| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Lachlan" |
| Date: |
03 Jan 2007 10:48:26 PM |
| Object: |
Perfect mirror energy store, Questions |
Just some thous.. ? on Perfect Mirror energy storing device.
Please ignore, the practical side, as this is just about the physics
of such a device.
We have say.. device, say perfect mirrored hollow shape of some
sort.. ball ..etc..
We can add photon's of some freq.. etc, red.. yellow.. etc light.
being perfect they get reflected for ever. (Once again ignore the
practical side !)
We also have a way of letting photon's out.. .. say one side..
1: if we add photon's.. what's limit to how much photo's/energy we
could add.. ?
Example.. device is 1cm inside diameter, we put in the energy
100 ton's of mater (e=em2)
in photo's, or pick your own number... say energy of earth
mass conversed to photon's
2? if we weight the the deice on earth.. say how much would it
weight, if any thing ?
3? if we tried to move it.. would we be moving (e=mc2) converted to
mass ? (IE it would have inertia )
4? Standing on the earth surface.. and drooping it, would if drop as
per normal physics of a ball
or would be the ratio of the mass deice to the (e=mc2) of the
energy inside ?( IE it would drop-
slower than the standard ball.. of the same mass )?
4? So we put the energy of the earth.. sun.. inside, wood if have a
gravity field
5? If so, would if from a Black hole given the we add the required
energy to size ratio for what a
ever a black hole is.
6? If we let photo's out one side. would we the device move, and what
feq change if the photo's
would we see exiting the deice.
Oh.. thats about all ? I can think of, thanks to any one who can
answers.
Lachlan Audas
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| User: "Robin" |
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| Title: Re: Perfect mirror energy store, Questions |
07 Jan 2007 10:23:14 PM |
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There is a product out there that may facilatate your device. I've
seem them in science stores. Two 8" parabolic mirrors are cupped toward
each other which reflects the item on the bottom inside of the two
cupped mirrors. This device is not first reflective but it's much
better than I've ever seen.
I don't know much about photonics but I've suggesed this in the past
and some turned out well.
Lachlan wrote:
Just some thous.. ? on Perfect Mirror energy storing device.
Please ignore, the practical side, as this is just about the physics
of such a device.
We have say.. device, say perfect mirrored hollow shape of some
sort.. ball ..etc..
We can add photon's of some freq.. etc, red.. yellow.. etc light.
being perfect they get reflected for ever. (Once again ignore the
practical side !)
We also have a way of letting photon's out.. .. say one side..
1: if we add photon's.. what's limit to how much photo's/energy we
could add.. ?
Example.. device is 1cm inside diameter, we put in the energy
100 ton's of mater (e=em2)
in photo's, or pick your own number... say energy of earth
mass conversed to photon's
2? if we weight the the deice on earth.. say how much would it
weight, if any thing ?
3? if we tried to move it.. would we be moving (e=mc2) converted to
mass ? (IE it would have inertia )
4? Standing on the earth surface.. and drooping it, would if drop as
per normal physics of a ball
or would be the ratio of the mass deice to the (e=mc2) of the
energy inside ?( IE it would drop-
slower than the standard ball.. of the same mass )?
4? So we put the energy of the earth.. sun.. inside, wood if have a
gravity field
5? If so, would if from a Black hole given the we add the required
energy to size ratio for what a
ever a black hole is.
6? If we let photo's out one side. would we the device move, and what
feq change if the photo's
would we see exiting the deice.
Oh.. thats about all ? I can think of, thanks to any one who can
answers.
Lachlan Audas
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Perfect mirror energy store, Questions |
03 Jan 2007 11:46:28 PM |
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In article <1167886105.473501.110220@6g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>, "Lachlan" <laudas@cosmosc.com> writes:
Just some thous.. ? on Perfect Mirror energy storing device.
Please ignore, the practical side, as this is just about the physics
of such a device.
We have say.. device, say perfect mirrored hollow shape of some
sort.. ball ..etc..
We can add photon's of some freq.. etc, red.. yellow.. etc light.
being perfect they get reflected for ever. (Once again ignore the
practical side !)
We also have a way of letting photon's out.. .. say one side..
1: if we add photon's.. what's limit to how much photo's/energy we
could add.. ?
Example.. device is 1cm inside diameter, we put in the energy
100 ton's of mater (e=em2)
in photo's, or pick your own number... say energy of earth
mass conversed to photon's
Ignoring the practical side (as stipulated), classically there are no
limits. Relativistically, at some point the thing will collapse into
a black hole, but this point is far away.
2? if we weight the the deice on earth.. say how much would it
weight, if any thing ?
It'll have a mass of m = e/c^2.
3? if we tried to move it.. would we be moving (e=mc2) converted to
mass ? (IE it would have inertia )
Yep.
4? Standing on the earth surface.. and drooping it, would if drop as
per normal physics of a ball
or would be the ratio of the mass deice to the (e=mc2) of the
energy inside ?( IE it would drop-
slower than the standard ball.. of the same mass )?
It'll bahave as any other object of this mass i.e. e/c^2 (plus
whatever mass the envelope has).
4? So we put the energy of the earth.. sun.. inside, wood if have a
gravity field
of course.
5? If so, would if from a Black hole given the we add the required
energy to size ratio for what a
ever a black hole is.
You mean whether it can become a black hole? Yes.
6? If we let photo's out one side. would we the device move,
Yes.
and what feq change if the photo's would we see exiting the deice.
Translation, please:-)
Oh.. thats about all ? I can think of, thanks to any one who can
answers.
Lachlan Audas
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
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| User: "Edward Green" |
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| Title: Re: Perfect mirror energy store, Questions |
04 Jan 2007 03:03:29 AM |
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wrote:
In article <1167886105.473501.110220@6g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>, "Lachlan" <laudas@cosmosc.com> writes:
<...>
We can add photon's of some freq.. etc, red.. yellow.. etc light.
being perfect they get reflected for ever. (Once again ignore the
practical side !)
<...>
and what feq change if the photo's would we see exiting the deice.
Translation, please:-)
I conjecture that the OP is asking, if we "injected a red photon", and
some time later "the same photon" came out the hole, what frequency
shift would be observed?
I can think of a number of answers which serve mainly to show what a
clever fellow I am. ;-)
* If purely coherent light were trapped between two mirrors, then
escaped, to first order we expect no frequency shift.
* The light however cannot be purely coherent, because it was injected
as a wavetrain of finite length
* A pure standing wave, however, set up between two mirrors, could be
of a pure frequency
I'm not sure how we get a "pure standing wave" out, however. If we
imagine the pulse/photon as bouncing back and forth between the
mirrors, so that we can remove one while the photon isn't looking, then
it wasn't described as a standing wave in the first place. If we
really have a standing wave, the result depends on the details of how
we pull out the mirror. And if we pull the mirror out like an ideal
guillotine blade... ?
I suppose the instantaneous decomposition into left and right traveling
waves applies, and the one headed towards the mirror exits in good
order, followed by the other half, on reflection from the remaining
mirror. Ideal dispersionless wave propagation, we now notice,
challenges our off hand "finite wave pulses show frequency spread".
A wave train consisting of a certain number of cycles of a fixed
frequency/wavelength with unceremonious terminal cut-offs is as good as
any other wave shape, and may propagate in that form. What is the
"frequency spread" of this wave shape? Analyzing this shape via
Fourier integral, we undoubtedly find one. As the train is passing,
though, it is indistinguishable from an infinite monochromatic wave
train.
Further ideal corrections include
* shift from recoil of the mirrors
* red shift from gravitating mass of the source
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Perfect mirror energy store, Questions |
04 Jan 2007 03:51:56 AM |
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In article <1167901409.005617.189150@42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>, "Edward Green" <spamspamspam3@netzero.com> writes:
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:
In article <1167886105.473501.110220@6g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>, "Lachlan" <laudas@cosmosc.com> writes:
<...>
We can add photon's of some freq.. etc, red.. yellow.. etc light.
being perfect they get reflected for ever. (Once again ignore the
practical side !)
<...>
and what feq change if the photo's would we see exiting the deice.
Translation, please:-)
I conjecture that the OP is asking, if we "injected a red photon", and
some time later "the same photon" came out the hole, what frequency
shift would be observed?
I can think of a number of answers which serve mainly to show what a
clever fellow I am. ;-)
OK, go for it.
* If purely coherent light were trapped between two mirrors, then
escaped, to first order we expect no frequency shift.
agreed.
* The light however cannot be purely coherent, because it was injected
as a wavetrain of finite length
In fact, as far as we knoe, it was injected as an arbitrary number of
wavetrains with finite length. Thus, subject to the data provided, it
can be anything.
* A pure standing wave, however, set up between two mirrors, could be
of a pure frequency
Fine, but...
I'm not sure how we get a "pure standing wave" out, however. If we
imagine the pulse/photon as bouncing back and forth between the
mirrors, so that we can remove one while the photon isn't looking, then
it wasn't described as a standing wave in the first place. If we
really have a standing wave, the result depends on the details of how
we pull out the mirror. And if we pull the mirror out like an ideal
guillotine blade... ?
I suppose the instantaneous decomposition into left and right traveling
waves applies, and the one headed towards the mirror exits in good
order, followed by the other half, on reflection from the remaining
mirror. Ideal dispersionless wave propagation, we now notice,
challenges our off hand "finite wave pulses show frequency spread".
A wave train consisting of a certain number of cycles of a fixed
frequency/wavelength with unceremonious terminal cut-offs is as good as
any other wave shape, and may propagate in that form. What is the
"frequency spread" of this wave shape? Analyzing this shape via
Fourier integral, we undoubtedly find one. As the train is passing,
though, it is indistinguishable from an infinite monochromatic wave
train.
Aha.
Further ideal corrections include
* shift from recoil of the mirrors
* red shift from gravitating mass of the source
Well, by now that should be enough for at least a doctoral
thesis.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
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| User: "Edward Green" |
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| Title: Re: Perfect mirror energy store, Questions |
04 Jan 2007 06:19:26 PM |
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wrote:
<...>
Well, by now that should be enough for at least a doctoral
thesis.
Well... you ought to know better than I! But just to play straight man
'Can such silliness _really_ be the basis of doctoral thesis'?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Perfect mirror energy store, Questions |
05 Jan 2007 01:22:21 AM |
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In article <1167956366.065660.255900@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Edward Green" <spamspamspam3@netzero.com> writes:
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:
<...>
Well, by now that should be enough for at least a doctoral
thesis.
Well... you ought to know better than I! But just to play straight man
'Can such silliness _really_ be the basis of doctoral thesis'?
The world has seen worse and survived:-)
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
.
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| User: "Autymn D. C." |
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| Title: Re: Perfect mirror energy store, Questions |
03 Jan 2007 11:18:39 PM |
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Learn what apostr=F2fes are for.
The fota are somewhat limited by the size of the ball; you must make
sure that there's nothing else in the univers that will soak up the
farfield. Then with a perfect reflector it already presupposes
infinite binding =E8n=E8rjy or mass, so you needn't worry about whit you
store; there will be infinite quantum levels to mutual charges of zere
size. You can answer everything else.
-Aut
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| User: "Edward Green" |
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| Title: Re: Perfect mirror energy store, Questions |
04 Jan 2007 03:07:12 AM |
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Autymn D. C. wrote:
Learn what apostr=F2fes are for.
The fota are somewhat limited by the size of the ball; you must make
sure that there's nothing else in the univers that will soak up the
farfield. Then with a perfect reflector it already presupposes
infinite binding =E8n=E8rjy or mass, so you needn't worry about whit you
store; there will be infinite quantum levels to mutual charges of zere
size. You can answer everything else.
Is this the man who once spelling flamed me?
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