| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"wespe" |
| Date: |
07 May 2004 09:24:58 AM |
| Object: |
New theory for expanding Universe |
Hello, I'm a newbie (crackpot if you like) and I don't know if this
theory already exists.
Anyways, in short, I propose that:
The expansion of the universe, big bang and big crunch are natural
events, if we assume that universe is a four dimensinal thing which is
rotating around a fourth dimensional axis, time.
Explanation is:
Suppose, you have a segment of line sitting on the x-axis. If you
rotate it around the y-axis, you get a circle. If you move along the
y-axis and scan this circle, you see a shrinking/expanding line. Next,
if you rotate this circle around the z-axis, you get a sphere, and
likewise scan a shrinking/expanding circle. Therefore, if you rotate
this sphere around a fourth dimensional axis, you get something weird,
but scanning it should reveal a shrinking/expanding sphere. So, when
examined from 3 dimensions, 4 dimensional things should look like
shrinking/expanding things while we are moving along this 4th
dimension. If this fourth dimension is time, we observe a universe
that expands as time passes, and we know big bang occured in a past
time.
This theory also predicts that the big crunch will naturally occur in
the future. As far as I can tell, this has nothing to do with the
universe being closed/open.
Comments are welcome.
- wespe(anonymous)
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| User: "Jim Black" |
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| Title: Re: New theory for expanding Universe |
08 May 2004 05:47:06 PM |
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(wespe) wrote in message news:<7b9ba3f7.0405070624.4dbeab8d@posting.google.com>...
Hello, I'm a newbie (crackpot if you like) and I don't know if this
theory already exists.
Being a newbie, being ignorant, and being a crackpot are all very
different things. The people here who know something about physics
didn't learn it by hanging around this newsgroup; they actually picked
up some textbooks and studied. I encourage anyone interested in
physics to do the same.
Being ignorant of physics doesn't make a crackpot. Neither does a
crackpot have more creative ideas than anyone else. A crackpot just
doesn't check whether the predictions of his ideas conform to reality
before he announces them loudly to the world. The vast majority of
all really new, original ideas, no matter who thinks them up, are
wrong. A lot of people post here, and no one has the time to explain
why every crackpot theory doesn't work. Some people get the
inclination to try, and they waste a portion of their life, but don't
even make a dent in the problem. You see, no one likes to believe
they are wrong until they have discovered why they are wrong
themselves.
You can do better than this. Help make this newsgroup a little saner.
When you get an idea, don't immediately post it to Usenet. Instead,
study the relevant math and physics; learn what people already know.
Even if you find out that your idea can't possibly be right, you'll be
better from it. And it will help you come up with ideas that are more
likely to be fruitful ...
And if, while studying physics, you have any questions, feel free to
ask them. If people here know the answer, they will be more than
willing to help.
.
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| User: "wespe" |
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| Title: Re: New theory for expanding Universe |
08 May 2004 09:34:34 PM |
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(Jim Black) wrote in message news:<cb623e6.0405081447.67b2f9f2@posting.google.com>...
wespe@operamail.com (wespe) wrote in message news:<7b9ba3f7.0405070624.4dbeab8d@posting.google.com>...
Hello, I'm a newbie (crackpot if you like) and I don't know if this
theory already exists.
Being a newbie, being ignorant, and being a crackpot are all very
different things. The people here who know something about physics
didn't learn it by hanging around this newsgroup; they actually picked
up some textbooks and studied. I encourage anyone interested in
physics to do the same.
Being ignorant of physics doesn't make a crackpot. Neither does a
crackpot have more creative ideas than anyone else. A crackpot just
doesn't check whether the predictions of his ideas conform to reality
before he announces them loudly to the world. The vast majority of
all really new, original ideas, no matter who thinks them up, are
wrong. A lot of people post here, and no one has the time to explain
why every crackpot theory doesn't work. Some people get the
inclination to try, and they waste a portion of their life, but don't
even make a dent in the problem. You see, no one likes to believe
they are wrong until they have discovered why they are wrong
themselves.
You can do better than this. Help make this newsgroup a little saner.
When you get an idea, don't immediately post it to Usenet. Instead,
study the relevant math and physics; learn what people already know.
Even if you find out that your idea can't possibly be right, you'll be
better from it. And it will help you come up with ideas that are more
likely to be fruitful ...
And if, while studying physics, you have any questions, feel free to
ask them. If people here know the answer, they will be more than
willing to help.
Thanks for advice..
Really I was hoping that my idea might evolve into a theory with the
help of others here. I can't do any experiment or come up with any
math equations. But I did search with google. All I found was
"universe is not expanding into a higher dimension" (check the
suggested tutorial link above, faq page). I provided an elegant reason
why universe is expanding. Doesn't anyone wonder why this is
happening? I thought we could play with the idea. Maybe I shouldn't
have cross posted to sci.physics. Sorry about that.
.
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| User: "Jim Black" |
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| Title: Re: New theory for expanding Universe |
09 May 2004 03:45:57 AM |
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(wespe) wrote in message news:<7b9ba3f7.0405081834.f6e3657@posting.google.com>...
Thanks for advice..
Really I was hoping that my idea might evolve into a theory with the
help of others here.
That is a naive thing to hope for. If you expect anyone to pay
attention to an idea, you need to put enough work into it to convince
people that it is worth their time.
I can't do any experiment or come up with any
math equations. But I did search with google. All I found was
"universe is not expanding into a higher dimension" (check the
suggested tutorial link above, faq page). I provided an elegant reason
why universe is expanding. Doesn't anyone wonder why this is
happening?
Well, you should understand exactly what is meant when we say the
universe is expanding. Your model of the universe, unless I am
mistaken, has an edge. You should probably read the tutorial.
I thought we could play with the idea.
There's certainly nothing wrong with that. Playing with ideas, even
if they're bad ones, is very educational. I've just seen a lot of
people here who stick to the same bad idea for years.
By the way, do you see the quick and obvious way to circumvent the
problem I mentioned above? (Recommend reading the tutorial first.)
Then there's another problem; time is a fourth dimension of
space-time, but it isn't quite like the three spatial dimensions;
there's a small, but crucial difference. You can still make something
like a sphere, but it isn't what you might expect ...
This thread could get turned into a good discussion of special
relativity. What is your background in math like? What mathematical
tools can you handle (and understand)? What are your strong and weak
points?
Maybe I shouldn't
have cross posted to sci.physics. Sorry about that.
The people we want to divert away from sci.physics are those who post
the same bad idea over and over again, and never do their homework to
see why it is a bad idea. They are effectively spamming the
newsgroup. Donald Shead's idea that scientists should go back to
English units. S. Enterprize's "Smart Model." GRAVITYMECHANIC2's
"PLANETS ORBIT THE SUN TO CONSERVE TOTAL ENERGY." Richard's idea that
charge is dependent on reference frame. This is not something you
want to do on any newsgroup. It is just something you don't want to
do.
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| User: "AaronB" |
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| Title: Re: New theory for expanding Universe |
09 May 2004 12:37:02 AM |
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(wespe) wrote in message news:<7b9ba3f7.0405081834.f6e3657@posting.google.com>...
ghytrfvbnmju7654@mail.com (Jim Black) wrote in message news:<cb623e6.0405081447.67b2f9f2@posting.google.com>...
(wespe) wrote in message news:<7b9ba3f7.0405070624.4dbeab8d@posting.google.com>...
Hello, I'm a newbie (crackpot if you like) and I don't know if this
theory already exists.
Being a newbie, being ignorant, and being a crackpot are all very
different things. The people here who know something about physics
didn't learn it by hanging around this newsgroup; they actually picked
up some textbooks and studied. I encourage anyone interested in
physics to do the same.
Being ignorant of physics doesn't make a crackpot. Neither does a
crackpot have more creative ideas than anyone else. A crackpot just
doesn't check whether the predictions of his ideas conform to reality
before he announces them loudly to the world. The vast majority of
all really new, original ideas, no matter who thinks them up, are
wrong. A lot of people post here, and no one has the time to explain
why every crackpot theory doesn't work. Some people get the
inclination to try, and they waste a portion of their life, but don't
even make a dent in the problem. You see, no one likes to believe
they are wrong until they have discovered why they are wrong
themselves.
You can do better than this. Help make this newsgroup a little saner.
When you get an idea, don't immediately post it to Usenet. Instead,
study the relevant math and physics; learn what people already know.
Even if you find out that your idea can't possibly be right, you'll be
better from it. And it will help you come up with ideas that are more
likely to be fruitful ...
And if, while studying physics, you have any questions, feel free to
ask them. If people here know the answer, they will be more than
willing to help.
Thanks for advice..
Really I was hoping that my idea might evolve into a theory with the
help of others here. I can't do any experiment or come up with any
math equations. But I did search with google. All I found was
"universe is not expanding into a higher dimension" (check the
suggested tutorial link above, faq page). I provided an elegant reason
why universe is expanding. Doesn't anyone wonder why this is
happening? I thought we could play with the idea. Maybe I shouldn't
have cross posted to sci.physics. Sorry about that.
I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with your idea, nor
is there anything wrong with cross-posting it to sci.physics. I will
give you, it does have a certain elegant simplicity that is very
refreshing. Most of the "crackpot" ideas that come from around here
have dozens, if not hundreds of little side-premises that they to
explain every possible phenomena, in, really, the hopes that
intelligent people will not have the time to pick away at every single
little thing.
For some actual comments on your ideas, here's some thoughts.
1) Wouldn't moving along the the axis of interest actually be in time?
If so, then you wouldn't actually need a 4 dimensional sphere, since
the expansion/contraction of the sphere is taking place in time.
2) How could you use this model to explain the fact that the universe
is expanding at an accelerated rate?
A.
.
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| User: "Tobias Skytte" |
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| Title: Re: New theory for expanding Universe |
16 May 2004 08:40:23 AM |
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(AaronB) wrote in message news:<9f8a9f42.0405082137.35128a06@posting.google.com>...
2) How could you use this model to explain the fact that the universe
is expanding at an accelerated rate?
A.
The movement along the x-axis, if projected onto the y-axis circle,
would describe a sine-wave. If we are currently going 'up' the wave
then that would account for the acceleration. When at the top of the
wave, the acceleration would change to a decelleration and when going
down the wave it would again change to an acceleration (but now an
accelerated contraction of the universe).
The question is then, if the acceleration we are seeing currently is
in accordance with the acceleration on a sine-wave? or is the
acceleration accellerating (i.e exponential) or otherwise different?
Tobias Skytte
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| User: "Marcus Wellpoth" |
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| Title: Re: New theory for expanding Universe |
16 May 2004 10:07:33 AM |
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Tobias Skytte wrote:
aaronb@uvic.ca (AaronB) wrote in message news:<9f8a9f42.0405082137.35128a06@posting.google.com>...
The question is then, if the acceleration we are seeing currently is
in accordance with the acceleration on a sine-wave? or is the
acceleration accellerating (i.e exponential) or otherwise different?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is there something that uses the fourth derivative in physics?
mw
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| User: "wespe" |
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| Title: Re: New theory for expanding Universe |
09 May 2004 05:44:31 AM |
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(AaronB) wrote in message news:<9f8a9f42.0405082137.35128a06@posting.google.com>...
wespe@operamail.com (wespe) wrote in message news:<7b9ba3f7.0405081834.f6e3657@posting.google.com>...
ghytrfvbnmju7654@mail.com (Jim Black) wrote in message news:<cb623e6.0405081447.67b2f9f2@posting.google.com>...
wespe@operamail.com (wespe) wrote in message news:<7b9ba3f7.0405070624.4dbeab8d@posting.google.com>...
[....................]
For some actual comments on your ideas, here's some thoughts.
1) Wouldn't moving along the the axis of interest actually be in time?
If so, then you wouldn't actually need a 4 dimensional sphere, since
the expansion/contraction of the sphere is taking place in time.
2) How could you use this model to explain the fact that the universe
is expanding at an accelerated rate?
A.
Thanks for your comments.
1) I had labeled the fourth dimension as time, but it could as well be
just a higher dimension separate from time. Difference is, the former
choice imposes predetermined events in time. With the latter, anything
can happen, but the dimension count we need increases by one.
2) To explain acceleration, I tried to change the sphere to
egg-shaped. But then we could give it any shape and no prediction
would be possible. I realized I had made some errors..
The rotation part was just to help construct a 4D sphere.. It really
boils down to this: intersection of a 3D sphere passing through a 2D
plane forms an expanding/contracting 2D circle. Add one extra
dimension to all, and voila! But this idea has already been explored
in the book "Flatland"..
Another problem: subract one dimension from the scenario above, and
you have a 1D line and 2D circle passing over it. The intersection
line would expand/contract, but it would have boundaries, unlike our
space.. To remove the boundaries, we can fold the line into a circle
(it would still be 1 dimensional), and likewise fold the 2D circle
into a hollow spere (still 2D). But the intersection of these does not
work as expected.. We have to make the 2D sphere filled, a 3D sphere,
and it must bigger than the 2D circle. So the intersection of these,
is finally a 2D circle, which is finite without boundaries, however
not expanding/contracting, the density of sphere at the intersection
is changing, possibly increasing/decreasing. Then, to project this
into 3D space, we have to add 2 more dimensions. That totals to 5
dimensions including the one we used for folding and/or filling, and
not counting a separate time dimension if we choose to have it.
These are my thoughts I wanted to share.
.
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| User: "gyirma" |
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| Title: Re: New theory for expanding Universe |
09 May 2004 01:19:23 AM |
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wespe wrote:
Hello, I'm a newbie (crackpot if you like) and I don't know if this
theory already exists.
Anyways, in short, I propose that:
The expansion of the universe, big bang and big crunch are natural
events, if we assume that universe is a four dimensinal thing which is
rotating around a fourth dimensional axis, time.
Explanation is:
Suppose, you have a segment of line sitting on the x-axis. If you
rotate it around the y-axis, you get a circle. If you move along the
y-axis and scan this circle, you see a shrinking/expanding line. Next,
if you rotate this circle around the z-axis, you get a sphere, and
likewise scan a shrinking/expanding circle. Therefore, if you rotate
this sphere around a fourth dimensional axis, you get something weird,
but scanning it should reveal a shrinking/expanding sphere. So, when
examined from 3 dimensions, 4 dimensional things should look like
shrinking/expanding things while we are moving along this 4th
dimension. If this fourth dimension is time, we observe a universe
that expands as time passes, and we know big bang occured in a past
time.
This theory also predicts that the big crunch will naturally occur in
the future. As far as I can tell, this has nothing to do with the
universe being closed/open.
Comments are welcome.
- wespe(anonymous)
Actually this is not my theory, a physicist told it to me once, but
thought of sharing (maybe it has something in common with your theory):
The Universe has a magnet of sorts in its center, something we cannot
see. This magnet has North and South poles. All matter in the Universe
passes through this magnetic "tunnel", and when it exits it gets spit
out at one of the poles - lets say at the South pole - then all matter
(galaxies) split in their heading into two directions (imagine the letter
w here), and move up toward the North and reenters the magnet at its North
pole (all motion looks kind of like the letter 8 sideways). So based on
this theory we got spit out in the South pole (we percieve this big "spit"
:-) as the big bang), and as a result all galaxies appear to be accelerating
away from each other. Once moving closer toward the North pole, all space
between matter would begin closing in again.
George
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: New theory for expanding Universe |
07 May 2004 09:34:36 AM |
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wespe wrote:
Hello, I'm a newbie (crackpot if you like) and I don't know if this
theory already exists.
Anyways, in short, I propose that:
The expansion of the universe, big bang and big crunch are natural
events, if we assume that universe is a four dimensinal thing which is
rotating around a fourth dimensional axis, time.
Explanation is:
Suppose, you have a segment of line sitting on the x-axis. If you
rotate it around the y-axis, you get a circle. If you move along the
y-axis and scan this circle, you see a shrinking/expanding line. Next,
if you rotate this circle around the z-axis, you get a sphere, and
likewise scan a shrinking/expanding circle. Therefore, if you rotate
this sphere around a fourth dimensional axis, you get something weird,
but scanning it should reveal a shrinking/expanding sphere. So, when
examined from 3 dimensions, 4 dimensional things should look like
shrinking/expanding things while we are moving along this 4th
dimension. If this fourth dimension is time, we observe a universe
that expands as time passes, and we know big bang occured in a past
time.
This theory also predicts that the big crunch will naturally occur in
the future. As far as I can tell, this has nothing to do with the
universe being closed/open.
Comments are welcome.
- wespe(anonymous)
Look at these:
And Ned Wright's Cosmology Tutorial
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm
Cosmology FAQs
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmology_faq.html
Circle
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Circle.html
.
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