanks.
P
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
01 Apr 2005 08:06:10 PM |
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On 1 Apr 2005 13:24:04 -0800, "Potte" <photonmanual@yahoo.com> wrote:
Guys,
Pls. give examples of elements that are "transformed" to their
neighboring
elements. For example. In fusing hydrogen, you get helium. I'd like
a more dramatic example where fusing other elements can result in the
output of elements of totally different physical characteristic.
Slow down. You are really missing the point.
There are about 92 "natural" chemical elements. They ALL have distinct
physical properties. Given any two samples of pure elements, measuring
simple physical properties is sufficient to identify them.
All of the natural elements are made by fusion (and so are all the
manmade elements).
Fusion produces elements with distinct physical properties.
Case closed.
Now, back to your original question... H2 + O2 --> water (H2O). H2,
O2, and H2O are different chemical substances. There is no reason to
suggest that there should be any similarity in physical properties.
Yes, two are normally gases and one a liquid, but so what? They are
different. To suggest that one can predict any physical property of a
product from how it was made is totally baseless. That is true for
nuclear reactions above and is true for chemical reactions in this
case.
Another wonderful example is ordinary table salt, a white solid,
harmless and even essential -- made by reacting a dangerously reactive
soft solid with a green poisonous gas.
bob
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| User: "David Cross" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
02 Apr 2005 01:50:39 AM |
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On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 18:06:10 -0800, Bob <bbx107@excite.com> wrote:
On 1 Apr 2005 13:24:04 -0800, "Potte" <photonmanual@yahoo.com> wrote:
Guys,
Pls. give examples of elements that are "transformed" to their
neighboring
elements. For example. In fusing hydrogen, you get helium. I'd like
a more dramatic example where fusing other elements can result in the
output of elements of totally different physical characteristic.
Slow down. You are really missing the point.
There are about 92 "natural" chemical elements. They ALL have distinct
physical properties. Given any two samples of pure elements, measuring
simple physical properties is sufficient to identify them.
All of the natural elements are made by fusion (and so are all the
manmade elements).
Fusion produces elements with distinct physical properties.
Nitpick: Past iron, neutron-capture reactions followed by beta decays are the
hypothesized process for producing all elements up to uranium. (see the s and
r processes in an astrophysics text)
---
David Cross
dcross1 AT shaw DOT ca
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
02 Apr 2005 11:38:10 AM |
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On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 23:50:39 -0800, David Cross
<spamdenied@nospam.net> wrote:
On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 18:06:10 -0800, Bob <bbx107@excite.com> wrote:
On 1 Apr 2005 13:24:04 -0800, "Potte" <photonmanual@yahoo.com> wrote:
Guys,
Pls. give examples of elements that are "transformed" to their
neighboring
elements. For example. In fusing hydrogen, you get helium. I'd like
a more dramatic example where fusing other elements can result in the
output of elements of totally different physical characteristic.
Slow down. You are really missing the point.
There are about 92 "natural" chemical elements. They ALL have distinct
physical properties. Given any two samples of pure elements, measuring
simple physical properties is sufficient to identify them.
All of the natural elements are made by fusion (and so are all the
manmade elements).
Fusion produces elements with distinct physical properties.
Nitpick: Past iron, neutron-capture reactions followed by beta decays are the
hypothesized process for producing all elements up to uranium. (see the s and
r processes in an astrophysics text)
Yes, thanks.
The idea is the same: atoms of high Z are made from atoms of lower Z.
And Z per se does not in any simple way lead to prediction of physical
properties.
bob
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| User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
03 Apr 2005 07:38:27 AM |
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Potte wrote:
Guys,
Pls. give examples of elements that are "transformed" to their
neighboring
elements. For example. In fusing hydrogen, you get helium. I'd like
a more dramatic example where fusing other elements can result in the
output of elements of totally different physical characteristic.
What else is there beside this hydrogen fusing turning into helium
thing.
3 He ----> C.
Standard reaction happening in (old, big, red) stars.
I'd like to
see proof that merely adding one proton, neutron and electron to say
gold can really turn it into mercury.
Why isn't it proof enough that mercury has one proton and one
electron more than gold? (the neutrons are rather irrelevant here)
I'd like to see proof that the color
and properties of mercury for example and elements in generals are
really from the electron configuration.
Why isn't it proof enough for you that these properties can be actually
calculated (using lots of computational power) if one knows the
number of protons and electrons?
Bye,
Bjoern
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
01 Apr 2005 02:30:12 PM |
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Potte wrote:
Hydrogen and Oxygen are gases. When you combine 2 oxygen and
1 hydrogen. Liquid water comes out. How could this be??
Chemistry.
Tungsten boils at 5660 C, WF6 boils at 17 C. So? Carbon boils at
4000 C, CF4 boils at -128 C. So? Xenon boils at -107 C, XeF6 boils
at +76 C. So?
I know
one has extra electron and one a missing electron. What I'm asking is,
why does liquid water come out from the joining of two gases?
What is the branch of chemistry that predict what new property will
be created by the joining of two unrelated elements?? Is there a
principle or formula available wherein adding two gases can produce h20
or water (why water and not something solid)??
A related question. Atomic number 80 is mercury, atomic number
79 is gold. How come a mere change of one proton is enough to
create such a huge difference in color, properties, etc. of the
elements?? Supposed we only have 79 elements. Is there a formula
in physics or chemistry where one could predict that adding another
proton/neutron would turn gold into mercury??
Relativistically-corrected quantum mechanics. None of this is hot
stuff anymore. Hasn't been for years.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
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| User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
01 Apr 2005 02:35:47 AM |
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Potte wrote:
Hydrogen and Oxygen are gases. When you combine 2 oxygen and
1 hydrogen. Liquid water comes out. How could this be??
Hydrogen molecules and oxygen molecules are not polar, so there are
only (weak!) van-der-Waals forces between them. OTOH, water molecules
are polar, so there are much stronger forces between them.
Does that help?
I know one has extra electron and one a missing electron.
Huh? What exactly do you mean with "one" in the two cases?
What I'm asking is,
why does liquid water come out from the joining of two gases?
What is the branch of chemistry that predict what new property will
be created by the joining of two unrelated elements??
Combine electrostatics and quantum mechanics.
Is there a
principle or formula available wherein adding two gases can produce h20
or water (why water and not something solid)??
Because the forces between the molecules are not *that* strong.
But, hint: if you combine the two gases at temperatures below 0°C
(and pay attention that even after the energy release of the chemical
reaction, the temperature is still below that), you *will* get a
solid: ice.
A related question. Atomic number 80 is mercury, atomic number
79 is gold. How come a mere change of one proton is enough to
create such a huge difference in color, properties, etc. of the
elements??
The properties of an element are not (directly) determined by the
number of protons in the nuclei. Rather, they depend on the number
of electron, especially valence electrons. And adding one electron
can change the properties of an element quite drastically because
the electrons are "sorted" into a shell structure (or actually
in orbitals). Read up on this.
Supposed we only have 79 elements. Is there a formula
in physics or chemistry where one could predict that adding another
proton/neutron would turn gold into mercury??
No direct formula. But with a lot of computational power, one could
predict what happens when one adds a proton in the nucleus, and, more
importantly, also an electron.
IIRC, physicists had already made such predictions for the properties
of then not-yet discovered elements, and the predictions turned out to
be true.
Bye,
Bjoern
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| User: "Potte" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
01 Apr 2005 03:49:52 AM |
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So it's a matter of adding or subtracting
electrons primarily that can change the entire
properties of elements?!
Well. How come its so difficult to change
mercury (atomic no. 80) to gold (atomic
no. 79)? One can simply remove the
electron from the mercury using very
strong magnetic field or kinda.. at least
temporarily since it is difficult to remove
the proton from mercury.
P
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| User: "Wilco Oelen" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
01 Apr 2005 07:53:33 AM |
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Potte wrote:
So it's a matter of adding or subtracting
electrons primarily that can change the entire
properties of elements?!
Well. How come its so difficult to change
mercury (atomic no. 80) to gold (atomic
no. 79)? One can simply remove the
electron from the mercury using very
strong magnetic field or kinda.. at least
temporarily since it is difficult to remove
the proton from mercury.
P
When you remove an electron from the mercury, you get a charged
particle, denoted as Hg+. What do you think what happens if you put a
lot of Hg+ particles in a small volume? In practice this cannot be
done, due to the repelling electrostatic force.
Besides that, the excess positive charge has a large influence on the
properties of the total system. I.e. a neutral Au atom is very
different from a charged Hg+ particle, even if the repelling force is
not taken into account.
In fact, in chemistry, many compounds consist of charged particles, but
then they are accompanied with other charged particles, sich that the
total charge equals zero. An example is table salt, which consists of
Na+ particles and Cl- particles, nicely arranged in a crystal lattice
at a 1 : 1 ratio. The properties of these Na+ particles and Cl-
particles are totally different from the properties of single Na-atoms
and Cl-atoms, but the properties also differ quite a lot from the
neightbouring noble gasses.
Hope this makes things somewhat more clear,
Wilco
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| User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
03 Apr 2005 07:32:28 AM |
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Potte wrote:
So it's a matter of adding or subtracting
electrons primarily that can change the entire
properties of elements?!
Electrons *and* protons. If you add only electrons, you'll
gets ions. You also need new protons to make the atom neutral.
But the chemical properties are mainly determined by the electrons.
[snip]
Bye,
Bjoern
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
01 Apr 2005 04:45:54 AM |
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don't mix up physical properties and chemical ones...
protons aren't electrons...
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| User: "Angelo" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
01 Apr 2005 05:03:37 AM |
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Potte wrote:
Hydrogen and Oxygen are gases. When you combine 2 oxygen and
1 hydrogen. Liquid water comes out. How could this be??
If you had one H atom and two O atoms, you won't
get one H2O molecule. If you had 'n' H atoms and '2n'
O atoms, and n is equal or greater than 2, you'll get
n/2 H2O molecules, plus 3n/2 O atoms, which would
combine to yield 3n/4 O2 molecules (if n is equal
or greater than 4). However, as hopefully you can
see now, the right H:O combination ratio is 2:1,
and not 1:2. When you attempt this in the real world,
you have an 'n' that is in the order of magnitude of
ca. 10^21 -- 10^25, depending on the actual set up
conditions. Moreover, unless you take specific care,
you get gaseous H2O, not liquid, due to the huge energy
release entailed by that reaction.
In addition, in a chemical reaction, which is a
*transformation*, properties (physical and chemical)
of reactant(s) and product(s) are *not conserved*;
only atoms (and electric charge, when involved) are
conserved; and just consider that the properties
of H are *not* the same as those of (even) H2.
For the rest you've got a thorough answer from Bjoern.
[snip]
Potte
Best regards,
Angelo
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| User: "++owen++" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
04 Apr 2005 07:07:20 PM |
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Angelo wrote:
Potte wrote:
Hydrogen and Oxygen are gases. When you combine 2 oxygen and
1 hydrogen. Liquid water comes out. How could this be??
snip
In addition, in a chemical reaction, which is a
*transformation*, properties (physical and chemical)
of reactant(s) and product(s) are *not conserved*;
only atoms (and electric charge, when involved) are
conserved; and just consider that the properties
of H are *not* the same as those of (even) H2.
For the rest you've got a thorough answer from Bjoern.
[snip]
Best regards,
Angelo
==========================================================
Two gases making a liquid???? I guess that is why many of us became
chemists. We wanted to understand how such an unusual thing could happen.
And, after studying chemistry for 50 years (God help me), the essential
mystery of a chemical transformation still exicites me.
John
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| User: "Quantum Mirror" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
01 Apr 2005 07:48:15 AM |
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Potte wrote:
Hydrogen and Oxygen are gases. When you combine 2 oxygen and
1 hydrogen. Liquid water comes out. How could this be?? I know
one has extra electron and one a missing electron. What I'm asking
is,
why does liquid water come out from the joining of two gases?
What is the branch of chemistry that predict what new property will
be created by the joining of two unrelated elements?? Is there a
principle or formula available wherein adding two gases can produce
h20
or water (why water and not something solid)??
What you are talking about is the most basic of chemistry and physics.
The two gases are elemental atoms. They combine through exchange and
sharing of electrons in their shells. Then they become molecules. This
is responsible for the wide diversity of everything around you
including yourself. The temperature is what makes it Liquid gas or
solid.
A related question. Atomic number 80 is mercury, atomic number
79 is gold. How come a mere change of one proton is enough to
create such a huge difference in color, properties, etc. of the
elements?? Supposed we only have 79 elements. Is there a formula
in physics or chemistry where one could predict that adding another
proton/neutron would turn gold into mercury??
Potte
There is more difference than one proton. There are neutrons and
electrons. you could turn atoms into heaver atoms with super amounts of
heat, pressure and time but the outcome would not be predictable and
the products would be very radioactive. The elements you see around you
were produced in stars and have been around long enough for them to
lose their radioactivity.
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: H+20 = Water (and Gold mystery) |
01 Apr 2005 03:42:58 PM |
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Potte wrote:
[snip]
A related question. Atomic number 80 is mercury, atomic number
79 is gold. How come a mere change of one proton is enough to
create such a huge difference in color, properties, etc. of the
elements?? Supposed we only have 79 elements. Is there a formula
in physics or chemistry where one could predict that adding another
proton/neutron would turn gold into mercury??
Because elements that are adjacent horizontally on the periodic table
are NOT expected to be similar in (chemical) properties. Elements that
are adjacent *vertically* on the periodic table are expected to be
similar in chemical properties. That's part of why it's called the
periodic table.
Sodium and potassium, for example, are very similar. So are neon and
argon.
PD
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