| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"ošin" |
| Date: |
01 Feb 2005 02:49:00 AM |
| Object: |
Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
Global warming?
From CNN:
"Record low temperatures over the North Pole are thinning the protective
ozone layer, a condition which could affect human health in northern
countries and even central European nations, the European Union warned
Monday.
....
The meteorological conditions we are now witnessing resemble and even
surpass the conditions of the 1999-2000 winter ...
....
He said temperatures at a 20 kilometer (12 mile) height had dropped to an
average of minus 80 degrees Celsius (minus 112 degrees Fahrenheit), the
lowest over the Arctic in half a century."
www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/01/31/ozone.ap/index.html
And I thought that the IPCC models mostly projected warming to be most
pronounced in the polar regions?!?!?!
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| User: "Brett Aubrey" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
01 Feb 2005 09:58:40 AM |
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"ošin" <ošin@ragnarok.com> wrote in message
news:Rp6dnfkl8eHh32LcRVn-iA@whidbeytel.com...
Global warming?
From CNN:
"Record low temperatures over the North Pole are thinning the protective
ozone layer, a condition which could affect human health in northern
countries and even central European nations, the European Union warned
Monday.
...
The meteorological conditions we are now witnessing resemble and even
surpass the conditions of the 1999-2000 winter ...
...
He said temperatures at a 20 kilometer (12 mile) height had dropped to an
average of minus 80 degrees Celsius (minus 112 degrees Fahrenheit), the
lowest over the Arctic in half a century."
www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/01/31/ozone.ap/index.html
And I thought that the IPCC models mostly projected warming to be most
pronounced in the polar regions?!?!?!
Hiccups are irrlevant - the fact that the permafrost is melting is much more
indicative of the issue over the long-term. Regards, Brett.
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
01 Feb 2005 08:33:58 PM |
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Brett Aubrey wrote:
"ošin" <ošin@ragnarok.com> wrote in message
news:Rp6dnfkl8eHh32LcRVn-iA@whidbeytel.com...
Global warming?
From CNN:
"Record low temperatures over the North Pole are thinning the protective
ozone layer, a condition which could affect human health in northern
countries and even central European nations, the European Union warned
Monday.
...
The meteorological conditions we are now witnessing resemble and even
surpass the conditions of the 1999-2000 winter ...
...
He said temperatures at a 20 kilometer (12 mile) height had dropped to an
average of minus 80 degrees Celsius (minus 112 degrees Fahrenheit), the
lowest over the Arctic in half a century."
www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/01/31/ozone.ap/index.html
And I thought that the IPCC models mostly projected warming to be most
pronounced in the polar regions?!?!?!
Hiccups are irrlevant - the fact that the permafrost is melting is much more
indicative of the issue over the long-term. Regards, Brett.
How frequently does the permafrost melt over the millenia? If you say it does
not I will be interested in the research which confirms it.
What caused the depletion of CO2 between 1400 and 1800 for the little ice age?
If it was not CO2 then, why is it CO2 now? If the world can get warmer on its
own for centuries why can it not get warmer on its own?
Look at the good news, hundreds of thousands of square miles of tundra becoming
the breadbasket of the world.
--
All religions experience extinction events.
Who mourns Adonis?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3373
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| User: "CWatters" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
01 Feb 2005 01:24:05 PM |
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"ošin" <ošin@ragnarok.com> wrote in message
news:Rp6dnfkl8eHh32LcRVn-iA@whidbeytel.com...
Global warming?
yes - It leads to more extremes. Not just warmer overall.
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| User: "ošin" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
01 Feb 2005 01:34:47 PM |
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">> Global warming?
yes - It leads to more extremes. Not just warmer overall.
It leads to more extremes? By what mechanisms?
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| User: "CWatters" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
01 Feb 2005 03:56:27 PM |
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"ošin" <ošin@ragnarok.com> wrote in message
news:O-ydnXCxutxKRGLcRVn-hA@whidbeytel.com...
It leads to more extremes? By what mechanisms?
More energy = more activity. It's why Glider pilots like summer!
http://www.msc-smc.ec.gc.ca/education/scienceofclimatechange/understanding/ccd/ccd_9801/sections/4_e.html
Extreme Weather and Climate Change
Greenhouse Warming and Weather Extremes
Selected quotes:
"...higher temperatures not only increase evaporation and transpiration but
also raise the air's capacity to hold moisture. Consequently, more moisture
will be available in the atmosphere to fall as rain and snow"
"Hurricane intensity could also be affected by a warmer climate. That is
because the theoretical limit for hurricane strength depends upon the extent
of the local energy imbalance between the atmosphere and the ocean."
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| User: "tj Frazir" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
01 Feb 2005 05:14:16 PM |
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1/2 a 100 years is 50 years.
12 miles up dont have a 50 year record.
The serface of the north pole dont have a 50 year record.
Lets see the saatelite dats from 50 years ago.
try 78 ,,,the coldest north pole aftr 78.
minus 117 on the ground ,,not 12 miles up.
Jan 11 1978 on the north pole it was 117 below O=8F* F. if you lick
yer lips yer stuck.
I had to go out and bust ice with a hammer and I could hear my nutz
crack from te cold.
Evry january I go to the south pacific.
Under a palm 82 * tropical sky.
In a T shirt at 117 below you live 400 seconds then your dead.
lungs frozen solid.
blood thinkens
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| User: "tj Frazir" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
01 Feb 2005 06:27:58 PM |
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I started a fire with a pice of ice in alaska.
True
whale of a tail but its all true I swear on my tato.
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
01 Feb 2005 08:52:54 PM |
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CWatters wrote:
"ošin" <ošin@ragnarok.com> wrote in message
news:O-ydnXCxutxKRGLcRVn-hA@whidbeytel.com...
It leads to more extremes? By what mechanisms?
More energy = more activity. It's why Glider pilots like summer!
http://www.msc-smc.ec.gc.ca/education/scienceofclimatechange/understanding/ccd/ccd_9801/sections/4_e.html
Extreme Weather and Climate Change
Greenhouse Warming and Weather Extremes
Selected quotes:
"...higher temperatures not only increase evaporation and transpiration but
also raise the air's capacity to hold moisture. Consequently, more moisture
will be available in the atmosphere to fall as rain and snow"
Sounds like an improvement to me. The predictions of water wars, shortages of
drinking and agricultural water are common. Bad news for the melters though,
glaciers change size by the ratio of winter precipitation to summer melting.
More snow and maybe the glaciers grow.
"Hurricane intensity could also be affected by a warmer climate. That is
because the theoretical limit for hurricane strength depends upon the extent
of the local energy imbalance between the atmosphere and the ocean."
It is not clear how that differential increases. We have people swearing the
oceans are getting warmer. And temperature differential starts from absolute
zero so 1 degree is about 1/3 of 1%. Hurricanes get their energy from warm
waters not cold.
--
Bush said the election will bring peace to Iraq. Is
there any more needed to show he is delusional?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3351
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
02 Feb 2005 08:03:49 PM |
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Matt Giwer wrote:
CWatters wrote:
"o=F0in" <o=F0in@ragnarok.com> wrote in message
news:O-ydnXCxutxKRGLcRVn-hA@whidbeytel.com...
It leads to more extremes? By what mechanisms?
More energy =3D more activity. It's why Glider pilots like summer!
http://www.msc-smc.ec.gc.ca/education/scienceofclimatechange/understanding/=
ccd/ccd_9801/sections/4_e.html
Extreme Weather and Climate Change
Greenhouse Warming and Weather Extremes
Selected quotes:
"...higher temperatures not only increase evaporation and
transpiration but
also raise the air's capacity to hold moisture. Consequently, more
moisture
will be available in the atmosphere to fall as rain and snow"
Sounds like an improvement to me. The predictions of water wars,
shortages of
drinking and agricultural water are common. Bad news for the melters
though,
glaciers change size by the ratio of winter precipitation to summer
melting.
More snow and maybe the glaciers grow.
"Hurricane intensity could also be affected by a warmer climate.
That is
because the theoretical limit for hurricane strength depends upon
the extent
of the local energy imbalance between the atmosphere and the
ocean."
Aren't the most "energetic" winds in the Antarctic? (wind speed
record/most sustained periods of high winds)
It is not clear how that differential increases. We have people
swearing the
oceans are getting warmer. And temperature differential starts from
absolute
zero so 1 degree is about 1/3 of 1%. Hurricanes get their energy from
warm
waters not cold.
Melbourne had its coldest day in history yesterday, and its largest
24hr rainfall!
Jim G
c'=3Dc+v
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| User: "robert j. kolker" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
02 Feb 2005 08:07:35 PM |
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wrote:
Aren't the most "energetic" winds in the Antarctic? (wind speed
record/most sustained periods of high winds)
What is "energetic"? The highest wind velocity was recorded on top of
Mt. Washington in New Hampshire. About 273 mph.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
03 Feb 2005 09:06:16 PM |
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wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
CWatters wrote:
"ošin" <ošin@ragnarok.com> wrote in message
news:O-ydnXCxutxKRGLcRVn-hA@whidbeytel.com...
It leads to more extremes? By what mechanisms?
More energy = more activity. It's why Glider pilots like summer!
http://www.msc-smc.ec.gc.ca/education/scienceofclimatechange/understanding/ccd/ccd_9801/sections/4_e.html
Extreme Weather and Climate Change
Greenhouse Warming and Weather Extremes
Selected quotes:
"...higher temperatures not only increase evaporation and transpiration but
also raise the air's capacity to hold moisture. Consequently, more moisture
will be available in the atmosphere to fall as rain and snow"
Sounds like an improvement to me. The predictions of water wars, shortages of
drinking and agricultural water are common. Bad news for the melters though,
glaciers change size by the ratio of winter precipitation to summer melting.
More snow and maybe the glaciers grow.
"Hurricane intensity could also be affected by a warmer climate.That is
because the theoretical limit for hurricane strength depends upon the extent
of the local energy imbalance between the atmosphere and the ocean."
Aren't the most "energetic" winds in the Antarctic? (wind speed
record/most sustained periods of high winds)
The question was about hurricanes, transient storm systems, not the antarctic. Apples and oranges.
It is not clear how that differential increases. We have people swearing the
oceans are getting warmer. And temperature differential starts from absolute
zero so 1 degree is about 1/3 of 1%. Hurricanes get their energy from warm
waters not cold.
Melbourne had its coldest day in history yesterday, and its largest
24hr rainfall!
And up hear the drought in the American southwest was broken last month. The drought was
"obviously" caused by global warming.
--
It is a great time to be President. You can start wars, waste
hundreds of billions of dollars, get thousands of Americans
killed and wounded and still have a 48% job approval rating
after being re-elected.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3353
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
04 Feb 2005 10:42:42 PM |
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Matt Giwer wrote:
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
CWatters wrote:
"o=F0in" <o=F0in@ragnarok.com> wrote in message
news:O-ydnXCxutxKRGLcRVn-hA@whidbeytel.com...
It leads to more extremes? By what mechanisms?
More energy =3D more activity. It's why Glider pilots like summer!
http://www.msc-smc.ec.gc.ca/education/scienceofclimatechange/understanding/=
ccd/ccd_9801/sections/4_e.html
Extreme Weather and Climate Change
Greenhouse Warming and Weather Extremes
Selected quotes:
"...higher temperatures not only increase evaporation and
transpiration but
also raise the air's capacity to hold moisture. Consequently, more
moisture
will be available in the atmosphere to fall as rain and snow"
Sounds like an improvement to me. The predictions of water wars,
shortages of
drinking and agricultural water are common. Bad news for the
melters though,
glaciers change size by the ratio of winter precipitation to summer
melting.
More snow and maybe the glaciers grow.
"Hurricane intensity could also be affected by a warmer
climate.That is
because the theoretical limit for hurricane strength depends upon
the extent
of the local energy imbalance between the atmosphere and the
ocean."
Aren't the most "energetic" winds in the Antarctic? (wind speed
record/most sustained periods of high winds)
The question was about hurricanes, transient storm systems, not the
antarctic. Apples and oranges.
It is not clear how that differential increases. We have people
swearing the
oceans are getting warmer. And temperature differential starts from
absolute
zero so 1 degree is about 1/3 of 1%. Hurricanes get their energy
from warm
waters not cold.
Melbourne had its coldest day in history yesterday, and its largest
24hr rainfall!
Correction: "coldest Feb day"
And up hear the drought in the American southwest was broken last
month. The drought was
"obviously" caused by global warming.
Maybe the energy in the earth's water/air systems is being distributed
differently,
without net change in the total. (even the continents are moving :-)
)
As for tying up carbon in forestry, what goes
up........(bushfire!)......
Jim G
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
06 Feb 2005 12:22:55 AM |
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wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
CWatters wrote:
"ošin" <ošin@ragnarok.com> wrote in message
news:O-ydnXCxutxKRGLcRVn-hA@whidbeytel.com...
It leads to more extremes? By what mechanisms?
More energy = more activity. It's why Glider pilots like summer!
http://www.msc-smc.ec.gc.ca/education/scienceofclimatechange/understanding/ccd/ccd_9801/sections/4_e.html
Extreme Weather and Climate Change
Greenhouse Warming and Weather Extremes
Selected quotes:
"...higher temperatures not only increase evaporation and transpiration but
also raise the air's capacity to hold moisture. Consequently, more moisture
will be available in the atmosphere to fall as rain and snow"
Sounds like an improvement to me. The predictions of water wars, shortages of
drinking and agricultural water are common. Bad news for the melters though,
glaciers change size by the ratio of winter precipitation to summer melting.
More snow and maybe the glaciers grow.
"Hurricane intensity could also be affected by a warmer climate.That is
because the theoretical limit for hurricane strength depends upon the extent
of the local energy imbalance between the atmosphere and the ocean."
Aren't the most "energetic" winds in the Antarctic? (wind speed
record/most sustained periods of high winds)
The question was about hurricanes, transient storm systems, not the
antarctic. Apples and oranges.
It is not clear how that differential increases. We have people swearing the
oceans are getting warmer. And temperature differential starts from absolute
zero so 1 degree is about 1/3 of 1%. Hurricanes get their energy from warm
waters not cold.
Melbourne had its coldest day in history yesterday, and its largest
24hr rainfall!
Correction: "coldest Feb day"
Close enough for sky-is-melting work.
And up hear the drought in the American southwest was broken last month. The drought was
"obviously" caused by global warming.
Maybe the energy in the earth's water/air systems is being distributed differently,
without net change in the total. (even the continents are moving :-) )
Lots of maybes. But the skeptics need only look carefully at the data to see if it supports the
claims about the data. It never does when melting is involved. It is very like biblical archaeology.
As for tying up carbon in forestry, what goes
up........(bushfire!)......
Not only do those forests have to be harvested and buried but no forest fires. And after harvesting
and burying the nuturients is not clear how the next forest can grow.
--
Americans hold their children to higher standards
than they hold their president.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3361
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
06 Feb 2005 01:42:10 AM |
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Matt Giwer wrote:
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
CWatters wrote:
"o=F0in" <o=F0in@ragnarok.com> wrote in message
news:O-ydnXCxutxKRGLcRVn-hA@whidbeytel.com...
It leads to more extremes? By what mechanisms?
More energy =3D more activity. It's why Glider pilots like summer!
http://www.msc-smc.ec.gc.ca/education/scienceofclimatechange/understanding/=
ccd/ccd_9801/sections/4_e.html
Extreme Weather and Climate Change
Greenhouse Warming and Weather Extremes
Selected quotes:
"...higher temperatures not only increase evaporation and
transpiration but
also raise the air's capacity to hold moisture. Consequently,
more moisture
will be available in the atmosphere to fall as rain and snow"
Sounds like an improvement to me. The predictions of water wars,
shortages of
drinking and agricultural water are common. Bad news for the
melters though,
glaciers change size by the ratio of winter precipitation to
summer melting.
More snow and maybe the glaciers grow.
"Hurricane intensity could also be affected by a warmer
climate.That is
because the theoretical limit for hurricane strength depends
upon the extent
of the local energy imbalance between the atmosphere and the
ocean."
Aren't the most "energetic" winds in the Antarctic? (wind speed
record/most sustained periods of high winds)
The question was about hurricanes, transient storm systems, not
the
antarctic. Apples and oranges.
It is not clear how that differential increases. We have people
swearing the
oceans are getting warmer. And temperature differential starts
from absolute
zero so 1 degree is about 1/3 of 1%. Hurricanes get their energy
from warm
waters not cold.
Melbourne had its coldest day in history yesterday, and its
largest
24hr rainfall!
Correction: "coldest Feb day"
Close enough for sky-is-melting work.
And up hear the drought in the American southwest was broken last
month. The drought was
"obviously" caused by global warming.
Maybe the energy in the earth's water/air systems is being
distributed differently,
without net change in the total. (even the continents are moving
:-) )
Lots of maybes. But the skeptics need only look carefully at the
data to see if it supports the
claims about the data. It never does when melting is involved. It is
very like biblical archaeology.
Captain Cook took careful note of the position of the base of the Franz
Joseph glacier in New Zealand in 1750. Since then, the retreat has been
marked regularly, and shows a pretty dramatic melt back---or else there
has been a lot less snow falling on the top!
The retreat seems to have been underway long before the industrial
revolution.
As for tying up carbon in forestry, what goes
up........(bushfire!)......
Not only do those forests have to be harvested and buried but no
forest fires. And after harvesting
and burying the nuturients is not clear how the next forest can grow.
And if all that CO2 is unavailable for my crops???
Why doesn't anyone blame the air transport industry? What ARE those
pretty vapour trails doing??????
Jim G
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| User: "josephus" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
04 Feb 2005 10:09:30 AM |
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Matt Giwer wrote:
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
=20
Matt Giwer wrote:
CWatters wrote:
"o=F0in" <o=F0in@ragnarok.com> wrote in message
news:O-ydnXCxutxKRGLcRVn-hA@whidbeytel.com...
It leads to more extremes? By what mechanisms?
More energy =3D more activity. It's why Glider pilots like summer!
http://www.msc-smc.ec.gc.ca/education/scienceofclimatechange/understan=
ding/ccd/ccd_9801/sections/4_e.html=20
Extreme Weather and Climate Change
Greenhouse Warming and Weather Extremes
Selected quotes:
"...higher temperatures not only increase evaporation and=20
transpiration but
also raise the air's capacity to hold moisture. Consequently, more=20
moisture
will be available in the atmosphere to fall as rain and snow"
Sounds like an improvement to me. The predictions of water wars, =
shortages of
drinking and agricultural water are common. Bad news for the melters =
though,
glaciers change size by the ratio of winter precipitation to summer=20
melting.
More snow and maybe the glaciers grow.
=20
=20
"Hurricane intensity could also be affected by a warmer climate.That=
is
because the theoretical limit for hurricane strength depends upon=20
the extent
of the local energy imbalance between the atmosphere and the ocean."=
=20
=20
Aren't the most "energetic" winds in the Antarctic? (wind speed
record/most sustained periods of high winds)
=20
=20
The question was about hurricanes, transient storm systems, not the=
=20
antarctic. Apples and oranges.
=20
It is not clear how that differential increases. We have people=20
swearing the
oceans are getting warmer. And temperature differential starts from=20
absolute
zero so 1 degree is about 1/3 of 1%. Hurricanes get their energy from=
=20
warm
waters not cold.
=20
=20
Melbourne had its coldest day in history yesterday, and its largest
24hr rainfall!
=20
=20
And up hear the drought in the American southwest was broken last=20
month. The drought was "obviously" caused by global warming.
=20
Mat, you are selectively ignoring data. The premise-- as I understand=20
it-- is that global waring adds energy to the systeem. It will display=20
it self in the strengthing of systems. Storms, droughts, frequence of=20
stroms. Tenparture ranges will extend. Sea levels will rise. all these =
things will increase.
Ice will melt at the North and Sourth Poles, Glaciers are retreating.
all of this is because of increased energy. This is just that data=20
that something is happening. The idea that Global Warming has specific=20
preditions that match the data means as TEHORY it is gaing credibility.
I think the science is hard and there are not simple answers But I=20
really think we can work toward those answers.
The real question is not whether or not Global Warning exists
.
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
04 Feb 2005 10:35:04 PM |
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josephus wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
And up hear the drought in the American southwest was broken last
month. The drought was "obviously" caused by global warming.
Mat, you are selectively ignoring data. The premise-- as I understand
it-- is that global waring adds energy to the systeem. It will display
it self in the strengthing of systems. Storms, droughts, frequence of
stroms. Tenparture ranges will extend. Sea levels will rise. all these
things will increase.
The last time I looked into the physical of meteorology "weather" is caused by differences in
temperature. (In Florida winters, most days have no weather at all. In summer the weather is a daily
thunderstorm almost good enough for setting clocks.) If everything warms equally the temperature
difference will remain the same. Therefore the same amount of energy (to a very good first order
approximation) will be the same. Everything is with regard to absolute zero not thermometer zero.
Ice will melt at the North and Sourth Poles,
North pole ice already floats so like cubes in a glass of soda there is no effect on sea level from
melting. The Antarctic ice shelf also floats.
So the exercise is to find the amount of water in glaciers on land and determine the maximum
possible sea level rise if they all melt. That is the worst case possibility.
BUT warmer air carries more moisture so warmer winters means more snow. Glacier size is determined
by the difference between winter precip and summer melting. Will warmer temperatures increase
melting over precip or precip over melting?
Glaciers are retreating. all of this is because of increased energy.
I don't ski.
This is just that data
that something is happening. The idea that Global Warming has specific
preditions that match the data means as TEHORY it is gaing credibility.
You have not stated a theory. You have not even hinted at a theory.
I think the science is hard and there are not simple answers But I
really think we can work toward those answers.
Is that your opinion as a scientist? A physicist myself with a career in R&D. What say you?
The real question is not whether or not Global Warning exists
There appears to be a trend in temperatures which indicates that. There is no trend which supports
a human cause. However the trends are far the data requirements on science. There are known events
in human history such as the little ice age which cannot be attributed to human activity.
--
Network news covers the same stories in the same amount of time
and in the same order. There is no evidence they are independent.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3365
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| User: "josephus" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
06 Feb 2005 12:58:20 AM |
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Matt Giwer wrote:
josephus wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
And up hear the drought in the American southwest was broken last
month. The drought was "obviously" caused by global warming.
Mat, you are selectively ignoring data. The premise-- as I
understand it-- is that global waring adds energy to the systeem. It
will display it self in the strengthing of systems. Storms, droughts,
frequence of stroms. Tenparture ranges will extend. Sea levels will
rise. all these things will increase.
The last time I looked into the physical of meteorology "weather" is
caused by differences in temperature. (In Florida winters, most days
have no weather at all. In summer the weather is a daily thunderstorm
almost good enough for setting clocks.) If everything warms equally the
temperature difference will remain the same. Therefore the same amount
of energy (to a very good first order approximation) will be the same.
Everything is with regard to absolute zero not thermometer zero.
Ice will melt at the North and Sourth Poles,
North pole ice already floats so like cubes in a glass of soda there
is no effect on sea level from melting. The Antarctic ice shelf also
floats.
So the exercise is to find the amount of water in glaciers on land
and determine the maximum possible sea level rise if they all melt. That
is the worst case possibility.
BUT warmer air carries more moisture so warmer winters means more
snow. Glacier size is determined by the difference between winter precip
and summer melting. Will warmer temperatures increase melting over
precip or precip over melting?
Glaciers are retreating. all of this is because of increased energy.
I don't ski.
This is just that data that something is happening. The idea that
Global Warming has specific preditions that match the data means as
TEHORY it is gaing credibility.
You have not stated a theory. You have not even hinted at a theory.
I think the science is hard and there are not simple answers But I
really think we can work toward those answers.
Is that your opinion as a scientist? A physicist myself with a
career in R&D. What say you?
The real question is not whether or not Global Warning exists
There appears to be a trend in temperatures which indicates that.
There is no trend which supports a human cause. However the trends are
far the data requirements on science. There are known events in human
history such as the little ice age which cannot be attributed to human
activity.
Ok, it not a theory. So What. A degree in physics is not a degree in
planetary science. or Meteorology. A events go there have been a couple
of notable volcanic eruptions. 1862, 1980, 1988 (think those are
the right dates Krackatoa, Pintubo, St.Hellens) All three of these
events changed the color of the sky, noticeable at sundown and sunrise.
The CO2 levels jumped for each of them.
In school in Texas we studied early Texas settlers. There was a report
of ICE in Galveston bay. Frozen Sea Water? If that was true the little
ice age is deeper that one might expect. This was 30 or so years before
Krakatoa. Krakatoa was a 10000 ft mountain. It famished and left a
ring of islands. That is a lot of dust.
Pinatubo in Mexico made astronomy photography hard. There was too much
dust upstairs.
StHellens was the smallest of the three. It affected night skies for 3
year or so.
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
06 Feb 2005 11:47:08 PM |
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josephus wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
josephus wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
And up hear the drought in the American southwest was broken
last month. The drought was "obviously" caused by global warming.
Mat, you are selectively ignoring data. The premise-- as I
understand it-- is that global waring adds energy to the systeem. It
will display it self in the strengthing of systems. Storms,
droughts, frequence of stroms. Tenparture ranges will extend. Sea
levels will rise. all these things will increase.
The last time I looked into the physical of meteorology "weather"
is caused by differences in temperature. (In Florida winters, most
days have no weather at all. In summer the weather is a daily
thunderstorm almost good enough for setting clocks.) If everything
warms equally the temperature difference will remain the same.
Therefore the same amount of energy (to a very good first order
approximation) will be the same. Everything is with regard to absolute
zero not thermometer zero.
Ice will melt at the North and Sourth Poles,
North pole ice already floats so like cubes in a glass of soda
there is no effect on sea level from melting. The Antarctic ice shelf
also floats.
So the exercise is to find the amount of water in glaciers on land
and determine the maximum possible sea level rise if they all melt.
That is the worst case possibility.
BUT warmer air carries more moisture so warmer winters means more
snow. Glacier size is determined by the difference between winter
precip and summer melting. Will warmer temperatures increase melting
over precip or precip over melting?
Glaciers are retreating. all of this is because of increased energy.
I don't ski.
This is just that data that something is happening. The idea that
Global Warming has specific preditions that match the data means as
TEHORY it is gaing credibility.
You have not stated a theory. You have not even hinted at a theory.
I think the science is hard and there are not simple answers But I
really think we can work toward those answers.
Is that your opinion as a scientist? A physicist myself with a
career in R&D. What say you?
The real question is not whether or not Global Warning exists
There appears to be a trend in temperatures which indicates that.
There is no trend which supports a human cause. However the trends are
far the data requirements on science. There are known events in human
history such as the little ice age which cannot be attributed to human
activity.
Ok, it not a theory. So What.
You called it a theory.
A degree in physics is not a degree in planetary science. or Meteorology.
Which is why I asked you of your scientific degree. You clearly refered to a theory and there was
none presented. You are clearly making a claim to be talking science but your posts give no
indication you even know what science is. Therefore I ask after your qualifications.
A events go there have been a couple
of notable volcanic eruptions. 1862, 1980, 1988 (think those are
the right dates Krackatoa, Pintubo, St.Hellens) All three of these
events changed the color of the sky, noticeable at sundown and sunrise.
Great sunsets. Eruptions are photogenic. Got that.
The CO2 levels jumped for each of them.
In school in Texas we studied early Texas settlers. There was a report
of ICE in Galveston bay. Frozen Sea Water? If that was true the little
ice age is deeper that one might expect. This was 30 or so years before
Krakatoa. Krakatoa was a 10000 ft mountain. It famished and left a
ring of islands. That is a lot of dust.
And you are going to present the causative connection between the two events? Stories from all over
the world after the fact are strongly indicative. But where are you going with this and record cold
temperatures at the North Pole.
Pinatubo in Mexico made astronomy photography hard. There was too much
dust upstairs.
StHellens was the smallest of the three. It affected night skies for 3
year or so.
Where are you going with this? CO2 is particulate matter and cools things off?
--
I am Zarquawi! I am Spartacus!
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3376
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| User: "Puppet_Sock" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
02 Feb 2005 06:41:52 PM |
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CWatters wrote:
[snip]
http://www.msc-smc.ec.gc.ca/education/scienceofclimatechange/understanding/ccd/ccd_9801/sections/4_e.html
If you phone up Environment Canada and ask them what will the weather
be
like in 3 months, they will tell you that long range weather forecasts
are not possible.
If you phone them up and ask what the wether will be like in 30 years,
they say warmer.
Gotta love it.
Socks
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| User: "Bobby D. Bryant" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
02 Feb 2005 06:57:11 PM |
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On Thu, 03 Feb 2005, "Puppet_Sock" <puppet_sock@hotmail.com> wrote:
CWatters wrote:
[snip]
http://www.msc-smc.ec.gc.ca/education/scienceofclimatechange/understanding/ccd/ccd_9801/sections/4_e.html
If you phone up Environment Canada and ask them what will the weather
be
like in 3 months, they will tell you that long range weather forecasts
are not possible.
If you phone them up and ask what the wether will be like in 30 years,
they say warmer.
Gotta love it.
I can confidently predict that it will be warmer in 3 months, too.
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
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| User: "ošin" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
02 Feb 2005 09:45:02 PM |
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I can confidently predict that it will be warmer in 3 months, too.
Not globally. You are thinking of the north hemiosphere only, right?
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| User: "Bobby D. Bryant" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
03 Feb 2005 12:31:36 AM |
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On Thu, 03 Feb 2005, "ošin" <ošin@ragnarok.com> wrote:
I can confidently predict that it will be warmer in 3 months, too.
Not globally. You are thinking of the north hemiosphere only, right?
Specifically, Canada.
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
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| User: "Puppet_Sock" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
01 Feb 2005 04:48:40 PM |
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o=F0in wrote:
">> Global warming?
yes - It leads to more extremes. Not just warmer overall.
It leads to more extremes? By what mechanisms?
An absolutely brilliant theory. Warmer weather is evidence
for global warming. And *colder* weather is evidence for
global warming. Just brilliant.
Socks
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| User: "CWatters" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
01 Feb 2005 04:58:39 PM |
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"Puppet_Sock" <puppet_sock@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1107298120.044467.190650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
An absolutely brilliant theory. Warmer weather is evidence
for global warming. And *colder* weather is evidence for
global warming. Just brilliant.
I guess you don't think the sun causes rain either.
Obviously a bear of very small brain said Paddington.
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| User: "Puppet_Sock" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
02 Feb 2005 12:59:19 PM |
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CWatters wrote:
"Puppet_Sock" <puppet_sock@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1107298120.044467.190650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
An absolutely brilliant theory. Warmer weather is evidence
for global warming. And *colder* weather is evidence for
global warming. Just brilliant.
I guess you don't think the sun causes rain either.
Well, I don't think increased heat causes ice.
Obviously a bear of very small brain said Paddington.
I know you are.
Socks
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| User: "tj Frazir" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
02 Feb 2005 03:04:16 PM |
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Its too cold. 81 * F
it was 86 and now its only 81 .
Burrrrrrrr
Princess Cruises | Bridge Cams
Address:http://www.princess.com/bridgecams/tahitian_bridge_cam.html
Changed:12:12 PM on Thursday, August 19, 2004
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
01 Feb 2005 08:59:16 PM |
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CWatters wrote:
"Puppet_Sock" <puppet_sock@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1107298120.044467.190650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
An absolutely brilliant theory. Warmer weather is evidence
for global warming. And *colder* weather is evidence for
global warming. Just brilliant.
I guess you don't think the sun causes rain either.
Obviously a bear of very small brain said Paddington.
If in fact it is warming then all should be consistent. But if variations are
not rigourously explained it gives the appearance of sticking with a crackpot
idea regardless of events.
--
The essense of modern Judaism is independence can only be
assured by emphasizing its differences from Christianity.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3344
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| User: "CWatters" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
02 Feb 2005 01:18:42 AM |
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"Matt Giwer" <matt@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote in message
news:8mXLd.15987$JF2.8392@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
If in fact it is warming then all should be consistent. But if variations
are
not rigourously explained it gives the appearance of sticking with a
crackpot
idea regardless of events.
Variations = extreems?
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
02 Feb 2005 08:44:22 PM |
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CWatters wrote:
"Matt Giwer" <matt@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote in message
news:8mXLd.15987$JF2.8392@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
If in fact it is warming then all should be consistent. But if variations are
not rigourously explained it gives the appearance of sticking with a crackpot
idea regardless of events.
Variations = extreems?
Any set of random events produces extremes.
As for reporting them, it is like sports, extremes make the news.
Headline! Today's temperatures did not set a record.
--
If the Israelis fighting settlement evacuation realized how
many of Israel's enemies are hoping it leads to civil war
they would support evacuation in a heartbeat.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3374
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Record low temperatures over the North Pole |
01 Feb 2005 08:37:06 PM |
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CWatters wrote:
"ošin" <ošin@ragnarok.com> wrote in message
news:Rp6dnfkl8eHh32LcRVn-iA@whidbeytel.com...
Global warming?
yes - It leads to more extremes. Not just warmer overall.
That is one of those handwaves that is never backed up with either theory or
evidence. It is explaining away the failure of the crackpot idea of warming.
--
All religions experience extinction events.
Who mourns Adonis?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3373
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