| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Sam Wormley" |
| Date: |
04 Jan 2004 08:36:50 PM |
| Object: |
Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
Dear Everybody--Nova (PBS) normally airs on Tuesday evenings
and will do so again, Tuesday, January 6th. It will be the
same excellent program that aired tonight (Sunday) but promises
to include in its last five minutes the latest images (in color)
from Gusev Crater (what is believed to have once been a terminal
lake basin) on Mars.
These rovers are like remote geologists on wheels... It's the best
we can do right now as they extend some of our senses down to the
planet's surface!
Excellent Resources
http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/mer2003/topsites/final/
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html
For those with high speed Internet
http://www.nasa.gov/ram/35037main_portal.ram
The second Mars Explorer Rovers - Opportunity Lands:
January 25, 2004
about 4:05 pm UTC
http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/mer2003/topsites/final/
Cassini arrives at Saturn this Summer!
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/cassini/
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/index.cfm
"Seeing In The Dark" by Timothy Ferris
Pages 286-287
Perhaps the key to dying well--or living well--is to have laid in a
stock of worthy memories. To that end, when darkness is falling for
good, it is well to have in mind, in addition to memories of human love
and loss and of the natural splendors of this world--of birdsong at
dawn, the roaring spray of the surf, the sweet smell of the air in the
eye of a hurricane, the workings of bees in the throats of
wildflowers--a few memories of the other worlds as well. If you have
seen plasma arches rising off the edge of the Sun, yellow dust storms
raging on Mars, angry red Io emerging from the shadow of Jupiter, the
golden rings of Saturn, the green dot of Uranus, and the blue dot of
Neptune, the glittering star fields of Sagittarius and the delicate
tendrils connecting interacting galaxies, have watched auroras and
meteors writing silent signatures in the sky--if, in short, you have
seen not only this world but something of the other worlds, too--well,
you have lived.
So, while life is in us, and we are in it, let's keep our eyes open.
.
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| User: "G=EMC^2 Glazier" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 01:10:27 PM |
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Hi Sam Since there is no way Mars can have running water on its
surface. Than why not have it under ground rivers? All of Florida's
drinking water come from under ground. Mars surface can be permafrost.
The reason Mars can't have water is its very low atmospheric pressure
would boil it off. Bert
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 02:14:54 PM |
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G=EMC^2 Glazier wrote:
Hi Sam Since there is no way Mars can have running water on its
surface. Than why not have it under ground rivers? All of Florida's
drinking water come from under ground. Mars surface can be permafrost.
The reason Mars can't have water is its very low atmospheric pressure
would boil it off. Bert
What is the subsurface temperature on Mars, Herb?
.
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| User: "Vincent van der Laan" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 08:59:39 AM |
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On 05-01-2004 03:36, in article 3FF8CDC0.6B51B374@mchsi.com, "Sam Wormley"
<swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote:
Dear Everybody--Nova (PBS) normally airs on Tuesday evenings
and will do so again, Tuesday, January 6th. It will be the
same excellent program that aired tonight (Sunday) but promises
to include in its last five minutes the latest images (in color)
from Gusev Crater (what is believed to have once been a terminal
lake basin) on Mars.
These rovers are like remote geologists on wheels... It's the best
we can do right now as they extend some of our senses down to the
planet's surface!
Excellent Resources
http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/mer2003/topsites/final/
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html
For those with high speed Internet
http://www.nasa.gov/ram/35037main_portal.ram
The second Mars Explorer Rovers - Opportunity Lands:
January 25, 2004
about 4:05 pm UTC
http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/mer2003/topsites/final/
Cassini arrives at Saturn this Summer!
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/cassini/
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/index.cfm
"Seeing In The Dark" by Timothy Ferris
Pages 286-287
Perhaps the key to dying well--or living well--is to have laid in a
stock of worthy memories. To that end, when darkness is falling for
good, it is well to have in mind, in addition to memories of human love
and loss and of the natural splendors of this world--of birdsong at
dawn, the roaring spray of the surf, the sweet smell of the air in the
eye of a hurricane, the workings of bees in the throats of
wildflowers--a few memories of the other worlds as well. If you have
seen plasma arches rising off the edge of the Sun, yellow dust storms
raging on Mars, angry red Io emerging from the shadow of Jupiter, the
golden rings of Saturn, the green dot of Uranus, and the blue dot of
Neptune, the glittering star fields of Sagittarius and the delicate
tendrils connecting interacting galaxies, have watched auroras and
meteors writing silent signatures in the sky--if, in short, you have
seen not only this world but something of the other worlds, too--well,
you have lived.
So, while life is in us, and we are in it, let's keep our eyes open.
Sam,
I'm afraid that crossposting to sci.physics (a wellknown cesspool of trolls
and flamewars) has brought one of their trolls into our community!
A quick search shows he never made a valid contribution to our NG.
So there we go:
Robert J. Kolker: *PLONK*
Vincent
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| User: "Jan Owen" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 02:16:48 PM |
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Probably be a good idea not to crosspost the next one where a bunch of
idiots can get hold of it, huh, Sam???
--
To reply, remove the "z" if one appears in my address
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:3FF8CDC0.6B51B374@mchsi.com...
Dear Everybody--Nova (PBS) normally airs on Tuesday evenings
and will do so again, Tuesday, January 6th. It will be the
same excellent program that aired tonight (Sunday) but promises
to include in its last five minutes the latest images (in color)
from Gusev Crater (what is believed to have once been a terminal
lake basin) on Mars.
These rovers are like remote geologists on wheels... It's the best
we can do right now as they extend some of our senses down to the
planet's surface!
Excellent Resources
http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/mer2003/topsites/final/
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html
For those with high speed Internet
http://www.nasa.gov/ram/35037main_portal.ram
The second Mars Explorer Rovers - Opportunity Lands:
January 25, 2004
about 4:05 pm UTC
http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/mer2003/topsites/final/
Cassini arrives at Saturn this Summer!
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/cassini/
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/index.cfm
"Seeing In The Dark" by Timothy Ferris
Pages 286-287
Perhaps the key to dying well--or living well--is to have laid in a
stock of worthy memories. To that end, when darkness is falling for
good, it is well to have in mind, in addition to memories of human
love
and loss and of the natural splendors of this world--of birdsong at
dawn, the roaring spray of the surf, the sweet smell of the air in
the
eye of a hurricane, the workings of bees in the throats of
wildflowers--a few memories of the other worlds as well. If you have
seen plasma arches rising off the edge of the Sun, yellow dust storms
raging on Mars, angry red Io emerging from the shadow of Jupiter, the
golden rings of Saturn, the green dot of Uranus, and the blue dot of
Neptune, the glittering star fields of Sagittarius and the delicate
tendrils connecting interacting galaxies, have watched auroras and
meteors writing silent signatures in the sky--if, in short, you have
seen not only this world but something of the other worlds,
too--well,
you have lived.
So, while life is in us, and we are in it, let's keep our eyes open.
.
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 10:55:06 AM |
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Sam Wormley wrote:
Dear Everybody--Nova (PBS) normally airs on Tuesday evenings
and will do so again, Tuesday, January 6th. It will be the
same excellent program that aired tonight (Sunday) but promises
to include in its last five minutes the latest images (in color)
from Gusev Crater (what is believed to have once been a terminal
lake basin) on Mars.
These rovers are like remote geologists on wheels... It's the best
we can do right now as they extend some of our senses down to the
planet's surface!
Excellent Resources
http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/mer2003/topsites/final/
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html
For those with high speed Internet
http://www.nasa.gov/ram/35037main_portal.ram
The second Mars Explorer Rovers - Opportunity Lands:
January 25, 2004
about 4:05 pm UTC
http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/mer2003/topsites/final/
Cassini arrives at Saturn this Summer!
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/cassini/
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/index.cfm
[snip]
The most interesting aspect of the program was the astounding
advertised inablity of NASA to get anything done. They debated
running a pissy survivability test that they were going to run anyway
because the thing had to survive it anyway in the real world. The
parachute was especially diagnostic and damning. The top hole was too
big? Didn't anybody measure the thing before deployment testing? A
circuit board crapped out? How often does Dell, Gateway, IBM, HP...
recall boxes because of crappy boards? Critical missions should be
off-the-shelf. Continuous improvement works.
The hugely expensive wind tunnel was "cheaper and faster" than the
helicopter drop? Parachutes may be an arcane enginering task, but we
drop multi-tonne pallets and tanks and such from C-40s roaring along -
as well as the very heavy daisy cutter bomb - with no reliability
problems. Get a surplus military parachute. Make the rancid thing
out of Spectra and be done with it. Learn how to compactly fold a
chute.
Then there were the pyros. The only way to unmount them is to fire
them? In a project wherein every additional gram is a huge liability,
they're mounting 40 lumps of steel? The acres of gold plating were
precious, literally. How many automobiles are assembled in a clean
room, then to operate in the dirty real world? One suspects that the
high technology of radio controlled cars could be directly adapted
after suitable low-temp lubricants were installed. It's not like the
thing has to work for ten years.
Invent a battery that survives deep freezing.
Uncle Al really got jizzed when he saw a king's ransom of Kapton jury
rigged as a lens cover. One can only hope that they used special
$500/roll NASA adhesive tape instead of some brutally hate criminal
Scotch tape (and the niggardly cheapness that implies). Oh yeah...
don't forget the $50,000 computer-interfaced voice-actuated tape
dispensor specially designed and built for the project with
micromachined carbide jaws, real-time telemetry readouts being
recorded, and OSHA-approved multiply-redundant safety failsafes.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!
.
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| User: "Paul R. Mays" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 11:33:56 AM |
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"Uncle Al" <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
news:3FF996EA.63D1044A@hate.spam.net...
Sam Wormley wrote:
Dear Everybody--Nova (PBS) normally airs on Tuesday evenings
and will do so again, Tuesday, January 6th. It will be the
same excellent program that aired tonight (Sunday) but promises
to include in its last five minutes the latest images (in color)
from Gusev Crater (what is believed to have once been a terminal
lake basin) on Mars.
These rovers are like remote geologists on wheels... It's the best
we can do right now as they extend some of our senses down to the
planet's surface!
Excellent Resources
http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/mer2003/topsites/final/
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html
For those with high speed Internet
http://www.nasa.gov/ram/35037main_portal.ram
The second Mars Explorer Rovers - Opportunity Lands:
January 25, 2004
about 4:05 pm UTC
http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/mer2003/topsites/final/
Cassini arrives at Saturn this Summer!
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/cassini/
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/index.cfm
[snip]
The most interesting aspect of the program was the astounding
advertised inablity of NASA to get anything done. They debated
running a pissy survivability test that they were going to run anyway
because the thing had to survive it anyway in the real world. The
parachute was especially diagnostic and damning. The top hole was too
big? Didn't anybody measure the thing before deployment testing? A
circuit board crapped out? How often does Dell, Gateway, IBM, HP...
recall boxes because of crappy boards? Critical missions should be
off-the-shelf. Continuous improvement works.
The hugely expensive wind tunnel was "cheaper and faster" than the
helicopter drop? Parachutes may be an arcane enginering task, but we
drop multi-tonne pallets and tanks and such from C-40s roaring along -
as well as the very heavy daisy cutter bomb - with no reliability
problems. Get a surplus military parachute. Make the rancid thing
out of Spectra and be done with it. Learn how to compactly fold a
chute.
Then there were the pyros. The only way to unmount them is to fire
them? In a project wherein every additional gram is a huge liability,
they're mounting 40 lumps of steel? The acres of gold plating were
precious, literally. How many automobiles are assembled in a clean
room, then to operate in the dirty real world? One suspects that the
high technology of radio controlled cars could be directly adapted
after suitable low-temp lubricants were installed. It's not like the
thing has to work for ten years.
Invent a battery that survives deep freezing.
Uncle Al really got jizzed when he saw a king's ransom of Kapton jury
rigged as a lens cover. One can only hope that they used special
$500/roll NASA adhesive tape instead of some brutally hate criminal
Scotch tape (and the niggardly cheapness that implies). Oh yeah...
don't forget the $50,000 computer-interfaced voice-actuated tape
dispensor specially designed and built for the project with
micromachined carbide jaws, real-time telemetry readouts being
recorded, and OSHA-approved multiply-redundant safety failsafes.
The last idiot in charge of NASA tryed it your way Al...
It don't work... cheaper and faster automatically means
its doomed to fail most the time....
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!
.
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 01:32:22 PM |
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"Paul R. Mays" wrote:
"Uncle Al" <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
news:3FF996EA.63D1044A@hate.spam.net...
Sam Wormley wrote:
Dear Everybody--Nova (PBS) normally airs on Tuesday evenings
and will do so again, Tuesday, January 6th. It will be the
same excellent program that aired tonight (Sunday) but promises
to include in its last five minutes the latest images (in color)
from Gusev Crater (what is believed to have once been a terminal
lake basin) on Mars.
These rovers are like remote geologists on wheels... It's the best
we can do right now as they extend some of our senses down to the
planet's surface!
Excellent Resources
http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/mer2003/topsites/final/
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html
For those with high speed Internet
http://www.nasa.gov/ram/35037main_portal.ram
The second Mars Explorer Rovers - Opportunity Lands:
January 25, 2004
about 4:05 pm UTC
http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/mer2003/topsites/final/
Cassini arrives at Saturn this Summer!
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/cassini/
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/index.cfm
[snip]
The most interesting aspect of the program was the astounding
advertised inablity of NASA to get anything done. They debated
running a pissy survivability test that they were going to run anyway
because the thing had to survive it anyway in the real world. The
parachute was especially diagnostic and damning. The top hole was too
big? Didn't anybody measure the thing before deployment testing? A
circuit board crapped out? How often does Dell, Gateway, IBM, HP...
recall boxes because of crappy boards? Critical missions should be
off-the-shelf. Continuous improvement works.
The hugely expensive wind tunnel was "cheaper and faster" than the
helicopter drop? Parachutes may be an arcane enginering task, but we
drop multi-tonne pallets and tanks and such from C-40s roaring along -
as well as the very heavy daisy cutter bomb - with no reliability
problems. Get a surplus military parachute. Make the rancid thing
out of Spectra and be done with it. Learn how to compactly fold a
chute.
Then there were the pyros. The only way to unmount them is to fire
them? In a project wherein every additional gram is a huge liability,
they're mounting 40 lumps of steel? The acres of gold plating were
precious, literally. How many automobiles are assembled in a clean
room, then to operate in the dirty real world? One suspects that the
high technology of radio controlled cars could be directly adapted
after suitable low-temp lubricants were installed. It's not like the
thing has to work for ten years.
Invent a battery that survives deep freezing.
Uncle Al really got jizzed when he saw a king's ransom of Kapton jury
rigged as a lens cover. One can only hope that they used special
$500/roll NASA adhesive tape instead of some brutally hate criminal
Scotch tape (and the niggardly cheapness that implies). Oh yeah...
don't forget the $50,000 computer-interfaced voice-actuated tape
dispensor specially designed and built for the project with
micromachined carbide jaws, real-time telemetry readouts being
recorded, and OSHA-approved multiply-redundant safety failsafes.
The last idiot in charge of NASA tryed it your way Al...
It don't work... cheaper and faster automatically means
its doomed to fail most the time....
Try re-reading for comprehension. Uncle Al supports quality - read
his 70,000 prior Usenet posts. Uncle Al decries Korporate Kulture
waste and money-lubricated incompentence. Turn an off-the-shelf
Keyhole satellite around 180 degrees and you have the Hubble
telescope. NASA built Hubble from customized scratch at 5X the cost
like a high school diorama project, and fucked up big time: the
mirror, the antenna feed, the gyros... which doubled and tripled the
cost again including transportation costs on the hopless Space
Scuttle. Doesn't anybody suspect?
The Mars stuff is gold-plated porkbarrel abuse. You do NOT want
micron tolerances like a Vietman M-16 rifle. You want a buggy that
works after a handful of dirt is tossed into the works, like an
AK-47. Soldiers in Nam died surrounded by WD-40 and Dry-Slide cans,
trying to make their weapons work. NASA missed Mars because it was
too fucking stoooopid to use metric units throughout (one shot) or
Swagelok fittings and other SOP industrial quality parts (the other
shot). If you want to save $20K in fittings, fire a $100K/year
administrator and embezzle the balance.
When one sees square feet of gold plating on an object that will
barely hit O C over its working lifetime, one comes to certain
conclusions. Aluminum dissipates static at 1/7 the weight. Robotic
soft logic control allowing for screwups is not some Tom Swiftian
scifi dream. Detroit does it on a huge scale. It isn't rocket
science - unless you are at money-is-no-object NASA. Did you see the
mirrors on the camera boom? Yeah, that's real smart in a dusty
environment. What does a Webcam cost? Piffle. What does a
multi-megapixel bellsa dn whistles digital camera cost? $400 retail.
Are they survivable in abusive environments? What do you think the
NASA custom-designed, custom-built cameras cost? Do you think NASA
uses lossy compression, LZW lossless compression, or shoot the images
home in maximum size BMP format? Uncle Al would bet NASA has a
proprietary format that is even fatter and sloppier than BMP - and
developed at astounding cost.
Do you think NASA is still using woven ferrite core memory? The first
Space Scuttle had it. How much space and power does four gigabytes of
9-bit (parity check) SDRAM demand? FlashRam?
Did you see the Mars rover booster vehicles? Central liquid fuel core
plus strap-on solid boosters; use once and toss. No Space Scuttle or
politically correct recycle to be seen anywhere. The 120 ton Space
Scuttle has a 30 ton payload. A Saturn MLV-V-3 booster with eight
Space Scuttle SSBs would have a 700 ton payload - that's 23 Space
Scuttle launches in one shot - about the MTBF of a single Space
Scuttle. Note that the Saturn's "obsolete" F-1A engines have about
4.8 times the thrust/deadweight as the Space Scuttle's liquid
engines. Uncle Al calls the Space Scuttle "improved means to
deteriorated ends." NASA itself is a boiler burning money for heat
and venting steam for "studies."
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/nasa3.htm
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!
.
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| User: "Bill Vajk" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 01:47:54 PM |
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Littlemanwearingbigboypants soils them once again:
Uncle Al supports quality - read
his 70,000 prior Usenet posts.
Short term memory failure alert!
.
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| User: "Robert J. Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 11:47:38 AM |
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Paul R. Mays wrote:
The last idiot in charge of NASA tryed it your way Al...
It don't work... cheaper and faster automatically means
its doomed to fail most the time....
Daniel Goldin (who is also the only President of Boston University fired
before he started work) promised better, faster, cheaper. One can
produce at most two of the three promised attributes.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Paul R. Mays" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 12:02:17 PM |
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"Robert J. Kolker" <bobkolker@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:_qhKb.133810$VB2.457375@attbi_s51...
Paul R. Mays wrote:
The last idiot in charge of NASA tryed it your way Al...
It don't work... cheaper and faster automatically means
its doomed to fail most the time....
Daniel Goldin (who is also the only President of Boston University fired
before he started work) promised better, faster, cheaper. One can
produce at most two of the three promised attributes.
Bob Kolker
Yep.. there we agree... "Faster, Better, Cheaper... Pick 2"
an engineering creed that goes back as long as I have been
making stuff go roundy, roundy.... I knew when I first heard
him make that statement that missions would fail and people
would die..... I even wrote several letters to that point
and only got a form letter "thank you for your input" response....
.
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| User: "starchaser" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
08 Jan 2004 02:48:08 AM |
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Uncle Al wrote:
The most interesting aspect of the program was the astounding
advertised inablity of NASA to get anything done. They debated
running a pissy survivability test that they were going to run anyway
because the thing had to survive it anyway in the real world. The
parachute was especially diagnostic and damning. The top hole was too
big? Didn't anybody measure the thing before deployment testing? A
circuit board crapped out? How often does Dell, Gateway, IBM, HP...
recall boxes because of crappy boards? Critical missions should be
off-the-shelf. Continuous improvement works.
The hugely expensive wind tunnel was "cheaper and faster" than the
helicopter drop? Parachutes may be an arcane enginering task, but we
drop multi-tonne pallets and tanks and such from C-40s roaring along -
as well as the very heavy daisy cutter bomb - with no reliability
problems. Get a surplus military parachute. Make the rancid thing
out of Spectra and be done with it. Learn how to compactly fold a
chute.
Then there were the pyros. The only way to unmount them is to fire
them? In a project wherein every additional gram is a huge liability,
they're mounting 40 lumps of steel? The acres of gold plating were
precious, literally. How many automobiles are assembled in a clean
room, then to operate in the dirty real world? One suspects that the
high technology of radio controlled cars could be directly adapted
after suitable low-temp lubricants were installed. It's not like the
thing has to work for ten years.
Invent a battery that survives deep freezing.
Uncle Al really got jizzed when he saw a king's ransom of Kapton jury
rigged as a lens cover. One can only hope that they used special
$500/roll NASA adhesive tape instead of some brutally hate criminal
Scotch tape (and the niggardly cheapness that implies). Oh yeah...
don't forget the $50,000 computer-interfaced voice-actuated tape
dispensor specially designed and built for the project with
micromachined carbide jaws, real-time telemetry readouts being
recorded, and OSHA-approved multiply-redundant safety failsafes.
You need a good laxative.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.
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| User: "Robert J. Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
08 Jan 2004 03:08:50 AM |
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starchaser wrote:
You need a good laxative.
Unc is right. NASA has spent 40 billions of dollars on ISS ***** Hole One
and one billion of our dollars on the MER which is second rate
technology. NASA has lost two missions to Mars because no one checked
the contractors to see which standard of measurement they were using.
How anyone can do high tech still using English measure is beyond my
understanding. And that tin plate goldbrick, Dan Goldin was lying
through his teeth when he promised better, faster, cheaper. This is the
same Dan Goldin who was fired from being president of Boston University
-before- he started work.
NASA is a fucked up, top heavy second rate outfit, run by managers who
are motivated by fear of having their funding cut off by Congress. Their
imperitive is never to be seen failing, lest the funding cease, so they
do stupid and desparate things and they lie to themselves, their workers
and to the government.
Those loss of two orbiters along with their crews is symptomatic of just
how bad things have gotten at the Agency. And what is more they lied to
their test pilots (all their flying crews are test pilots). The official
NASA estimate for fatal casualties in orbiter missions was one in ten
thousand. The actual figures are one in twenty five. That is pernicious
lying, and in a civilized society that would be criminally actionable.
The management at NASA bullied and browbeat the lower level engineers
who were trying to do the right thing, when these poor sincere schmucks
raised alarms over the equipment. Lower level engineers at Morton
Thiokol were pounded in to the ground like tent pegs when they warned
about launching Challenger in cold weathers. The upper management at
Morton Thiokol and NASA practically tore their nails out to get them to
sign off on the launch.
NASA was playing Russian roulette with orbiters that -routinely- shed
the outer layers of the fuel tanks on the leading edges of the wings.
That is how Columbia was lost. Not two days before launch the engineers
were exchanging e-mail on the possibilities of fatal damage caused by
collisions of the linings on the wing edges. Since management had gotten
away with this hazard for years they told their engineers to shut up if
they valued their jobs. The engineers shut up.
In a just society the managment would not only be removed, but jailed
for fraud and criminal negligence.
Bob Kolker
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
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| User: "Franz Heymann" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
08 Jan 2004 01:52:31 PM |
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"Robert J. Kolker" <bobkolker@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:C69Lb.93579$xX.627720@attbi_s02...
starchaser wrote:
You need a good laxative.
Unc is right. NASA has spent 40 billions of dollars on ISS ***** Hole One
and one billion of our dollars on the MER which is second rate
technology. NASA has lost two missions to Mars because no one checked
the contractors to see which standard of measurement they were using.
How anyone can do high tech still using English measure is beyond my
understanding. And that tin plate goldbrick, Dan Goldin was lying
through his teeth when he promised better, faster, cheaper. This is the
same Dan Goldin who was fired from being president of Boston University
-before- he started work.
NASA is a fucked up, top heavy second rate outfit, run by managers who
are motivated by fear of having their funding cut off by Congress. Their
imperitive is never to be seen failing, lest the funding cease, so they
do stupid and desparate things and they lie to themselves, their workers
and to the government.
Those loss of two orbiters along with their crews is symptomatic of just
how bad things have gotten at the Agency. And what is more they lied to
their test pilots (all their flying crews are test pilots). The official
NASA estimate for fatal casualties in orbiter missions was one in ten
thousand. The actual figures are one in twenty five. That is pernicious
lying, and in a civilized society that would be criminally actionable.
The management at NASA bullied and browbeat the lower level engineers
who were trying to do the right thing, when these poor sincere schmucks
raised alarms over the equipment. Lower level engineers at Morton
Thiokol were pounded in to the ground like tent pegs when they warned
about launching Challenger in cold weathers. The upper management at
Morton Thiokol and NASA practically tore their nails out to get them to
sign off on the launch.
NASA was playing Russian roulette with orbiters that -routinely- shed
the outer layers of the fuel tanks on the leading edges of the wings.
That is how Columbia was lost. Not two days before launch the engineers
were exchanging e-mail on the possibilities of fatal damage caused by
collisions of the linings on the wing edges. Since management had gotten
away with this hazard for years they told their engineers to shut up if
they valued their jobs. The engineers shut up.
In a just society the managment would not only be removed, but jailed
for fraud and criminal negligence.
At last there is an item on which we can agree. NASA certainly has ballsed
up a lot of stuff, but that is not a reason for turning away from space
research.
Franz
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| User: "Robert J. Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
08 Jan 2004 04:26:36 PM |
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Franz Heymann wrote:
At last there is an item on which we can agree. NASA certainly has ballsed
up a lot of stuff, but that is not a reason for turning away from space
research.d
If the space program had to turn a profit, it would be better managed.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Robert J. Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
04 Jan 2004 10:34:58 PM |
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Sam Wormley wrote:
Dear Everybody--Nova (PBS) normally airs on Tuesday evenings
and will do so again, Tuesday, January 6th. It will be the
same excellent program that aired tonight (Sunday) but promises
to include in its last five minutes the latest images (in color)
from Gusev Crater (what is believed to have once been a terminal
lake basin) on Mars.
These rovers are like remote geologists on wheels... It's the best
we can do right now as they extend some of our senses down to the
planet's surface!
And they only cost $400,000,000 apiece. What a bargain! And how much new
technology is spinning off of that effort?
Wouldn't it be nice if our space effort actually paid for itself?
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Franz Heymann" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 03:56:16 AM |
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"Robert J. Kolker" <bobkolker@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:SP5Kb.222456$8y1.901004@attbi_s52...
Sam Wormley wrote:
Dear Everybody--Nova (PBS) normally airs on Tuesday evenings
and will do so again, Tuesday, January 6th. It will be the
same excellent program that aired tonight (Sunday) but promises
to include in its last five minutes the latest images (in color)
from Gusev Crater (what is believed to have once been a terminal
lake basin) on Mars.
These rovers are like remote geologists on wheels... It's the best
we can do right now as they extend some of our senses down to the
planet's surface!
And they only cost $400,000,000 apiece. What a bargain! And how much new
technology is spinning off of that effort?
Wouldn't it be nice if our space effort actually paid for itself?
Ye gods, does everything have to be measured in terms of financial return?
Have you realised that if you were to switch off your space research, a
large industry would grind to a halt, thus driving your country even further
into bankruptcy than it already is?
Franz
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| User: "Robert J. Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 08:00:16 AM |
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Franz Heymann wrote:
Have you realised that if you were to switch off your space research, a
large industry would grind to a halt, thus driving your country even further
into bankruptcy than it already is?
That is interesting. You think that spending money we don't have will
save us from bankruptcy. That is curious to say the least.
You presume two facts not in evidence; one: that our space program
benefits the economy and two: there are no better uses for the money so
taken.
If the money spent had something to do with our defense or maintaining
order and justice in the land, I could abide the expenditure. But
sending golf carts to Mars does not fit that description.
If we want space exploration, I propose we all join the L5 Society and
fund it in a voluntary fashion.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Franz Heymann" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
10 Jan 2004 10:42:34 AM |
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"Robert J. Kolker" <bobkolker@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:Q5eKb.66885$xX.426666@attbi_s02...
Franz Heymann wrote:
Have you realised that if you were to switch off your space research, a
large industry would grind to a halt, thus driving your country even
further
into bankruptcy than it already is?
That is interesting. You think that spending money we don't have will
save us from bankruptcy. That is curious to say the least.
There is nothing curious about governments attempting to maintain industrial
activity in some field or other, in order to try to maintain its viability,
or the expertise present in that activity.
You presume two facts not in evidence; one: that our space program
benefits the economy and two: there are no better uses for the money so
taken.
I said that there are large industrial activities which are kept alive by
the space programme.
If the money spent had something to do with our defense or maintaining
order and justice in the land, I could abide the expenditure. But
sending golf carts to Mars does not fit that description.
It does.
The expertise developed in the process of sending golf carts careering
around on Mars could be very useful in other fields, like defence.
If we want space exploration, I propose we all join the L5 Society and
fund it in a voluntary fashion.
Franz
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 04:08:27 AM |
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In article <btbcbv$qri$4@titan.btinternet.com>, "Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> writes:
"Robert J. Kolker" <bobkolker@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:SP5Kb.222456$8y1.901004@attbi_s52...
Sam Wormley wrote:
Dear Everybody--Nova (PBS) normally airs on Tuesday evenings
and will do so again, Tuesday, January 6th. It will be the
same excellent program that aired tonight (Sunday) but promises
to include in its last five minutes the latest images (in color)
from Gusev Crater (what is believed to have once been a terminal
lake basin) on Mars.
These rovers are like remote geologists on wheels... It's the best
we can do right now as they extend some of our senses down to the
planet's surface!
And they only cost $400,000,000 apiece. What a bargain! And how much new
technology is spinning off of that effort?
Wouldn't it be nice if our space effort actually paid for itself?
Ye gods, does everything have to be measured in terms of financial return?
Have you realised that if you were to switch off your space research, a
large industry would grind to a halt, thus driving your country even further
into bankruptcy than it already is?
Eh? NASA's budget is of the order of 10 G$ a year. Mind you, not all
of this is going to space research (in fact, just a rather small
fraction does) and not all of this translates to orders to industry
(no, not even most of this). But even if you take the whole sum, it
amounts to about 0.1% of the US GNP. The breakfast cereal industry is
much larger than this.
As for "bankruptcy", I'll bring to your attention that the US economy
is one of the very few western economies that are actually growing.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
.
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| User: "Franz Heymann" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 10:21:40 AM |
|
|
<mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:vIaKb.6$Y4.6358@news.uchicago.edu...
In article <btbcbv$qri$4@titan.btinternet.com>, "Franz Heymann"
<notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> writes:
"Robert J. Kolker" <bobkolker@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:SP5Kb.222456$8y1.901004@attbi_s52...
Sam Wormley wrote:
Dear Everybody--Nova (PBS) normally airs on Tuesday evenings
and will do so again, Tuesday, January 6th. It will be the
same excellent program that aired tonight (Sunday) but promises
to include in its last five minutes the latest images (in color)
from Gusev Crater (what is believed to have once been a terminal
lake basin) on Mars.
These rovers are like remote geologists on wheels... It's the best
we can do right now as they extend some of our senses down to the
planet's surface!
And they only cost $400,000,000 apiece. What a bargain! And how much
new
technology is spinning off of that effort?
Wouldn't it be nice if our space effort actually paid for itself?
Ye gods, does everything have to be measured in terms of financial
return?
Have you realised that if you were to switch off your space research, a
large industry would grind to a halt, thus driving your country even
further
into bankruptcy than it already is?
Eh? NASA's budget is of the order of 10 G$ a year. Mind you, not all
of this is going to space research (in fact, just a rather small
fraction does) and not all of this translates to orders to industry
(no, not even most of this). But even if you take the whole sum, it
amounts to about 0.1% of the US GNP. The breakfast cereal industry is
much larger than this.
As for "bankruptcy", I'll bring to your attention that the US economy
is one of the very few western economies that are actually growing.
You are technically a bankrupt country.
You have not balanced your budget in ages and you are not in balance in your
external trading.
You are buying so much more than you are earning that various Asian
organisations are buying their way into US institutions at an alarming rate
with their excess dollars.
Franz
.
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| User: "Richard Henry" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 11:00:28 AM |
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"Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:btc2uj$74i$5@sparta.btinternet.com...
You are technically a bankrupt country.
I think not. Our assets exceed our liabilities.
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| User: "Greg Neill" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 01:00:42 PM |
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"Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com> wrote in message
news:PKgKb.17846$7D3.3497@fed1read02...
"Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:btc2uj$74i$5@sparta.btinternet.com...
You are technically a bankrupt country.
I think not. Our assets exceed our liabilities.
Which assets, totaling some seven trillion dollars
in value, are you willing to part with? :-)
.
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| User: "Richard Henry" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 01:08:04 PM |
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"Greg Neill" <gneillREM@OVE.netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:UuiKb.83300$by2.972260@wagner.videotron.net...
"Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com> wrote in message
news:PKgKb.17846$7D3.3497@fed1read02...
"Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:btc2uj$74i$5@sparta.btinternet.com...
You are technically a bankrupt country.
I think not. Our assets exceed our liabilities.
Which assets, totaling some seven trillion dollars
in value, are you willing to part with? :-)
To avoid bankruptcy, it is nor necessary to liquidate, only to keep up with
curent obligations.
But, to play along with your game, what am I bid for Yosemite?
.
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| User: "Greg Neill" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 02:59:43 PM |
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"Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com> wrote in message
news:rCiKb.17859$7D3.7193@fed1read02...
"Greg Neill" <gneillREM@OVE.netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:UuiKb.83300$by2.972260@wagner.videotron.net...
"Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com> wrote in message
news:PKgKb.17846$7D3.3497@fed1read02...
"Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:btc2uj$74i$5@sparta.btinternet.com...
You are technically a bankrupt country.
I think not. Our assets exceed our liabilities.
Which assets, totaling some seven trillion dollars
in value, are you willing to part with? :-)
To avoid bankruptcy, it is nor necessary to liquidate, only to keep up
with
curent obligations.
But, to play along with your game, what am I bid for Yosemite?
I'm just the bankruptcy broker. The current high bid is
eight billion Malaysian ringgits. The client expects immediate
occupancy for bulldozing operations in preparation for settlement
by some two million immigrants. :-)
.
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| User: "Bruce Scott TOK" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 02:03:10 PM |
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Richard Henry wrote:
|> To avoid bankruptcy, it is nor necessary to liquidate, only to keep up with
|> curent obligations.
|>
|> But, to play along with your game, what am I bid for Yosemite?
Don't worry, in a decade or two it will be full of Germans, some of
whom will own it...
--
cu,
Bruce
drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 02:10:26 PM |
|
|
In article <btc2uj$74i$5@sparta.btinternet.com>, "Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> writes:
<mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:vIaKb.6$Y4.6358@news.uchicago.edu...
In article <btbcbv$qri$4@titan.btinternet.com>, "Franz Heymann"
<notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> writes:
"Robert J. Kolker" <bobkolker@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:SP5Kb.222456$8y1.901004@attbi_s52...
Sam Wormley wrote:
Dear Everybody--Nova (PBS) normally airs on Tuesday evenings
and will do so again, Tuesday, January 6th. It will be the
same excellent program that aired tonight (Sunday) but promises
to include in its last five minutes the latest images (in color)
from Gusev Crater (what is believed to have once been a terminal
lake basin) on Mars.
These rovers are like remote geologists on wheels... It's the best
we can do right now as they extend some of our senses down to the
planet's surface!
And they only cost $400,000,000 apiece. What a bargain! And how much
new
technology is spinning off of that effort?
Wouldn't it be nice if our space effort actually paid for itself?
Ye gods, does everything have to be measured in terms of financial
return?
Have you realised that if you were to switch off your space research, a
large industry would grind to a halt, thus driving your country even
further
into bankruptcy than it already is?
Eh? NASA's budget is of the order of 10 G$ a year. Mind you, not all
of this is going to space research (in fact, just a rather small
fraction does) and not all of this translates to orders to industry
(no, not even most of this). But even if you take the whole sum, it
amounts to about 0.1% of the US GNP. The breakfast cereal industry is
much larger than this.
As for "bankruptcy", I'll bring to your attention that the US economy
is one of the very few western economies that are actually growing.
You are technically a bankrupt country.
You have not balanced your budget in ages and you are not in balance in your
external trading.
You're bankrupt when you can no longer pay for what you want. It is
that simple.
You are buying so much more than you are earning that various Asian
organisations are buying their way into US institutions at an alarming rate
with their excess dollars.
Alarming? Why? This is a global wealth equalization process, very
positive. When countries jump far ahead of other ones in standard of
living, thus becoming too expensive to carry carry various economic
activities, said activities move elsewhere, allowing other countries
to catch up. A great mechanism of wealth equalization, incomparably
more useful than international aid which hardly ever helped anybody.
Japan primed its economic development by being a cheap manufacturing
source for US customers. Then, in turn, Taiwan and S. Korea became
cheap manufacturing sources for Japan. Then, in turn ... and so it
keeps going. As I said, very positive. The more players are plugged
into the enterprise, the more vested interest there is in keeping it
going.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
.
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| User: "Happy Dog" |
|
| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 02:27:37 AM |
|
|
"Robert J. Kolker" <bobkolker@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:SP5Kb.222456$8y1.901004@attbi_s52...
Sam Wormley wrote:
Dear Everybody--Nova (PBS) normally airs on Tuesday evenings
and will do so again, Tuesday, January 6th. It will be the
same excellent program that aired tonight (Sunday) but promises
to include in its last five minutes the latest images (in color)
from Gusev Crater (what is believed to have once been a terminal
lake basin) on Mars.
These rovers are like remote geologists on wheels... It's the best
we can do right now as they extend some of our senses down to the
planet's surface!
And they only cost $400,000,000 apiece. What a bargain! And how much new
technology is spinning off of that effort?
Gee. Just to make your position solid, tell us which government programs,
big ones, you think really are a bargain.
Wouldn't it be nice if our space effort actually paid for itself?
You mean made a financial profit? Sure. Assuming that you see some value
in exploration, what programs of this nature could pay for themselves in the
short term?
le moo
.
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| User: "Robert J. Kolker" |
|
| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 07:46:37 AM |
|
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Happy Dog wrote:
You mean made a financial profit? Sure. Assuming that you see some value
in exploration, what programs of this nature could pay for themselves in the
short term?
None. Projects that don't pay should be supported by voluntary
subscription. We could all join the L5 Society, for example. Nearly one
billion dollars on a pair of landers that will be dead in 90 days, and
will probably tell us there is no water on Mars. Whoopie!. I would
rather the money be invested in finding cures to contagious diseases
that might afflict you and me. In the mean time we have billions
invested in space communications which have the virtue of being of some
use to some people and are paid for privately. If you don't want to pay,
then don't use a cellphone or a datalink to and from an orbiting comsat.
Bob Kolker
.
|
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 06:44:35 AM |
|
|
In article <1VdKb.755898$Fm2.701597@attbi_s04>,
"Robert J. Kolker" <bobkolker@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote:
Happy Dog wrote:
You mean made a financial profit? Sure. Assuming that you see some
value
in exploration, what programs of this nature could pay for themselves in
the
short term?
None. Projects that don't pay should be supported by voluntary
subscription. We could all join the L5 Society, for example. Nearly one
billion dollars on a pair of landers that will be dead in 90 days, and
will probably tell us there is no water on Mars. Whoopie!. I would
rather the money be invested in finding cures to contagious diseases
that might afflict you and me. In the mean time we have billions
invested in space communications which have the virtue of being of some
use to some people and are paid for privately. If you don't want to pay,
then don't use a cellphone or a datalink to and from an orbiting comsat.
And you would have never been able to access an orbiting comsat
IF there had never been a goverment doing the R&D work first.
There isn't any way you can predict what will and what will not
be a side effect of space exploration. The only thing you can
predict is that, if there is none, there will be no side effects.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
.
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| User: "W. Snell" |
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| Title: Re: Nova (PBS) Tuesday - EXCELLENT Program |
05 Jan 2004 08:39:07 AM |
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"Robert J. Kolker" <bobkolker@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message news:<SP5Kb.222456$8y1.901004@attbi_s52>...
And they only cost $400,000,000 apiece. What a bargain! And how much new
technology is spinning off of that effort?
Wouldn't it be nice if our space effort actually paid for itself?
Bob Kolker
I want Congress to spend even MORE on Mars exploration. This stuff is
very entertaining. Even more so than your posts.
.
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