| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Azor" |
| Date: |
19 Sep 2006 11:09:48 PM |
| Object: |
Permanent Magnet Motor |
Can someone out there tell me why this model wont work.
Get a donut shaped perfectly circular magnet, with the north pole on
the inside of the hole, and the south pole on the outside of the donut.
Place a bar magnet on the exact center of the hole with an axle punched
through the south pole end, and the north pole end facing the north
pole side of the donut magnet. Cut a small triangular notch out of the
bar magnet's north pole end so one side of it is closer to the donut
magnet than the other.
Shouldn't this cause the bar magnet to rotate, depending on the side
that you cut the notch out of.
Supposing it does. What if you then hooked it up to an electric
generator which powers a coil of wires around the donut magnet, turning
it into an electromagnet with the same original properties. Wouldn't
this have a feedback type of effect, where the increased momentum from
the rotational force causing the generator to pump out a larger
current, which in turn increases the field strength of the
electromagnet?
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| User: "CWatters" |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
20 Sep 2006 01:41:16 AM |
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"Azor" <aaron.rogerson@nt.gov.au> wrote in message
news:1158725388.396904.155340@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Can someone out there tell me why this model wont work.
Get a donut shaped perfectly circular magnet, with the north pole on
the inside of the hole, and the south pole on the outside of the donut.
Place a bar magnet on the exact center of the hole with an axle punched
through the south pole end, and the north pole end facing the north
pole side of the donut magnet. Cut a small triangular notch out of the
bar magnet's north pole end so one side of it is closer to the donut
magnet than the other.
The fields allways distort themselves so that no rotation occurs.
Google will find a loads of variants on this theme.
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| User: "Sorcerer" |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
20 Sep 2006 08:13:36 AM |
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"Azor" <aaron.rogerson@nt.gov.au> wrote in message
news:1158725388.396904.155340@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
| Can someone out there tell me why this model wont work.
|
| Get a donut shaped perfectly circular magnet, with the north pole on
| the inside of the hole, and the south pole on the outside of the donut.
Take a loudspeaker apart.
| Place a bar magnet on the exact center of the hole with an axle punched
| through the south pole end, and the north pole end facing the north
| pole side of the donut magnet.
| Cut a small triangular notch out of the
| bar magnet's north pole end so one side of it is closer to the donut
| magnet than the other.
|
| Shouldn't this cause the bar magnet to rotate, depending on the side
| that you cut the notch out of.
NO.
|
| Supposing it does.
NO.
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| User: "pom" |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
20 Sep 2006 12:23:46 AM |
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Azor a écrit :
Can someone out there tell me why this model wont work.
Get a donut shaped perfectly circular magnet, with the north pole on
the inside of the hole, and the south pole on the outside of the donut.
Place a bar magnet on the exact center of the hole with an axle punched
through the south pole end, and the north pole end facing the north
pole side of the donut magnet. Cut a small triangular notch out of the
bar magnet's north pole end so one side of it is closer to the donut
magnet than the other.
Shouldn't this cause the bar magnet to rotate, depending on the side
that you cut the notch out of.
Supposing it does. What if you then hooked it up to an electric
generator which powers a coil of wires around the donut magnet, turning
it into an electromagnet with the same original properties. Wouldn't
this have a feedback type of effect, where the increased momentum from
the rotational force causing the generator to pump out a larger
current, which in turn increases the field strength of the
electromagnet?
Hello.
in this type of cases, I ask myself the question : what is the variation
of potential energy when I rotate the bar through a small angle DeltaAlpa?
Due to the symmetry of the "doughnut"-field this energy is the same for
any angle.
Conclusion : so, why should it budge???
anothe perpetuum mobile down the drain...
pom
It
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| User: "Azor" |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
20 Sep 2006 06:44:10 AM |
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Hello.
in this type of cases, I ask myself the question : what is the variation
of potential energy when I rotate the bar through a small angle DeltaAlpa?
Due to the symmetry of the "doughnut"-field this energy is the same for
any angle.
Conclusion : so, why should it budge???
anothe perpetuum mobile down the drain...
pom
It
I can see how the symmetry of the doughnut magnet has the same force at
all
angles. That is why the inner bar magnet has an angle cut out, so that
there is
unequal magnetic forces acting on it. Maybe I'm missing something here.
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| User: "Azor" |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
20 Sep 2006 11:27:32 PM |
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in this type of cases, I ask myself the question : what is the variation
of potential energy when I rotate the bar through a small angle DeltaAlpa?
Due to the symmetry of the "doughnut"-field this energy is the same for
any angle.
Conclusion : so, why should it budge???
anothe perpetuum mobile down the drain...
pom
It
Strictly speaking following the theory that the device operates by
converting magnetic field strength to magnetomotive force, it isnt a
perpetual motion device as there will be an eventual dissipation of
field strength. At this point the device will stop spinning.
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| User: "RP" |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
20 Sep 2006 07:38:29 AM |
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Azor wrote:
Can someone out there tell me why this model wont work.
Get a donut shaped perfectly circular magnet, with the north pole on
the inside of the hole, and the south pole on the outside of the donut.
Place a bar magnet on the exact center of the hole with an axle punched
through the south pole end, and the north pole end facing the north
pole side of the donut magnet. Cut a small triangular notch out of the
bar magnet's north pole end so one side of it is closer to the donut
magnet than the other.
Shouldn't this cause the bar magnet to rotate, depending on the side
that you cut the notch out of.
Supposing it does. What if you then hooked it up to an electric
generator which powers a coil of wires around the donut magnet, turning
it into an electromagnet with the same original properties. Wouldn't
this have a feedback type of effect, where the increased momentum from
the rotational force causing the generator to pump out a larger
current, which in turn increases the field strength of the
electromagnet?
Conservation of energy prohibits it. There is no way to explain the
fallacy of your experiment in terms that would make it any more clear
to you. But if this is what intrigues you, then don't stop trying to
beat conservation of energy, because in the attemp you might learn some
useful physics. You may even finally come to a point where you
understand why conservation of energy cannot be beaten.
Richard Perry
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| User: "Azor" |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
20 Sep 2006 08:38:05 PM |
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Conservation of energy prohibits it. There is no way to explain the
fallacy of your experiment in terms that would make it any more clear
to you. But if this is what intrigues you, then don't stop trying to
beat conservation of energy, because in the attemp you might learn some
useful physics. You may even finally come to a point where you
understand why conservation of energy cannot be beaten.
Richard Perry
Thanks for that Richard. I understand the mechanisms behind the
conservation of energy.
Currently physics classifies the fundamental forces as the strong
force, the weak force, Gravity, and the electromagnetic force. Could
electromagnetic force (specifically magnetic force) be converted to
kinetic energy? EG:- a magnet's strength is reduced a certain amount by
converting field strength to magnetomotive force?
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| User: "RP" |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
20 Sep 2006 08:51:13 PM |
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Azor wrote:
Conservation of energy prohibits it. There is no way to explain the
fallacy of your experiment in terms that would make it any more clear
to you. But if this is what intrigues you, then don't stop trying to
beat conservation of energy, because in the attemp you might learn some
useful physics. You may even finally come to a point where you
understand why conservation of energy cannot be beaten.
Richard Perry
Thanks for that Richard. I understand the mechanisms behind the
conservation of energy.
Currently physics classifies the fundamental forces as the strong
force, the weak force, Gravity, and the electromagnetic force. Could
electromagnetic force (specifically magnetic force) be converted to
kinetic energy? EG:- a magnet's strength is reduced a certain amount by
converting field strength to magnetomotive force?
Yes. A basic example of this is two superconducting loops. If the
currents in the loops are flowing in the same circular direction, and
the planes of the loops are parallel, etc., etc., then the fields
interact to produce a magnetic attraction between the loops. The loops
are simple magnets. The approach of the loops will generate an emf that
reduces the current within them, thus reducing their magnetic fields.
Conversely, as the loops are pulled apart the current will increase.
This also occurs to some extent when using hard magnets. The processes
can be adiabatic or isothermic.
Richard Perry
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| User: "Azor" |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
20 Sep 2006 09:05:09 PM |
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Yes. A basic example of this is two superconducting loops. If the
currents in the loops are flowing in the same circular direction, and
the planes of the loops are parallel, etc., etc., then the fields
interact to produce a magnetic attraction between the loops. The loops
are simple magnets. The approach of the loops will generate an emf that
reduces the current within them, thus reducing their magnetic fields.
Conversely, as the loops are pulled apart the current will increase.
This also occurs to some extent when using hard magnets. The processes
can be adiabatic or isothermic.
Richard Perry
So does this provide a possible explanation for why such a device would
not violate the conservation of energy theory? If there is actually a
conversion of field intensity to magnetomotive force?
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| User: "RP" |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
20 Sep 2006 10:31:53 PM |
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Azor wrote:
Yes. A basic example of this is two superconducting loops. If the
currents in the loops are flowing in the same circular direction, and
the planes of the loops are parallel, etc., etc., then the fields
interact to produce a magnetic attraction between the loops. The loops
are simple magnets. The approach of the loops will generate an emf that
reduces the current within them, thus reducing their magnetic fields.
Conversely, as the loops are pulled apart the current will increase.
This also occurs to some extent when using hard magnets. The processes
can be adiabatic or isothermic.
Richard Perry
So does this provide a possible explanation for why such a device would
not violate the conservation of energy theory? If there is actually a
conversion of field intensity to magnetomotive force?
No, your device simply won't operate. The forces all cancel out.
Richard Perry
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| User: "Autymn D. C." |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
20 Sep 2006 02:07:38 PM |
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RP wrote:
Conservation of energy prohibits it. There is no way to explain the
fallacy of your experiment in terms that would make it any more clear
to you. But if this is what intrigues you, then don't stop trying to
beat conservation of energy, because in the attemp you might learn some
useful physics. You may even finally come to a point where you
understand why conservation of energy cannot be beaten.
I already beatd it years ago.
<http://google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Refutation+of+Thermodynamic+Laws%22>
I also beatd entropy and equilibrium.
<http://egroups.com/group/free_energy/msearch?query=%22my+revenge%22+OR+%22Room+Engines%22+OR+%22another+experiment%22&pos=60&cnt=-60>
-Aut
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| User: "G=EMC^2 Glazier" |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
20 Sep 2006 05:03:47 PM |
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arron It takes mechanical energy to create an electric current. No free
lunch having magnets that push and pull for perpetual motion. Bert
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| User: "Sorcerer" |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
20 Sep 2006 07:23:28 PM |
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"G=EMC^2 Glazier" <herbertglazier@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:22362-4511BAC3-184@storefull-3331.bay.webtv.net...
| arron It takes mechanical energy to create an electric current.
HAHAHAHA!
http://www.astrosurf.com/astrospace/images/ss/Satellite%2008.jpg
ROFL! Those solar sails are to mechanically fly the satellite, right?
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| User: "G=EMC^2 Glazier" |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
21 Sep 2006 09:50:24 AM |
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OK I admit chemicals,and photons can create electricity,but the post
was using a form of energy of motion. We create 99% of our electricity
by generators,and they are turned by steam water pressure,or wind.
Mechanical energy is #1by a long shot to create electricity.
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| User: "Sorcerer" |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
21 Sep 2006 10:46:27 AM |
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"G=EMC^2 Glazier" <herbertglazier@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:22363-4512A6B0-71@storefull-3331.bay.webtv.net...
| OK I admit chemicals,and photons can create electricity,but the post
| was using a form of energy of motion. We create 99% of our electricity
| by generators,and they are turned by steam water pressure,or wind.
| Mechanical energy is #1by a long shot to create electricity.
http://tinyurl.com/zh82a
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| User: "G=EMC^2 Glazier" |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
21 Sep 2006 01:49:07 PM |
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That picture Sorcerer you showed of a lightning bolt was static
electricity. Your to stupid to realizing your helping me.(oh ya) It
takes mechanical energy to create this electricity It takes
friction,and to go into your pea brain to understand that means
"rubbing". This will be over your brain but what rubbing does it
creates a charge,and therefore an electrical field. That lightning you
showed shows unlike charges drawn together, I would say to you think
first but knowing you have so little wit ,its a waste of time. Get lost.
Bert
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| User: "Sorcerer" |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
21 Sep 2006 02:50:25 PM |
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"G=EMC^2 Glazier" <herbertglazier@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8973-4512DEA3-359@storefull-3338.bay.webtv.net...
| That picture Sorcerer you showed of a lightning bolt was static
| electricity.
HAHAHA!
Son, that was definitely a movement of charge.
Engage brain before opening mouth.
I can see why hahahanson likes you... such easy prey.
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| User: "Azor" |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
20 Sep 2006 08:40:47 PM |
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Sorcerer wrote:
"G=EMC^2 Glazier" <herbertglazier@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:22362-4511BAC3-184@storefull-3331.bay.webtv.net...
| arron It takes mechanical energy to create an electric current.
HAHAHAHA!
http://www.astrosurf.com/astrospace/images/ss/Satellite%2008.jpg
ROFL! Those solar sails are to mechanically fly the satellite, right?
Solar cells -----> converting radiant energy into electrical energy.
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| User: "Sorcerer" |
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| Title: Re: Permanent Magnet Motor |
21 Sep 2006 07:25:58 AM |
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"Azor" <aaron.rogerson@nt.gov.au> wrote in message
news:1158802847.755703.224200@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
|
| Sorcerer wrote:
| > "G=EMC^2 Glazier" <herbertglazier@webtv.net> wrote in message
| > news:22362-4511BAC3-184@storefull-3331.bay.webtv.net...
| > | arron It takes mechanical energy to create an electric current.
| >
| >
| > HAHAHAHA!
| >
| > http://www.astrosurf.com/astrospace/images/ss/Satellite%2008.jpg
| >
| > ROFL! Those solar sails are to mechanically fly the satellite, right?
|
| Solar cells -----> converting radiant energy into electrical energy.
They are called sails when you have a lot a cells, the analogy
is obvious.
Herbie should engage brain before opening mouth.
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