| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Keith P Walsh" |
| Date: |
11 Sep 2005 03:52:23 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Faradaic Activity in Dental Amalgams |
On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 23:31:55 GMT, Sue <s.c.madden@comcast.net> wrote:
Keith P Walsh wrote:
I get the impression that you have conceded that the dental
profession doesn't know what the electromagnetic properties of a
typical dental amalgam are.
Am I correct?
REPLY. My guess is that the many of the dental profession do not see
the clnical relavence of this and therefore simply do not care.
How does that work? "We don't know anything about this so it can't
possibly be of any importance"? That isn't science. It's just sheer
blind arrogance.
Keith you are the one studying this issue. Maybe you can tell us?
You mentioned that amalgam has the [potenial of generating 350 mV.
Whoever measured this must have measured the other properties that
affect voltage like current, resistance, impedance..
No, I didn't say that amalgam "has the potential of generating 350mv."
I said that it has been demonstrated experimentally that amalgam
fillings generate electrical potentials with magnitudes of up to
350mV. My use of the word "potentials" here is synonymous with the
word "voltages". The measurement of electrical voltages of this order
of magnitude in amalgams is commonplace, and it places an obligation
on the part of those who continue to promote the use of amalgams in
restorative dentistry to take all reasonable steps to demonstrate that
these electrical voltages are not capable of dissipating electrical
energy through the nerves in people's heads.
You mentioned that the resting potential of neurological tissue is
70 mV. My comment is ...so what? Do you really think that a transient
maximum of 350 mV that may be generated by amalgam will interrupt or
activate cranial nerve activity?
The 350mV is not a "transient maximum". It represents the magnitude of
largest of the electrical potentials measured in the study which I
quoted, but there is no indication in the findings of this study that
the level of this potential is transient in nature. Moreover, an
alternative investigation into the nature of the electrical potentials
generated by amalgam fillings appears to have established that such
potentials are found to quickly return to their maximum "steady state"
values after being discharged. See:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2103035&dopt=Abstract
The resting potential of SA nodal tissue is -65 mV. The resting
potential of ventricular tissue is -85 mV. The activation threshold of
SA nodal tissue occurs at about -45 mV. Does this mean that 25 mV
applied to the chest will result in myocardial stimulation? No.
If you are suggesting that the established scientific knowledge of
neurological physiology in the region of the chest is sufficient to
determine whether or not the electrical potentials generated by metal
amalgam dental fillings are able to dissipate electrical energy
through the nerves in people's teeth then I would argue that you are
at best cutting corners, and at worst evading the issue.
And I would also argue that since amalgam fillings are placed in
childrens' teeth then there is little justification for it.
When we implant a pacemaker, we place a lead (conductive wire)
directly into the right ventricle. The other end of this lead is
connected to a power source. We determine the lowest (safest and most
reliable) voltage threshold necessary to effect myocardial stimulation
(i.e. pace) by creating a strength duration curve.
This is a graph relating pulse width (pulse duration) to voltage
necessary to effect capture (i.e. effect a pace).
The volatge threshold varies from person to person, but generally the
voltage threahold to effectively pace the heart is less than 1 volt,
preferrably less than 0.5 mV at a pulse width less than 2.0 ms.
However this is via a wire connected directly to the heart! In
addition the wire senses the sinus beat, so the pulse is timed to be
deleivered during the period when cell can actually accept a stimulus.
(There is period in which the cell is refractory to any stimulus).
So please tell me, how can an amalgam which resides within a tooth,
i.e. not in direct contact with nay caranial nerves.. adn which may
transiently conduct some mild electrical activity.... how is this going
to effect or affect nerve activity?
Well I would suggest that by using modern instrumentation it might be
possible to detect whether or not the electrical potentials generated
by dental amalgams are able to influence neurological activity in the
vicinity of teeth with amalgam fillings. (I prefer the scientific
approach rather than guesswork.)
And if such an investigation were to show that they are, it might then
be appropriate to speculate as to exactly how this happens.
IMHO, you must make a stronger case as to why the fardaic activity of
amalgam may be of any clinical relavence.
Best Regards,
Sue
I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to cross-post this message to the
other newsgroups so that the regular correspondents at sci.physics,
sci.materials and sci.physics.electromag get an idea of just how
easily people such as yourself who may be implicated in or supportive
of the use of amalgams in dentistry are able make up excuses for
failing to acknowledge their own ignorance.
Best regards to you,
Keith P Walsh
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| User: "Robert Morien" |
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| Title: Re: Faradaic Activity in Dental Amalgams |
13 Sep 2005 12:32:29 AM |
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In article <1126570761.114438.7630@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"billkatz" <billthekat@hotmail.com> wrote:
Too many millivolts to be safe ........
Butt out, Joel.
Still waiting for Robert to answer.
what is your position on tampons. I need to know before
I can answer anything.
Thanks for sharing that with everybody, Robert.
No problem. It needs to be investigated...you know women die from these
things.
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| User: "LadyLollipop" |
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| Title: Re: Faradaic Activity in Dental Amalgams |
13 Sep 2005 01:49:27 AM |
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"Robert Morien" <PhD_failure@nousefulinfo.com> wrote in message
news:PhD_failure-F47E25.22322912092005@news.isp.giganews.com...
In article <1126570761.114438.7630@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"billkatz" <billthekat@hotmail.com> wrote:
Too many millivolts to be safe ........
Butt out, Joel.
Still waiting for Robert to answer.
what is your position on tampons. I need to know before
I can answer anything.
Thanks for sharing that with everybody, Robert.
No problem. It needs to be investigated...you know women die from these
things.
Off topic in a dental newsgroup.
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| User: "Robert Morien" |
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| Title: Re: Faradaic Activity in Dental Amalgams |
13 Sep 2005 03:16:10 AM |
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In article <XDuVe.325999$x96.11861@attbi_s72>,
"LadyLollipop" <LadyLollipop@insightbb.com> wrote:
"Robert Morien" <PhD_failure@nousefulinfo.com> wrote in message
news:PhD_failure-F47E25.22322912092005@news.isp.giganews.com...
In article <1126570761.114438.7630@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"billkatz" <billthekat@hotmail.com> wrote:
Too many millivolts to be safe ........
Butt out, Joel.
Still waiting for Robert to answer.
what is your position on tampons. I need to know before
I can answer anything.
Thanks for sharing that with everybody, Robert.
No problem. It needs to be investigated...you know women die from these
things.
Off topic in a dental newsgroup.
So you don't care that women die from toxic shock syndrome? in fact more
women die each year from toxic shock syndrome than mercury poisoning.
That's right you haven't answered if you are a dentist.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Faradaic Activity in Dental Amalgams |
15 Sep 2005 09:02:17 PM |
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Is toxic shock caused by faradaic radio waves?
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| User: "Robert Morien" |
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| Title: Re: Faradaic Activity in Dental Amalgams |
15 Sep 2005 09:43:18 PM |
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In article <1126836137.732598.163470@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
wrote:
Is toxic shock caused by faradaic radio waves?
exacerbated
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Faradaic Activity in Dental Amalgams |
16 Sep 2005 07:39:22 PM |
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As she lay dying which radio station does she listen to?
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| User: "billkatz" |
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| Title: Re: Faradaic Activity in Dental Amalgams |
16 Sep 2005 07:56:24 PM |
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As she lay dying which radio station does she listen to?
Depends on how she holds her mouth...
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Faradaic Activity in Dental Amalgams |
17 Sep 2005 08:21:13 PM |
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Sue> As she lay dying which radio station does she listen to?
Bill>Depends on how she holds her mouth...
Sue>Oh oh... now it sounds like you are getting into something
rather...
Nevermind!
I believe this thread has deteriorated into nothigness. Maybe Keith
will come back when he has finished his study... his thesis ...or
whatever it is he is working on.
.
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| User: "billkatz" |
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| Title: Re: Faradaic Activity in Dental Amalgams |
18 Sep 2005 07:29:46 AM |
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I believe this thread has deteriorated into nothigness. Maybe Keith
will come back when he has finished his study... his thesis ...or
whatever it is he is working on.
Episode 46) Hi-Fi Gilligan - Gilligan's mouth becomes a radio after he
is accidentally hit on the head. When their regular radio is broken,
Gilligan becomes their sole source of information on the approaching
typhoon...
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| User: "LadyLollipop" |
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| Title: Re: Faradaic Activity in Dental Amalgams |
18 Sep 2005 02:31:25 PM |
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"billkatz" <billthekat@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127046586.465605.314050@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I believe this thread has deteriorated into nothigness. Maybe Keith
will come back when he has finished his study... his thesis ...or
whatever it is he is working on.
Foolishness snipped.
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~berniew1/galv.html
http://www.testfoundation.org/Gold-Amalgam.htm
GOLD-AMALGAM IN CONTACT
Citations from literature
Edited and translated by
Mats Hanson
# ... it is evident that metallic contacts between gold fillings and silver
amalgam fillings must be considered malpractice since under such conditions
a
direct local element is formed with corresponding voltages and corrosive
conditions (Reply from Bundesgesundheitsamt 14.02.1980 to an inquiry from
the
consumer organization Arbeitsgemeinschaft der Verbraucher, Bonn)
#This amalgam is destructive to gold fillings and plate. The strong affinity
of
gold for mercury, renders this amalgam destructive to gold fillings or
plate. I
have seen in several instances the teeth which were clasped to secure the
plate, filled with mercurial paste, and in each instance the clasp was
literally eaten off at this point. To demonstrate this effect, we need only
rub
a piece of gold with the amalgam, when the surface will immediately become
white to the extent that the amalgam of gold is formed. This amalgam like
that
of silver is oxydable and easily removed; gold plugs and plate are not only
subject to this destructive process, from actual contact of the amalgam in
its
primitive form, but several salts formed from the oxydation of these cement
fillings, and which are held in solution by the saliva, are also destructive
to
gold. Westcott: Report on Mineral Paste, The American Journal of Dental
Science
vol IV, 1844, 175-193
#Occasionally, a gold inlay is placed in contact with an adjacent proximal
amalgam restoration, or an amalgam filling is placed in an opposing tooth,
or
perhaps a gold clasp touches an amalgam restoration. All such procedures are
almost sure to cause a corrosion of of the amalgam, since an electrocouple
with
considerable elevtromotive force is produced between the gold alloy and the
amalgam (approximately 500 millivolts). Mercury is sometimes found in the
gold
alloy, which is thereby weakened. Such a condition is always a hazard to the
health of the patient. When couples of this nature are studied under
laboratory
conditions, the amalgam corrodes, regardless of a polished surface or a
protective tarnish film. (The Science of Dental Materials, E.W. Skinner, 3:e
ed. 1948, W.B. Saunders Co, Phil. & Lond.) (Changed in the next edition to:
such conditions should be avoided)
#...older man, who besides many amalgam fillings, had a gold crown in his
mouth, something dentistry considers not allowable because of the possible
galvanic processes, but dentists often ignore in practice. 11,2 µg Hg in 780
cm3 urine (14,4 µg/l). He had had stomatitis for several years and also
other
symptoms indicating mercury poisoning. (Stock A & Cucuel F der
Quecksilberhalt
der menschlichen Ausscheidungen und des menschlichen Blutes. Zeitschr angew.
Chemie 47, 1934, 641-7)
#Amalgam and gold close together is, because of the then occurring
electrolytic
degradation process in the mouth, especially dangerous and should be
avoided.
(Stock A. Die Gefährlichkeit des Quecksilberdampfes und der Amalgame,
Zeitschr
angew. Chemie 39, 1926, 984-989)
#One should especially avoid placing amalgam plombs in the vicinity of
metals
(genuine gold fillings, gold bridges and bridges and plates of false gold).
In
such cases electrolytic currents will occur, which also degrade the deeper
parts of the amalgam fillings and can cause the evaporation of larger
amounts
of mercury. (F. Gradewitz, (dentist) Zeitschr angew. Chemie 39, 1926 788-9)
#The erratic variation of current that we found when we plotted the Evans
diagrams of gold alloy coupled with an amalgam alloy also can be explained
as a
succession of deterioration and reconstruction of the corrosion film. Our
conclusion is that a clinical amalgam restoration in contact with a gold
crown,
could corrode continously at a high rate. (Study of the electrochemical
behavior of gold dental alloys. Brugirard J, Bargain R, Dupuy JC, Mazille H
&
Monnier G Study of the electrochemical behavior of gold dental alloys J.
Dent.
Res 52, 1973, 828-836)
#Cracks in gold crowns cemented on amalgam.... explanation can be mercury
diffusing into the grain boundaries in regions where there was contact
between
amalgam and gold. In this study corrosion products derived from amalgam were
identified in the main cracks.... The small area of amalgam exposed to the
oral
cavity through the cracks will give a small anode and a big cathode, and
this
will cause accelerated corrosion of the amalgam. The corrosion causes the
release of metallic ions, which can cause problems for some individuals. In
this case the gold crowns were obtained from patients with symptoms such as
a
metallic taste from the teeth before extraction. It is not known how common
cracks in gold crowns are, but we believe that many cracks have not been
detected simply because no one has looked for them. (Ode'n A & Tullberg M,
Cracks in gold crowns cemented on amalgam restorations Acta Odont Scand 43
1985
15-17)
#Gold and amalgam placed in contact in the oral cavity will cause galvanic
currents and increased corrosion of the amalgam, with release of metal ions.
The corrosion of the amalgam may reduce its strength and cause increased
marginal breakdown of the filling. The electric currents and possibly also
the
release of metal ions may cause oral discomfort in certain individuals....
In
clinical use, an amalgam restoration may come into contact with a crown or a
bridge several times larger, which must be regarded as particularly
unfavorable. (Holland, R.I. Galvanic currents between gold and amalgam
Scand.
J. Dent. Res. 88, 1989 269-272).
# Contact between two different alloys thus enhance corrosion. Under such
circumstances a galvanic element in the mouth is formed where the two metals
constitute the poles and the saliva the electrolyte. Galvanism,
electrocorrosion are different names for the same phenomenon. A gold
restoration, repaired with amalgam, causes considerable corrosion,
especially
of the amalgam and produces noticable changes in the amalgam and also in the
gold. An amalgam post under a gold crown also leads to corrosion. Thus,
amalgam
should not be used to fill cavities in the presence of gold at the cavity
margin or occlusally afte endodontic treatment through a gold crown. If it
should be necessary to use amalgam for this purpose because of difficulties
to
introduce some othe material, (e.g. composites), it should be
non-gamma2-amalgam, since this corrodes slightly less than other amalgams.
If
there is a contact between two different amalgam types, a non-gamm2 and one
of
another type, the older type corrodes extensively. I a gold crown is
prepared
on an amalgam core, changes on the inner surface can be recognized with the
naked eyes. Mixing different types of metals in the same oral cavity should,
if
possible, be avoided. (Söremark, R. Biological aspects of dental materials,
Compendium, inst. Prostetics, Dept of Dent, Karolinska Inst. Sth).
# In the laboratory and clinically we study the proneness to corrode when
commonly used dental alloys are combined. The results show very large
differences in corrosion rate between different combinations. The conclusion
is
that certain dental alloys should not be combined in the same mouth
(Söremark,
R. Oral Galvanism - vad är det?, KI-Journalen (Karolinska Inst.) no.1 1982
17-17)
# Two or more metals, in the same environment, may cause electrochemical
processes such as galvanic cell corrosion and currents. Several
investigations
have shown that the use of different metals as restorative materials in the
same mouth can cause not only symptoms of 'galvanic pain' and patological
lesions on the soft tissue, but also deterioration of the used materials and
distribution of corrosion products into the tissues.
Cast gold alloy and amalgam are often used for dental restorations in the
same
mouth. Galvanic corrosion resulting from contact between amalgam and gold
has
been studied by several workers. Schoonover & Souder reported that gold
tarnished and amalgam corroded, when they were placed in contact and kept in
a
sodium cloride solution for six months.
..In spite of these established facts and the oral symptoms caused by
electrochemical effects, it is still common practise to mix different alloys
as
restorative materials in the same mouth and even in the same tooth.
(Arvidson
K., In vitro corrosion studies of a dental gold alloy in contact with
cohesive
gold and amalgam Swed. Dent J. 68 1975 41-45).
# Mixing different restorative alloys may give rise to electrochemical
processes, such as currents and galvanic corrosion, causing more or less
pronounced destruction of the alloys, and pathologic changes in the
surrounding
soft tissues. As a consequence, restorations of gold and amalgam, in contact
with each other, have been contraindicated. (Arvidson, K. Corrosion studies
of
a dental gold alloy in contact with amalgam under different conditions Swed
Dent J 68 1975 135-139).
#Although dissimilar metals not in contact have received most attention, it
is
not uncommon to find two or more dissimilar metals so placed in the oral
cavity
as to be in direct contact with or in close proximity to each other. Such a
practice will most certainly be conductive to galvanic action, as will be
demonstrated by experiments to be described later in this paper. ...
polished
amalgam disks and plates of a dental gold alloy...If, however, the above
mentioned metals are placed in contact with or in close proximity to each
other, for example separated by a liquid film, corrosion of one or both of
the
metals does occur. In dental practice, examples which fulfil the
requirements
for this typ of galvanic action are 1. two metals connected by bridgework; 2
two metals in corresponding upper and lower teeth, and 3; two metals next to
each other in adjacent teeth.... A polished amalgam disk and a plate of
dental
gold were so arranged in a 1 percent solution of sodium chloride that
contact
between them could be periodically interrupted each minute. Corrosion of the
amalgam began immediately...amalgam and gold in contact...Corrosion began
immediately on the surface the amagam. A white flocculent precipitate was
formed. After approximately six months, the amalgams and gold were removed
from
the solution and examined. The amalgams were badly corroded and contained
many
pits, which were distributed at random over the surface. In some, cases,
pits
were found on the side of the amalgam not in contact with the gold alloy.
Corrosion was most severe on the amalgam at the points where the edges of
the
gold came in contact with the amalgam.
#Dissimilar metals i contact constitute a hazard and should be examined for
evidence of corrosion... The possibility that the patient may be allergic to
metal ions formed from corrosion cells should be considered whenever
disturbances are thought to arise from the presence of dissimilar metals or
from a corroding amalgam. ...in some cases, corrosion was so severe that the
amalgam had apparently lost much of its strength and could be crumbled
between
the fingers. (Schoonover IC & Souder W, National Bureau of Standards, USA,
Corrosion of dental alloys J. Amer Dent ***** 28 1941 1278-1291).
# The third effect that has been reported was the corrosion of restorations
due
to galvanic current. The potential difference between gold and amalgam in
saliva has been reported to be as great as 0.5 volts and some corrosion of
amalgam is considered possible. Schoonover and Souder have reported that
gold
restorations were corroded by mercury released from amalgam fillings because
of
an electrochemical reaction. Since then most dental textbooks have
recommended
against the use of gold in contact with amalgam in the mouth. It is a fact,
however, that many dental clinicians are routinely using them in contact
with
each other. Thus, there seems to be some discordance between past basic
experiments and clinical practice. (Fusayama T et al Corrosion of gold and
amalgam placed in contact with each other, J. Dent. Res 42 1963 1183-1197).
#Finally we strongly recommend the absolute avoidance of contact between
metals
with large potential differences like gold alloys and silver amalgam.
(Laetzsch
E Ist es bei zahnärztlich-prothetischen Behandlungen erforderlich, einen
einheitligen metallischen Werkstoff anzuwenden? Dtsch Stomatol 22 1972
183-188)
# The placement of an amalgam restoration adjacent to a gold inlay seems to
be
contraindicated. Phillips Elements of Dental Materials WB Saunders Co 1977
# If two fillings, wet with saliva, are connected through an ordinary
microammeter or galvanometer... Early workers reported such currents to be
as
much as 50 microamperes, and even much more in some cases. These facts
indicate
that contacts between metallic fillings in place in teeth, must be avoided.
If
necessary a plastic plug may be inserted in one of them at the point of
contact.....The many case histories that have been reported in the
literature
lead one to conclude that serious pathologic conditions in the oral cavity
have
been caused by metallic dental fillings. There appears to be no evidence
that
such conditions are caused directly by the electric current. However, if the
subject happens to exhibit hypersensitivity to certain metallic ions
supplied
by the dental fillings, then, since the electric current hastyens the
solution
of the fillings and assists in transporting the ions to and through the
tissues, it may exert an indirect detrimental effect on the subject.
Schriever
W & Diamond LE J. Dent Res 31, 1952, 205-229
# The presence of silver-tin-amalgam in the immediate neighborhood of gold
will
enhance the corrosion of the amalgam. Harndt E Dtsch Zahärztl Wschr 33 1930
564
#On examination of mouths, it was found, for example, that if the patient
has
gold and amalgam in his mouth, the amalgam acts as the positive pole, giving
out calcium (from the tooth; transl. comment.) and producing decay.
Gradually,
the amalgam itself is destroyed....When two contigous teeth, or two
corresponding upper and lower ones, contain different metals, they are
liable
to destruction. Wakai E JADA 23 1936 1000-6
# When amalgam is brought into contact with a plate of dental gold alloy in
a 1
% sodium chloride solution at 37 degrees a very severe corrosion occurs
which
after a few days results in formation of substantial amounts of corrosion
products.....in addition to the loose, powderlike corrosion products, minute
drops of mercury. Jörgensen, K.D. Acta Odont Scand 23 1965 347-8
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dockets/00n_1665/00N-1665-EC-07.html
For those who wish to believe this thread has deteriorated into nothigness.
They are quite wrong and only wish to deny the *truth* and of course wish to
belittle Keith.
How very typical of *organized dentistry*
.
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| User: "MA Sonjariv" |
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| Title: Re: Faradaic Activity in Dental Amalgams |
17 Sep 2005 11:44:15 PM |
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On 17 Sep 2005 18:21:13 -0700, wrote:
Sue> As she lay dying which radio station does she listen to?
Bill>Depends on how she holds her mouth...
Sue>Oh oh... now it sounds like you are getting into something
rather...
Nevermind!
I believe this thread has deteriorated into nothigness. Maybe Keith
will come back when he has finished his study... his thesis ...or
whatever it is he is working on.
I guess you have not followed this group the past 3 or so years.
Keith P. Walsh, the gentleman troll, comes here every now and then and
entertains us all. If you do look at the 120 or so posts in this
thread, you will note flurries of replies to the very few posts KPW
has made. It is most assuredly not a study nor thesis but a series of
provocative posts on the equally provocative topic that mercury in
dental amalgam is not inert.
No harm done here unlike the vile posts of some who troll.
MA Sonjariv
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| User: "Keith P Walsh" |
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| Title: Re: Faradaic Activity in Dental Amalgams |
18 Sep 2005 05:52:07 AM |
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billkatz wrote:
As she lay dying which radio station does she listen to?
Depends on how she holds her mouth...
In his paper concerning the interaction of radio-frequency energy with
biological systems, John Michael Williams offers the following insight:
"Suppose, for example, that the target structure were a set of metal
fillings in the teeth and the EMR were in the broadcast TV or GHz
range. Clearly, a fraction of the current induced in the fillings by
EMR beamed at the body would be independent of the height of the
person.
Now, true, the body can act as an "antenna", but any small component of
the EMR "high-passed" by the body merely would be superposed on the EMR
directly interacting with the fillings. The EMR directly acting would
depend on shielding, reflection, and refraction by the teeth and lips,
not by any generality representable by "Inside of Body". It would be
incorrect in this example to describe the body (actually, the mouth) as
a high-pass filter: In fact, if anything, the circumference of the open
mouth would define a bandpass for EMR capable of exciting the
fillings."
See "Comments on Thermal and Nonthermal Mechanisms", by John Michael
Williams at:
http://www.aetherwire.com/UWBWG_Archive/attach/Comments_on_Thermal_and_Nonthermal_Mechanisms.PDF
He appears to have assumed that the electromagnetic energy he's talking
about is capable of inducing an electrical current in metal dental
fillings, and that the position of the mouth may even assist this
energy in "exciting the fillings".
I suppose that if any of you dentists wanted to convince him that he is
wrong about this you'd have to come up with some scientific evidence of
your own to prove it.
But where would you get that from?
Over to you fellas.
Keith P Walsh
PS, some enquiries regarding the electrical properties of dental
amalgams can be found at:
http://book.boot.users.btopenworld.com/intro.htm
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| User: "Keith P Walsh" |
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| Title: EMR Induces Electrical Current in Amalgam Fillings |
01 Oct 2005 04:21:20 AM |
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In his paper concerning the interaction of radio-frequency energy with
biological systems, John Michael Williams offers the following insight:
"Suppose, for example, that the target structure were a set of metal
fillings in the teeth and the EMR were in the broadcast TV or GHz
range. Clearly, a fraction of the current induced in the fillings by
EMR beamed at the body would be independent of the height of the
person.
See "Comments on Thermal and Nonthermal Mechanisms", by John Michael
Williams at:
http://www.aetherwire.com/UWBWG_Archive/attach/Comments_on_Thermal_an...
Mr Williams appears to have assumed that electromagnetic energy is
capable of inducing an electrical current in metal dental fillings.
Does anyone know of any scientific evidence which either confirms or
contradicts this assumption?
Keith P Walsh
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| User: "Robert Morien" |
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| Title: Re: EMR Induces Electrical Current in Amalgam Fillings |
01 Oct 2005 02:39:34 PM |
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In article <1128158480.873107.284470@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"Keith P Walsh" <keith.p.walsh@btinternet.com> wrote:
In his paper concerning the interaction of radio-frequency energy with
biological systems, John Michael Williams offers the following insight:
"Suppose, for example, that the target structure were a set of metal
fillings in the teeth and the EMR were in the broadcast TV or GHz
range. Clearly, a fraction of the current induced in the fillings by
EMR beamed at the body would be independent of the height of the
person.
See "Comments on Thermal and Nonthermal Mechanisms", by John Michael
Williams at:
http://www.aetherwire.com/UWBWG_Archive/attach/Comments_on_Thermal_an...
Mr Williams appears to have assumed that electromagnetic energy is
capable of inducing an electrical current in metal dental fillings.
Does anyone know of any scientific evidence which either confirms or
contradicts this assumption?
Yes I have all the numbers you could want, all you have to do is provide
a method to re-imburse me for going to the physics department of my
local college/university and asking them.
The price keeps going up.
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| User: "Al" |
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| Title: Re: EMR Induces Electrical Current in Amalgam Fillings |
01 Oct 2005 08:53:16 AM |
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In article <1128158480.873107.284470@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"Keith P Walsh" <keith.p.walsh@btinternet.com> wrote:
In his paper concerning the interaction of radio-frequency energy with
biological systems, John Michael Williams offers the following insight:
"Suppose, for example, that the target structure were a set of metal
fillings in the teeth and the EMR were in the broadcast TV or GHz
range. Clearly, a fraction of the current induced in the fillings by
EMR beamed at the body would be independent of the height of the
person.
See "Comments on Thermal and Nonthermal Mechanisms", by John Michael
Williams at:
http://www.aetherwire.com/UWBWG_Archive/attach/Comments_on_Thermal_an...
Mr Williams appears to have assumed that electromagnetic energy is
capable of inducing an electrical current in metal dental fillings.
Does anyone know of any scientific evidence which either confirms or
contradicts this assumption?
Keith P Walsh
I had an MRI of my head. I noticed no effects in my teeth with the
fillings nor any other ones including my gold cap.
Al
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| User: "Dave" |
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| Title: Re: EMR Induces Electrical Current in Amalgam Fillings |
01 Oct 2005 10:11:46 AM |
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"Al" <no.spam@wanted.com> wrote in message
news:no.spam-08FBEA.09531701102005@news.verizon.net...
In article <1128158480.873107.284470@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"Keith P Walsh" <keith.p.walsh@btinternet.com> wrote:
In his paper concerning the interaction of radio-frequency energy with
biological systems, John Michael Williams offers the following insight:
"Suppose, for example, that the target structure were a set of metal
fillings in the teeth and the EMR were in the broadcast TV or GHz
range. Clearly, a fraction of the current induced in the fillings by
EMR beamed at the body would be independent of the height of the
person.
See "Comments on Thermal and Nonthermal Mechanisms", by John Michael
Williams at:
http://www.aetherwire.com/UWBWG_Archive/attach/Comments_on_Thermal_an...
Mr Williams appears to have assumed that electromagnetic energy is
capable of inducing an electrical current in metal dental fillings.
Does anyone know of any scientific evidence which either confirms or
contradicts this assumption?
Keith P Walsh
I had an MRI of my head. I noticed no effects in my teeth with the
fillings nor any other ones including my gold cap.
one anecdotal comment does not offset 100 years of experiments and
scientific observation. YES, there will be currents in the metal fillings
when exposed to an electromagnetic wave.
.
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| User: "Keith P Walsh" |
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| Title: Re: EMR Induces Electrical Current in Amalgam Fillings |
09 Oct 2005 11:30:56 AM |
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Al wrote:
I had an MRI of my head. I noticed no effects in my teeth with the
fillings nor any other ones including my gold cap.
The excitation of atomic nuclei in MRI procedures is achieved by
matching the frequency of the incident electromagnetic radiation with
the corresponding "resonant" frequency of the target nuclei for the
chosen electromagnetic field strength.
The variation of resonant frequencies for varying field strengths is
different for the nuclei of different elements. In fact each element
(more accurately each isotope of each element) has its own
characteristic profile of "resonant" frequencies (called Larmor
frequencies after the British scientist Sir Joseph Larmor, 1857-1942).
A table of MRI (NMR) frequencies at different field strengths for
different elements can be found on the website of the Massachusetts
Institute of Technology at:
http://web.mit.edu/speclab/www/nmrfreq.html
You can see that the field strengths for this table have actually been
chosen to match with convenient values of Larmor frequencies for
hydrogen - H(1).
So, for argument's sake, if an MRI scan was set up with a field
strength of 5.8717 Tesla and a frequency of incident radiation of 250
MHz, then you would expect the hydrogen nuclei in the region of the
body under examination to "resonate" accordingly.
However, you would not expect the nuclei of the mercury, silver or tin
atoms in your amalgam fillings to resonate significantly at all.
Many people mistakenly presume that the reason for this must be that
the field strength is not great enough.
But this is not the case.
The true explanation is that the combination of the frequency and the
field strength (both of which can be very precisely controlled) does
not correspond to the conditions required for producing resonance in
any of the atomic nuclei in the material which constitutes the
fillings.
In our example (a field strength of 5.8717 Tesla), the Larmour
frequencies of Ag(107), Ag(109), Sn(115), Sn(117), Sn(119), Hg(119) and
Hg(201) are 10.116, 11.630, 81.749, 89.063, 93.181, 44.568, and 16.499
MHz respectively, and not 250MHz.
The Larmor frequencies for these nuclei will always be different from
that of hydrogen, whatever the strength of the field. And it is
therefore possible to ensure that only hydrogen nuclei are excited in
an MRI procedure simply by determining that the incident radiation
matches the Larmor frequency for H(1) at the chosen field strength.
However, I think that to suggest that this may be taken as a general
indication that electromagnetic energy is not capable of inducing
electrical currents in metal amalgam dental fillings would be silly.
Do you not agree?
Keith P Walsh
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| User: "Dave" |
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| Title: Re: EMR Induces Electrical Current in Amalgam Fillings |
09 Oct 2005 12:22:30 PM |
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"Keith P Walsh" <keith.p.walsh@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1128875456.453179.216500@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Al wrote:
I had an MRI of my head. I noticed no effects in my teeth with the
fillings nor any other ones including my gold cap.
The excitation of atomic nuclei in MRI procedures is achieved by
matching the frequency of the incident electromagnetic radiation with
the corresponding "resonant" frequency of the target nuclei for the
chosen electromagnetic field strength.
The variation of resonant frequencies for varying field strengths is
different for the nuclei of different elements. In fact each element
(more accurately each isotope of each element) has its own
characteristic profile of "resonant" frequencies (called Larmor
frequencies after the British scientist Sir Joseph Larmor, 1857-1942).
A table of MRI (NMR) frequencies at different field strengths for
different elements can be found on the website of the Massachusetts
Institute of Technology at:
http://web.mit.edu/speclab/www/nmrfreq.html
You can see that the field strengths for this table have actually been
chosen to match with convenient values of Larmor frequencies for
hydrogen - H(1).
So, for argument's sake, if an MRI scan was set up with a field
strength of 5.8717 Tesla and a frequency of incident radiation of 250
MHz, then you would expect the hydrogen nuclei in the region of the
body under examination to "resonate" accordingly.
However, you would not expect the nuclei of the mercury, silver or tin
atoms in your amalgam fillings to resonate significantly at all.
Many people mistakenly presume that the reason for this must be that
the field strength is not great enough.
But this is not the case.
The true explanation is that the combination of the frequency and the
field strength (both of which can be very precisely controlled) does
not correspond to the conditions required for producing resonance in
any of the atomic nuclei in the material which constitutes the
fillings.
In our example (a field strength of 5.8717 Tesla), the Larmour
frequencies of Ag(107), Ag(109), Sn(115), Sn(117), Sn(119), Hg(119) and
Hg(201) are 10.116, 11.630, 81.749, 89.063, 93.181, 44.568, and 16.499
MHz respectively, and not 250MHz.
The Larmor frequencies for these nuclei will always be different from
that of hydrogen, whatever the strength of the field. And it is
therefore possible to ensure that only hydrogen nuclei are excited in
an MRI procedure simply by determining that the incident radiation
matches the Larmor frequency for H(1) at the chosen field strength.
However, I think that to suggest that this may be taken as a general
indication that electromagnetic energy is not capable of inducing
electrical currents in metal amalgam dental fillings would be silly.
Do you not agree?
Keith P Walsh
of course not. you have again grasped at straws and missed. the 250mhz
will induce currents in any conductor within range. and since fillings are
conductors they will have currents induced in them and these will of course
produce potential differences.
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| User: "Clinton" |
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| Title: Re: EMR Induces Electrical Current in Amalgam Fillings |
09 Oct 2005 03:18:40 PM |
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Dave wrote:
However, I think that to suggest that this may be taken as a general
indication that electromagnetic energy is not capable of inducing
electrical currents in metal amalgam dental fillings would be silly.
Do you not agree?
Keith P Walsh
of course not. you have again grasped at straws and missed. the 250mhz
will induce currents in any conductor within range. and since
Keith, aren't you saying that the MRI process itself cannot be
taken as a negative on other types of EM radiation? It seems Dave
has suddenly focused in on the EM radiaiton in an MRI which is
probably a very small amount of energy. The point is what
the Magnetic field does during an MRI, not the tiny dose of RF
radiation they give you. Let's also not forget that this (magnetic)
field probably isn't switching at a very high rate at all, even if it
is large, (because, remember a constantly CHANGING field is need to
induce voltage,).
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| User: "billkatz" |
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| Title: Re: EMR Induces Electrical Current in Amalgam Fillings |
09 Oct 2005 07:20:42 PM |
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Keith, aren't you saying that the MRI process itself cannot be
taken as a negative on other types of EM radiation? It seems Dave
has suddenly focused in on the EM radiaiton in an MRI which is
probably a very small amount of energy. The point is what
the Magnetic field does during an MRI, not the tiny dose of RF
radiation they give you. Let's also not forget that this (magnetic)
field probably isn't switching at a very high rate at all, even if it
is large, (because, remember a constantly CHANGING field is need to
induce voltage,).
Good grief... An MRI will suck up a floor buffer; forget about it
rattling your fillings. Patients are constantly exposed to huge amounts
of EMR during an MRI. -- See:
http://www.simplyphysics.com/flying_objects.html# for some piccies :^)
An MRI will generate 25,000 times the earth's magnetic field, and aside
for avoidable mishaps, patients always survive. The human body is VERY
resilient.
.
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| User: "Clinton" |
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| Title: Re: EMR Induces Electrical Current in Amalgam Fillings |
09 Oct 2005 10:09:13 PM |
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billkatz wrote:
Good grief... An MRI will suck up a floor buffer; forget about it
rattling your fillings.
Sigh...Bill your understanding of physics seems to be a little, well
off. A magnet will fly into a refrigerator, that doesn't mean that
the magnet is generating any substantial emf in the refrigerator or
itself. of course if you spun the magnet around real fast so it
generated a changing magnetic field...
Magnets create attraction with magnetic materials because the little
tiny weeny magnetic domains align to become one great big, huge
magnetic domain when exposed to a magnetc field, no changing flux
requred!
Patients are constantly exposed to huge amounts
of EMR during an MRI. -- See:
http://www.simplyphysics.com/flying_objects.html# for some piccies :^)
That is apparently caused by the magnetic field, not electromagnetic
radiation. If so you cold point an attenna at a
nail and watch it fly across the room. Do you see cars lifting up into
the air when they drive by a radiostation anntena, or a microwave dish.
That's EMR! My understanding
is that MRI's do not use substantial electromagnetic radiation but
only a little in the RF range. If they do, a lot of people would
like to know because on of the big selling points of MRI's is
that they are safer than x-rays because of the small-low energy
EMR exposure.
An MRI will generate 25,000 times the earth's magnetic field, and aside
for avoidable mishaps, patients always survive. The human body is VERY
resilient.
It's the change in the flux that matters, not the total strength
of the field, for the purpose of induced voltage. You would think that
for a while, while it powers up some voltage would be generated, but I
don't even know how long it takes the machine to reach full strength. I
could sit in a magnetic field 1,000,000 times the earth strength and
still not generate a voltage in a wire
A magnetic field attracts objects because they have miniature currents
loops inside them, aligned with exposure to the magnetic field and
force equals B(H)x(current). this is not the same mechanism by which a
magneic field induces a voltage. A changing
magnetic field will induce an electric field in AIR, but it won't
exert a force on the air molecules, otherwise we would have tornado's
near power generators!
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| User: "billkatz" |
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| Title: Re: EMR Induces Electrical Current in Amalgam Fillings |
10 Oct 2005 09:23:44 PM |
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Sigh...Bill your understanding of physics seems to be a little, well
off.
I've read what you have to say. Keep rationalizing. You'll finish
digging your own grave, soon enough.
Bye!
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: EMR Induces Electrical Current in Amalgam Fillings |
10 Oct 2005 09:52:17 PM |
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billkatz wrote:
Sigh...Bill your understanding of physics seems to be a little, well
off.
I've read what you have to say. Keep rationalizing. You'll finish
digging your own grave, soon enough.
I don't like threating language like that. By the way telling someone
to dig their own grave can be construed as a direct threat according to
google laws, say "bye bye" to your account.
Bye!
.
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| User: "Robert Morien" |
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| Title: Re: EMR Induces Electrical Current in Amalgam Fillings |
10 Oct 2005 11:10:02 PM |
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In article <1128999137.190566.171540@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
wrote:
billkatz wrote:
Sigh...Bill your understanding of physics seems to be a little, well
off.
I've read what you have to say. Keep rationalizing. You'll finish
digging your own grave, soon enough.
I don't like threating language like that. By the way telling someone
to dig their own grave can be construed as a direct threat according to
google laws, say "bye bye" to your account.
Bye!
google laws? LOL
google has become the largest haven for spammers, what makes you think
they care about newsgroup postings
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| User: "Clinton" |
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| Title: Re: EMR Induces Electrical Current in Amalgam Fillings |
11 Oct 2005 02:33:28 AM |
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Okay, lets simplify a bit. TAke two magnets near each other
and hold them in place with say a wooden clamp. Now you would
agree that the voltage one induces in the other is zero?
In fact it's obvious that since everything is static no energy
is being put into the system so it would be hard to see how a
voltage could be induced, if say one of the magnets was connected
in a loop with a wire and was doing work!
Now imagine the clamps were suddenly removed from the magnets.
Note that no voltage is induced, the instantaneous velocity
is zero, no change in flux going through the magnet etc, yet
there WILL be a strong force on the magnet. The generation of
force on the magnet is not the same thing as the induction of
voltage and current. Thus the fact that an MRI can exert a large force
on an object does not imply that it induces a large voltage,
although, when the object moves and depending on changes in the
field strength some production of voltage is likely to occur.
(I have no idea how much becaue I don't know that field strengths
and changes of the magnetic field in an MRI)
This concludes kindergarten physics 101.
.
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| User: "Keith P Walsh" |
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| Title: Re: EMR Induces Electrical Current in Amalgam Fillings |
12 Oct 2005 12:26:25 AM |
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On 9 Oct 2005 13:18:40 -0700, "Clinton" <clintonz@prodigy.net> wrote:
Dave wrote:
However, I think that to suggest that this may be taken as a general
indication that electromagnetic energy is not capable of inducing
electrical currents in metal amalgam dental fillings would be silly.
Do you not agree?
Keith P Walsh
of course not. you have again grasped at straws and missed. the 250mhz
will induce currents in any conductor within range. and since
Keith, aren't you saying that the MRI process itself cannot be
taken as a negative on other types of EM radiation? It seems Dave
has suddenly focused in on the EM radiaiton in an MRI which is
probably a very small amount of energy. The point is what
the Magnetic field does during an MRI, not the tiny dose of RF
radiation they give you. Let's also not forget that this (magnetic)
field probably isn't switching at a very high rate at all, even if it
is large, (because, remember a constantly CHANGING field is need to
induce voltage,).
Do you think that it would be possible to engineer a constantly
changing electromagnetic field which induces an electrical potential
in a metal amalgam dental filling?
And, if so, how might you determine what the characteristics of the
field should be for producing, say, the maximum effect?
Keith P Walsh
PS, further enquiries regarding the electrical properties of dental
amalgams can be found at:
http://book.boot.users.btopenworld.com/intro.htm
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| User: "Dave" |
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| Title: Re: EMR Induces Electrical Current in Amalgam Fillings |
12 Oct 2005 07:23:00 AM |
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"Keith P Walsh" <keith.p.walsh@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:f77pk1ljo3hutchiaho4osdb733hnbfs14@4ax.com...
On 9 Oct 2005 13:18:40 -0700, "Clinton" <clintonz@prodigy.net> wrote:
Dave wrote:
However, I think that to suggest that this may be taken as a general
indication that electromagnetic energy is not capable of inducing
electrical currents in metal amalgam dental fillings would be silly.
Do you not agree?
Keith P Walsh
of course not. you have again grasped at straws and missed. the 250mhz
will induce currents in any conductor within range. and since
Keith, aren't you saying that the MRI process itself cannot be
taken as a negative on other types of EM radiation? It seems Dave
has suddenly focused in on the EM radiaiton in an MRI which is
probably a very small amount of energy. The point is what
the Magnetic field does during an MRI, not the tiny dose of RF
radiation they give you. Let's also not forget that this (magnetic)
field probably isn't switching at a very high rate at all, even if it
is large, (because, remember a constantly CHANGING field is need to
induce voltage,).
Do you think that it would be possible to engineer a constantly
changing electromagnetic field which induces an electrical potential
in a metal amalgam dental filling?
And, if so, how might you determine what the characteristics of the
field should be for producing, say, the maximum effect?
any changing em field will induce currents and potentials in fillings. for
maximum effect just look at maxwell's equations and all will become clear.
.
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| User: "Clinton" |
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| Title: Re: EMR Induces Electrical Current in Amalgam Fillings |
12 Oct 2005 10:08:39 AM |
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Dave wrote:
maximum effect just look at maxwell's equations and all will become clear.
By the way, the US congress and indeed legislatures around
the world are constantly changing their laws and statutes.
But which laws have never changed in the the last 100 years?
Answer: Maxwells laws! (gravity was modified after 1905)
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| User: "Robert Morien" |
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| Title: Re: EMR Induces Electrical Current in Amalgam Fillings |
12 Oct 2005 06:16:05 PM |
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In article <ZPidnV1hVsi0ndDeRVn-vg@crocker.com>,
"Dave" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
"Keith P Walsh" <keith.p.walsh@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:f77pk1ljo3hutchiaho4osdb733hnbfs14@4ax.com...
On 9 Oct 2005 13:18:40 -0700, "Clinton" <clintonz@prodigy.net> wrote:
Dave wrote:
However, I think that to suggest that this may be taken as a general
indication that electromagnetic energy is not capable of inducing
electrical currents in metal amalgam dental fillings would be silly.
Do you not agree?
Keith P Walsh
of course not. you have again grasped at straws and missed. the 250mhz
will induce currents in any conductor within range. and since
Keith, aren't you saying that the MRI process itself cannot be
taken as a negative on other types of EM radiation? It seems Dave
has suddenly focused in on the EM radiaiton in an MRI which is
probably a very small amount of energy. The point is what
the Magnetic field does during an MRI, not the tiny dose of RF
radiation they give you. Let's also not forget that this (magnetic)
field probably isn't switching at a very high rate at all, even if it
is large, (because, remember a constantly CHANGING field is need to
induce voltage,).
Do you think that it would be possible to engineer a constantly
changing electromagnetic field which induces an electrical potential
in a metal amalgam dental filling?
And, if so, how might you determine what the characteristics of the
field should be for producing, say, the maximum effect?
any changing em field will induce currents and potentials in fillings. for
maximum effect just look at maxwell's equations and all will become clear.
This would require Keith having to do some research on his own without
asking for others to do it.
.
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| User: "tj Frazir" |
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| Title: Re: EMR Induces Electrical Current in Amalgam Fillings |
12 Oct 2005 06:25:48 PM |
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Oh not its not a jolt volt tooth .
Its sound retension as silver bells can be chimed by low sounds and high
sounds .
You might hear a radio ,,but the radio might be just past the ears
range away .
Your tooth might hear an engine running but its not emf its just sound
vibrations picked up by a pice of silver .
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