| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Nils Dalen" |
| Date: |
11 Dec 2003 05:51:12 PM |
| Object: |
Russian Space Pencil Story |
There is a story that gets often repeated on this group about how the
US spent a ton of money creating a pen to write in space, while the
Russians (those crafty cheapskates) used pencils.
Like a lot of these stories, it just ain't so.
First, Fisher invented the space pen independent of the space program:
http://www.spacepen.com/usa/index2.htm
Second, the Russians didn't use pencils:
Aviation week, Nov. 10, 2003: page 17
Back during the Cold War a story, **probably apocryphal**, circulated
that Soviet cosmonauts didn't need specially pressurized ballpoints to
write in space because they used pencils instead....
Third, regular pens work in space:
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/duque_soyuz_diary.html
(and the remainder of the AV Week article, which I am too lazy to
copy).
NASA did buy a bunch of the Fisher pens, but at a reasonable cost (but
much more than a cheap ballpoint).
Did you ever see Apollo 13? There were a couple of good lessons
there:
1) the Apollo 1 disaster: don't put things in space capsules that are
flamable (e.g. wooden pencils, possibly pencil leads in 100% O2).
2) Remember when the astronauts were getting dressed and placed in the
capsules? Gunter Went (I vonder where Gunter vent?) was dressed in
clean room attire. Think about pencil lead dust in space. It doesn't
fall to the floor, it just floats around and gets into your lungs and
eyes. When things like graphite dust and broken pencil leads do fall
to the floor is during re-entry. That is a really poor time to have
junk falling into your eyes.
Don't even think of a broken pencil lead floating into the electronics
in 100% O2!
Nils.
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| User: "Joseph Nebus" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Space Pencil Story |
11 Dec 2003 09:03:32 PM |
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(Nils Dalen) writes:
1) the Apollo 1 disaster: don't put things in space capsules that are
flamable (e.g. wooden pencils, possibly pencil leads in 100% O2).
But that's not applicable to the Soviets anyway; their capsule
atmosphere was 80 percent nitrogen, 20 percent oxygen, just like on the
earth. One of the many wrinkles in the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project was
that the Soviets needed to develop new, flameproof, non-wool/cotton
suits to safely enter Apollo.
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-4209/ch10-7.htm
Joseph Nebus
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| User: "Harry Conover" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Space Pencil Story |
11 Dec 2003 11:25:41 PM |
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(Nils Dalen) wrote in message news:<892df052.0312111551.1367a4ff@posting.google.com>...
There is a story that gets often repeated on this group about how the
US spent a ton of money creating a pen to write in space, while the
Russians (those crafty cheapskates) used pencils.
Like a lot of these stories, it just ain't so.
First, Fisher invented the space pen independent of the space program:
http://www.spacepen.com/usa/index2.htm
Second, the Russians didn't use pencils:
Aviation week, Nov. 10, 2003: page 17
Back during the Cold War a story, **probably apocryphal**, circulated
that Soviet cosmonauts didn't need specially pressurized ballpoints to
write in space because they used pencils instead....
Third, regular pens work in space:
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/duque_soyuz_diary.html
(and the remainder of the AV Week article, which I am too lazy to
copy).
NASA did buy a bunch of the Fisher pens, but at a reasonable cost (but
much more than a cheap ballpoint).
Did you ever see Apollo 13? There were a couple of good lessons
there:
1) the Apollo 1 disaster: don't put things in space capsules that are
flamable (e.g. wooden pencils, possibly pencil leads in 100% O2).
2) Remember when the astronauts were getting dressed and placed in the
capsules? Gunter Went (I vonder where Gunter vent?) was dressed in
clean room attire. Think about pencil lead dust in space. It doesn't
fall to the floor, it just floats around and gets into your lungs and
eyes. When things like graphite dust and broken pencil leads do fall
to the floor is during re-entry. That is a really poor time to have
junk falling into your eyes.
Don't even think of a broken pencil lead floating into the electronics
in 100% O2!
Nils.
Nils, I suspect the point that you're missing is that space vehicles
are pressurized to only about 5 psi, and the partial pressure of O2 is
essentially the same as that which exists at ground level.
Harry C.
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| User: "Nils Dalen" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Space Pencil Story |
12 Dec 2003 11:58:19 AM |
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(Harry Conover) wrote in message news:<7ce4e226.0312112125.142b2c23@posting.google.com>...
Nils, I suspect the point that you're missing is that space vehicles
are pressurized to only about 5 psi, and the partial pressure of O2 is
essentially the same as that which exists at ground level.
Harry C.
The question isn't just the pressure of the oxygen, but what is in the
oxygen. One doesn't expect a rare-earth oxide to have a problem in 1
atm of O2, but a fresh rare earth metal surface will burn.
Temperature is also very important. There wasn't a problem until a
spark was ignited.
From http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4029/Apollo_01a_Summary.htm:
"As a result of the investigation, major modifications in design,
materials, and procedures were implemented. The two-piece hatch was
replaced by a single quick-operating, outward opening crew hatch made
of aluminum and fiberglass. The new hatch could be opened from inside
in seven seconds and by a pad safety crew in 10 seconds. Ease of
opening was enhanced by a gas-powered counterbalance mechanism. The
second major modification was the change in the launch pad spacecraft
cabin atmosphere for pre-launch testing from 100 percent oxygen to a
mixture of 60 percent oxygen and 40 percent nitrogen to reduce support
of any combustion. The crew suit loops still carried 100 percent
oxygen. After launch, the 60/40 mix was gradually replaced with pure
oxygen until cabin atmosphere reached 100 percent oxygen at 5 pounds
per square inch. This "enriched air" mix was selected after extensive
flammability tests in various percentages of oxygen at varying
pressures."
It is enough of a concern that they still have a group studying oxygen
compatibility
http://www.wstf.nasa.gov/TextExt/Oxygen/Default.htm
Nils
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| User: "Mikko Levanto" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Space Pencil Story |
16 Dec 2003 09:44:24 AM |
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Nils Dalen wrote:
There is a story that gets often repeated on this group about how the
US spent a ton of money creating a pen to write in space, while the
Russians (those crafty cheapskates) used pencils.
...
Second, the Russians didn't use pencils:
...
Don't even think of a broken pencil lead floating into the electronics
in 100% O2!
According to newspapers the Russian space vehicles in 60's and 70's
did not use pure oxygen but ordinary air. That caused some complications
in the Apollo-Soyuz-docking system.
Mikko
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| User: "Boris Mohar" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Space Pencil Story |
11 Dec 2003 06:32:32 PM |
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On 11 Dec 2003 15:51:12 -0800, (Nils Dalen) wrote:
Don't even think of a broken pencil lead floating into the electronics
in 100% O2!
What logic possessed them to use 100% 02?
--
Boris Mohar
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| User: "Paul R. Mays" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Space Pencil Story |
11 Dec 2003 07:25:15 PM |
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"Boris Mohar" <borism@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:833itv06ubm0vlonith04ao8sjsnf3241j@4ax.com...
On 11 Dec 2003 15:51:12 -0800, (Nils Dalen) wrote:
Don't even think of a broken pencil lead floating into the electronics
in 100% O2!
What logic possessed them to use 100% 02?
--
Boris Mohar
Simplicity and economy of space... You can put
up just liquid O2 and use it and get more time for
space and weight... Where as for a nitrogen mix you
now have to bring nitrogen tanks, mixer controls,
feedback circuits and all the stuff required to
measure and supply a breathable mix... Then you have
to scrub the Co2 out and that process is less efficient
in a nitrogen rich atmosphere. Also you can produce
O2 from water supplies and use the O2 reserves with a
hydrogen bleed off and have water.. Nitrogen and other
gases just complicate the situation.....
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Space Pencil Story |
11 Dec 2003 07:11:36 PM |
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Boris Mohar wrote:
On 11 Dec 2003 15:51:12 -0800, (Nils Dalen) wrote:
Don't even think of a broken pencil lead floating into the electronics
in 100% O2!
What logic possessed them to use 100% 02?
100% O2 is perfectly safe at 5 psi. Adding inert gas would be bad
engineering and afford all sorts of problems with decompression,
multiple gas handling, siffer spacesuits from the overpressure...
Just don't do anything stupid with 100% O2 at 760 torr.
Have you ever burned graphite in pure O2? Pencil leads are
graphite-clay mixtures. It's not much of a hazard. If you heat a
diamond to 1000 C and drop it into dewar of liquid O2 it skitter
around some, like sodium on water, until it burns away.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!
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| User: "Nils Dalen" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Space Pencil Story |
12 Dec 2003 12:06:25 PM |
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Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:<3FD915C8.28049880@hate.spam.net>...
...Adding inert gas would be bad
engineering and afford all sorts of problems with decompression...
Unless there is compression, there is no decompression. As long as
the N2 pressure is kept below earth normal, there would be no
decompression on return to earth. If the N2 somehow gave out in
space, there wouldn't be a problem either--there is no special
proceedure to put someone on pure O2.
Nils
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| User: "Nils Dalen" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Space Pencil Story |
12 Dec 2003 01:44:13 PM |
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Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:<3FD915C8.28049880@hate.spam.net>...
Just don't do anything stupid with 100% O2 at 760 torr.
Like try to breath it for days on end. Look up oxygen toxicity.
http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/articles/article.asp?articleid=35
at 1 atm, you shouldn't breath 100% oxygen for more than 300 minutes a
day. (very bottom of the webpage)
This begs the question of oxygen tents and hospitals and the like.
Nils
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| User: "The Ghost In The Machine" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Space Pencil Story |
11 Dec 2003 11:00:43 PM |
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In sci.physics, Boris Mohar
<borism@sympatico.ca>
wrote
on Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:32:32 -0500
<833itv06ubm0vlonith04ao8sjsnf3241j@4ax.com>:
On 11 Dec 2003 15:51:12 -0800, (Nils Dalen) wrote:
Don't even think of a broken pencil lead floating into the electronics
in 100% O2!
What logic possessed them to use 100% 02?
Possibly the logic that the less mass, the better. Of course one
doesn't save an awful lot of mass (1 m^3 = about 40 moles of gas at
standard temperature and pressure), though there is the issue
that there's possibly less plumbing involved -- were they to
bother separating the O2 from the N2.
The only other thing I can think of that might work here is that
they might have figured at one point they didn't need nitrogen.
Unfortunately, we lost 3 good men because of that mistake.
--
#191,
It's still legal to go .sigless.
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