New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050)



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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "Jay R. Yablon"
Date: 10 Nov 2005 07:47:54 PM
Object: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050)
Hello to everyone:
My newest paper, "General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the
Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter," just posted to
ArXiV.
The link is http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0511050.
I would very much appreciate any comments and input you may have.
Very truly yours,
Jay R. Yablon
_____________________________
Jay R. Yablon
Email:

.

User: "FrediFizzx"

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 11 Nov 2005 01:10:00 AM
"Jay R. Yablon" <jyablon@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:eLScf.67167$Bv6.22934@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
| Hello to everyone:
|
| My newest paper, "General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and
the
| Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter," just
posted to
| ArXiV.
|
| The link is http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0511050.
|
| I would very much appreciate any comments and input you may have.
Hi Jay,
As I mentioned before; pretty fantastic! Do you think you could do a
summary of the postulates and a run down of the major features here?
FrediFizzx
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.vacuum-physics.com
.
User: "Jay R. Yablon"

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 11 Nov 2005 09:54:27 AM

Hi Jay,

As I mentioned before; pretty fantastic! Do you think you could do a
summary of the postulates and a run down of the major features here?

FrediFizzx

Hi Fred:
The paper starts by recognizing that the conservation of total energy
(matter plus gravitation) for an electromagnetic field in General Relativity
(GR) is predicated on Maxwell's magnetic (second) equation = 0. This in
turn is predicated on an Abelian relationship between fields and potentials.
If one wishes to be able to consider non-Abelian field theories (such as
weak and strong interactions) in a GR context, then we must find a way to
free energy conservation from its dependence on Abelian fields. That is, we
need a way to conserve energy that works for non-Abelian as well as Abelian
fields.
To do this, we end up using certain mathematical identities that make use of
the duality formalism pioneered by Reinich and Wheeler based on Levi-Civita
formalism. This formalism inherently allows for magnetic monopoles,
although the ideas presented in THIS paper do not require or exclude
magnetic monopoles. (My earlier papers at
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0508257 and http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0509223
directly explore the magnetic monopole question, which to me is the oldest,
still unanswered question in science. Quark confinement is only ~30 years
old, the magnetic monopole question has this beat by a century.) These
mathematical identities, when used to ensure energy conservation for both
Abelian and non-Abelian fields, lead to a new energy tensor which resembles
the Maxwell tensor, but has a non-zero trace that can give rise to rest
mass. (My equation (2.23), on reflection, should be written in terms of
proper density, because it is not possible to transform the T^0k, T^jk=0
components to zero because of the ~g^uv proportionality that is discussed at
length in section 3.)
From there, we are able to derive a number of energy tensors which apply
equally to Abelian and non-Abelian interactions, and which have non-zero
trace energy (Tensor (3.25) is important to explore, because this tensor CAN
be put into a rest frame, i.e., T^0k, T^jk=0, and seems to derive the energy
out of E^2). And, we come to see that the kappa_v which describe the
exchange of energy between matter and the gravitational field is dependent
on the particular energy tensor one uses, i.e., just as there are a number
of different types of energy tensors which depend on the material phenomenon
being described, so too are there a number of different types of kappa_v and
these are linked to specific energy tensors. This leads to viewing the
Einstein equations as not only second, but also third-order equations in the
metric. This also leads us to understand the T^uv & kappa_v relationship in
terms of principles of equilibrium and disequilibrium which are
gravitationally-based and which also point toward how energy is converted
from one form to another.
But, what may be most significant, is that the T^uv and kappa_v for a
diversity of material phenomena ate all constructed out of the SAME field
strength tensors, just in different configurations, so, conversion of energy
from one form to another amounts to a reconfiguration of these fields. And,
since we know already how to treat these fields as quantum wavefunctions, we
can acquire a set of second and third order equations in the spacetime
metric wherein the second and third derivatives of the metric are set equal
to quantum wavefunctions. This suggests that once we can solve these
equations, we will find that the metric at any given point in spacetime is
itself a wavefunction with an expectation value, rather than a classical
object which has a definitive value. Thus, we quantize gravitation by
feeding into gravitation, wavefunctions derived from what we already known
from QED and QCD and QWD (weak interaction), which sets second and third
order constraint on the metric and allows quantum mechanics to be considered
in a non-linear gravitational context.
My main postulate -- which I will expand on in later reply to Dr. Photon, is
that we build new physics very conservatively, from what works. In my view,
this means three ingredients: Maxwell's electrodynamics, General Relativity,
and Yang Mills / non-Abelian gauge theory. Nothing else unless compelled.
The fourth ingredient I use liberally, is electric / magnetic duality, which
is perhaps less traditional. Duality can be seen both as a "passive
formalism" and an "active symmetry." That is, as a mathematical
proposition, one can use the duality formalism to represent known phenomenon
in different mathematical notation (i.e., P^u = *F^tu_t to represent a
magnetic monopole current and P^u = *F^tu_t = 0 to represent the second
Maxwell equation for vanishing magnetic monopoles), and one can make use of
certain identities (such as (2.1) through (2.5) here) which utilize this
formalism, without making any suppositions one way or the other about the
existence or non-existence of magnetic or chromomagnetic monopoles. That is
how duality is used, passively, in this paper. Additionally, one can use
duality actively as a symmetry principle, to pursue questions such as "why
do we not seem to observe magnetic monopoles in nature?" and "if magnetic
monopoles do exist, how do they hide at low energies?" This is what I do in
my other two papers, to arrive at the view that magnetic monopoles can be
used to explain .003 out of the .005 NuTeV anomaly, and that the other .002
is accounted for with weak magnetic monopoles (which some have called the
Z').
So, that's the basic overview. I'll say more as I can squeeze out some time
to respond to other posts.
Best to all,
Jay.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 14 Nov 2005 01:07:26 AM
Hi Jay,
I took a quick amateur look on your paper and there was couple
points which I noticed although I don't master tensor mathematics
as well as you. Please take a look my comments (questions) below.
Best Regards,
Hannu
Jay R. Yablon wrote:

Hi Jay,

As I mentioned before; pretty fantastic! Do you think you could do a
summary of the postulates and a run down of the major features here?

FrediFizzx


Hi Fred:

The paper starts by recognizing that the conservation of total energy
(matter plus gravitation) for an electromagnetic field in General Relativity
(GR) is predicated on Maxwell's magnetic (second) equation = 0. This in

I have understood that the total energy is ill defined concept in
General Relativity ?
How you have defined for example total gavitational energy in your
paper ?

turn is predicated on an Abelian relationship between fields and potentials.
If one wishes to be able to consider non-Abelian field theories (such as
weak and strong interactions) in a GR context, then we must find a way to
free energy conservation from its dependence on Abelian fields. That is, we
need a way to conserve energy that works for non-Abelian as well as Abelian
fields.

To do this, we end up using certain mathematical identities that make use of
the duality formalism pioneered by Reinich and Wheeler based on Levi-Civita
formalism. This formalism inherently allows for magnetic monopoles,
although the ideas presented in THIS paper do not require or exclude
magnetic monopoles. (My earlier papers at
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0508257 and http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0509223
directly explore the magnetic monopole question, which to me is the oldest,
still unanswered question in science. Quark confinement is only ~30 years
old, the magnetic monopole question has this beat by a century.) These
mathematical identities, when used to ensure energy conservation for both
Abelian and non-Abelian fields, lead to a new energy tensor which resembles
the Maxwell tensor, but has a non-zero trace that can give rise to rest
mass. (My equation (2.23), on reflection, should be written in terms of
proper density, because it is not possible to transform the T^0k, T^jk=0
components to zero because of the ~g^uv proportionality that is discussed at
length in section 3.)

From there, we are able to derive a number of energy tensors which apply
equally to Abelian and non-Abelian interactions, and which have non-zero
trace energy (Tensor (3.25) is important to explore, because this tensor CAN
be put into a rest frame, i.e., T^0k, T^jk=0, and seems to derive the energy
out of E^2). And, we come to see that the kappa_v which describe the
exchange of energy between matter and the gravitational field is dependent
on the particular energy tensor one uses, i.e., just as there are a number
of different types of energy tensors which depend on the material phenomenon
being described, so too are there a number of different types of kappa_v and
these are linked to specific energy tensors. This leads to viewing the
Einstein equations as not only second, but also third-order equations in the
metric. This also leads us to understand the T^uv & kappa_v relationship in
terms of principles of equilibrium and disequilibrium which are
gravitationally-based and which also point toward how energy is converted
from one form to another.

But, what may be most significant, is that the T^uv and kappa_v for a
diversity of material phenomena ate all constructed out of the SAME field
strength tensors, just in different configurations, so, conversion of energy
from one form to another amounts to a reconfiguration of these fields. And,
since we know already how to treat these fields as quantum wavefunctions, we
can acquire a set of second and third order equations in the spacetime
metric wherein the second and third derivatives of the metric are set equal
to quantum wavefunctions. This suggests that once we can solve these
equations, we will find that the metric at any given point in spacetime is
itself a wavefunction with an expectation value, rather than a classical
object which has a definitive value. Thus, we quantize gravitation by
feeding into gravitation, wavefunctions derived from what we already known
from QED and QCD and QWD (weak interaction), which sets second and third
order constraint on the metric and allows quantum mechanics to be considered
in a non-linear gravitational context.

My main postulate -- which I will expand on in later reply to Dr. Photon, is
that we build new physics very conservatively, from what works. In my view,
this means three ingredients: Maxwell's electrodynamics, General Relativity,
and Yang Mills / non-Abelian gauge theory. Nothing else unless compelled.

The fourth ingredient I use liberally, is electric / magnetic duality, which
is perhaps less traditional. Duality can be seen both as a "passive
formalism" and an "active symmetry." That is, as a mathematical
proposition, one can use the duality formalism to represent known phenomenon
in different mathematical notation (i.e., P^u = *F^tu_t to represent a
magnetic monopole current and P^u = *F^tu_t = 0 to represent the second
Maxwell equation for vanishing magnetic monopoles), and one can make use of
certain identities (such as (2.1) through (2.5) here) which utilize this
formalism, without making any suppositions one way or the other about the
existence or non-existence of magnetic or chromomagnetic monopoles. That is
how duality is used, passively, in this paper. Additionally, one can use
duality actively as a symmetry principle, to pursue questions such as "why
do we not seem to observe magnetic monopoles in nature?" and "if magnetic
monopoles do exist, how do they hide at low energies?" This is what I do in
my other two papers, to arrive at the view that magnetic monopoles can be
used to explain .003 out of the .005 NuTeV anomaly, and that the other .002
is accounted for with weak magnetic monopoles (which some have called the
Z').

So, that's the basic overview. I'll say more as I can squeeze out some time
to respond to other posts.

I notice end of your paper the group of equations which sems to have
solution same as Resissner-Nordstrom solution as a line element
( metric of charged black hole), if I looked right ?
Serious Problems with this Reisnerr-Nordstrom solution are that with
time like geodesic it is possible to avoid hitting the singularity
and also that if black hole would have charge then the whole space
would be also charged too which is impossible ?


Best to all,

Jay.

.
User: "Jay R. Yablon"

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 14 Nov 2005 09:42:26 AM
Hi Hannu, see inline:


I have understood that the total energy is ill defined concept in
General Relativity ?
How you have defined for example total gavitational energy in your
paper ?

Well, total energy is defined mathematically as an energy for which
T^uv_;u=0, and the zero must be ensured identically. That is, T^uv_;u must
be set to a combination of fields which is identically equal to zero, in all
situations, for Abelian and non-Abelian interactions alike.


I notice end of your paper the group of equations which sems to have
solution same as Resissner-Nordstrom solution as a line element
( metric of charged black hole), if I looked right ?

Serious Problems with this Reisnerr-Nordstrom solution are that with
time like geodesic it is possible to avoid hitting the singularity
and also that if black hole would have charge then the whole space
would be also charged too which is impossible ?

Well, Hannu, you are right to notice the similarities because I am using the
Schwarzschild solution. But, this is not intended as a real-world solution,
but just as an example to give people a concrete idea of what I am talking
about when I say that one can quantize gravity by feeding quantum mechanical
wavefunctions for fields and currents directly into the Einstein equations
at second and third differential order in the spacetime metric g_uv, and
then solving for G_uv to arrive at a metric wavefunction fully grounded in
empirical knowledge from QED and QCD and QWeakD.
Jay.
.
User: "Tom Roberts"

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, andthe Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 14 Nov 2005 01:12:24 PM
Jay R. Yablon wrote:

Hannu wrote:

I have understood that the total energy is ill defined concept in
General Relativity ?


Well, total energy is defined mathematically as an energy for which
T^uv_;u=0, and the zero must be ensured identically.

T^uv is local energy-momentum _density_, not _total_energy_. To obtain
total energy you need to integrate the local density over the region of
interest, and that's the problem: in general for a curved manifold such
an integral is not well defined.
There are specific cases for which it can be done, such as:
* asymptotically-flat manifolds for which the region of interest
is compact with boundary in the asymptotic region.
* static manifolds (plus some conditions which I forget...)
Tom Roberts tjroberts@lucent.com
.
User: "Jay R. Yablon"

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 14 Nov 2005 01:55:44 PM

Jay R. Yablon wrote:

Hannu wrote:

I have understood that the total energy is ill defined concept in
General Relativity ?


Well, total energy is defined mathematically as an energy for which
T^uv_;u=0, and the zero must be ensured identically.


T^uv is local energy-momentum _density_, not _total_energy_.

Agreed.
To obtain

total energy you need to integrate the local density over the region of
interest, and that's the problem: in general for a curved manifold such an
integral is not well defined.

Tom,
Are you speaking of a curved spacetime problem or a quantum problem? For
curvature, so long as we have g^uv defined at each point, and the scalar
sqrt(-g), we can in principle take a volume integral "Integral sqrt(-g) T^00
d^3X" that will relate observed physics to choice of coordinates. To Ken
Tucker: Is that right? The problem seems to be, for ANY tesnor defined at
a "local," i.e., theoretically infinitesmal point in spacetime, how do we
carry out integration over a finite region when "points" in physics are not
infinitesmal. It seems almost a problem with using calculus, where delta
x --> dx --> 0, and it suggests that in physics, the best we can do is delta
x where delta is small but finite.
Jay.


There are specific cases for which it can be done, such as:
* asymptotically-flat manifolds for which the region of interest
is compact with boundary in the asymptotic region.
* static manifolds (plus some conditions which I forget...)


Tom Roberts


.
User: "Tom Roberts"

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, andthe Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 15 Nov 2005 11:56:29 AM
Jay R. Yablon wrote:

Tom Roberts wrote:

T^uv is local energy-momentum _density_, not _total_energy_.


Agreed.

To obtain
total energy you need to integrate the local density over the region of
interest, and that's the problem: in general for a curved manifold such an
integral is not well defined.


Are you speaking of a curved spacetime problem or a quantum problem?

I am continually amazed at people around here who think they can respond
to articles without reading them. Please elevate your eyes to the part
of my post that you quoted above and actually READ it -- it contains a
clear and direct answer to your question.

For
curvature, so long as we have g^uv defined at each point, and the scalar
sqrt(-g), we can in principle take a volume integral "Integral sqrt(-g) T^00
d^3X" that will relate observed physics to choice of coordinates.

Sure, you can do anything you like. That does not mean it makes sense.
In this case, the value you get will be dependent on the coordinates you
choose, so the result cannot have any physical significance.
BTW: sqrt(-g) is not a scalar....

The problem seems to be, for ANY tesnor defined at
a "local," i.e., theoretically infinitesmal point in spacetime, how do we
carry out integration over a finite region when "points" in physics are not
infinitesmal.

This is nonsense. Points in a manifold have zero extent.
The problem is that for a given integral on a manifold to make sense the
integrand must satisfy certain integrability conditions (which basically
ensure that the integrand is a function on the manifold, as opposed to
being something that is path dependent inside the region of
integration). For the kind of integral required to compute "total energy
in a region" those integrability conditions are essentially that the
Riemann curvature tensor vanish throughout the region of integration.
This can be traced back to the fact that the energy-momentum tensor is a
rank-2 tensor, and to obtain a scalar integral of it one must contract
it with two vectors, and that introduces path dependence into the
integrand (I'm speaking a bit loosely here; this is not my area of
expertise).
For instance, above you wanted to integrate T^00. That is explicitly
coordinate (basis) dependent. Probably what you really want is to
integrate T_uv U^u U^v where U^u are the components of an observer's
4-velocity -- then you get the energy density as measured by that
observer. But note that expressing it this way in an invariant manner
does not ensure that such a volume integral makes sense; in general it
does not. <shrug>
There's also the problem that U is defined only along the observer's
trajectory, not throughout the volume over which you want to integrate....

It seems almost a problem with using calculus, where delta
x --> dx --> 0, and it suggests that in physics, the best we can do is delta
x where delta is small but finite.

Not true. Modern theoretical physics (specifically GR) is fully
consistent with real analysis.
But nobody really expects GR to be valid all the way own
to the Planck scale. _Mathematically_ it is well founded
on the differential geometry of smooth manifolds, but the
world is not expected to be well-modeled by a manifold
at such small scales. You seem to be trying to apply
this model vs world problem to the mathematics of the
model -- that's invalid.
Tom Roberts tjroberts@lucent.com
.
User: "Ken S. Tucker"

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 15 Nov 2005 06:59:15 PM
Tom Roberts wrote:

Jay R. Yablon wrote:

....

For
curvature, so long as we have g^uv defined at each point, and the scalar
sqrt(-g), we can in principle take a volume integral "Integral sqrt(-g) T^00
d^3X" that will relate observed physics to choice of coordinates.


Sure, you can do anything you like. That does not mean it makes sense.
In this case, the value you get will be dependent on the coordinates you
choose, so the result cannot have any physical significance.

Tom you should read Tucker's essay...
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/KST/GR_Charge_Couple3.pdf
(courtesy of Fred Diether)
If there's something not appropriately defined let me know.
I recommend you learn everything you can about a pair of
charges, because you can sum them to create a universe.
....

But nobody really expects GR to be valid all the way down
to the Planck scale. _Mathematically_ it is well founded
on the differential geometry of smooth manifolds, but the
world is not expected to be well-modeled by a manifold
at such small scales. You seem to be trying to apply
this model vs world problem to the mathematics of the
model -- that's invalid.

Classical descriptions of GR evolved from Newton's *fluxions*
and so inherited the "smooth manifold", but as the essay
shows GR doesn't need a manifold, just a relation, after-all
it's called General Relativity, i.e. it's about relations.
Regards
Ken S. Tucker
.
User: "Sue..."

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 16 Nov 2005 04:36:42 AM
Ken S. Tucker wrote:

Tom Roberts wrote:

Jay R. Yablon wrote:

...

For
curvature, so long as we have g^uv defined at each point, and the scalar
sqrt(-g), we can in principle take a volume integral "Integral sqrt(-g) T^00
d^3X" that will relate observed physics to choice of coordinates.


Sure, you can do anything you like. That does not mean it makes sense.
In this case, the value you get will be dependent on the coordinates you
choose, so the result cannot have any physical significance.


Tom you should read Tucker's essay...

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/KST/GR_Charge_Couple3.pdf
(courtesy of Fred Diether)

If there's something not appropriately defined let me know.
I recommend you learn everything you can about a pair of
charges, because you can sum them to create a universe.
...

But nobody really expects GR to be valid all the way down
to the Planck scale. _Mathematically_ it is well founded
on the differential geometry of smooth manifolds, but the
world is not expected to be well-modeled by a manifold
at such small scales. You seem to be trying to apply
this model vs world problem to the mathematics of the
model -- that's invalid.


Classical descriptions of GR evolved from Newton's *fluxions*
and so inherited the "smooth manifold", but as the essay
shows GR doesn't need a manifold, just a relation, after-all
it's called General Relativity, i.e. it's about relations.

Hmmm ....
Charge pairs have strong SOL relations and conveinently quantize to
2(0.511MeV).
Induced dipoles have weak bulk_mass_damped relations...
and I doubt there is anything conveinent or even useful
about quantizing them. Just my heritical opinion tho.
Sue...

Regards
Ken S. Tucker

.
User: "Ken S. Tucker"

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 16 Nov 2005 12:02:51 PM
Sue... wrote:

Ken S. Tucker wrote:

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/KST/GR_Charge_Couple3.pdf
(courtesy of Fred Diether)
Classical descriptions of GR evolved from Newton's *fluxions*
and so inherited the "smooth manifold", but as the essay
shows GR doesn't need a manifold, just a relation, after-all
it's called General Relativity, i.e. it's about relations.
Ken

Hmmm ....
Charge pairs have strong SOL relations and conveinently quantize to
2(0.511MeV).
Induced dipoles have weak bulk_mass_damped relations...
and I doubt there is anything conveinent or even useful
about quantizing them. Just my heritical opinion tho.
Sue...

Quantization per say, is not really that difficult, it's detailed.
An example would be the emission of a photon, that requires
the relative movement of two charges. Doing that by "hand"
is one way but I think it's easier to use computers.
Ken
.
User: "Autymn D. C."

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 16 Nov 2005 08:38:17 PM
per say -> per se
difficult, -> difficult;
.


User: "Autymn D. C."

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 16 Nov 2005 08:37:44 PM
conveinently -> conveniently
conveinent -> convenient
heritical -> heretical
.
User: "Sue..."

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 19 Nov 2005 04:58:28 AM
Autymn D. C. wrote:

conveinently -> conveniently
conveinent -> convenient
heritical -> heretical

At least you are paying attention.
Lorentz -> Lorenz ?
Sue...
.




User: "Jay R. Yablon"

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 15 Nov 2005 05:33:21 PM
Tom,
Thanks for your reply. Your discussion of integrating over manifolds is
very helpful, especially since I have been giving a lot of consideration to
how one might think about the topological turbulence at the Planck length
and find consistent mathematical tools to model it.
Best,
Jay.
--
_____________________________
Jay R. Yablon
910 Northumberland Drive
Schenectady, New York 12309-2814
Phone / Fax: 518-377-6737
Email:

"Tom Roberts" <
> wrote in message
news:hjpef.85$rq3.80@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...

Jay R. Yablon wrote:

Tom Roberts wrote:

T^uv is local energy-momentum _density_, not _total_energy_.


Agreed.

To obtain
total energy you need to integrate the local density over the region of
interest, and that's the problem: in general for a curved manifold such
an integral is not well defined.


Are you speaking of a curved spacetime problem or a quantum problem?


I am continually amazed at people around here who think they can respond
to articles without reading them. Please elevate your eyes to the part of
my post that you quoted above and actually READ it -- it contains a clear
and direct answer to your question.


For curvature, so long as we have g^uv defined at each point, and the
scalar sqrt(-g), we can in principle take a volume integral "Integral
sqrt(-g) T^00 d^3X" that will relate observed physics to choice of
coordinates.


Sure, you can do anything you like. That does not mean it makes sense. In
this case, the value you get will be dependent on the coordinates you
choose, so the result cannot have any physical significance.

BTW: sqrt(-g) is not a scalar....


The problem seems to be, for ANY tesnor defined at a "local," i.e.,
theoretically infinitesmal point in spacetime, how do we carry out
integration over a finite region when "points" in physics are not
infinitesmal.


This is nonsense. Points in a manifold have zero extent.

The problem is that for a given integral on a manifold to make sense the
integrand must satisfy certain integrability conditions (which basically
ensure that the integrand is a function on the manifold, as opposed to
being something that is path dependent inside the region of integration).
For the kind of integral required to compute "total energy in a region"
those integrability conditions are essentially that the Riemann curvature
tensor vanish throughout the region of integration. This can be traced
back to the fact that the energy-momentum tensor is a rank-2 tensor, and
to obtain a scalar integral of it one must contract it with two vectors,
and that introduces path dependence into the integrand (I'm speaking a bit
loosely here; this is not my area of expertise).


For instance, above you wanted to integrate T^00. That is explicitly
coordinate (basis) dependent. Probably what you really want is to
integrate T_uv U^u U^v where U^u are the components of an observer's
4-velocity -- then you get the energy density as measured by that
observer. But note that expressing it this way in an invariant manner does
not ensure that such a volume integral makes sense; in general it does
not. <shrug>

There's also the problem that U is defined only along the observer's
trajectory, not throughout the volume over which you want to integrate....


It seems almost a problem with using calculus, where delta x --> dx -->
0, and it suggests that in physics, the best we can do is delta x where
delta is small but finite.


Not true. Modern theoretical physics (specifically GR) is fully consistent
with real analysis.

But nobody really expects GR to be valid all the way own
to the Planck scale. _Mathematically_ it is well founded
on the differential geometry of smooth manifolds, but the
world is not expected to be well-modeled by a manifold
at such small scales. You seem to be trying to apply
this model vs world problem to the mathematics of the
model -- that's invalid.


Tom Roberts


.


User: "Ken S. Tucker"

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 14 Nov 2005 03:11:53 PM
Jay R. Yablon wrote:

Jay R. Yablon wrote:

Hannu wrote:

I have understood that the total energy is ill defined concept in
General Relativity ?


Well, total energy is defined mathematically as an energy for which
T^uv_;u=0, and the zero must be ensured identically.


T^uv is local energy-momentum _density_, not _total_energy_.


Agreed.

To obtain

total energy you need to integrate the local density over the region of
interest, and that's the problem: in general for a curved manifold such an
integral is not well defined.


Tom,

Are you speaking of a curved spacetime problem or a quantum problem? For
curvature, so long as we have g^uv defined at each point, and the scalar
sqrt(-g), we can in principle take a volume integral "Integral sqrt(-g) T^00
d^3X" that will relate observed physics to choice of coordinates. To Ken
Tucker: Is that right?

Oops I was lurking...
I think so. The T^00 define a static situation, like two
distant observers A and B at relative rest relating by
radar. They will have a non-ambiguous result in their
distances, although there would be differences since
their clocks may be at different potentials and that
establishes the delta of the sqrt(-g) that occurs between
them.

The problem seems to be, for ANY tesnor defined at
a "local," i.e., theoretically infinitesmal point in spacetime, how do we
carry out integration over a finite region when "points" in physics are not
infinitesmal. It seems almost a problem with using calculus, where delta
x --> dx --> 0, and it suggests that in physics, the best we can do is delta
x where delta is small but finite.
Jay.

The PoR can be clarified by defining it by
U_i =0 , i = 1,2,3.
For example an invariant, (Planck's)
h = p_u x^u = p_0 x^0 = rest energy * rest time
= 6.626*10^-27 ergs.seconds
when p_i = p*U_i =0.
The U_i =0 leads directly to Minkowski's ds^2 = dt^2 - dr^2.
Regards
Ken S. Tucker
.
User: "Ken S. Tucker"

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 14 Nov 2005 04:55:08 PM
Ken S. Tucker wrote:

Jay R. Yablon wrote:

Jay R. Yablon wrote:

Hannu wrote:

I have understood that the total energy is ill defined concept in
General Relativity ?


Well, total energy is defined mathematically as an energy for which
T^uv_;u=0, and the zero must be ensured identically.


T^uv is local energy-momentum _density_, not _total_energy_.


Agreed.

To obtain

total energy you need to integrate the local density over the region of
interest, and that's the problem: in general for a curved manifold such an
integral is not well defined.


Tom,

Are you speaking of a curved spacetime problem or a quantum problem? For
curvature, so long as we have g^uv defined at each point, and the scalar
sqrt(-g), we can in principle take a volume integral "Integral sqrt(-g) T^00
d^3X" that will relate observed physics to choice of coordinates. To Ken
Tucker: Is that right?


Oops I was lurking...
I think so. The T^00 define a static situation, like two
distant observers A and B at relative rest relating by
radar. They will have a non-ambiguous result in their
distances, although there would be differences since
their clocks may be at different potentials and that
establishes the delta of the sqrt(-g) that occurs between
them.

I'd like to add, as a radio technician, that a standing
wave can always be created in a circuit, so a standing
radio wave could always be created between A and B,
with each observer A and B agreeing to a fixed number
of cycles separating their respective locations, (although
differ on the frequency depending upon their relative
potentials).

The problem seems to be, for ANY tesnor defined at
a "local," i.e., theoretically infinitesmal point in spacetime, how do we
carry out integration over a finite region when "points" in physics are not
infinitesmal. It seems almost a problem with using calculus, where delta
x --> dx --> 0, and it suggests that in physics, the best we can do is delta
x where delta is small but finite.
Jay.


The PoR can be clarified by defining it by

U_i =0 , i = 1,2,3.

For example an invariant, (Planck's)

h = p_u x^u = p_0 x^0 = rest energy * rest time

= 6.626*10^-27 ergs.seconds

when p_i = p*U_i =0.

The U_i =0 leads directly to Minkowski's ds^2 = dt^2 - dr^2.

Regards
Ken S. Tucker

.
User: "brian a m stuckless"

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 15 Nov 2005 03:45:15 AM
Ken S. Tucker wrote: > > Ken S. Tucker wrote: > > Jay R. Yablon wrote:

Jay R. Yablon wrote: > > > >> Hannu wrote:

I have understood that the total energy is ill defined concept in
General Relativity ?


Well, total energy is defined mathematically as an energy for which
T^uv_;u=0, and the zero must be ensured identically.


T^uv is local energy-momentum _density_, not _total_energy_.

T^uv is NOT *arithmetically RELATED* to E^2 = m^2 + p^2, in GR.!!

Agreed.

To obtain

total energy you need to integrate the local density over the region of
interest, and that's the problem: in general for a curved manifold such an
integral is not well defined.


Tom,

Are you speaking of a curved spacetime problem or a quantum problem?

NATURE doesn"t care if MKSA (meter)^2 is "curved", "quantum" or BOTH.!!

-- For curvature, so long as we have g^uv defined at each point,

Try just THREE points ..HERE.!!

and the scalar sqrt(-g), we can in principle take a volume integral
"Integral sqrt(-g) T^00 d^3X" that will relate observed physics to
choice of coordinates. To Ken Tucker: Is that right?

No.!! "Observed physics" (i.e. mass) does NOT (CANNOT or will NOT)
*arithmetically* RELATE to the GR "Integral sqrt(-g) T^00 d^3X".!!

Oops I was lurking...
I think so. The T^00 define a static situation, like two
distant observers A and B at relative rest relating by
radar. --

Let T^00 define a static situation, like THREE distant observers
A, B and C, at relative rest relating by radar, E^2 = m^2 + p^2.
Most folks may be better able to grasp Euclid's a^2 = b^2 + c^2.
Most folks might BEST be able to grasp capitals A^2 = B^2 + C^2.!!

-- They will have a non-ambiguous result in their
distances, although there would be differences since
their clocks may be at different potentials and that
establishes the delta of the sqrt(-g) that occurs between
them.

I'd like to add, as a radio technician, that a standing
wave can always be created in a circuit, so a standing
radio wave could always be created between A and B,
with each observer A and B agreeing to a fixed number
of cycles separating their respective locations, (although
differ on the frequency depending upon their relative
potentials).

The problem seems to be, for ANY tesnor defined at
a "local," i.e., theoretically infinitesmal point in spacetime, how do we
carry out integration over a finite region when "points" in physics are not
infinitesmal. It seems almost a problem with using calculus, where delta
x --> dx --> 0, and it suggests that in physics, the best we can do is delta
x where delta is small but finite.
Jay.


The PoR can be clarified by defining it by

U_i =0 , i = 1,2,3.

For example an invariant, (Planck's)

h = p_u x^u = p_0 x^0 = rest energy * rest time

Planck's, h = k*c*{e}
= 2*#*{e}
= 2*(Magnetic Flux quantum)*(Electric charge)
..in MKSA -> 2*(Webers -> Volt*seconds)*(Ampere*seconds)
..in MKSA -> 2*(Volts)^2*(seconds)^2 / (Ohms)
..in MKSA -> 2*(Ohms)*(Amperes)^2*(seconds)^2
..in MKSA -> 2*(Volts)*(Amperes)*(seconds)^2
..in MKSA -> 2*(Watts)*(seconds)^2
..in MKSA -> 2*(Joules)*(seconds)
..in MKSA -> Angular momentum.
NO Angular momentum expression in GR (i.e. E^2 = m^2 + p^2).
Note MKSA is the OLD SI GiORGi MKSA SYSTEM of standard MEASURE.
Note MKSA is NOW finished; Outdone by: NEW SI GUESS STANDARD.!!

= 6.626*10^-27 ergs.seconds

= 6.626*10^-34 Joules.seconds
Note that you are mixing up your STANDARds, there, dooOP.
Planck's h = 6.535457053*10^-34 NEW SI Joule*seconds, iSS.
PLANCK's h = SLiGHTLY different number in NEW SI GUESS iSS.
Planck's h = a transcendental mathematical constant, like c.
Planck's h = a transcendental mathematical constant, like pi.

when p_i = p*U_i =0.

The U_i =0 leads directly to Minkowski's ds^2 = dt^2 - dr^2.

$ Euclidian PROOF
So RiGHT back to PYTHAGORAS THEOREM: p^2 = e^2 - m^2
..or in non-Ph.Tivity Euclidian: c^2 = b^2 - a^2
..or in general, SiMPLiFYs to .. z^2 = y^2 - x^2
..U_i =0 leads to Minkowski's ds^2 = dt^2 - dr^2.
GR "Integral sqrt(-g) T^00 d^3X" does not RELATE GR m^2, at all.!!
brian a m stuckless

<> >><> >><> >><> >><>
Regards > > Ken S. Tucker

.
User: "Ken S. Tucker"

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 15 Nov 2005 05:40:18 AM
brian a m stuckless wrote:
....

Ken S. Tucker wrote:

The U_i =0 leads directly to Minkowski's ds^2 = dt^2 - dr^2.


$ Euclidian PROOF
So RiGHT back to PYTHAGORAS THEOREM: p^2 = e^2 - m^2
..or in non-Ph.Tivity Euclidian: c^2 = b^2 - a^2
..or in general, SiMPLiFYs to .. z^2 = y^2 - x^2
..U_i =0 leads to Minkowski's ds^2 = dt^2 - dr^2.

Brian you saw that too. Way to go man! I did this way...
0 = U_i = g_iu U^u = g_ij U^j + g_i0 U^0
g_i0 = - g_ij dx^j/dx^0
ds^2 = g_uv dx^u dx^v = g_00 dx^00 - g_ij dx^ij
g_00 = g_11 = g_22 = g_33 =1
No more negatives => YEA, gives ya...
ds^2 = dt^2 - dr^2 .
Ken
.






User: ""

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 16 Nov 2005 04:29:48 AM
Jay R. Yablon wrote:

Hi Hannu, see inline:


I have understood that the total energy is ill defined concept in
General Relativity ?
How you have defined for example total gavitational energy in your
paper ?


Well, total energy is defined mathematically as an energy for which
T^uv_;u=0, and the zero must be ensured identically. That is, T^uv_;u must
be set to a combination of fields which is identically equal to zero, in all
situations, for Abelian and non-Abelian interactions alike.

Steve Carlip wrote "Gravitational Potential in GR" article, 23.02.1998
in sci.physics.relativty:
"The principle of equivalence implies that there can be no covariant
gravitational stress-energy tensor --- one can always choose
coordinates
in which the geodesics are arbitrarily close to straight lines in a
small region,
which implies that the gravitational energy in that region is
arbitrarily
close to zero; but a tensor that vanishes in any coordinate system
vanishes
in every coordinate system."
Is your energy tensor t^u _v of the gravitational field really
covariant
gravitational stress-energy tensor or what it is if not ?
I found one nice explanation also about the problem:
Tom Roberts wrote "Re: Gravitational Potential Energy" article,
27.6.1998
in sci.physics.relativity:
"In GR, if one selects a gven "frame of reference" (in the usual SR
sense),
one can still change coordinates in arbitrary many ways, such that
the new coordinates are still "at rest" in that frame, but yet the
quantities
computed for potential energy and kinetic energy can have ANY possible
values.
In a given set of coordinates these quantities have definite values,
but as
there is no preferred coordinate system so is there no unique value for
PE
or KE. In other words, they are not well defned."


I notice end of your paper the group of equations which sems to have
solution same as Resissner-Nordstrom solution as a line element
( metric of charged black hole), if I looked right ?

Serious Problems with this Reisnerr-Nordstrom solution are that with
time like geodesic it is possible to avoid hitting the singularity
and also that if black hole would have charge then the whole space
would be also charged too which is impossible ?


Well, Hannu, you are right to notice the similarities because I am using the
Schwarzschild solution. But, this is not intended as a real-world solution,

I notice that you mention the Kerr solution in your paper, but this
have
a problem too: H-M explained many years ago that if the black hole
in center of space would rotate then the planet which is center of
coordinative colour
electricity signals (planet orbits the great neutrino crystall
collection (big ball) in
center of the space) would be shifted into the other side of this big
ball. I understood
that this would block colour electricity signals (its mass would change
colour electricity
signals to black colour (= no colour electricity)). This is why at
least this
black hole is not possible to rotate. I assume that this is case for
all
black holes. In other words black holes are not possible to rotate ???
Of course the Schwarzschild solution is special case for both mentioned
black hole types.

but just as an example to give people a concrete idea of what I am talking
about when I say that one can quantize gravity by feeding quantum mechanical
wavefunctions for fields and currents directly into the Einstein equations
at second and third differential order in the spacetime metric g_uv, and
then solving for G_uv to arrive at a metric wavefunction fully grounded in
empirical knowledge from QED and QCD and QWeakD.

Jay.

.
User: ""

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 19 Nov 2005 03:51:28 AM
h=2Eporopudas@luukku.com wrote:

Jay R. Yablon wrote:

Hi Hannu, see inline:


I have understood that the total energy is ill defined concept in
General Relativity ?
How you have defined for example total gavitational energy in your
paper ?


Well, total energy is defined mathematically as an energy for which
T^uv_;u=3D0, and the zero must be ensured identically. That is, T^uv_;=

u must

be set to a combination of fields which is identically equal to zero, i=

n all

situations, for Abelian and non-Abelian interactions alike.


Steve Carlip wrote "Gravitational Potential in GR" article, 23.02.1998
in sci.physics.relativty:

"The principle of equivalence implies that there can be no covariant
gravitational stress-energy tensor --- one can always choose
coordinates
in which the geodesics are arbitrarily close to straight lines in a
small region,
which implies that the gravitational energy in that region is
arbitrarily
close to zero; but a tensor that vanishes in any coordinate system
vanishes
in every coordinate system."

Is your energy tensor t^u _v of the gravitational field really
covariant
gravitational stress-energy tensor or what it is if not ?

I found one explanation about t^u_v in the book:
Tolman, R. C., 1962
Relativity Thermodynamics and Cosmology
Oxford at the Clarendon Press.
502 pages, pp 222-225 .
This is in the chapter:
"87. Re-expression of the equations of mechanics in the form
of an ordinary divergence"
t^u_v is defined in equation (87.12) and it is called the
PSEUDO-TENSOR density of gravitational energy and momentum.
t^a_b =3D (1/16Pi)[ -g^uv_b dL/dg^uv_a + g^a_b L + 2g^a_b A (-g)^(1/2)]
(87.12)
Pi =3D 3.14159..., A =3D cosmological constant, L Lagrangian function,
d is ordinary partial derivation symbol.
L=3D(-g)^(1/2) g^uv [ {ua,b} {vb,a} - {uv,a} {ab,b} ] (87.1)
{ ...} are Christoffel three-index symbols.
Listed equations in this chapter are numbered
from (87.1) to (87.16).
In the end of the chapter is mentioned that since t^v_u IS NOT TRUE
TENSOR DENSITY, however, we shall NOT HAVE THESE SIMPLE
RESULTS IN ALL COORDINATE SYSTEMS.


I found one nice explanation also about the problem:
Tom Roberts wrote "Re: Gravitational Potential Energy" article,
27.6.1998
in sci.physics.relativity:

"In GR, if one selects a gven "frame of reference" (in the usual SR
sense),
one can still change coordinates in arbitrary many ways, such that
the new coordinates are still "at rest" in that frame, but yet the
quantities
computed for potential energy and kinetic energy can have ANY possible
values.
In a given set of coordinates these quantities have definite values,
but as
there is no preferred coordinate system so is there no unique value for
PE
or KE. In other words, they are not well defned."

I put below one interesting comment about
"A PREFERRED COORDINATE SYSTEM"
(Form H-M's explanations I know this exists.
H-M explained many years ago that the
center of the space (M87) must be taken into
account in calculations).
This could be helpfull in order to define
the total energy concept beter in GR ???
There was a discussion in sci.physics in the year 1992
about the subject =B4A "preferred reference frame" =B4 where
Matt McIrvin(Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA)
wrote 15 Aug 92 17:49:08 GMT :
"hi...@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu (Jason W. Hinson) writes:

The following is a science fictional excursion discussing the possibility
of space-time having a preferred frame of reference without violating
relativity. My request is that someone tell me how we know that it cannot
be true.

=C4description of a physics in which, to paraphrase a bit, instantaneous
communication ca occur, but only along a preferred set of spacelike
surfaces=C5
We do not know that ths cannot be true. Your statement that there would
be no problem with causality is correct, since spacelike communicaion
-->
causality violation depends on the ability to change the spacelike
surface ( or in SR, the inertial frame) in which the communication is
instantaneous, and this proposal exlicitly removes the possibility.
It does "violate relativity" in the sence that it denies one of the
basic postulates, namely that *all* the laws of physics are the same
in all inertial frames. It doesn' t completely tear it apart, though;
it just turns it into a theory of some special subset of physics,
including all physics currently known. It doesn' t violate causality.
Rather than just say that the "ether" has the property that c is the
same in all frames, I' d say that the "ether" is only an ether for
these extra, instantaneous interactions, nd has no relevance to
anything else.
This is, as others and I have pointed out before, a nice
self-consistent
way to put faster-than-light travel into science fiction. It isn't
at odds with any data and doesn't introduce the possibility of time
travel into the past. All one needs to assume is some nonlocal
phenomenon which disobeys relativity in this way.
The other side of the coin is that there is absolutely no evidence for
any such thing, and no need to introduce it other than that it might
be nice to have. Relativistic covariance has turned out to be an
extraordinary successful framework in which to construct a model
of physics, and to most of us, at least, there seems to be no reason
to abandon it. But nothing currently known from experiment rules out
extra physics of the sort you describe.
--
Matt McIrvn, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA"



I notice end of your paper the group of equations which sems to have
solution same as Resissner-Nordstrom solution as a line element
( metric of charged black hole), if I looked right ?

Serious Problems with this Reisnerr-Nordstrom solution are that with
time like geodesic it is possible to avoid hitting the singularity
and also that if black hole would have charge then the whole space
would be also charged too which is impossible ?


Well, Hannu, you are right to notice the similarities because I am usin=

g the

Schwarzschild solution. But, this is not intended as a real-world solu=

tion,


I notice that you mention the Kerr solution in your paper, but this
have
a problem too: H-M explained many years ago that if the black hole
in center of space would rotate then the planet which is center of
coordinative colour
electricity signals (planet orbits the great neutrino crystall
collection (big ball) in
center of the space) would be shifted into the other side of this big
ball. I understood
that this would block colour electricity signals (its mass would change
colour electricity
signals to black colour (=3D no colour electricity)). This is why at
least this
black hole is not possible to rotate. I assume that this is case for
all
black holes. In other words black holes are not possible to rotate ???


Of course the Schwarzschild solution is special case for both mentioned
black hole types.


but just as an example to give people a concrete idea of what I am talk=

ing

about when I say that one can quantize gravity by feeding quantum mecha=

nical

wavefunctions for fields and currents directly into the Einstein equati=

ons

at second and third differential order in the spacetime metric g_uv, and
then solving for G_uv to arrive at a metric wavefunction fully grounded=

in

empirical knowledge from QED and QCD and QWeakD.
=20
Jay.

.
User: "Jay R. Yablon"

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 19 Nov 2005 08:27:50 AM
In reference to Hannu's quite pertinent discussion of the energy "pseudo"
tensor t^u _v of the gravitational field and whether it is truly covariant,
I copy below some remarks that I just posted to sci.research.
The set of relationships (2.34) in http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0511050, where
a particular covariant divergence
is converted to an ordinary one, are more important than I realized at
first. If you trace these relationships throughout the paper, they actually
allow us to convert the covariant divergence of the trace matter energy
tensor to an ordinary divergence, as I will detail in a subsequent write-up.
This, all at once, has a number of consequences.
First, this allows us to convert a 4-volume integral to a 3-surface integral
and thus derive a true conservation law for this energy tensor. And also,
to derive an energy momentum four-vector which describes a finite (not
infinitesimal) region of spacetime.
Second, this becomes a rare, special case in which one CAN extricate the
gravitational energy. That is, the t^u_v;u pseudo-vector becomes a true
covariant vector and identifies directly with kappa_v, and all of the
Christoffel terms cancel out which -- in the general case -- cause t^u_v;u
not= kappa_v.
Third, this solves a problem I have been racking my head about ever since I
posted the paper, pertaining to equilibrium and some discussions I have had
with Ken Tucker in sci.physics.relativity regarding whether kappa_v is zero
or non-zero and what this means for the exchange of energy between matter
and the gravitational field. For the PARTICULAR energy tensor (2.15), but,
as far as I can see, ONLY for this particular energy tensor, when kappa_v=0,
so too, t^u_v;u=0. (And in this special case, t^u_v;u, again, it a true
vector.) This, no energy is exchanged between matter and the gravitational
field, and kappa_v=0 is truly an equilibrium state. This is also related to
equation (2.40), and the fact that the energy tensor RomanT^uv ~ g^uv x
scalar, where scalar = sqrt(-g) E dot B.
For all the other energy tensors (I will carefully confirm this) in the
paper, t^u_v;u remains a pseudo-vector, and as DRL correctly points out, it
is NOT= to the vector kappa_v. This means that for all the other energy
tensors, when kappa_v=0, we still have t^u_v;u not=0, and so, energy
continues to be exchanged between matter and the gravitational field. The
"biasing" of the Einstein equation which I discuss in the paper then appears
to be toward energy tensor (2.15), because this "special case" energy tensor
is the only energy tensor for which, when kappa_v=0, the exchange of energy
also ceases, t^u_v;u=0, thus specifying an equilibrium state.
Again, I will post detailed calculations to show this (may be awhile; going
away this weekend, and holidays are this week).
Best,
Jay.
_____________________________
Jay R. Yablon
Email:

<h.poropudas@luukku.com> wrote in message
news:1132393888.643338.3210@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
h.poropudas@luukku.com wrote:

Jay R. Yablon wrote:

Hi Hannu, see inline:


I have understood that the total energy is ill defined concept in
General Relativity ?
How you have defined for example total gavitational energy in your
paper ?


Well, total energy is defined mathematically as an energy for which
T^uv_;u=0, and the zero must be ensured identically. That is, T^uv_;u
must
be set to a combination of fields which is identically equal to zero, in
all
situations, for Abelian and non-Abelian interactions alike.


Steve Carlip wrote "Gravitational Potential in GR" article, 23.02.1998
in sci.physics.relativty:

"The principle of equivalence implies that there can be no covariant
gravitational stress-energy tensor --- one can always choose
coordinates
in which the geodesics are arbitrarily close to straight lines in a
small region,
which implies that the gravitational energy in that region is
arbitrarily
close to zero; but a tensor that vanishes in any coordinate system
vanishes
in every coordinate system."

Is your energy tensor t^u _v of the gravitational field really
covariant
gravitational stress-energy tensor or what it is if not ?

I found one explanation about t^u_v in the book:
Tolman, R. C., 1962
Relativity Thermodynamics and Cosmology
Oxford at the Clarendon Press.
502 pages, pp 222-225 .
This is in the chapter:
"87. Re-expression of the equations of mechanics in the form
of an ordinary divergence"
t^u_v is defined in equation (87.12) and it is called the
PSEUDO-TENSOR density of gravitational energy and momentum.
t^a_b = (1/16Pi)[ -g^uv_b dL/dg^uv_a + g^a_b L + 2g^a_b A (-g)^(1/2)]
(87.12)
Pi = 3.14159..., A = cosmological constant, L Lagrangian function,
d is ordinary partial derivation symbol.
L=(-g)^(1/2) g^uv [ {ua,b} {vb,a} - {uv,a} {ab,b} ] (87.1)
{ ...} are Christoffel three-index symbols.
Listed equations in this chapter are numbered
from (87.1) to (87.16).
In the end of the chapter is mentioned that since t^v_u IS NOT TRUE
TENSOR DENSITY, however, we shall NOT HAVE THESE SIMPLE
RESULTS IN ALL COORDINATE SYSTEMS.


I found one nice explanation also about the problem:
Tom Roberts wrote "Re: Gravitational Potential Energy" article,
27.6.1998
in sci.physics.relativity:

"In GR, if one selects a gven "frame of reference" (in the usual SR
sense),
one can still change coordinates in arbitrary many ways, such that
the new coordinates are still "at rest" in that frame, but yet the
quantities
computed for potential energy and kinetic energy can have ANY possible
values.
In a given set of coordinates these quantities have definite values,
but as
there is no preferred coordinate system so is there no unique value for
PE
or KE. In other words, they are not well defned."

I put below one interesting comment about
"A PREFERRED COORDINATE SYSTEM"
(Form H-M's explanations I know this exists.
H-M explained many years ago that the
center of the space (M87) must be taken into
account in calculations).
This could be helpfull in order to define
the total energy concept beter in GR ???
There was a discussion in sci.physics in the year 1992
about the subject ´A "preferred reference frame" ´ where
Matt McIrvin(Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA)
wrote 15 Aug 92 17:49:08 GMT :
"hi...@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu (Jason W. Hinson) writes:

The following is a science fictional excursion discussing the possibility
of space-time having a preferred frame of reference without violating
relativity. My request is that someone tell me how we know that it cannot
be true.

Ädescription of a physics in which, to paraphrase a bit, instantaneous
communication ca occur, but only along a preferred set of spacelike
surfacesÅ
We do not know that ths cannot be true. Your statement that there would
be no problem with causality is correct, since spacelike communicaion
-->
causality violation depends on the ability to change the spacelike
surface ( or in SR, the inertial frame) in which the communication is
instantaneous, and this proposal exlicitly removes the possibility.
It does "violate relativity" in the sence that it denies one of the
basic postulates, namely that *all* the laws of physics are the same
in all inertial frames. It doesn' t completely tear it apart, though;
it just turns it into a theory of some special subset of physics,
including all physics currently known. It doesn' t violate causality.
Rather than just say that the "ether" has the property that c is the
same in all frames, I' d say that the "ether" is only an ether for
these extra, instantaneous interactions, nd has no relevance to
anything else.
This is, as others and I have pointed out before, a nice
self-consistent
way to put faster-than-light travel into science fiction. It isn't
at odds with any data and doesn't introduce the possibility of time
travel into the past. All one needs to assume is some nonlocal
phenomenon which disobeys relativity in this way.
The other side of the coin is that there is absolutely no evidence for
any such thing, and no need to introduce it other than that it might
be nice to have. Relativistic covariance has turned out to be an
extraordinary successful framework in which to construct a model
of physics, and to most of us, at least, there seems to be no reason
to abandon it. But nothing currently known from experiment rules out
extra physics of the sort you describe.
--
Matt McIrvn, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA"



I notice end of your paper the group of equations which sems to have
solution same as Resissner-Nordstrom solution as a line element
( metric of charged black hole), if I looked right ?

Serious Problems with this Reisnerr-Nordstrom solution are that with
time like geodesic it is possible to avoid hitting the singularity
and also that if black hole would have charge then the whole space
would be also charged too which is impossible ?


Well, Hannu, you are right to notice the similarities because I am using
the
Schwarzschild solution. But, this is not intended as a real-world
solution,


I notice that you mention the Kerr solution in your paper, but this
have
a problem too: H-M explained many years ago that if the black hole
in center of space would rotate then the planet which is center of
coordinative colour
electricity signals (planet orbits the great neutrino crystall
collection (big ball) in
center of the space) would be shifted into the other side of this big
ball. I understood
that this would block colour electricity signals (its mass would change
colour electricity
signals to black colour (= no colour electricity)). This is why at
least this
black hole is not possible to rotate. I assume that this is case for
all
black holes. In other words black holes are not possible to rotate ???


Of course the Schwarzschild solution is special case for both mentioned
black hole types.


but just as an example to give people a concrete idea of what I am
talking
about when I say that one can quantize gravity by feeding quantum
mechanical
wavefunctions for fields and currents directly into the Einstein
equations
at second and third differential order in the spacetime metric g_uv, and
then solving for G_uv to arrive at a metric wavefunction fully grounded
in
empirical knowledge from QED and QCD and QWeakD.

Jay.

.

User: "Autymn D. C."

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 19 Nov 2005 06:12:22 AM
sence -> sense
fotons at warp ten: http://www.npl.washington.edu/AV/altvw43.html
.






User: "Ken S. Tucker"

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 11 Nov 2005 03:18:54 AM
FrediFizzx wrote:

"Jay R. Yablon" <jyablon@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:eLScf.67167$Bv6.22934@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
| Hello to everyone:
|
| My newest paper, "General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and
the
| Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter," just
posted to
| ArXiV.
|
| The link is http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0511050.
|
| I would very much appreciate any comments and input you may have.

Hi Jay,

As I mentioned before; pretty fantastic! Do you think you could do a
summary of the postulates and a run down of the major features here?
FrediFizzx

Hi Fred and all...
let me try to explain that, because Jay's helped me understand the
paper,
so I'm a bit 2nd hand, and a bit off-the-cuff.
The paper is Maxwell's Equations (ME's) Super-charged.
Reviewing back to ME's and SR we note the relation of the
E and B fields in the the propagation of EMR is,
E x B => c , ( => indicates direction),
and "c" is the classical constant of the "velocity" of light in a
vacuum.
Consider E and B to be unit vectors then E x B = c = 1 in a vacuum,
and importantly E.B =0 , (scalar product).
When these equations for the propagation of light encounter a
gravitational field, a modification occurs, so that, c is not a
constant velocity. For example, the direction changes, (deflection)
the speed changes (Shapiro) and the frequency changes.
So we can re-write the transformed ME's in a g-field as
E' x B' = c' <>1 AND E'.B' <>0 ,
the later being crucial in the paper. That is entirely consistent
with taking an orthogonal ME relation E x B = c into a warped
spacetime, consistent with the g-field at the location of E' etc,
as a propagating EM-wave encounters a "nonorthogonal" field.
Underwriting physics is mathematics. What Jay did is to use
the "dual tensors" like
F_uv F*^uv == E.B == F_01 F*^01 = F_01 F_23
to form invariants that become E'.B' anywhere, but included a
coefficient normally marginalized in classical GR denoted,
|g_uv| = g.
such that F*^01 = F_23 / sqrt(-g), to decribe EM-fields.
The theory permits the inclusion of "magnetic monopoles"
and "negative matter", but exists fine even if those concepts
are negated.
Jay, around pg. 13, in the paper introduces what I call the
"Principle of Equilibrium", where matter reforms by the
action of potentials to tend to an entropy, by geodesics,
consistent with GR, so far as a continuum theory permits.
Recall
PRESSURE x VOLUME/ TEMPERATURE
is an invariant for an ideal gas, is firmly related to EM and
GR.
To establish an Equilibrium of the pressure, volume and
temperature when one of those are changed the paper
suggests a differential variation of the geodesics.
Tucker argues the "differential" is quantized, IOW's
the Equilibrium is obtained "inexactly".
But the paper, highlights in specific terms, how to argue
those points, and stands independant of the outcome
of those arguments.
Regards
Ken S. Tucker
.
User: "Jay R. Yablon"

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 11 Nov 2005 12:58:10 PM

Jay, around pg. 13, in the paper introduces what I call the
"Principle of Equilibrium", where matter reforms by the
action of potentials to tend to an entropy, by geodesics,
consistent with GR, so far as a continuum theory permits.

Recall

PRESSURE x VOLUME/ TEMPERATURE

is an invariant for an ideal gas, is firmly related to EM and
GR.

To establish an Equilibrium of the pressure, volume and
temperature when one of those are changed the paper
suggests a differential variation of the geodesics.
Tucker argues the "differential" is quantized, IOW's
the Equilibrium is obtained "inexactly".

Hi Ken:
Please explain as clearly as possible what you are seeing here. I would
agree that in principle, matter must exchange energy with the gravitational
field in discrete "packets" not continuously. Planck's delta E = n h-bar
frequency.
But, you seem to think that this quantization actually emerges out of the
"Principle of Equilibrium" and might be cranked out of the equations already
in the paper. How?
It would be fantastic if these results can self-quantize the energy
exchanges between matter and gravitational field.
Jay.
.
User: "Ken S. Tucker"

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 11 Nov 2005 05:43:42 PM
This reply is to Sue as well.
Jay R. Yablon wrote:

Jay, around pg. 13, in the paper introduces what I call the
"Principle of Equilibrium", where matter reforms by the
action of potentials to tend to an entropy, by geodesics,
consistent with GR, so far as a continuum theory permits.

Recall

PRESSURE x VOLUME/ TEMPERATURE

is an invariant for an ideal gas, is firmly related to EM and
GR.

To establish an Equilibrium of the pressure, volume and
temperature when one of those are changed the paper
suggests a differential variation of the geodesics.
Tucker argues the "differential" is quantized, IOW's
the Equilibrium is obtained "inexactly".


Hi Ken:

Please explain as clearly as possible what you are seeing here. I would
agree that in principle, matter must exchange energy with the gravitational
field in discrete "packets" not continuously. Planck's delta E = n h-bar
frequency.

But, you seem to think that this quantization actually emerges out of the
"Principle of Equilibrium" and might be cranked out of the equations already
in the paper. How?

Because I replied by email to Jay I'll post this for Sue and all.
Jay has these equations,
k_v = K,v = 0 (k=kappa).
K=sqrt(-g) E.B = scalar.
I think Jay and I agree to the above.
Here's what Tucker further argues,
Use "$" for an integral and get,
$ K,v dx^v = $ dK = K = $ k_v dx^v ,
proving the constant of integration of $ k_v dx^v = K.
Is that agreeable?
Ok then, let 2 distinct geodesics "A" and "B" exist,
k_v = k(A)_v - k(B)_v
A
$ k_v dx^v = K as a minimum
B
K appears as the quantized input (difference) to move from
one geodesic to another. For example going from geodesic
A=>B=>C needs 2K etc... nK, n = integer.

It would be fantastic if these results can self-quantize the energy
exchanges between matter and gravitational field.
Jay.

Well Tucker reads that in,
k_v = K,v = 0
as his interpretation. Physically a particle in freefall
moving along geodesic "A" according to k(A)_v =0
is struck by a photon that varies it's geodesic by a
quantized amount, (discontinuous quantity), I find to
be K, resulting in a new geodesic k(B)_v.
There is precedent. Planck's invariant constant "h" is
in relative units, (ergs x seconds).
So I suggest (conjecture) the constant
K=sqrt(-g) E.B
(is on a similiar footing as Planck's "h") , which I currently
interperate as an "invariant constant of energy density".
Regards
Ken S. Tucker
.
User: "Sue..."

Title: Re: New Paper: General Relativity, Maxwell's Electrodynamics, and the Foundations of the Quantum Theory of Gravitation and Matter (gr-qc/0511050) 12 Nov 2005 04:28:04 AM
Ken S. Tucker wrote:

This reply is to Sue as well.

Jay R. Yablon wrote:

Jay, around pg. 13, in the paper introduces what I call the
"Principle of Equilibrium", where matter reforms by the
action of potentials to tend to an entropy, by geodesics,
consistent with GR, so far as a continuum theory permits.

Recall

PRESSURE x VOLUME/ TEMPERATURE

is an invariant for an ideal gas, is firmly related to EM and
GR.

To establish an Equilibrium of the pressure, volume and
temperature when one of those are changed the paper
suggests a differential variation of the geodesics.
Tucker argues the "differential" is quantized, IOW's
the Equilibrium is obtained "inexactly".


Hi Ken:

Please explain as clearly as possible what you are seeing here. I would
agree that in principle, matter must exchange energy with the gravitational
field in discrete "packets" not continuously. Planck's delta E = n h-bar
frequency.

But, you seem to think that this quantization actually emerges out of the
"Principle of Equilibrium" and might be cranked out of the equations already
in the paper. How?


Because I replied by email to Jay I'll post this for Sue and all.

Jay has these equations,

k_v = K,v = 0 (k=kappa).

K=sqrt(-g) E.B = scalar.

I think Jay and I agree to the above.

Here's what Tucker further argues,

Use "$" for an integral and get,

$ K,v dx^v = $ dK = K = $ k_v dx^v ,

proving the constant of integration of $ k_v dx^v = K.

Is that agreeable?

Ok then, let 2 distinct geodesics "A" and "B" exist,

k_v = k(A)_v - k(B)_v

A
$ k_v dx^v = K as a minimum
B

K appears as the quantized input (difference) to move from
one geodesic to another. For example going from geodesic
A=>B=>C needs 2K etc... nK, n = integer.

It would be fantastic if these results can self-quantize the energy
exchanges between matter and gravitational field.
Jay.


Well Tucker reads that in,

k_v = K,v = 0

as his interpretation. Physically a particle in freefall
moving along geodesic "A" according to k(A)_v =0
is struck by a photon that varies it's geodesic by a
quantized amount, (discontinuous quantity), I find to
be K, resulting in a new geodesic k(B)_v.

There is precedent. Planck's invariant constant "h" is
in relative units, (ergs x seconds).

So I suggest (conjecture) the constant

K=sqrt(-g) E.B

(is on a similiar footing as Planck's "h") , which I currently
interperate as an "invariant constant of energy density".
Regards
Ken S. Tucker

OK. KenST. Your method seeks to produce standard atomic
quanta. I don't see the mechanism which I described as capable
of that. Your method may be useful where you are focused on
sub atomic structure but I will be watching with interest how
it deals with long-range electrically neutral forces.
Jay's strategy of wringing all you can out of empirical data might
dictate use of your method be limited to subatomic scales.
I haven't found any *convincing* work where forces resulting
from macro scale ensembles are well represented with standard
atomic quanta but I did find a few *unconvincing* attempts.
Where large ensembles are involved, some means of
'broadcasting' to all parts of the ensemble, how its energy
' differs from standard quanta'
seems necessary to the mechanism.
This is where I saw application for Jay's magnetic monopoles.
They, of course, are not real, but come into existence
to accomodate the size of the ensemble, as defined.
A macro ensemble is not going to seek a new equilibrium
point simply because we redefine its size so I have to
echo some puzzlement about this. Perhaps your work
is assuming a quantized 3d+1t space?
Regards,
Sue...
.