| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"John Baez" |
| Date: |
04 Nov 2005 07:04:59 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Where do mathematical ideas come from? |
In article <1126553173.728455.317420@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Mathematics Lover <markdemers15@hotmail.com> wrote:
c) murray gellman, who "discovered" quarks. Didn't the ancient greeks
already propose that matter was made up of indivisible pieces?
moral of the story: any "new" idea you might have has already been
thought of and probably published by scholars that came before you.
Oh, so it was the *ancient Greeks" who discovered that an approximate
SU(3) symmetry can be used to classify mesons and baryons into multiplets,
and thereby predicted the existence, spin, mass, and decay modes of the
Omega particle, which completed the baryon decuplet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eightfold_way_(physics)
And I thought Gell-Mann had done something original! Now I see: it's
actually all there the works of Democritus. Fascinating.
By the way: don't forget Zweig, who won the Nobel prize along with Gell-Mann,
though he called them "aces" instead of "quarks". And Feynman, with his
"partons".
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Where do mathematical ideas come from? |
05 Nov 2005 03:24:49 AM |
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"John Baez" <baez@galaxy.ucr.edu> wrote in message
news:dkh0fr$jgu$1@glue.ucr.edu...
In article <1126553173.728455.317420@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Mathematics Lover <markdemers15@hotmail.com> wrote:
c) murray gellman, who "discovered" quarks. Didn't the ancient greeks
already propose that matter was made up of indivisible pieces?
moral of the story: any "new" idea you might have has already been
thought of and probably published by scholars that came before you.
Oh, so it was the *ancient Greeks" who discovered that an approximate
SU(3) symmetry can be used to classify mesons and baryons into multiplets,
and thereby predicted the existence, spin, mass, and decay modes of the
Omega particle, which completed the baryon decuplet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eightfold_way_(physics)
And I thought Gell-Mann had done something original! Now I see: it's
actually all there the works of Democritus. Fascinating.
By the way: don't forget Zweig, who won the Nobel prize along with
Gell-Mann,
though he called them "aces" instead of "quarks". And Feynman, with his
"partons".
There are many "Urban Legends" associated with modern physics and
maths,
credit for the GPS system and the transistor
being two of the most hyped.
Although GTR promoters assert that it was/is essential to GPS,
one equation, discovered by Galileo in the 1500's, can be ( And was. )
used to account for p-code offset used in the GPS satellites.
The fifteen complex hacks hyped by the GTR promoters are not essential.
Galileo discovered that the frequency of pendulums
was affected by acceleration, and in fact, in the 1700's,
England sent ships all over the world with pendulums,
and Newton made use of this data to compute many things
about the Earth, such as tides, altitudes, shape, etc.
The "classical" "gravitational red shift" equation is:
f = f0 * ( 1 + 1/2 * g * distance / C^2)
No doubt, it is desirable
to offset the "chip rate" (Frequency) of the "P code",
and although GTR promoters hype the maths of GTR,
I have seen no evidence that any of them understand
why it is desirable ( But NOT essential! ) to offset the "chip rate".
I am still waiting for one of them to make a lucid comment on this.
And as can be seen by reading Maxwell's works,
he started from the concept of "mathematical points",
( Which are more fundamental that quarks, aces and partons.),
explained electric and magnetic fields,
and went on to compute the measured properties of
molecules, massive particles and such.
As I have posted, the invention of the transistor
was a natural evolution that flowed from the "Edison Effect",
the cat's whisker diode/detector and the triode.
It was obvious to many, that a control element could
be placed in a crystal, to control the flow of current,
just as the control grid was used in Edison's diode,
and AT&T, who could most benefit from low cost,
low power consumption, amplifiers,
conveniently waited until prior patents had expired,
before "inventing" the transistor.
After Newton there were immediate and enormous advances in mechanics.
After Maxwell there were immediate and enormous advances in chemistry,
electronics, magnetism, etc.
After the discovery of DNA, there were immediate and enormous advances
in health, animal and plant engineering, the tracing of history, police
work, etc.
After one hundred years, one would think that
a theory hyped as aggressively as GTR,
would make similar advances possible.
I suggest that GTR and most modern math's may be Towers of Babel
that generate more heat than light,
and wastes time, money and minds
on speculations about black holes, warped space, time travel,
worm holes, gravitons, gravity waves, etc.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
--
Tom Potter
http://no-turtles.com
http://photos.yahoo.com/tdp1001
http://tom-potter.blogspot.com
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| User: "Dik T. Winter" |
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| Title: Re: Where do mathematical ideas come from? |
04 Nov 2005 08:49:56 PM |
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In article <dkh0fr$jgu$1@glue.ucr.edu> (John Baez) writes:
In article <1126553173.728455.317420@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Mathematics Lover <markdemers15@hotmail.com> wrote:
c) murray gellman, who "discovered" quarks. Didn't the ancient greeks
already propose that matter was made up of indivisible pieces?
....
Oh, so it was the *ancient Greeks" who discovered that an approximate
....
You misunderstood Mark. Of course the Greeks were right. They were only
wrong about what the indivisible pieces were. But that is only a minor
error. On the other hand, I do not think that those old Greeks did earn
a lot of money with their insight, so to Mark Demers, they obviously were
losers.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
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| User: "Ken S. Tucker" |
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| Title: Re: Where do mathematical ideas come from? |
04 Nov 2005 07:30:39 PM |
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John Baez wrote:
In article <1126553173.728455.317420@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Mathematics Lover <markdemers15@hotmail.com> wrote:
c) murray gellman, who "discovered" quarks. Didn't the ancient greeks
already propose that matter was made up of indivisible pieces?
moral of the story: any "new" idea you might have has already been
thought of and probably published by scholars that came before you.
Oh, so it was the *ancient Greeks" who discovered that an approximate
SU(3) symmetry can be used to classify mesons and baryons into multiplets,
and thereby predicted the existence, spin, mass, and decay modes of the
Omega particle, which completed the baryon decuplet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eightfold_way_(physics)
Hey I checked that link, it's empty.I read a book once,
(maybe twice), by J.M. Ziman, entitled "Elements of
Advanced Quantum Theory", see last pg 257, last
statement, "The Eight-Fold Way". Dr. Baez, I supplied
a ref, I recommend you put something into that wiki that
even I can understand.
That wiki is sofar so good.
Regards
Ken S. Tucker
And I thought Gell-Mann had done something original! Now I see: it's
actually all there the works of Democritus. Fascinating.
By the way: don't forget Zweig, who won the Nobel prize along with Gell-Mann,
though he called them "aces" instead of "quarks". And Feynman, with his
"partons".
.
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| User: "John Baez" |
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| Title: Re: Where do mathematical ideas come from? |
04 Nov 2005 07:55:59 PM |
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In article <1131154238.980599.323600@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Ken S. Tucker <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote:
John Baez wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eightfold_way_(physics)
Hey I checked that link, it's empty.
No it's not - but when I click on it while using Google to read this
article, the right parenthesis doesn't register for some reason, and
my browser goes to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eightfold_way_(physics
which *is* empty. Maybe something like this is happening to you.
By the way: don't forget Zweig, who won the Nobel prize along with
Gell-Mann, though he called them "aces" instead of "quarks".
Whoops! Actually Zweig was the guy who *didn't* win the Nobel
prize! Another guy who worked on similar ideas and didn't win the
Nobel was Ne'eman.
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| User: "Ken S. Tucker" |
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| Title: Re: Where do mathematical ideas come from? |
04 Nov 2005 09:19:27 PM |
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John Baez wrote:
In article <1131154238.980599.323600@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Ken S. Tucker <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote:
John Baez wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eightfold_way_(physics)
Hey I checked that link, it's empty.
No it's not - but when I click on it while using Google to read this
article, the right parenthesis doesn't register for some reason, and
my browser goes to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eightfold_way_(physics
which *is* empty. Maybe something like this is happening to you.
By the way: don't forget Zweig, who won the Nobel prize along with
Gell-Mann, though he called them "aces" instead of "quarks".
Whoops! Actually Zweig was the guy who *didn't* win the Nobel
prize! Another guy who worked on similar ideas and didn't win the
Nobel was Ne'eman.
Well Sir, if they ever make a Nobel prize for communication,
I'm quite certain you'd be up front, IMHO your ongoing efforts
to promote skill advancement by relation is a paramount
achievement. For example a group achievement is superior
to a singled individual, from the PoV of mature adults.
Good times is now,,,
Ken S. Tucker
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| User: "Timothy Murphy" |
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| Title: Re: Where do mathematical ideas come from? |
04 Nov 2005 07:52:19 PM |
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John Baez wrote:
Oh, so it was the *ancient Greeks" who discovered that an approximate
SU(3) symmetry can be used to classify mesons and baryons into multiplets,
and thereby predicted the existence, spin, mass, and decay modes of the
Omega particle, which completed the baryon decuplet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eightfold_way_(physics)
Weren't they on the right lines in thinking
that everything was made from the 5 regular solids?
(This strikes me as at least as close to reality as string theory.)
I think I would prefer a world based on A_5 to SU(3).
--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland
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