| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"fotoobscura" |
| Date: |
22 Sep 2005 09:36:58 AM |
| Object: |
Helium + Balloons + descent question. |
Hi.
I am wondering if there is a formula or way to determine:
a) how much helium in volume is in a balloon after filling it.
b) how high the balloon can rise before it begins to deflate due to
slow leaking and altitude
c) how long it would take for the balloon to return to the ground
deflated (roughly).
My goal? To determine if I launch a helium balloon in the air with a
certain mass attached to it how long will it take to return to the
ground.
Thanks!
.
|
|
| User: "Uncle Al" |
|
| Title: Re: Helium + Balloons + descent question. |
22 Sep 2005 02:14:31 PM |
|
|
fotoobscura wrote:
Hi.
I am wondering if there is a formula or way to determine:
a) how much helium in volume is in a balloon after filling it.
Volume of sphere, purity of helium, temperature, pressure, skin
tension.
b) how high the balloon can rise before it begins to deflate due to
slow leaking and altitude
Illucid.
c) how long it would take for the balloon to return to the ground
deflated (roughly).
Wanna ride Stokes theorem, maybe with a ballistic coefficient for a
flapping popped balloon?
My goal? To determine if I launch a helium balloon in the air with a
certain mass attached to it how long will it take to return to the
ground deflated (roughly).
You get one gram of boyancy/liter of helium near enough. Leave the
appropriate amount of expansion room within the envelope (CRC
Handbook, "US Standard Atmosphere") If you use a PET film balloon or
a rubber balloon with Hi-Float or Ultra-Hi-Float,
http://www.hi-float.com/
it will stay aloft for a couple of weeks. Be clever: Include a
disposable camera with your message. Use a Tyvek envelope so it is
survivable and water-resistant without being air-tight. The FAA
thinks poorly of lofting balloons or kites near an airport. Don't get
caught. Given solar heating, the obvious best launch time is at
sunset.
Can you hook into the jet stream? Look at your local weather page.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
.
|
|
|
| User: "fotoobscura" |
|
| Title: Re: Helium + Balloons + descent question. |
22 Sep 2005 02:40:51 PM |
|
|
Excellent. Thanks.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Puppet_Sock" |
|
| Title: Re: Helium + Balloons + descent question. |
22 Sep 2005 02:47:56 PM |
|
|
fotoobscura wrote:
I am wondering if there is a formula or way to determine:
a) how much helium in volume is in a balloon after filling it.
Depends on the shape of the balloon.
b) how high the balloon can rise before it begins to deflate due to
slow leaking and altitude
c) how long it would take for the balloon to return to the ground
deflated (roughly).
My goal? To determine if I launch a helium balloon in the air with a
certain mass attached to it how long will it take to return to the
ground.
This will depend, in a fairly complicated and difficult to
calculate fashion, on the details of the material of the
balloon. Diffferent materials leak Helium at different rates,
and differently at different temperature and pressure.
It will also depend to some extent on the details of size
and shape of your balloon, and possibly on the amount of
weight hanging from the balloon. A larger balloon has
more volume to surface area, so will leak differently
from a smaller balloon.
You should probably do some simple tests. Get a cheapo
transmitter and let go a few balloons while you monitor.
If you have some extra sophistication you can get some
kind of altitude monitoring, either through barometric
pressure or a GPS. Or both. You might be able to get some
data simply by watching the balloon rise, by using a
telescope. Or maybe two scopes to triangulate.
Also, you could try it with tethered balloons at various
heights. Reel out, say, 1000 feet of string and see how
long it keeps tension on the string. If you have a handy
mountain, you could try it at the base of the mountain,
then go up the mountain and retry.
Socks
.
|
|
|
| User: "Uncle Al" |
|
| Title: Re: Helium + Balloons + descent question. |
22 Sep 2005 07:11:17 PM |
|
|
Puppet_Sock wrote:
fotoobscura wrote:
I am wondering if there is a formula or way to determine:
a) how much helium in volume is in a balloon after filling it.
Depends on the shape of the balloon.
b) how high the balloon can rise before it begins to deflate due to
slow leaking and altitude
c) how long it would take for the balloon to return to the ground
deflated (roughly).
My goal? To determine if I launch a helium balloon in the air with a
certain mass attached to it how long will it take to return to the
ground.
This will depend, in a fairly complicated and difficult to
calculate fashion, on the details of the material of the
balloon. Diffferent materials leak Helium at different rates,
and differently at different temperature and pressure.
It will also depend to some extent on the details of size
and shape of your balloon, and possibly on the amount of
weight hanging from the balloon. A larger balloon has
more volume to surface area, so will leak differently
from a smaller balloon.
You should probably do some simple tests. Get a cheapo
transmitter and let go a few balloons while you monitor.
If you have some extra sophistication you can get some
kind of altitude monitoring, either through barometric
pressure or a GPS. Or both. You might be able to get some
data simply by watching the balloon rise, by using a
telescope. Or maybe two scopes to triangulate.
Also, you could try it with tethered balloons at various
heights. Reel out, say, 1000 feet of string and see how
long it keeps tension on the string. If you have a handy
mountain, you could try it at the base of the mountain,
then go up the mountain and retry.
Socks
KISS. If you have an assembly line that requires even one PhD, you
don't have an assembly line. Real world assembly lines are manned by
illegal immigrants and overseen by a foreman who knows what he is
doing because he has sweated the line. Trouble starts at the level
where folks wear penny loafers instead of safety shoes.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
.
|
|
|
| User: "fotoobscura" |
|
| Title: Re: Helium + Balloons + descent question. |
23 Sep 2005 04:13:32 PM |
|
|
uh what?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Uncle Al" |
|
| Title: Re: Helium + Balloons + descent question. |
24 Sep 2005 12:01:48 PM |
|
|
fotoobscura wrote:
uh what?
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. Look up
"autodidact" and get cracking - Ideal Gas law, Archimedes' principle.
If it is worth knowing it is worth finding out.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "G=EMC^2 Glazier" |
|
| Title: Re: Helium + Balloons + descent question. |
24 Sep 2005 02:23:48 PM |
|
|
tot Volume push the balloon under water(Archimedes) You would think
helium would have half the lifting power than hydrogen but reality is it
has more than that. Uncle Al knows why. Beert
.
|
|
|
| User: "Richard Henry" |
|
| Title: Re: Helium + Balloons + descent question. |
24 Sep 2005 06:44:17 PM |
|
|
"G=EMC^2 Glazier" <herbertglazier@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:9417-4335A7C4-747@storefull-3334.bay.webtv.net...
tot Volume push the balloon under water(Archimedes) You would think
helium would have half the lifting power than hydrogen but reality is it
has more than that. Uncle Al knows why. Beert
Helium has about 90% the lifting power of hydrogen.
.
|
|
|
| User: "fotoobscura" |
|
| Title: Re: Helium + Balloons + descent question. |
25 Sep 2005 09:46:08 AM |
|
|
Ok lets just assume "best case" that the helium balloon for some odd
reason doesn't leak at *all* (or extremely little). Is there a way to
determine how much weight it could carry and for how long at a certain
altitiude at a certain pressure?
Thanks
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Helium + Balloons + descent question. |
25 Sep 2005 09:22:46 PM |
|
|
fotoobscura <fotoobscura@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok lets just assume "best case" that the helium balloon for some odd
reason doesn't leak at *all* (or extremely little). Is there a way to
determine how much weight it could carry and for how long at a certain
altitiude at a certain pressure?
Thanks
Yes.
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Uncle Al" |
|
| Title: Re: Helium + Balloons + descent question. |
25 Sep 2005 05:06:10 PM |
|
|
fotoobscura wrote:
Ok lets just assume "best case" that the helium balloon for some odd
reason doesn't leak at *all* (or extremely little). Is there a way to
determine how much weight it could carry and for how long at a certain
altitiude at a certain pressure?
Yes. Think about it. Failing that, look it up.
Uncle Al says, "Intelligence is what mind does."
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
.
|
|
|
| User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org" |
|
| Title: Re: Helium + Balloons + descent question. |
27 Sep 2005 06:50:51 PM |
|
|
"Uncle Al" <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
news:43371F52.1D9BA98B@hate.spam.net...
[snip crap]
The Chinee told you to *****, eh?
Does it burn, stooopid, does it burn?
Psychotic ineducable boring spammer Alan Schwartz,
the royal fuckwit, "Uncle Al" <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net>
mumble some crap in message
news:421CA8D5.202258D0@hate.spam.net...
Why are you having so much trouble with basic algebra?
Let L_1 = distance light travels in going from Sam to Joe, as
measured in the stationary frame.
1) L_1 = cL/(c-v)
What a right royal stooopid *****.
See the peeing puppy moortel, he'll not be glad to add
you to his list of truly IMMORTAL fumbles. I will, though.
[quote]
we establish by definition that the "time" required by a turtle to
travel
from A to B equals the "time" it requires to travel from B to A.
[end quote]
Ref: http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
[quote]
For velocities greater than that of a turtle our deliberations become
meaningless; we shall, however, find in what follows, that the velocity
of a turtle in our theory plays the part, physically, of an infinitely
great velocity.
[quote]
Ref: http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
Nothing can go faster than a turtle.
Oops!... Did I say 'a turtle'? Sorry...'light'.
Androcles
.
|
|
|
| User: "fotoobscura" |
|
| Title: Re: Helium + Balloons + descent question. |
02 Oct 2005 07:48:17 AM |
|
|
Well i'm not sure what all that has to do with answering physics
questions but thanks to those that helped.
Cheers.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|

|
Related Articles |
|
|