Science > Physics > Re: Glycolic Acid to Hydrolyse Cellulosic garden matter - Will a bad reaction occur ?
| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"hanson" |
| Date: |
05 Apr 2007 07:00:45 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Glycolic Acid to Hydrolyse Cellulosic garden matter - Will a bad reaction occur ? |
"Michael Moroney" <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> wrote in message
news:ev3o5m$cih$1@pcls6.std.com...
"steve" <steve.mew@gmail.com> wrote in message
Yes, ....I did find was that pretty much any acid will hydrolyse
cellulose but when you are using something as weak as Glycolic
it will take a very very very long time and you have to cook it under
pressure.
<HLS@nospam.nix> writes:
--> We are thinking Glycolic or Sulphuric with a neutraliser
Glycolic is rather weak. Sulfuric, phosphoric, or hydrochloric might
be better choices.
[Mike]
I have seen the description of a process to produce alcohol from wood in
a 1940's book. I don't remember much other than it used sulfuric acid
in a heated pressurized container that operated at about 3 atmospheres.
[hanson]
Mike, you maybe referring to the industrial production of Furfural(dehyde)
by distilling cellulose / pentoses in diluted H2SO4, per brutto reaction:
C5H10O5 ---> C5H4O2 + 3 H2O
Furfural is nasty smelling stuff; polymerizes easily into hard black coke
balls... and the green shits whine that it is extraordinarily cancerous.
Now, I wonder whether anaerobic bio/fermentation methods do exist that
will hydrogenate Furfural into the Pentan(di/tri)ols or even into the
Pentoxone series which would make a far better fuel than EtOH?
hanson
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| User: "Michael Moroney" |
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| Title: Re: Glycolic Acid to Hydrolyse Cellulosic garden matter - Will a bad reaction occur ? |
06 Apr 2007 08:27:46 AM |
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"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> writes:
"Michael Moroney" <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> wrote in message
news:ev3o5m$cih$1@pcls6.std.com...
"steve" <steve.mew@gmail.com> wrote in message
Yes, ....I did find was that pretty much any acid will hydrolyse
cellulose but when you are using something as weak as Glycolic
it will take a very very very long time and you have to cook it under
pressure.
<HLS@nospam.nix> writes:
--> We are thinking Glycolic or Sulphuric with a neutraliser
Glycolic is rather weak. Sulfuric, phosphoric, or hydrochloric might
be better choices.
[Mike]
I have seen the description of a process to produce alcohol from wood in
a 1940's book. I don't remember much other than it used sulfuric acid
in a heated pressurized container that operated at about 3 atmospheres.
[hanson]
Mike, you maybe referring to the industrial production of Furfural(dehyde)
by distilling cellulose / pentoses in diluted H2SO4, per brutto reaction:
C5H10O5 ---> C5H4O2 + 3 H2O
No, the process supposedly hydrolized cellulose into sugars. The sugar
solution was neutralized with lime/limestone and fermented into alcohol,
while the waste (lignin) was burned to cook the next batch.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Glycolic Acid to Hydrolyse Cellulosic garden matter - Will a bad reaction occur ? |
06 Apr 2007 09:26:31 AM |
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"Michael Moroney" <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> wrote in message
news:ev5hsi$ett$1@pcls4.std.com...
[hanson]
Mike, you maybe referring to the industrial production of
Furfural(dehyde)
by distilling cellulose / pentoses in diluted H2SO4, per brutto reaction:
C5H10O5 ---> C5H4O2 + 3 H2O
No, the process supposedly hydrolized cellulose into sugars. The sugar
solution was neutralized with lime/limestone and fermented into alcohol,
while the waste (lignin) was burned to cook the next batch.
This is pretty standard chemistry...Every high school science fair has
someone
hydrolyzing cellulose to make sugars ( and more). Cornstarch is another
material
rather easily hydrolyzed.
Enzymes offer another option.
But you are correct, after hydrolysis to simpler compounds, the "satz" has
to
be fermented and distilled.
.
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: Glycolic Acid to Hydrolyse Cellulosic garden matter - Will a bad reaction occur ? |
06 Apr 2007 08:08:42 PM |
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On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 14:26:31 GMT, <HLS@nospam.nix> wrote:
No, the process supposedly hydrolized cellulose into sugars. The sugar
solution was neutralized with lime/limestone and fermented into alcohol,
while the waste (lignin) was burned to cook the next batch.
This is pretty standard chemistry...Every high school science fair has
someone
hydrolyzing cellulose to make sugars ( and more). Cornstarch is another
material
rather easily hydrolyzed.
Enzymes offer another option.
But the statement "Cornstarch is another material rather easily
hydrolyzed." is misleading. (The word "another" is what makes it
misleading.) Cellulose is not easily broken down, by chemical or
enzymatic processes. That is the barrier to its use. Nature gave us
cellulose as a structural material - and starch as a sugar reservoir.
Starch is easily broken down, cellulose is not. It is inherent in the
structure of the polymer.
bob
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Glycolic Acid to Hydrolyse Cellulosic garden matter - Will a bad reaction occur ? |
09 Apr 2007 05:49:21 PM |
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"Bob" <bbx107.XYZ@excite.XYZ.com> wrote in message
news:e9rd131jt6ffp165v5roo01pd7l6h41pki@4ax.com...
On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 14:26:31 GMT, <HLS@nospam.nix> wrote:
No, the process supposedly hydrolized cellulose into sugars. The sugar
solution was neutralized with lime/limestone and fermented into
alcohol,
while the waste (lignin) was burned to cook the next batch.
This is pretty standard chemistry...Every high school science fair has
someone
hydrolyzing cellulose to make sugars ( and more). Cornstarch is another
material
rather easily hydrolyzed.
Enzymes offer another option.
But the statement "Cornstarch is another material rather easily
hydrolyzed." is misleading. (The word "another" is what makes it
misleading.) Cellulose is not easily broken down, by chemical or
enzymatic processes. That is the barrier to its use. Nature gave us
cellulose as a structural material - and starch as a sugar reservoir.
Starch is easily broken down, cellulose is not. It is inherent in the
structure of the polymer.
I agree, my verbage might be taken as misleading. It is not incorrect
as stated, but can be taken in a couple of different ways.
Cellulose CAN obviously be broken down to starches, dextrins, and
sugars (and God only knows what else). But it adds a step of energy
consumption that would be best avoided.
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: Glycolic Acid to Hydrolyse Cellulosic garden matter - Will a bad reaction occur ? |
10 Apr 2007 12:35:48 AM |
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On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 22:49:21 GMT, <HLS@nospam.nix> wrote:
"Bob" <bbx107.XYZ@excite.XYZ.com> wrote in message
news:e9rd131jt6ffp165v5roo01pd7l6h41pki@4ax.com...
On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 14:26:31 GMT, <HLS@nospam.nix> wrote:
No, the process supposedly hydrolized cellulose into sugars. The sugar
solution was neutralized with lime/limestone and fermented into
alcohol,
while the waste (lignin) was burned to cook the next batch.
This is pretty standard chemistry...Every high school science fair has
someone
hydrolyzing cellulose to make sugars ( and more). Cornstarch is another
material
rather easily hydrolyzed.
Enzymes offer another option.
But the statement "Cornstarch is another material rather easily
hydrolyzed." is misleading. (The word "another" is what makes it
misleading.) Cellulose is not easily broken down, by chemical or
enzymatic processes. That is the barrier to its use. Nature gave us
cellulose as a structural material - and starch as a sugar reservoir.
Starch is easily broken down, cellulose is not. It is inherent in the
structure of the polymer.
I agree, my verbage might be taken as misleading. It is not incorrect
as stated, but can be taken in a couple of different ways.
Cellulose CAN obviously be broken down to starches, dextrins, and
sugars (and God only knows what else). But it adds a step of energy
consumption that would be best avoided.
I am sure you have good intentions, with main ideas on right track.
But this is a chem group, so let's do correct chem.
Cellulose CANNOT be broken down to starch. They are constructed in
fundamentally different ways, and one cannot get from one to the
other. (The glucose units are connected "alpha" in one case, "beta" in
the other. Turns out that makes a huge difference in the resulting
physical properties.) They can both be broken down to sugars -- with
the key problem, we agree, that one is much harder to do, thus more
expensive.
bob
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Glycolic Acid to Hydrolyse Cellulosic garden matter - Will a bad reaction occur ? |
10 Apr 2007 07:52:10 AM |
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"Bob" <bbx107.XYZ@excite.XYZ.com> wrote in message
news:s88m13dj958euonl8ttp6esrkl1fsg85kr@4ax.com...
Cellulose CANNOT be broken down to starch. They are constructed in
fundamentally different ways, and one cannot get from one to the
other. (The glucose units are connected "alpha" in one case, "beta" in
the other. Turns out that makes a huge difference in the resulting
physical properties.) They can both be broken down to sugars -- with
the key problem, we agree, that one is much harder to do, thus more
expensive.
bob
Fair enough.
.
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: Glycolic Acid to Hydrolyse Cellulosic garden matter - Will a badreaction occur ? |
06 Apr 2007 09:45:46 AM |
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Michael Moroney wrote:
"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> writes:
"Michael Moroney" <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> wrote in message
news:ev3o5m$cih$1@pcls6.std.com...
"steve" <steve.mew@gmail.com> wrote in message
Yes, ....I did find was that pretty much any acid will hydrolyse
cellulose but when you are using something as weak as Glycolic
it will take a very very very long time and you have to cook it under
pressure.
<HLS@nospam.nix> writes:
--> We are thinking Glycolic or Sulphuric with a neutraliser
Glycolic is rather weak. Sulfuric, phosphoric, or hydrochloric might
be better choices.
[Mike]
I have seen the description of a process to produce alcohol from wood in
a 1940's book. I don't remember much other than it used sulfuric acid
in a heated pressurized container that operated at about 3 atmospheres.
[hanson]
Mike, you maybe referring to the industrial production of Furfural(dehyde)
by distilling cellulose / pentoses in diluted H2SO4, per brutto reaction:
C5H10O5 ---> C5H4O2 + 3 H2O
No, the process supposedly hydrolized cellulose into sugars. The sugar
solution was neutralized with lime/limestone and fermented into alcohol,
while the waste (lignin) was burned to cook the next batch.
That is rather amusing. Lime comes from calcined limestone - less its
CO2 plus CO2 released by the heating fuel. Just what aspect of the
Earth do you plan to sustainably save?
It would make more sense to feed cellulostics to cattle. Silage.
You'd get milk, meat, hides, and valuable manure to anerobically
ferment into methane then fertilize the fields. It's been done, you
know - it's called "agriculture." Farmers know all about that stuff.
They have a clearer vision because their heads are not sef-righteously
stuffed up their New Age asses.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
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| User: "Androcles" |
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| Title: Re: Glycolic Acid to Hydrolyse Cellulosic garden matter - Will a bad reaction occur ? |
06 Apr 2007 11:49:03 AM |
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"Uncle Al" <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message =
news:46165D1A.790025C1@hate.spam.net...
Michael Moroney wrote:
=20
"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> writes:
=20
"Michael Moroney" <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> wrote in message
news:ev3o5m$cih$1@pcls6.std.com...
"steve" <steve.mew@gmail.com> wrote in message
Yes, ....I did find was that pretty much any acid will hydrolyse
cellulose but when you are using something as weak as Glycolic
it will take a very very very long time and you have to cook it =
under
pressure.
<HLS@nospam.nix> writes:
--> We are thinking Glycolic or Sulphuric with a neutraliser
Glycolic is rather weak. Sulfuric, phosphoric, or hydrochloric =
might
be better choices.
[Mike]
I have seen the description of a process to produce alcohol from =
wood in
a 1940's book. I don't remember much other than it used sulfuric =
acid
in a heated pressurized container that operated at about 3 =
atmospheres.
[hanson]
Mike, you maybe referring to the industrial production of =
Furfural(dehyde)
by distilling cellulose / pentoses in diluted H2SO4, per brutto =
reaction:
C5H10O5 ---> C5H4O2 + 3 H2O
=20
No, the process supposedly hydrolized cellulose into sugars. The =
sugar
solution was neutralized with lime/limestone and fermented into =
alcohol,
while the waste (lignin) was burned to cook the next batch.
=20
That is rather amusing. Lime comes from calcined limestone - less its
CO2 plus CO2 released by the heating fuel. Just what aspect of the
Earth do you plan to sustainably save?
=20
It would make more sense to feed cellulostics to cattle. Silage.=20
You'd get milk, meat, hides, and valuable manure to anerobically
ferment into methane then fertilize the fields. It's been done, you
know - it's called "agriculture." Farmers know all about that stuff.=20
They have a clearer vision because their heads are not sef-righteously
stuffed up their New Age asses.
Then it's time you took up farming and stayed the ***** away
from mathematics. Beta cannot be derived, shitaniumhead.
.
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| User: "Noman Lapetos" |
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| Title: Re: Glycolic Acid to Hydrolyse Cellulosic garden matter - Will a bad reaction occur ? |
06 Apr 2007 01:03:44 PM |
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"Androcles" <Engineer@hogwarts.physics.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3SuRh.62446$%g3.58551@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
"Uncle Al" <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
news:46165D1A.790025C1@hate.spam.net...
Michael Moroney wrote:
"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> writes:
"Michael Moroney" <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> wrote in message
news:ev3o5m$cih$1@pcls6.std.com...
"steve" <steve.mew@gmail.com> wrote in message
Yes, ....I did find was that pretty much any acid will hydrolyse
cellulose but when you are using something as weak as Glycolic
it will take a very very very long time and you have to cook it under
pressure.
<HLS@nospam.nix> writes:
--> We are thinking Glycolic or Sulphuric with a neutraliser
Glycolic is rather weak. Sulfuric, phosphoric, or hydrochloric might
be better choices.
[Mike]
I have seen the description of a process to produce alcohol from wood
in
a 1940's book. I don't remember much other than it used sulfuric acid
in a heated pressurized container that operated at about 3
atmospheres.
[hanson]
Mike, you maybe referring to the industrial production of
Furfural(dehyde)
by distilling cellulose / pentoses in diluted H2SO4, per brutto
reaction:
C5H10O5 ---> C5H4O2 + 3 H2O
No, the process supposedly hydrolized cellulose into sugars. The sugar
solution was neutralized with lime/limestone and fermented into alcohol,
while the waste (lignin) was burned to cook the next batch.
That is rather amusing. Lime comes from calcined limestone - less its
CO2 plus CO2 released by the heating fuel. Just what aspect of the
Earth do you plan to sustainably save?
It would make more sense to feed cellulostics to cattle. Silage.
You'd get milk, meat, hides, and valuable manure to anerobically
ferment into methane then fertilize the fields. It's been done, you
know - it's called "agriculture." Farmers know all about that stuff.
They have a clearer vision because their heads are not sef-righteously
stuffed up their New Age asses.
Then it's time you took up farming and stayed the ***** away
from mathematics. Beta cannot be derived, shitaniumhead.
chill out it's passed over.
.
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| User: "Michael Moroney" |
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| Title: Re: Glycolic Acid to Hydrolyse Cellulosic garden matter - Will a bad reaction occur ? |
06 Apr 2007 06:27:53 PM |
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Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> writes:
Michael Moroney wrote:
No, the process supposedly hydrolized cellulose into sugars. The sugar
solution was neutralized with lime/limestone and fermented into alcohol,
while the waste (lignin) was burned to cook the next batch.
That is rather amusing. Lime comes from calcined limestone - less its
CO2 plus CO2 released by the heating fuel. Just what aspect of the
Earth do you plan to sustainably save?
The CO2 from burning the wood waste, plus that released by burning the
ethanol produced is CO2 originally removed from the atmosphere and
would have been returned to the atmosphere even if the wood it came from
was unused and allowed to rot or burn. Net effect: zero.
The CO2 from the limestone is "old", and its release contributes to global
warming (if human CO2 releases do cause global warming) and is therefore
bad, but you only need to neutralize the acid to allow the yeasties to do
their thing, so is a smaller amount. I suppose "greener" alternatives
are available for neutralization.
.
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