| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"habshi" |
| Date: |
28 Mar 2005 05:38:53 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Large scale solar plant? |
On 27 Mar 2005 05:29:04 -0800, (The
Enlightenment) wrote:
"dexx" <D3xx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<1111651583.898612.96380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>...
Which would be more cost efficient: A solar plant using solar cells,
possibly with concentrators? Or a farm of mirrors focusing on a solar
furnace which heats molten salt and uses it to power a turbine?
There is little difference between them, though photovolatics would
tend to come out ahead slightly in most cases. Parabolic dishehes
using stirling cylcele engines at the focus have achieved efficiencies
of over 30% whereas Gallium Arsenide cells at the focus of
concentrators have achieved also over 30%.
Large scale linear parabolic trough systems using usually synthetic
oil rather than direct heating of water for production of steam
achieve about 12-13% with the overall efficiency per unit area of land
around 6%. Heat storage is in beds of rocks heated by the oil with
molten eutectic salts another possibillity.
10-15% is about the efficiency of good quality photovolatic systems.
Photovoltaic systems have one big advantage besides simplicity: even
in the worst most overcaste rainy day they still produce about 22% of
the output of a sunny day in the same season. This is becuase of
their abillity to opperate using indirect or diffuse radiation. They
infact work brilliantly in snowy environments and some people have
reported increases in power due to snow. They even work through the
snow.
Solar thermal linear parabolic trough collectors however appear to be
much cheper and probably produce electricity at about twice that of
conventional power: ie 10-13c per kw.hr with the advantage of a modest
amount of backup.
There were 4 very large solar thermal systems installed in California
some years that opperated quite well apart from the need for
subsidies.
.
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| User: "habshi" |
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| Title: Re: Large scale solar plant? |
16 Jul 2005 07:17:44 PM |
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Why not mandate that the solar cells be vertical .
A vertical south facing wall will get solar energy most of the day in
the north and we wouldnt lose ANY land at all !
Further in the very hot country , such a wall would shade
behind it and we could build houses there . Why do I have to think of
all these obvious things, Uncle ?
excerpt
Tapping the power of the sun yields savings
By Katie Hicks, The Porterville Recorder
Imagine having a drastically reduced or non-existent electricity bill
for as long as sunlight is available on earth.
That's what the solar panels on top of Bob Ruffa Electric's showroom
are doing for their business.
Solar panels on the rooftop of Bob Ruffa Electric are now powering the
bulk of the business. (Recorder photo by John Tipton)
The 72 solar panels that line the roof are producing enough
electricity to run the business, the parking lot lights and the
lighted signs on the front of the building. And now, each month
instead of an electric bill, the Ruffa's receive a statement in the
mail from Southern California Edison that states the amount of credit
they have built up from the overflow of electricity their solar panels
have produced.
Bobby Ruffa explains the use of solar panels as a process of
generating power from the sun, putting the power back into the grid,
selling it to the Edison company and then buying it back.
"We are backfeeding the electrical system," Ruffa said. "We are making
our own electricity and virtually spinning the meter backwards to
build credit."
If the business uses more than what they create in a certain month,
Edison merely kicks in and supplies them with more power and the
business is billed at the end of the year.
The total cost of Ruffa's 72 solar panels, four converters that
convert sun's energy into energy that can be used for electricity, and
installation was around $75,000. Ruffa expects that the solar panels
will save his business more than $3,600 a year in electric bills.
"If business owners and homeowners can get past the initial cost of
going solar, they will be saving in the long-run," Ruffa said.
Also, homeowners have to option of installing as many solar panels as
they want to offset the cost of things like lighting or
air-conditioning or even their total electric bill.
"We can install a couple of panels now and offset the cost of running
your air-conditioning all day long," Ruffa said. "Or we can install
enough solar panels to cover the baseline charges of your electric
bill."
He said if contractors would offer to install solar panels on homes as
they are being built, homeowners could tack the price of the solar
system on to their mortgage and only increase their payments by about
$30 per month. ( ? mistake , surely it should be more to finance
$72,000 )
"We are trying to get some local contractors on board with us," Ruffa
said. "Even if they just offered it as another option to home-buyers I
think it would catch on here."
Ruffa said he talked to other businesses in nearby towns who had
installed solar panels and were reaping the benefits, so he decided to
expand the business his father built to now include the installation
and sale of solar panels.
And Ruffa's expansion comes just in time as an energy bill that passed
through the Utilities and Commerce Committee last week is making its
way through the California Legislature.
Supported by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, the bill would offer
subsidies to home and business owners who installed solar systems. It
also would require builders of housing developments with at least 50
homes to offer buyers the option of having solar-energy systems.
Ruffa said he is currently working with Nate Wobrock, director of the
new Hoops Preschool, who is installing 210 solar panels on his new
building located on the east end of Henderson Avenue.
He has also talked to the City of Porterville about installing solar
panels on the community's water tanks to power the water pumps.
"Right now, as part of the state's Renewable Energy Program, they are
offering a rebate of $2.60 per watt," Ruffa said. "Plus you get a 7.5
percent state tax credit, and if you are installing them on a
commercial business you get a 10 percent federal tax credit."
Ruffa said the only thing solar users can't do is make money off solar
power.
"The power company tells you when you file the paperwork for this that
you can receive credit for the power you create but they will not give
you a check for the power you don't use," Ruffa said. "And at the end
of they year if you still have a credit, they just send you a letter
thanking you for your contribution to the power company."
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Large scale solar plant? |
16 Jul 2005 07:29:14 PM |
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In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
Why not mandate that the solar cells be vertical .
A vertical south facing wall will get solar energy most of the day in
the north and we wouldnt lose ANY land at all !
Further in the very hot country , such a wall would shade
behind it and we could build houses there . Why do I have to think of
all these obvious things, Uncle ?
Because, you idiot, if you are anywhere but one of the poles you
don't get much energy at that angle.
Snip remaining and folloups set.
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Large scale solar plant? |
28 Mar 2005 09:27:33 PM |
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In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
On 27 Mar 2005 05:29:04 -0800, (The
Enlightenment) wrote:
"dexx" <D3xx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<1111651583.898612.96380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>...
Which would be more cost efficient: A solar plant using solar cells,
possibly with concentrators? Or a farm of mirrors focusing on a solar
furnace which heats molten salt and uses it to power a turbine?
There is little difference between them, though photovolatics would
tend to come out ahead slightly in most cases. Parabolic dishehes
using stirling cylcele engines at the focus have achieved efficiencies
of over 30% whereas Gallium Arsenide cells at the focus of
concentrators have achieved also over 30%.
Large scale linear parabolic trough systems using usually synthetic
oil rather than direct heating of water for production of steam
achieve about 12-13% with the overall efficiency per unit area of land
around 6%. Heat storage is in beds of rocks heated by the oil with
molten eutectic salts another possibillity.
10-15% is about the efficiency of good quality photovolatic systems.
Photovoltaic systems have one big advantage besides simplicity: even
in the worst most overcaste rainy day they still produce about 22% of
the output of a sunny day in the same season. This is becuase of
their abillity to opperate using indirect or diffuse radiation. They
infact work brilliantly in snowy environments and some people have
reported increases in power due to snow. They even work through the
snow.
Solar thermal linear parabolic trough collectors however appear to be
much cheper and probably produce electricity at about twice that of
conventional power: ie 10-13c per kw.hr with the advantage of a modest
amount of backup.
There were 4 very large solar thermal systems installed in California
some years that opperated quite well apart from the need for
subsidies.
Translation: If not for subsidies, no one would even concider building
them.
--
Jim Pennino
Remove -spam-sux to reply.
.
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| User: "Brad Guth" |
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| Title: Re: Large scale solar plant? |
02 Apr 2005 04:23:59 PM |
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j...@specsol-spam-sux.com,
"Translation: If not for subsidies, no one would even concider building
them.
So what?
Life as we've known it is nothing but one damn subsidised lie after
another, taxes upon taxes upon taxes, making the same dollar worth less
than 10 cents within the same year, and that doesn't even include the
government and privet corruption and dishonesty that's running amuck,
like the 5 trillion our resident warlord has blown on behalf of
creating 9/11 and now the Iraq fiasco.
-
Basic township that's situated upon Venus:
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-town.htm
Basic LSE (Lunar Space Elevator):
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/lunar-space-elevator.htm
Other available topics by; Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
.
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| User: "Brad Guth" |
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| Title: Re: Large scale solar plant? |
23 Apr 2005 01:01:45 PM |
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habshi,
About your "Parabolic dishehes using stirling cylcele engines at the
focus have achieved efficiencies
of over 30% whereas Gallium Arsenide cells at the focus of
concentrators have achieved also over 30%"
Except for the matter of fact that only Bill Gates and the likes of
honest ENRON types can afford to implement such technology.
Unless you've got a crop of corn or perhaps something other that's
natrally oily and/or worth converting into ethanol/C2H5OH (along with
having a cash of surplus energy produced H2O2) that's worth less as
food than a third of it's direct thermal energy potential, in which
case leave the solar/PV and solar/stirling options up to those honest
ENRON and SANDIA types that supposedly always have our best interest in
mind (at least those mainstream media published and even spendy NOVA
productions of such impressive infomercials and of their dog-wagging
spin, hype and thereby fostering all of those disinformation-R-us
heathens that are always right as rain), and otherwise just plan upon
paying $10/gallon of whatever fuel that'll still be taken from Iraq as
$1/barrel, and don't even ask where the other $99/barrel is going. As
long as we have our WMD snipe hunting warlords like GW Bush at the helm
of our good ship LOLLIPOP, there's never going to be another oil
shortage for us. Of course, we'll need to construct a few new and
improved oil refineries, as either that or we'll have to start
importing finished fuel products from the likes of Mexico and Canada,
either of which are fairly certain we've placed them on our Axis of
Evil list by their not going along with our 'NUKES in SPACE' program.
habshi; "Photovoltaic systems have one big advantage besides
simplicity: even in the worst most overcaste rainy day they still
produce about 22% of the output of a sunny day in the same season."
There's actually another viable hybrid or composite of PV/mirrors
that'll create and take advantage of a good secondary/recoil amount of
near-blue photons, that which doesn't contribute to the thermal benefit
but should enable another 100 w/m2 to being extracted along with the
250 w/m2 of whatever a good solar/stirling configuration is capable of
providing, thus achieving better than 42% overall conversion, and other
than becoming somewhat spendy and nearly of rocket-science, I do
believe that's better than cooking with gas.
BTW; there are far better examples of solar energy conversions external
to what we've accomplished, of stirling systems that are not so much
trial and error but having been providing utility power grid energy
over the past decade, with new and improved variations coming online as
we speak. Whereas we've actually managed to have killed off a few nice
folks with some of our solar related efforts that obviously got the
best of us where it hurts the most. So, there's still lots of room for
safety and efficiency improvements.
Now that I'm back into posting what I honestly believe is worth saying,
it seems the GOOGLE V-Chip spooks and of their spermware MI6/NSA
providers are hard at work blocking whatever forum throughput and
otherwise attempting to take my PC down again (usually they manage to
kill off as much browser functionality as possible, then go in for the
PC kill by taking out my mouse). At least the bps rate had just gone
back into the nearest space-toilet while there's ongoing packets of
malware and spermware arriving into my PC. Image that, I'm finally
getting my fair share dosage of their mutated DNA/RNA if I want it or
not. So.' I'll have to disconnect, possibly reboot, clean out their
trash and reboot again before getting this and other messages
delivered.
-
Big township that's situated upon Venus:
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-town.htm
LSE-CM/ISS (Lunar Space Elevator)
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/lunar-space-elevator.htm
Many alternate topics by; Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
.
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| User: "Brad Guth" |
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| Title: Re: Large scale solar plant? |
23 Apr 2005 01:48:22 PM |
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habshi,
I'd like to comment about your "Parabolic dishehes using stirling
cylcele engines at the focus have achieved efficiencies of over 30%
whereas Gallium Arsenide cells at the focus of concentrators have
achieved also over 30%
Except for the matter of fact that only Bill Gates and the likes of
honest ENRON types can afford to properly implement and sustain such
technology.
Unless you've got a surplus or even primary crop of corn or perhaps
something other that's natrally oily and/or worth converting into
ethanol/C2H5OH (along with having a cash of surplus energy produced
H2O2) that's worth less as food than a third of it's direct thermal
energy potential, in which case leave the solar/PV and solar/stirling
options up to those honest ENRON and SANDIA types that supposedly
always have our best interest in mind (at least those mainstream media
published and even spendy NOVA productions of such impressive
infomercials and of their dog-wagging spin, hype and thereby fostering
all of those disinformation-R-us heathens that are always right as
rain), and otherwise just plan upon paying $10/gallon of whatever fuel
that'll still be taken from Iraq as $1/barrel, and if you don't want a
WMD inspection team checking out whatever's between your butt-cheaks,
don't even ask where the other $99/barrel is going.
As long as we have our WMD snipe hunting warlords like 'GW Bush' at the
helm of our good ship LOLLIPOP, there's never going to be another oil
shortage for us. Of course, we'll still need to construct a few new and
improved oil refineries, as either that or we'll have to start
importing finished fuel products from the likes of Mexico and Canada,
either of which are fairly certain we've placed them on our Axis of
Evil list by their not going along with our 'NUKES in SPACE' program.
habshi; "Photovoltaic systems have one big advantage besides
simplicity: even in the worst most overcaste rainy day they still
produce about 22% of the output of a sunny day in the same season.
That's because of the lower portion of the visible and near-UV energy
spectrum that's still getting through (much like it does upon Venus). I
believe there's actually another viable hybrid or composite of
PV/mirrors that'll create and take advantage of a good secondary/recoil
amount of near-blue photons, that which doesn't contribute to the
thermal benefit but should enable another 100 w/m2 to being extracted
along with the 250 w/m2 of whatever a good solar/stirling configuration
is capable of providing, thus achieving better than 42% overall
conversion, and other than becoming somewhat spendy and nearly of
rocket-science, I do believe that's better than cooking with gas.
BTW; there has been far better examples of solar energy conversions
external to what we've accomplished, of solar/stirling systems that
have not been so much trial and error but having been providing utility
grid energy over the past decade, with new and improved variations
coming online as we speak. Whereas we've actually managed to have
killed off a few nice folks with some of our solar related efforts that
obviously got the best of us where it hurts the most. So, there's still
lots of room for safety and efficiency improvements.
Now that my PC has recovered (again) and I'm briefly back into posting
what I honestly believe is worth saying, it seems that your GOOGLE
V-Chip spooks and of their spermware MI6/NSA providers are hard at work
blocking whatever forum throughput and otherwise attempting to take my
PC down again (usually they manage to kill off as much browser
functionality as possible, then go in for the PC kill by taking out my
mouse). At least the bps rate had just gone back into the nearest
space-toilet while there's ongoing packets of malware and spermware
arriving into my PC. Image that, I'm finally getting my fair share
dosage of their mutated DNA/RNA if I want it or not. So.' I'll have to
disconnect, possibly reboot, clean out their trash and reboot again
before getting this and other messages delivered.
In addition to any given contribution getting somewhat chopped up in
order for making it least readable (not that I haven't somewhat Klingon
dyslexic encrypted anyway), it seems my other topics page -
guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm - and quite often of others are
still from time to time getting GOOGLE V-Chip spermed into not working,
so perhaps if you're half as smart as you claim, you might get there by
other means unless you're access is otherwise being thoughtfully
blocked by the same V-Chip and MI6/NSA spermware technology. If all
else fails, you can email me and, if I'm not responding to your email
it's only because of other spermware and malware keeping that from
happening, As otherwise you can even call me or use regular mail
because, unlike the vast majority of those making this and other forums
suck, I actually exist as a real person.
-
Big township that's situated upon Venus:
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-town.htm
LSE-CM/ISS (Lunar Space Elevator)
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/lunar-space-elevator.htm
Many alternate topics by; Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
.
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| User: "Brad Guth" |
|
| Title: Re: Large scale solar plant? |
23 Apr 2005 12:27:44 PM |
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habshi,
Now that I'm back into posting what I honestly believe is worth saying,
it seems the GOOGLE V-Chip spooks and of their spermware MI6/NSA
providers are hard at work blocking whatever forum throughput and
otherwise attempting to take my PC down again (usually they kill off as
much browser functionality as possible, then go for in for the PC kill
by taking out my mouse). At least the bps rate has just gone into the
nearest space-toilet while there's ongoing packets of malware and
spermware arriving into my PC. Image that, I'm getting my fair share
dosage of their mutated DNA/RNA if I want it or not. So.' I'll have
disconnect, possibly reboot, clean out their trash and reboot again
before getting this and other messages delivered.
-
habshi; "Parabolic dishehes using stirling cylcele engines at the focus
have achieved efficiencies
of over 30% whereas Gallium Arsenide cells at the focus of
concentrators have achieved also over 30%"
Except that only Bill Gates and the likes of honest ENRON types can
afford to implement such.
Unless you've got a crop of corn or perhaps something other that's
natrally oily or worth converting into ethanol/C2H5OH (along with
having a cash of surplus energy produced H2O2) that's worth less as
food than a third of it's energy potential, leave the solar/PV and
solar/stirling options up to those honest ENRON and SANDIA types that
supposedly always have our best interest in mind (at least those
mainstream media published and even spendy NOVA productions of such
impressive infomercials and of their dog-wagging spin, hype and thereby
fostering all of those disinformation-R-us heathens that are always
right as rain), and otherwise just plan upon paying $10/gallon of
whatever fuel that'll still be taken from Iraq as $1/barrel, and don't
even ask where the other $99/barrel is going. As long as we have our
WMD snipe hunting warlords like GW Bush at the helm of our good ship
LOLLIPOP, there's never going to be another oil shortage for us. Of
course, we'll need to construct a few new and improved oil refineries,
as either that or we'll have to start importing finished fuel products
from the likes of Mexico and Canada, either of which are fairly certain
we've placed them on our Axis of Evil list by their not going along
with our 'NUKES in SPACE' program.
habshi; "Photovoltaic systems have one big advantage besides
simplicity: even in the worst most overcaste rainy day they still
produce about 22% of the output of a sunny day in the same season."
There's actually a hybrid or composite of PV/mirrors that'll create a
good secondary/recoil amount of near-blue photons, that which doesn't
contribute to the thermal benefit but should enable another 100 w/m2 to
being extracted along with the 250 w/m2 of what a good solar/stirling
configuration is capable of providing, thus achieving better than 42%
overall conversion, and other than being somewhat spendy and nearly of
rocket-science, I do believe that's better than cooking with gas.
BTW; there are far better examples of solar energy conversions external
to what we've accomplished, whereas we've actually killed off a few
nice folks with some of our solar related efforts that obviously got
the best of us where it hurts the most. So, there's lots of room for
safety and efficiency improvements.
-
Big township that's situated upon Venus:
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-town.htm
LSE-CM/ISS (Lunar Space Elevator)
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/lunar-space-elevator.htm
Many alternate topics by; Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
.
|
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|
| User: "Brad Guth" |
|
| Title: Re: Large scale solar plant? |
23 Apr 2005 12:11:23 PM |
|
|
habshi; "Parabolic dishehes using stirling cylcele engines at the focus
have achieved efficiencies
of over 30% whereas Gallium Arsenide cells at the focus of
concentrators have achieved also over 30%"
Except that only Bill Gates and the likes of honest ENRON types can
afford to implement such.
Unless you've got a crop of corn or perhaps something other that's
natrally oily or worth converting into ethanol/C2H5OH (along with
having a cash of surplus energy produced H2O2) that's worth less as
food than a third of it's energy potential, leave the solar/PV and
solar/stirling options up to those honest ENRON and SANDIA types that
supposedly always have our best interest in mind (at least those
mainstream media published and even spendy NOVA productions of such
impressive infomercials and of their dog-wagging spin, hype and thereby
fostering all of those disinformation-R-us heathens that are always
right as rain), and otherwise just plan upon paying $10/gallon of
whatever fuel that'll still be taken from Iraq as $1/barrel, and don't
even ask where the other $99/barrel is going. As long as we have our
WMD snipe hunting warlords like GW Bush at the helm of our good ship
LOLLIPOP, there's never going to be another oil shortage for us. Of
course, we'll need to construct a few new and improved oil refineries,
as either that or we'll have to start importing finished fuel products
from the likes of Mexico and Canada, either of which are fairly certain
we've placed them on our Axis of Evil list by their not going along
with our 'NUKES in SPACE' program.
habshi; "Photovoltaic systems have one big advantage besides
simplicity: even in the worst most overcaste rainy day they still
produce about 22% of the output of a sunny day in the same season."
There's actually a hybrid or composite of PV/mirrors that'll create a
good secondary/recoil amount of near-blue photons, that which doesn't
contribute to the thermal benefit but should enable another 100 w/m2 to
being extracted along with the 250 w/m2 of what a good solar/stirling
configuration is capable of providing, thus achieving better than 42%
overall conversion, and other than being somewhat spendy and nearly of
rocket-science, I do believe that's better than cooking with gas.
BTW; there are far better examples of solar energy conversions external
to what we've accomplished, whereas we've actually killed off a few
nice folks with some of our solar related efforts that obviously got
the best of us where it hurts the most. So, there's lots of room for
safety and efficiency improvements.
-
Big township that's situated upon Venus:
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-town.htm
LSE-CM/ISS (Lunar Space Elevator)
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/lunar-space-elevator.htm
Many alternate topics by; Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
.
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