| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Jimmer" |
| Date: |
23 May 2007 08:00:09 PM |
| Object: |
Non-Local Hidden Variables, why not? |
Local Hidden Variables is proven to be no-no in physics as a
result of violation of Bell's Inequities. However, Non-Local Hidden
Variables
obeying the laws of randomness is still possible. This means quantum
things may have properties before measurement and they are connected
by superluminal signal and all obeying the law of randomness hence no
information can be sent by humans. Non-locality and superluminal may
then be only private lines used by nature. However if you can hack
nature somehow, one may be able to send superluminal signal with
information. If this happens. How were one able to test the
consequence
that the past can be altered. Are their simple experiments where you
can see the effects of past being changed right before your eyes?
Supposed, for example. The genius Greysky (or others) were able to
hack into nature and build the first FTL radio. How can one test the
fact
that it should alter the past. This still escape me.
J
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| User: "Phineas T Puddleduck" |
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| Title: Re: Non-Local Hidden Variables, why not? |
23 May 2007 08:05:44 PM |
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In article <1179963495.993894.254530@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
Jimmer <jimmerlight@yahoo.com> wrote:
The genius Greysky (or others) were able to
hack into nature and build the first FTL radio. How can one test the
fact
that it should alter the past. This still escape me.
Greysky? Genius?
I am now a firm believer in the MWI as I think you posted this from
bizarro-world.
--
COOSN-174-07-82116: Official Science Team mascot and alt.astronomy's favourite
poster (from a survey taken of the saucerhead high command).
Sacred keeper of the Hollow Sphere, and the space within the Coffee Boy
singularity.
.
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| User: "John \C" |
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| Title: "Coward The Duck" Kwacked with a lisp #19 |
23 May 2007 08:34:57 PM |
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"Phineas T Puddleduck" <phineaspuddleduck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:phineaspuddleduck-1C906C.02054424052007@news.octanews.com...
In article <1179963495.993894.254530@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
Jimmer <jimmerlight@yahoo.com> wrote:
The genius Greysky (or others) were able to
hack into nature and build the first FTL radio. How can one test the
fact
that it should alter the past. This still escape me.
I am Gay.
Yes we know!
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| User: "Jim Black" |
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| Title: Re: Non-Local Hidden Variables, why not? |
24 May 2007 03:50:26 PM |
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On May 23, 9:05 pm, Phineas T Puddleduck <phineaspuddled...@gmail.com>
wrote:
In article <1179963495.993894.254...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
Jimmer <jimmerli...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The genius Greysky (or others) were able to
hack into nature and build the first FTL radio. How can one test the
fact
that it should alter the past. This still escape me.
Greysky? Genius?
Of course he is. You see, although Greysky realized that special
relativity implies that one can turn FTL radios into paradox-creating
backwards-in-time radios, he recognized that every such paradox
depended on there being at least two FTL receivers. Only by keeping
the plans to the receiver secret, ensuring that his receiver was the
only FTL receiver in the entire universe, was he able to make the
receiver actually work.
But feel free to build your own FTL transmitter. I bet you could even
send him message through the thing, call Greysky up, and have him
inform you that your transmitter was not working, and describe what
you might have done wrong when you built the thing. :)
--
Jim E. Black
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Non-Local Hidden Variables, why not? |
23 May 2007 10:45:31 PM |
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Jimmer wrote:
Local Hidden Variables is proven to be no-no in physics as a
result of violation of Bell's Inequities. However, Non-Local Hidden
Variables obeying the laws of randomness is still possible. This means quantum
things may have properties before measurement and they are connected
by superluminal signal and all obeying the law of randomness hence no
information can be sent by humans. Non-locality and superluminal may
then be only private lines used by nature. However if you can hack
nature somehow, one may be able to send superluminal signal with
information. If this happens. How were one able to test the consequence
that the past can be altered. Are their simple experiments where you
can see the effects of past being changed right before your eyes?
The genius Greysky (or others) were able to hack into nature and build
the first FTL radio.
There is no such thing as FTL arbitrary "signals".
Quantum entanglement cannot be used for *arbitrary communications*
over arbitrary distances which remains constrained by the speed
of light.
Neither phase velocity nor group velocity can be used for *arbitrary
communications* over arbitrary distances which remains constrained by
the speed of light.
A Mathematical Theory of Communication by Claude E. Shannon
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/ms/what/shannonday/paper.html
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/ms/what/shannonday/shannon1948.pdf
Claude E. Shannon
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/biography/Shannon.html
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| User: "galathaea" |
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| Title: Re: Non-Local Hidden Variables, why not? |
24 May 2007 01:43:26 AM |
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On May 23, 6:00 pm, Jimmer <jimmerli...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Local Hidden Variables is proven to be no-no in physics as a
result of violation of Bell's Inequities. However, Non-Local Hidden
Variables
obeying the laws of randomness is still possible. This means quantum
things may have properties before measurement and they are connected
by superluminal signal and all obeying the law of randomness hence no
information can be sent by humans. Non-locality and superluminal may
then be only private lines used by nature. However if you can hack
nature somehow, one may be able to send superluminal signal with
information. If this happens. How were one able to test the
consequence
that the past can be altered. Are their simple experiments where you
can see the effects of past being changed right before your eyes?
Supposed, for example. The genius Greysky (or others) were able to
hack into nature and build the first FTL radio. How can one test the
fact
that it should alter the past. This still escape me.
nonlocality and superluminality
are only linked in certain generalisations
of lorentzian spacetimes
but there are many possible ontologies of space
that we can model our world with
euclidean manifolds
for instance
where superluminality still has a locality property
ie. that there is a local dynamic for determining trajectory
with finite velocities
a local causality
eberhard has shown how to have a relativistic quantum theory
based on a realist hidden variable ontology
with this locality property
but they are only approximations
with a tunable parameter to approximate as closely as desired
the full nonlocal theory needed
in lorentzian ontologies this also violates causality
and trajectories cannot proceed through the light cone locally
but eberhard uses euclidean manifolds like bohmian theories
so you could beat any experiment by
tuning the variable beyond detection
but if you wanted exact fit to qft
you would have infinite velocities
these infinite velocities allow
separated regions of the spacetime to interact
and are always nonlocal
bohmian mechanics has always had such infinities
but even if the ontology is euclidean
the operational dynamics that best characterises experience
is lorentzian to the best of our knowledge
and it is the operational dynamics that we need examine
when trying to engineer superluminal information
because information theory is operationalism
so you have to look for other ways to work in the framework
if your only desire is to communicate
between any two points
with arbitrarily small response intervals
then superluminality is not necessary
if the speed of light is altered
there are already many proposed methods
casimir channels and the scarnhorst effect
which could affect any distance
lorentz violation through spontaneous symmetry breaking
which would likely be a short range effect
noncommutative space ontologies
which can couple photon propagation to magnetic fields
metric engineering through control of stressenergy
but for any of these to become technology
they must become detectable
the casimir effect has been observed many times
but the scales have not been sufficient
to observe the predicted velocity boost
even though the observed lowering of permitivity
does give indication
this has been intimately tied to the weak energy condition
which casimir violates
http://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0204038
the weak energy condition
appears also violated in lorentz breaking
http://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-th/0012143
###########..############
interestingly
there do seem to be some new mathematical structures
connecting nonlinear quantum mechanical theories
particularly doebner-goldin
and noncommutative geometries
and nonlinearisations of bohmian mechanics
are frequently explored
and have led back to doebner-goldin
http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/9710010
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar
.
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| User: "Jimmer" |
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| Title: Re: Non-Local Hidden Variables, why not? |
24 May 2007 10:04:57 AM |
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galathaea wrote:
On May 23, 6:00 pm, Jimmer <jimmerli...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Local Hidden Variables is proven to be no-no in physics as a
result of violation of Bell's Inequities. However, Non-Local Hidden
Variables
obeying the laws of randomness is still possible. This means quantum
things may have properties before measurement and they are connected
by superluminal signal and all obeying the law of randomness hence no
information can be sent by humans. Non-locality and superluminal may
then be only private lines used by nature. However if you can hack
nature somehow, one may be able to send superluminal signal with
information. If this happens. How were one able to test the
consequence
that the past can be altered. Are their simple experiments where you
can see the effects of past being changed right before your eyes?
Supposed, for example. The genius Greysky (or others) were able to
hack into nature and build the first FTL radio. How can one test the
fact
that it should alter the past. This still escape me.
nonlocality and superluminality
are only linked in certain generalisations
of lorentzian spacetimes
but there are many possible ontologies of space
that we can model our world with
euclidean manifolds
for instance
where superluminality still has a locality property
ie. that there is a local dynamic for determining trajectory
with finite velocities
a local causality
If you have more references pls. share the sources. I'm just
fascinated by
the correlations in entanglement. Nature can choose to be simple by
making quantum theory operational within the light cone only. But
somehow
entangled pairs can seemingly be correlated equivalent to millions
times
the speed of light. If Non-local Hidden Variable is true. And
superluminal
signals indeed exist. How can one engineer or arrange an experimental
setup to show that the past can be altered courtesy of Special
Relativity.
If superluminal signal exist but the past can't be altered then there
must be
an Anti-Time Alteration protocol installed in nature to present time
paradox.
Or maybe Special Relativity has boundaries or extra rules in its frame
of reference and spacetime interval handling.
J
eberhard has shown how to have a relativistic quantum theory
based on a realist hidden variable ontology
with this locality property
but they are only approximations
with a tunable parameter to approximate as closely as desired
the full nonlocal theory needed
in lorentzian ontologies this also violates causality
and trajectories cannot proceed through the light cone locally
but eberhard uses euclidean manifolds like bohmian theories
so you could beat any experiment by
tuning the variable beyond detection
but if you wanted exact fit to qft
you would have infinite velocities
these infinite velocities allow
separated regions of the spacetime to interact
and are always nonlocal
bohmian mechanics has always had such infinities
but even if the ontology is euclidean
the operational dynamics that best characterises experience
is lorentzian to the best of our knowledge
and it is the operational dynamics that we need examine
when trying to engineer superluminal information
because information theory is operationalism
so you have to look for other ways to work in the framework
if your only desire is to communicate
between any two points
with arbitrarily small response intervals
then superluminality is not necessary
if the speed of light is altered
there are already many proposed methods
casimir channels and the scarnhorst effect
which could affect any distance
lorentz violation through spontaneous symmetry breaking
which would likely be a short range effect
noncommutative space ontologies
which can couple photon propagation to magnetic fields
metric engineering through control of stressenergy
but for any of these to become technology
they must become detectable
the casimir effect has been observed many times
but the scales have not been sufficient
to observe the predicted velocity boost
even though the observed lowering of permitivity
does give indication
this has been intimately tied to the weak energy condition
which casimir violates
http://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0204038
the weak energy condition
appears also violated in lorentz breaking
http://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-th/0012143
###########..############
interestingly
there do seem to be some new mathematical structures
connecting nonlinear quantum mechanical theories
particularly doebner-goldin
and noncommutative geometries
and nonlinearisations of bohmian mechanics
are frequently explored
and have led back to doebner-goldin
http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/9710010
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar
.
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