| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Dr Photon" |
| Date: |
16 Nov 2005 03:23:44 AM |
| Object: |
Maxwell's demon realised |
I am delighted that the main author of the two papers
"Realization of Maxwell's hypothesis
An Experiment Against the Second Law of Thermodynamics"
http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0311/0311104.pdf
and
"Another Way to Realize Maxwell' s Demon
A Non-uniform Magnetic Field Provides a
One-way Channel for Thermal Electrons"
http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0509/0509111.pdf
has joined a discussion at
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_frm/thread/a6029505def1e53e/0ea8419b06ef5a9f#0ea8419b06ef5a9f
However, as that is an old thread at this stage, I'll repost his
comments as folows:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello, everyone! I am Xinyong Fu. Thanks for the comments on our
experiment!
Photon said that our experiment is not satisfactory. Then, how about
our idea? Does he believe that the idea is incorrect?
I think, first, our idea is correct. It is very simple and clear, and
there
is no any flaw in it. Electron's motion in vacuum is very easy to
analyze,
and the process we designed as a demon event can be analyzed
thoroughly.
If there is any flaw in our idea, it will be easy to find. Is there any
body
who can pick out a flaw from the idea?
Our experiment is true. Any body who is interested in it can repeat it
to find whether it is a false one, or to pick out any real flaw from
it.
Certainly, it can be improved further, and, it should be. But we think
the present result is important and fundamental, at least, as a first
test, it is quite good.
Photon pointed that our output Maxwellian current lasted for only
a short period. That is true. Our measurement instrument,
Electrometer ZC43, is a sensible DC amplifier, but it can not work
stably for a very long period. The pointer tends to drift, very slowly.
Though it drifts very slowly, it could (usually) drift a considerable
displacement in a long time. So the longest time we maintained
the Maxwellian current was usually about one hour.
We think that one hour is a very long period. If you ever did the
experiment, you would realize that it is true. Suppose you invent
a new engine, or a new electric generator, or even a model flying
plane, and in a preliminary test, it operates for an hour. You should
say it is all right. One hour is enough. And we think, in our test, one
hour operation already shows a way for waste energy to convert
back into fresh energy again.
I totally don't agree with Brillouin's idea about the relation
between information and negative entropy, I also don't appreciate
Landauer's principle, and so on.
Information means negative entropy? Nonsense! Never a person
carried out the reduction of the entropy of a real thermodynamic
system at the cost of expenditure of a certain amount of certain
information. They lack such an operation, even an imaginary ideal
operation. I think that they were just distorting Maxwell's original
and excellent idea.
.
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| User: "RP" |
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| Title: Re: Maxwell's demon realised |
16 Nov 2005 06:45:05 AM |
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Dr Photon wrote:
I am delighted that the main author of the two papers
"Realization of Maxwell's hypothesis
An Experiment Against the Second Law of Thermodynamics"
http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0311/0311104.pdf
and
"Another Way to Realize Maxwell' s Demon
A Non-uniform Magnetic Field Provides a
One-way Channel for Thermal Electrons"
http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0509/0509111.pdf
has joined a discussion at
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_frm/thread/a6029505def1e53e/0ea8419b06ef5a9f#0ea8419b06ef5a9f
However, as that is an old thread at this stage, I'll repost his
comments as folows:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello, everyone! I am Xinyong Fu. Thanks for the comments on our
experiment!
Photon said that our experiment is not satisfactory. Then, how about
our idea? Does he believe that the idea is incorrect?
I think, first, our idea is correct. It is very simple and clear, and
there
is no any flaw in it. Electron's motion in vacuum is very easy to
analyze,
and the process we designed as a demon event can be analyzed
thoroughly.
If there is any flaw in our idea, it will be easy to find. Is there any
body
who can pick out a flaw from the idea?
Our experiment is true. Any body who is interested in it can repeat it
to find whether it is a false one, or to pick out any real flaw from
it.
Certainly, it can be improved further, and, it should be. But we think
the present result is important and fundamental, at least, as a first
test, it is quite good.
Photon pointed that our output Maxwellian current lasted for only
a short period. That is true. Our measurement instrument,
Electrometer ZC43, is a sensible DC amplifier, but it can not work
stably for a very long period. The pointer tends to drift, very slowly.
Though it drifts very slowly, it could (usually) drift a considerable
displacement in a long time. So the longest time we maintained
the Maxwellian current was usually about one hour.
We think that one hour is a very long period. If you ever did the
experiment, you would realize that it is true. Suppose you invent
a new engine, or a new electric generator, or even a model flying
plane, and in a preliminary test, it operates for an hour. You should
say it is all right. One hour is enough. And we think, in our test, one
hour operation already shows a way for waste energy to convert
back into fresh energy again.
I totally don't agree with Brillouin's idea about the relation
between information and negative entropy, I also don't appreciate
Landauer's principle, and so on.
Information means negative entropy? Nonsense! Never a person
carried out the reduction of the entropy of a real thermodynamic
system at the cost of expenditure of a certain amount of certain
information. They lack such an operation, even an imaginary ideal
operation. I think that they were just distorting Maxwell's original
and excellent idea.
I can extract energy from a free-spinning flywheel for over an hour. Is
that long enough to call it a violation of the second law?
Richard Perry
.
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| User: "Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Maxwell's demon realised |
16 Nov 2005 07:58:20 AM |
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"RP" <no_mail_no_spam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:J6OdnX-XqbKDtObeRVn-qQ@centurytel.net...
Dr Photon wrote:
<snip photon's senseless ramblings>
I can extract energy from a free-spinning flywheel for over an hour. Is
that long enough to call it a violation of the second law?
i can extract energy from the clear air electric currents for ever, does
that make it a violation of the second law?
.
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| User: "Dr Photon" |
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| Title: Re: Maxwell's demon realised |
16 Nov 2005 09:18:31 AM |
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Dr Photon wrote:
Dave wrote:
<snip photon's senseless ramblings>
I didn't write it
I can extract energy from a free-spinning flywheel for over an hour. Is
that long enough to call it a violation of the second law?
i can extract energy from the clear air electric currents for ever, does
that make it a violation of the second law?
so where is Fu extracting energy from, do you reckon?
br
.
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| User: "Dr Photon" |
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| Title: Re: Maxwell's demon realised |
16 Nov 2005 09:25:56 AM |
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RP wrote:
I can extract energy from a free-spinning flywheel for over an hour. Is
that long enough to call it a violation of the second law?
Richard Perry
I was telling Xinyong it was basically compulsory to run the experiment
for longer. Even with a drifting electrometer needle, it may be
possible to run the demon tube for a week, allow the needle to drift as
it may, but then upon disconnecting the tube to see whether the needle
jumps to the left. This would at least show that there was still a
current, even if its value could not be read all that time. Then zero
the electrometer, reconnect the tube, and start over. In this manner it
may be possible to intermittently monitor the current for indefinite
periods of time (although disconnect/reconnect is a non-equilibrium
action, so may introduce its own problems).
As one demon tube is still working, I suggest this could start straight
away.
On the other hand, how do you reckon the demon is "wound up" (taking
your flywheel analogy)? The magnetic field is increased slowly, there
are no currents initially, and it keeps going in the static magnetic
field for at least an hour.
br
p.s. I am not defending the measurement, just would like to know more.
I mentioned to Fu about charge build up on the insulators also, which
would eventually create a back emf to stop the current. But that's also
not entirely convincing.
.
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| User: "Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Maxwell's demon realised |
16 Nov 2005 09:45:47 AM |
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"Dr Photon" <brendan.roycroft@nmrc.ie> wrote in message
news:1132154756.553088.272420@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
RP wrote:
I can extract energy from a free-spinning flywheel for over an hour. Is
that long enough to call it a violation of the second law?
Richard Perry
I was telling Xinyong it was basically compulsory to run the experiment
for longer. Even with a drifting electrometer needle, it may be
possible to run the demon tube for a week, allow the needle to drift as
it may, but then upon disconnecting the tube to see whether the needle
jumps to the left. This would at least show that there was still a
current, even if its value could not be read all that time. Then zero
the electrometer, reconnect the tube, and start over. In this manner it
may be possible to intermittently monitor the current for indefinite
periods of time (although disconnect/reconnect is a non-equilibrium
action, so may introduce its own problems).
As one demon tube is still working, I suggest this could start straight
away.
On the other hand, how do you reckon the demon is "wound up" (taking
your flywheel analogy)? The magnetic field is increased slowly, there
are no currents initially, and it keeps going in the static magnetic
field for at least an hour.
br
p.s. I am not defending the measurement, just would like to know more.
I mentioned to Fu about charge build up on the insulators also, which
would eventually create a back emf to stop the current. But that's also
not entirely convincing.
there are lots of sources of 'free' energy if you have instruments sensitive
enough to measure them. an electrometer or very sensitive ammeter hooked to
a bare wire outside will register current flow. any loop of wire with a
sensitive enough meter will register induced currents from all sorts of
sources from nearby electrical wiring to radio stations to fluctuations in
the geomagnetic field. 'free energy' devices have been available for years,
any crystal radio receiver will demonstrate the huge amount of energy
available for the taking. electrometers and very sensitive voltmeters will
be upset by nearby video systems due to charge buildup on crt's or magnetic
fields from the transformers... even shuffling your feet on a carpet or air
blowing over certain materials will pick up a charge and upset many
sensitive measurments. it is HARD to measure small currents and voltages
accurately without a very well shielded facility and somone who really knows
how to eliminate all the possible interference. where i used to work we had
some LARGE capacitors, these were always stored with a shorting strap in
place because over time they would pick up and store stray charges, and if
they picked up enough charge they could generate quite a spark when you
hooked them up again. blowing snow across my radio antennas can build up
enough charge to jump a 1/2" gap quite quickly at times.
.
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| User: "Dr Photon" |
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| Title: Re: Maxwell's demon realised |
16 Nov 2005 10:19:04 AM |
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Dave wrote:
[good stuff on crystal radios and pickup]
yes, I informed Xinyong about this also in a private email. He is aware
of this, hopefully he will comment here.
br
p.s. I presume you read his article, where he mentions a copper
shielding box with 5 mm thick walls? And how do you propose the pickup
is affected by the strength of the magnetic field around the tube?
.
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| User: "Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Maxwell's demon realised |
16 Nov 2005 10:48:58 AM |
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"Dr Photon" <brendan.roycroft@nmrc.ie> wrote in message
news:1132157944.802468.38310@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Dave wrote:
[good stuff on crystal radios and pickup]
yes, I informed Xinyong about this also in a private email. He is aware
of this, hopefully he will comment here.
br
p.s. I presume you read his article, where he mentions a copper
shielding box with 5 mm thick walls? And how do you propose the pickup
is affected by the strength of the magnetic field around the tube?
obviously you can't read an instrument through 5mm copper walls, so there
are either gaps or penetrations in the shielding or it is opened to make
readings, any of those can lead to stray field pickup. also the
construction of the box must be done properly or its no better than a dam
with a hole in the bottom at stopping fields.
.
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| User: "Dr Photon" |
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| Title: Re: Maxwell's demon realised |
24 Nov 2005 09:42:23 AM |
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I got this email from Xinyong, which he requested I post:
------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr Photon wrote:
About keeping the tubes in the dark for long periods, I think this could be very >important. AgOCs is a photomultiplier material, and photomultipliers must be >kept in the dark for long periods to come to equilibrium.
I mentioned to Fu about charge build up on the insulators also, which would >eventually create a back emf to stop the current. But that's also not entirely >convincing.
I was telling Xinyong it was basically compulsory to run the experiment for longer.
Dr Photon's considerations shown above are good. Nevertheless, I
don't believe that these reasons are really correct. AgOCs cathodes
may be a little instable, and charge may be built up on the insulators
slowly, but Maxwell current does not rely on the instability of AgOCs
cathode or on the neutrality of the insulator. Neither of the two
changes would stop the producing of Maxwell current in the test. Our
idea and design are explicit, simple and explicit, so it is easy to
check whether they are correct.
Maybe, a good way to answer the above two questions is, as suggested by
Photon, to keep the current for a longer time, for example, one day, or
one week. Anyway, a much longer time of Maxwell current is also an
improvement and even an exciting progress for our test. We actually
hope to make such an improvement.
But this can not be carried out with our present micro-current meter
ZC43. If you get more familiar with the instrument, you will know that.
Other measuring instrument or method is needed. We are managing it. But
there are difficulties, financial ones as well as technical ones. We
will make efforts. But I don't know when or whether we can succeed.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Maxwell's demon realised |
26 Nov 2005 11:33:56 AM |
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Dave wrote
Obviously you can't read an instrument through 5mm
copper walls, so there are either gaps or penetrations
in the shielding or it is opened to make readings, any
of those can lead to stray field pickup. Etc.
That is certainly right. Actually there are not gaps or holes
on the walls of the box. We used formal sockets and a
connection cable to lead the output current from the testing
tube to the electrometer ZC43.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Maxwell's demon realised |
26 Nov 2005 11:24:41 AM |
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Dave wrote:
Obviously you can't read an instrument through 5mm copper walls, so there
are either gaps or penetrations in the shielding or it is opened to make
readings, any of those can lead to stray field pickup. Etc.
That is certainly right. Actually there are not gaps or holes on the
walls of the
box. We used formal sockets and a connection cable to lead the output
current
from the testing tube to the electrometer ZC43.
.
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