| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Dobri Karagorgov" |
| Date: |
27 Feb 2005 05:28:41 AM |
| Object: |
My definition of force!!! |
How would you distinguish between the fundamental forces? What makes
one force electric and other nuclear? Your problem is in your
definition of force. My definition is pure: "force is geometric
potential of the body". Just like you say potential energy, I can say
force is sort of potential distance. How much force the body has that
much further away from the equilibrium point it will get.
"Unified Psycho Physics"
www.geocities.com/dedaNoe
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
27 Feb 2005 01:19:30 PM |
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Dobri Karagorgov wrote:
How would you distinguish between the fundamental forces?
Physics.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html
http://www.motionmountain.net
What makes
one force electric and other nuclear?
The associated virtual vector boson.
Your problem is in your
definition of force. My definition is pure: "force is geometric
potential of the body".
[snip crap]
Hey schmuck - spacetime has no coordinate background.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
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| User: "OsherD" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
27 Feb 2005 03:49:55 PM |
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From Osher Doctorow
Hey! Don't calla my boys Shmucka! Dobri Karagorgov (Dobri means
"good") sounds like a nice guy. What's a nice guy doing in a place
like this? And stop snipping crap or you'll hurt you nose. Nobody
gets hurt on sci.physics. Not you, not me, not even Dobri. You takea
you virtual bosons and you coordinate background, and you stuff them
where the sun doesn't shine. Geometry potential, now - this kid's
thinking Big Gs. And that's the bottom line. That's how I got to be
Uncle Osher, and you got to be Uncle Al. Remember you place. Now sit
down and eat _____ (expletive deleted).
Uncle Osher
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| User: "OsherD" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
27 Feb 2005 04:05:21 PM |
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From Osher Doctorow
Uncle Al Said, Followed By Uncle Osher Said, Followed by Show text:
snip crap]
Hey schmuck - spacetime has no coordinate background.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
Reply
OsherD Feb 27, 1:49 pm show options
From Osher Doctorow
Hey! Don't calla my boys Shmucka! Dobri Karagorgov (Dobri means
"good") sounds like a nice guy. What's a nice guy doing in a place
like this? And stop snipping crap or you'll hurt you nose. Nobody
gets hurt on sci.physics. Not you, not me, not even Dobri. You takea
you virtual bosons and you coordinate background, and you stuff them
where the sun doesn't shine. Geometry potential, now - this kid's
thinking Big Gs. And that's the bottom line. That's how I got to be
Uncle Osher, and you got to be Uncle Al. Remember you place. Now sit
down and eat _____ (expletive deleted).
Uncle Osher
This is what you mean by "quote text"?
Osher
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| User: "OsherD" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
27 Feb 2005 03:52:56 PM |
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From Osher Doctorow
Hey! Don't calla my boys Shmucka! Dobri Karagorgov (Dobri means
"good") sounds like a nice guy. What's a nice guy doing in a place
like this? And stop snipping crap or you'll hurt you nose. Nobody
gets hurt on sci.physics. Not you, not me, not even Dobri. You takea
you virtual bosons and you coordinate background, and you stuff them
where the sun doesn't shine. Geometry potential, now - this kid's
thinking Big Gs. And that's the bottom line. That's how I got to be
Uncle Osher, and you got to be Uncle Al. Remember you place. Now sit
down and eat _____ (expletive deleted).
Uncle Osher
.
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| User: "TomGee" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
27 Feb 2005 03:41:57 PM |
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Dobri Karagorgov wrote:
How would you distinguish between the fundamental forces?
The fundamental forces are already distinguished. The fundamental
force is energy, which is common to all the forces.
What makes
one force electric and other nuclear? Your problem is in your
definition of force. My definition is pure: "force is geometric
potential of the body". Just like you say potential energy, I can say
force is sort of potential distance. How much force the body has that
much further away from the equilibrium point it will get.
"Unified Psycho Physics"
www.geocities.com/dedaNoe
You seem to have left something out in your last statement above. If
you could say that force is "sort of potential distance", that would be
valid only as it refers to the distance an object could be moved by a
certain amount of force applied to it, and not to the actual moving of
the object. Then, since force is applied, it is not a potential force,
but an exercise of force where energy is used to move the object.
"9. physics influence that moves something: a physical influence that
tends to change the position of an object with mass, equal to the rate
of change in momentum of the object. Symbol F"
Microsoft=AE Encarta=AE Reference Library 2005. =A9 1993-2004 Microsoft
Corporation. All rights reserved.
Here is an excerpt from my model of the universe regarding my
definition of force:
" The next question for us, then, should be: How and when does such
transfer of energy occur? The answer to that is not really as
difficult as it may seem. Energy is commonly de-fined as the capacity
of matter to perform work, as a consequence of its motion or position
in relation to forces acting upon it. Yet, energy is also defined as
usable power, as a vigorous exertion of power, and as a synonym for
power. Other synonyms for energy are force, strength, and might.
Power is ordinarily defined as the time rate at which work is done, but
it is also defined as the ability to act or produce an effect, and it
implies possession of the ability to wield force. Therefore, energy is
a force having the power to overcome resistance to it.
A force is ordinarily defined as any action or influence that when
applied to a free body results sometimes in an acceleration of the body
and sometimes in elastic deformation and/or other effects. Newton's
second law of motion states that the amount of acceleration imposed on
an object times the mass of the object is equal to the net force acting
on the object. We may argue that particular law refers only to
objects, but a force is also described as the influ-ence of a field,
such as electrical and gravitational fields. A force acting at an
atomic level is known in high-energy physics as an interaction.
So-called elementary particles exert forces on each other and the
imposition of such forces are called interactions. In spite of all the
defini-tions above that lead to the conclusion that energy is a force,
I have met with solid opposition against such a claim from some
knowledgeable Internet users who post on physics news-groups. They
seem unwilling to accept the obvious, probably because there already
exist four other well-explained "forces of nature."
I have heard no one seriously suggest that energy could be a fifth
force. That could be because all four forces use energy as their
motive power. They use it in different ways, but it is energy they
use, nevertheless. Even the so-called messenger, or "signal" particles
must ac-complish their "work," or, "interactions," through the use of
energy. One would think that the concept of energy as a force could
easily be accepted on the basis alone that it is the one force which is
common to all the other forces and if so, it may be that it is also the
central factor of the GUT of the universe and essential to the TOE.
Clifford E. Swartz writes in "Mechanics," in an article for Microsoft
Encarta Encyclopedia 99: "The quantity called energy ties together all
branches of physics. In...mechanics, energy must be provided to do
work;.... Many other forms of energy exist: electric and magnetic
potential energy; kinetic energy; energy stored in compressed springs,
compressed gases, or molecular bonds; thermal energy; and mass itself."
(The Time And Motion Relationship, by Thomas Garcia, copyright 1996,
tyropress@yahoo.com)
TomGee
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
27 Feb 2005 04:00:36 PM |
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TomGee wrote:
The fundamental forces are already distinguished. The fundamental
force is energy, which is common to all the forces.
As is learned in high school physics--energy is not force
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Energy.html
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/ConservationofEnergy.html
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Force.html
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/FundamentalForces.html
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| User: "TomGee" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
27 Feb 2005 08:11:48 PM |
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Well, then, Wormy, if energy is not force, what is it?
TomGee
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| User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
28 Feb 2005 06:53:13 AM |
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TomGee wrote:
Well, then, Wormy, if energy is not force, what is it?
Read the pages which Sam cited. Try to learn something, for a change.
Bye,
Bjoern
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| User: "TomGee" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
28 Feb 2005 01:20:18 PM |
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Bjoern,
I did read some of them and I responded to the silliness of referring
posters to websites which contain a plethora of facts and opinions
useless usually to straight-thinkers like me. For those seeking to be
educated, they end up confused all the more. Those who cannot express
themselves properly or those who have no reasonable rebuttal to OP
claims, or those who cannot have any original thoughts, are those poor
souls who refer others to websites. You don't have any favorite sites
to refer others to so you refer us to Wormy's sites! How uncouth! How
gross!
TomGee
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| User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
03 Mar 2005 04:03:15 AM |
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TomGee wrote:
Bjoern,
I did read some of them
Please notice that I not only said that you should read them.
I also said "Try to learn something, for a change." Apparently
you missed that part.
and I responded to the silliness of referring
posters to websites which contain a plethora of facts and opinions
Apparently you missed that these pages also contained *definitions*.
useless usually to straight-thinkers like me.
You think anything but straight.
For those seeking to be
educated, they end up confused all the more.
Not if they have some reading comprehension abilities.
Those who cannot express
themselves properly or those who have no reasonable rebuttal to OP
claims, or those who cannot have any original thoughts, are those poor
souls who refer others to websites.
Wrong. Referring to websites is quite natural when questions are posed
which have been answered hundreds of times already, and for which
good explanations on the web exist.
What do *you* think the sense of FAQ pages is?
You don't have any favorite sites
to refer others to so you refer us to Wormy's sites!
I merely pointed out that you apparently either did not read them,
or didn't bother to try learning anything from them.
How uncouth! How gross!
How pathetic.
Bye,
Bjoern
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| User: "TomGee" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
05 Mar 2005 12:28:05 AM |
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Bjoern Feuerbacher wrote:
TomGee wrote:
Bjoern,
I did read some of them
Please notice that I not only said that you should read them.
I also said "Try to learn something, for a change." Apparently
you missed that part.
I did try to learn something from them, but they are so filled with
unrelated facts, issues, and opinions, that to learn anything from them
is to learn subjective review of the facts and the opinions of the
authors, and I know all that already. You read them and learned what
from them besides the personal beliefs of the writers?
and I responded to the silliness of referring
posters to websites which contain a plethora of facts and opinions
Apparently you missed that these pages also contained *definitions*.
False definitions, yes. Personal and opinionated definitions, yes.
Unexplained theory and wrong conclusions, yes. No wonder you don't
have a clue, Bjoern, you're learning from the wrong persons, those who
don't have a clue either. It was a waste of my time to read those
websites as they simply parrot theory as if it were fact or accepted
fact.
useless usually to straight-thinkers like me.
You think anything but straight.
Pot. Kettle. Black. (Heh heh, remember that?)
For those seeking to be
educated, they end up confused all the more.
Not if they have some reading comprehension abilities.
But if, like you and Wormy, they don't, they end confused all the more.
Those who cannot express
themselves properly or those who have no reasonable rebuttal to OP
claims, or those who cannot have any original thoughts, are those
poor
souls who refer others to websites.
Wrong. Referring to websites is quite natural when questions are
posed
which have been answered hundreds of times already, and for which
good explanations on the web exist.
It's quite natural only when you do have the answer to the question, or
when you lack the prose to post your answer. Any teacher will tell you
that is a ridiculous way to try to teach any one anything or to make a
point about an issue in debate. You may as well refer them to the
library.
What do *you* think the sense of FAQ pages is?
They proclaim the current interpretations of the writers of the theory
as they understand it. It seems that most simply parrot their side of
any issue which is contention.
You don't have any favorite sites
to refer others to so you refer us to Wormy's sites!
I merely pointed out that you apparently either did not read them,
or didn't bother to try learning anything from them.
You were wrong on both counts, then, as you usually are.
TomGee
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
06 Mar 2005 03:01:35 PM |
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TomGee wrote:
Bjoern Feuerbacher wrote:
TomGee wrote:
Bjoern,
I did read some of them
Please notice that I not only said that you should read them.
I also said "Try to learn something, for a change." Apparently
you missed that part.
I did try to learn something from them, but they are so filled with
unrelated facts, issues, and opinions, that to learn anything from
them
is to learn subjective review of the facts and the opinions of the
authors, and I know all that already. You read them and learned what
from them besides the personal beliefs of the writers?
I'm sorry you're confused by the information therein. Opinions?
Subjective? Personal beliefs? No. These are accountings of
experimentally verifiable and verified rules of nature.
Do you not understand that in a physics textbook there may be 3800
end-of-chapter problems, EVERY ONE OF WHICH is an experiment that is
verifiable?
and I responded to the silliness of referring
posters to websites which contain a plethora of facts and
opinions
Apparently you missed that these pages also contained
*definitions*.
False definitions, yes. Personal and opinionated definitions, yes.
Unexplained theory and wrong conclusions, yes. No wonder you don't
have a clue, Bjoern, you're learning from the wrong persons, those
who
don't have a clue either. It was a waste of my time to read those
websites as they simply parrot theory as if it were fact or accepted
fact.
useless usually to straight-thinkers like me.
You think anything but straight.
Pot. Kettle. Black. (Heh heh, remember that?)
For those seeking to be
educated, they end up confused all the more.
Not if they have some reading comprehension abilities.
But if, like you and Wormy, they don't, they end confused all the
more.
Those who cannot express
themselves properly or those who have no reasonable rebuttal to
OP
claims, or those who cannot have any original thoughts, are those
poor
souls who refer others to websites.
Wrong. Referring to websites is quite natural when questions are
posed
which have been answered hundreds of times already, and for which
good explanations on the web exist.
It's quite natural only when you do have the answer to the question,
or
when you lack the prose to post your answer. Any teacher will tell
you
that is a ridiculous way to try to teach any one anything or to make
a
point about an issue in debate. You may as well refer them to the
library.
And note that teachers ALSO require their students to do reading, AND
teachers charge students for the teachers' time teaching them.
What do *you* think the sense of FAQ pages is?
They proclaim the current interpretations of the writers of the
theory
as they understand it. It seems that most simply parrot their side
of
any issue which is contention.
You don't have any favorite sites
to refer others to so you refer us to Wormy's sites!
I merely pointed out that you apparently either did not read them,
or didn't bother to try learning anything from them.
You were wrong on both counts, then, as you usually are.
TomGee
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| User: "TomGee" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
06 Mar 2005 09:45:21 PM |
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PD wrote:
TomGee wrote:
Bjoern Feuerbacher wrote:
TomGee wrote:
SNIP
I did try to learn something from them, but they are so filled with
unrelated facts, issues, and opinions, that to learn anything from
them
is to learn subjective review of the facts and the opinions of the
authors, and I know all that already. You read them and learned
what
from them besides the personal beliefs of the writers?
I'm sorry you're confused by the information therein.
No, not confused at all. It is you who is confused by it all.
? Opinions?
Subjective? Personal beliefs? No. These are accountings of
experimentally verifiable and verified rules of nature.
No, that's only what they purport to be and what you heartily wish them
to be, but that is not what they are.
Do you not understand that in a physics textbook there may be 3800
end-of-chapter problems, EVERY ONE OF WHICH is an experiment that is
verifiable?
Why do you insist on making such silly statements that only show that
you tend toward exaggeration?
and I responded to the silliness of referring
posters to websites which contain a plethora of facts and
opinions
Apparently you missed that these pages also contained
*definitions*.
No, I did not miss the opinionated definitions (see below), some false,
some confused, and totally incorrect, posted in the FAQ sheets by those
who post herein to argue their opinions and unholy faith in Relativity.
And, oh yes, a few correct ones.
False definitions, yes. Personal and opinionated definitions, yes.
Unexplained theory and wrong conclusions, yes. No wonder you don't
have a clue, Bjoern, you're learning from the wrong persons, those
who
don't have a clue either. It was a waste of my time to read those
websites as they simply parrot theory as if it were fact or
accepted
fact.
TomGee
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
07 Mar 2005 11:53:24 AM |
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TomGee wrote:
PD wrote:
TomGee wrote:
Bjoern Feuerbacher wrote:
TomGee wrote:
SNIP
I did try to learn something from them, but they are so filled
with
unrelated facts, issues, and opinions, that to learn anything
from
them
is to learn subjective review of the facts and the opinions of
the
authors, and I know all that already. You read them and learned
what
from them besides the personal beliefs of the writers?
I'm sorry you're confused by the information therein.
No, not confused at all. It is you who is confused by it all.
? Opinions?
Subjective? Personal beliefs? No. These are accountings of
experimentally verifiable and verified rules of nature.
No, that's only what they purport to be and what you heartily wish
them
to be, but that is not what they are.
I see. And you know this how?
Do you not understand that in a physics textbook there may be 3800
end-of-chapter problems, EVERY ONE OF WHICH is an experiment that
is
verifiable?
Why do you insist on making such silly statements that only show that
you tend toward exaggeration?
I take it you disagree with that statement. Would you please take a
chapter in a physics text and list the problems that can NOT be taken
to be an experimentally verifiable case study?
Or are you one of those folks who are willing to dismiss a book without
reading it?
and I responded to the silliness of referring
posters to websites which contain a plethora of facts and
opinions
Apparently you missed that these pages also contained
*definitions*.
No, I did not miss the opinionated definitions (see below), some
false,
some confused, and totally incorrect, posted in the FAQ sheets by
those
who post herein to argue their opinions and unholy faith in
Relativity.
And, oh yes, a few correct ones.
OK, cite two that are correct and two that are incorrect. Back up your
assertions, man!
False definitions, yes. Personal and opinionated definitions,
yes.
Unexplained theory and wrong conclusions, yes. No wonder you
don't
have a clue, Bjoern, you're learning from the wrong persons,
those
who
don't have a clue either. It was a waste of my time to read
those
websites as they simply parrot theory as if it were fact or
accepted
fact.
TomGee
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
15 Mar 2005 12:27:47 PM |
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TomGee wrote:
Bjoern,
I did read some of them and I responded to the silliness of referring
posters to websites which contain a plethora of facts and opinions
useless usually to straight-thinkers like me. For those seeking to
be
educated, they end up confused all the more. Those who cannot
express
themselves properly or those who have no reasonable rebuttal to OP
claims, or those who cannot have any original thoughts, are those
poor
souls who refer others to websites. You don't have any favorite
sites
to refer others to so you refer us to Wormy's sites! How uncouth!
How
gross!
TomGee
This is baiting and you know it.
You hold the attitude that everyone should explain everything in
narrative to you, without reference to outside sources. Indeed, the
reason you want this is that you are having trouble following the
material in the outside sources. You dismiss the outside sources as
containing a plethora of facts and opinions. The only outside source
you will consider (and which, in your mind and in contrast to all other
sources and references, is unimpeachable) is Microsoft Encarta, which
you obtained at a discount. The reason you like Encarta is that none of
its explanations are longer than a paragraph or contain more than one
algebraic expression. You would like all such explanations to be in
this form, easily digestible and/or debatable.
Unfortunately, Tom, this is not going to happen for you. Outside
references are long for a reason -- it takes a bit to explain things
properly. Moreover, to demonstrate the correctness and applicability of
the thoughts therein, some calculations are required. The authors of
those references spend a good chunk of their lives recording and
checking and rewriting those explanations, and all published references
of that form are highly reviewed and externally checked, as well. (Note
Wikipedia is NOT checked, by design. Note that the level of checking
and *who* checks the articles is also different for Encarta than it is
for physics references.)
There is no short-circuit for learning this stuff, Tom. If you want to
get to Z, you'll have do M, P, S, and W first. If M is too loaded with
incomprensible detail or the math is too hard, then you'll have to
start earlier, with K or E or even A. If you find it daunting that
you'd have to learn all of A-Y to get to Z, then my only advice is keep
your eyes on the prize and labor through it. If you find A or B or C
boring, even though you need them before understanding D, then you are
not cut out to be a physicist, plain and simple.
PD
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| User: "GR_GR" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
28 Feb 2005 06:10:30 AM |
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TomGee wrote:
Well, then, Wormy, if energy is not force, what is it?
TomGee
Check the units before you continue with your arguments. Even U-grad
students have learned to to this.
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| User: "TomGee" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
28 Feb 2005 01:10:05 PM |
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GR_GR,
I have checked my units, and they're all different depending on what it
is I'm measuring. So what?
TomGee
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
28 Feb 2005 02:42:07 PM |
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TomGee wrote:
GR_GR,
I have checked my units, and they're all different depending on what it
is I'm measuring. So what?
TomGee
Tom--you don't even understand the basics of physics... why do you
think your posts are met with incredulity?
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| User: "TomGee" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
14 Mar 2005 09:01:52 AM |
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Wormy, because every new idea is met with incredulity here by you,
Bjoern, UA, and many others who troll sci. ngs. Whether or not I
understand physics basics has nothing to do with the fact that not any
one of you can ovethrow my ideas, no matter how much you try or have
tried. All you can do is attack me personally since you cannot argue
effectively against my ideas. If you could, you would have done so
already, but you can't and so you have not. After fending off your
personal attacks, all I get from you experts is silence. Too bad you
don't follow up on what I'm telling you, because sooner or later you
would have to either find a way to overthrow my ideas, or come to
believe in what I say.
TomGee
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
14 Mar 2005 10:51:20 AM |
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TomGee wrote:
Wormy, because every new idea is met with incredulity here by you,
Bjoern, UA, and many others who troll sci. ngs.
A new idea without a good understanding of the current idea is
*rightfully* met with incredulity. This is what you do not understand,
or if you understand it, do not accept.
PD
Whether or not I
understand physics basics has nothing to do with the fact that not
any
one of you can ovethrow my ideas, no matter how much you try or have
tried. All you can do is attack me personally since you cannot argue
effectively against my ideas. If you could, you would have done so
already, but you can't and so you have not. After fending off your
personal attacks, all I get from you experts is silence. Too bad you
don't follow up on what I'm telling you, because sooner or later you
would have to either find a way to overthrow my ideas, or come to
believe in what I say.
TomGee
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
15 Mar 2005 12:23:00 AM |
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TomGee wrote:
Wormy, because every new idea is met with incredulity here by you,
Bjoern, UA, and many others who troll sci. ngs.
I take issue with statements from you that are empirically
contradicted TomGee!
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| User: "TomGee" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
15 Mar 2005 05:08:02 AM |
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Well, just show those to me and I will concede to you, Wormly.
TomGee
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
15 Mar 2005 08:53:47 AM |
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TomGee wrote:
Well, just show those to me and I will concede to you, Wormly.
TomGee
Everything is in the posting archives TomGee for you to see.
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| User: "GR_GR" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
28 Feb 2005 01:57:55 PM |
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TomGee wrote:
GR_GR,
I have checked my units, and they're all different depending on what it
is I'm measuring. So what?
TomGee
If you do not understand... then you are a hopeless case, destined
shortly for the rubbish bin.
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| User: "TomGee" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
28 Feb 2005 02:19:44 PM |
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So you say, GR_GR,
But I've been here since about 9 or 10 yrs now, and I've seen those
like you come and go because they cannot offer up reasonable debate in
response to the many ideas posited in these ngs. All your type can do
is say things like, "rubbish, nonsense, you don't understand, read my
this or that links, and on and on ad infinitum....."
Answer my question, if you dare, or if you care to engage in reasonable
debate, or if you have an answer at all. Or if you can even express
yourself to the point where others can understand what you say.
When you write like Bjoern, you sound like him (are you him?), and he
keeps losing our debates every time. Don't you want to do better than
that? No one can tell the difference twix yours and his responses, so
wise up, ydoncha?, and engage your brain before posting responses.
I'll give you one more chance to respond to my question: So what?
TomGee
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| User: "GR_GR" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
28 Feb 2005 04:05:37 PM |
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TomGee wrote:
So you say, GR_GR,
But I've been here since about 9 or 10 yrs now, and I've seen those
like you come and go because they cannot offer up reasonable debate in
response to the many ideas posited in these ngs.
The common lament of a "crack pot".
Varney warned me about people like you.
I will take his sage advice....
---plonk---
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
28 Feb 2005 01:29:25 PM |
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TomGee wrote:
Well, then, Wormy, if energy is not force, what is it?
TomGee
Energy is a scalar quantity, having no direction.
Force is a vector quantity, having direction.
Energy is a quantity that is conserved in interactions.
Force is a quantity that is not necessarily conserved in interactions.
Energy is a state variable for thermodynamic systems.
Force is not a state variable for thermodynamic systems.
Energy is energy. Force is force.
The two are related, they are not the same.
Period.
PD
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| User: "TomGee" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
28 Feb 2005 02:43:26 PM |
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PD wrote:
TomGee wrote:
Well, then, Wormy, if energy is not force, what is it?
TomGee
Energy is a scalar quantity, having no direction.
Force is a vector quantity, having direction.
I do not argue with your definitions, PD, I simply express my idea that
energy is observed in a physical way only through the use of some force
or another. A quantity of energy and one of force are the same thing:
measurable properties of something.
Energy is a quantity that is conserved in interactions.
Force is a quantity that is not necessarily conserved in
interactions.
Again, the two are quantities, properties of something. Conserved or
not, makes no difference to this issue.
Energy is a state variable for thermodynamic systems.
Force is not a state variable for thermodynamic systems.
Energy as a variable state for thermodynamic systems is still a
quantity, and for this issue, it is not relevant for force to be a
variable state or not in thermodynamic systems.
Energy is energy. Force is force.
The two are related, they are not the same.
Period.
PD
Period to the extent of someone's ability to think straight, but if we
can view time as a dimension and time rates as variable properties of
visible matter (as in the Twin Paradox), we can view energy analogous
to time, and force analogous to time rates, in order for us to
understand the relationship in a better way than to view them as so
disparate that they cannot be more related than they seem to be,
according to you, or as related as I claim them to be.
TomGee 02/28/05
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
28 Feb 2005 03:02:06 PM |
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TomGee wrote:
PD wrote:
TomGee wrote:
Well, then, Wormy, if energy is not force, what is it?
TomGee
Energy is a scalar quantity, having no direction.
Force is a vector quantity, having direction.
I do not argue with your definitions, PD, I simply express my idea
that
energy is observed in a physical way only through the use of some
force
or another. A quantity of energy and one of force are the same
thing:
measurable properties of something.
Density, color, and electric charge are all properties of something,
but that doesn't make them the same.
As I said earlier, forces and energy are *connected* via the
work-energy theorem. That doesn't make them the same thing. Angular
momentum and tangential velocity are also *connected* but they are
definitely not the same thing.
Energy is a quantity that is conserved in interactions.
Force is a quantity that is not necessarily conserved in
interactions.
Again, the two are quantities, properties of something. Conserved or
not, makes no difference to this issue.
Makes all the difference as far as physics is concerned. Energy would
not be a quantity of interest at all if not for the fact that it is
conserved. For example, I can define "momagnitude" as m*v^3. It is a
perfectly well defined property of an object. Applying a force changes
momagnitude. However, there is nothing distinctive physically about
momagnitude -- it obeys no common physical laws nor it is a conserved
quantity. Hence it is useless as a physics quantity.
Energy is a state variable for thermodynamic systems.
Force is not a state variable for thermodynamic systems.
Energy as a variable state for thermodynamic systems is still a
quantity, and for this issue, it is not relevant for force to be a
variable state or not in thermodynamic systems.
Again, see previous comment. Energy being a state variable is one of
the things that makes the quantity stand out physically.
Energy is energy. Force is force.
The two are related, they are not the same.
Period.
PD
Period to the extent of someone's ability to think straight, but if
we
can view time as a dimension and time rates as variable properties of
visible matter (as in the Twin Paradox), we can view energy analogous
to time, and force analogous to time rates, in order for us to
understand the relationship in a better way than to view them as so
disparate that they cannot be more related than they seem to be,
according to you, or as related as I claim them to be.
TomGee 02/28/05
Analogies are squishy. How far does the analogy carry and where does it
crap out?
PD
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| User: "TomGee" |
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| Title: Re: My definition of force!!! |
28 Feb 2005 04:09:19 PM |
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PD wrote:
TomGee wrote:
PD wrote:
TomGee wrote:
Well, then, Wormy, if energy is not force, what is it?
TomGee
Energy is a scalar quantity, having no direction.
Force is a vector quantity, having direction.
I do not argue with your definitions, PD, I simply express my idea
that
energy is observed in a physical way only through the use of some
force
or another. A quantity of energy and one of force are the same
thing:
measurable properties of something.
Density, color, and electric charge are all properties of something,
but that doesn't make them the same.
I did not say that all properties are the same thing. A property is a
trait or attribute of something, a characteristic quality or
distinctive feature, and as such, quantity is an assumed property, a
variable "count" or measurement made or assumed by us of something
which has the property of quantity. It is not the thing itself, it is
a count of something which is a property of it.
My model of the universe claims that time is a property of matter and
that time passes in variable time rates for discrete visible objects
dependent upon their states of motion. That is my own conclusion of
SR's Twin Paradox et al experiments, and I am open to discussing that
as well. But time is a dimension as well; the fourth dimension of our
universe. As such, we must agree that it is a property of the universe
which is only applicable to visible matter. Thus, even a property of
the universe can apply in specific ways and/or only to specific things.
However, at the point where it is so applied, the property becomes a
force powered by the energy inherent in the visible body. In such a
way, the passage of time is an exercise of the power inherent in a body
having the property of time, because time is a property of the universe
just like energy is a property of the universe.
Maybe I can express the above more clearly thusly:
Time and energy are dimensional properties of our universe
That is, measured quantities,
Which are observed as a force
Only whenever there is an exercise of the power
which is based on the energy
inherent in visible objects.
The dimensional properties of our universe must now include energy as
well in a way which is not commonly included. We do not ordinarily
view energy as a dimension of our universe, but we have been doing that
very same thing all along, subconsciously, of course.
My claims now hold energy up in the limelight as another dimension of
our universe, and simply denying that cannot negate my claims.
Thus, the power of time imposed on visible objects is based on the
variable energy inherent in those objects, and if SR's inferred inverse
proportionality of the passage of time vs an object's state of motion
holds, it seems that the speed of an object somehow serves to slow the
passage of time for that object even without comparison to another
object.
Let me continue to respond to this post in my next post, as I have to
leave for now.
TomGee
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