| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Citizen Bob" |
| Date: |
28 Jul 2007 12:20:58 PM |
| Object: |
Saltwater Burns |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6vSxR6UKFM
Saltwater is placed in an RF field and gives off a flame, presumably
from burning hydrogen. Pure water won't work, but sea water and water
mixed with Morton's salt do work..
Does anyone have any comments about this, in particular whether the RF
generator is putting out more energy than is being produced by the
burning of hydrogen.
--
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
--Benjamin Franklin
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| User: "Androcles" |
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| Title: Re: Saltwater Burns |
28 Jul 2007 05:19:09 PM |
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"Citizen Bob" <spam@uce.gov> wrote in message
news:46ab7a7a.277632140@newsgroups.comcast.net...
: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6vSxR6UKFM
:
: Saltwater is placed in an RF field and gives off a flame, presumably
: from burning hydrogen. Pure water won't work, but sea water and water
: mixed with Morton's salt do work..
:
: Does anyone have any comments about this, in particular whether the RF
: generator is putting out more energy than is being produced by the
: burning of hydrogen.
:
Yes, it is putting out more energy than can be recovered.
Normal DC electrolysis will separate the two gases H2 and O2 at the
cathode and anode rather than allowing them to mix, but it may
have useful applications.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water
As pure water conducts electricity very poorly, a water-soluble electrolyte
must be added to the electrolysis cell to close the circuit. The electrolyte
dissolves and disassociates into cations and anions (positive and negative
ions) that carry the current. Electrolytes are normally acids, bases, or
salts.
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Saltwater Burns |
28 Jul 2007 12:36:04 PM |
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Citizen Bob wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6vSxR6UKFM
Saltwater is placed in an RF field and gives off a flame, presumably
from burning hydrogen. Pure water won't work, but sea water and water
mixed with Morton's salt do work..
Does anyone have any comments about this, in particular whether the RF
generator is putting out more energy than is being produced by the
burning of hydrogen.
You do understand the conservation of energy, the second law of
thermodynamics, and the RF energy source. What's to comment on?
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| User: "Citizen Bob" |
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| Title: Re: Saltwater Burns |
28 Jul 2007 02:54:23 PM |
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On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 17:36:04 GMT, Sam Wormley <swormley1@mchsi.com>
wrote:
Does anyone have any comments about this, in particular whether the RF
generator is putting out more energy than is being produced by the
burning of hydrogen.
You do understand the conservation of energy, the second law of
thermodynamics, and the RF energy source.
Yes, of course.
What's to comment on?
Details, as one poster gave.
--
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
--Benjamin Franklin
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Saltwater Burns |
28 Jul 2007 03:13:38 PM |
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Citizen Bob wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 17:36:04 GMT, Sam Wormley <swormley1@mchsi.com>
wrote:
Does anyone have any comments about this, in particular whether the RF
generator is putting out more energy than is being produced by the
burning of hydrogen.
You do understand the conservation of energy, the second law of
thermodynamics, and the RF energy source.
Yes, of course.
What's to comment on?
Details, as one poster gave.
David A. Smith gave you a very satisfactory reply.
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| User: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \dlzc" |
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| Title: Re: Saltwater Burns |
28 Jul 2007 01:17:34 PM |
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Dear Citizen Bob:
"Citizen Bob" <spam@uce.gov> wrote in message
news:46ab7a7a.277632140@newsgroups.comcast.net...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6vSxR6UKFM
Saltwater is placed in an RF field and gives off a flame,
presumably from burning hydrogen.
*Is* burning hydrogen.
Pure water won't work, but sea water and water mixed
with Morton's salt do work..
Does anyone have any comments about this, in
particular whether the RF generator is putting out more
energy than is being produced by the burning of hydrogen.
That is correct. Something like 1000 watts of RF (neglecting
losses in making RF) for 300 watts or less hydrogen combustion.
It might be a way to store energy at a "70%" loss rate... which
is not quite as good as a lead-acid battery or even compressed
air.
David A. Smith
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Saltwater Burns |
28 Jul 2007 12:55:02 PM |
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In sci.physics Citizen Bob <spam@uce.gov> wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6vSxR6UKFM
Saltwater is placed in an RF field and gives off a flame, presumably
from burning hydrogen. Pure water won't work, but sea water and water
mixed with Morton's salt do work..
Does anyone have any comments about this, in particular whether the RF
generator is putting out more energy than is being produced by the
burning of hydrogen.
Oh dear god, not again.
This has been beat to death here.
It is a scam.
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply.
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| User: "Ernie Sty" |
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| Title: Re: Saltwater Burns |
04 Dec 2007 11:10:13 AM |
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<jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message
news:t4csn4-8k6.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
In sci.physics Citizen Bob <spam@uce.gov> wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6vSxR6UKFM
Saltwater is placed in an RF field and gives off a flame, presumably
from burning hydrogen. Pure water won't work, but sea water and water
mixed with Morton's salt do work..
Does anyone have any comments about this, in particular whether the RF
generator is putting out more energy than is being produced by the
burning of hydrogen.
Oh dear god, not again.
This has been beat to death here.
It is a scam.
Not exactly a scam. It works, it's just a very "lossy" energy process and
therefore completely impractical as an energy source.
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| User: "jim" |
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| Title: Re: Saltwater Burns |
04 Dec 2007 05:58:16 PM |
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"Ernie Sty" <fake_email@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hrSdnTWMj9ZoFMjanZ2dnUVZ_qiinZ2d@giganews.com...
<jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message
news:t4csn4-8k6.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
In sci.physics Citizen Bob <spam@uce.gov> wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6vSxR6UKFM
Saltwater is placed in an RF field and gives off a flame, presumably
from burning hydrogen. Pure water won't work, but sea water and water
mixed with Morton's salt do work..
Does anyone have any comments about this, in particular whether the RF
generator is putting out more energy than is being produced by the
burning of hydrogen.
Oh dear god, not again.
This has been beat to death here.
It is a scam.
Not exactly a scam. It works, it's just a very "lossy" energy process and
therefore completely impractical as an energy source.
Are there any studies on the energy needed to perform this RF translation of
saltwater to power? I would think that it would be extremely inefficient -
as most RF technologies are when power transmission is concerned.
Although I do not wish to discuss the merits of his car engine or the many
theories surround Stan Meyer's death, he clearly shows that there are other
methods of seperating water into useful fuels than the RF method. Check
out the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcy3JbGjQwo and look at the
portion from about 2:40 to about 3:40.
If this is true, it may be self-sustaining. I have not seen any firm
explanation of how this is accomplished (metals used, hertz, amps, voltage,
etc.) or of the power generated (other than vague references in the video to
many times more available power being produced than input - I hope they
escuse my skepticism until firm numbers and processes are made available for
independent testing).
If you have seen any firm explanation of how Stan Meyers breaks apart water
with his little machine, please post it here.
jim
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| User: "Vince Morgan vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au" |
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| Title: Re: Saltwater Burns |
09 Dec 2007 02:23:00 AM |
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"jim" <jim@home.net> wrote in message
news:3Ql5j.21038$mb.1773@bignews9.bellsouth.net...
If you have seen any firm explanation of how Stan Meyers breaks apart
water
with his little machine, please post it here.
jim
I beleive it works as follows.
The cells you see in the video within the clear cylinder are virtualy
cylindrical capacitors with a plain water dielectric.
Electric pulses provided through his cricuitry ramp up the voltage across
the cells, increasing the electrostatic potential until dielectric breakdown
occurs. At the moment, or shortly thereafter, breakdown occures the voltage
supplied to that cell/capacitor is terminated and the process is repeated,
again and again. According to the video the pusle rate is about 20khz.
The breakdown in the dielectric, being water in this case, breakes the bonds
between the hydrogen and oxygen releasing them as gas bubbles.
NASA had great interest in this device as you may well imagine considering
the amout of oxygen and hydrogen their liquid fuel rockets use. With that
in mind you may wish to read the results they were able to achieve, rather
than that quoted in the video. I can't point you toward that information as
I haven't read it for some time and can no longer remember.
Vince
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| User: "jim" |
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| Title: Re: Saltwater Burns |
09 Dec 2007 05:21:48 AM |
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"Vince Morgan" <vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:475ba5a2$0$17825$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"jim" <jim@home.net> wrote in message
news:3Ql5j.21038$mb.1773@bignews9.bellsouth.net...
If you have seen any firm explanation of how Stan Meyers breaks apart
water
with his little machine, please post it here.
jim
I beleive it works as follows.
The cells you see in the video within the clear cylinder are virtualy
cylindrical capacitors with a plain water dielectric.
Electric pulses provided through his cricuitry ramp up the voltage across
the cells, increasing the electrostatic potential until dielectric
breakdown
occurs. At the moment, or shortly thereafter, breakdown occures the
voltage
supplied to that cell/capacitor is terminated and the process is repeated,
again and again. According to the video the pusle rate is about 20khz.
The breakdown in the dielectric, being water in this case, breakes the
bonds
between the hydrogen and oxygen releasing them as gas bubbles.
NASA had great interest in this device as you may well imagine considering
the amout of oxygen and hydrogen their liquid fuel rockets use. With that
in mind you may wish to read the results they were able to achieve, rather
than that quoted in the video. I can't point you toward that information
as
I haven't read it for some time and can no longer remember.
I found references to NASA and Stan's invention, but no hard facts about the
amounts of hydrogen and oxygen they were able to produce.
I find it quite interesting that this technology has never found its way to
the public. Perhaps it did not work, but the video and patent evidence seem
to indicate otherwise.
It is certainly something worth looking into. Stan was not the only one
turning water into a fuel. I have seen several others including a right
handly welding torch that uses water for fuel.
It seems that this technology would not only solve energy needs, but may
even be able to simultaneously solve the need for fresh water and provide
the power to move the fresh water to where it is needed.
The next time a Stan Meyer claims to want to help the world (or, in Stan's
case, the United States), perhaps they should release instructions on how to
build the devices for personal use (since a patent does not stop you from
building a patented device for personal use - only for sale to others) via a
mass media outlet like the internet or handing out the info at a NASCAR
event (at least it would be hard to put the genie back into the bottle
then).
Then, even in the case of the death of the inventor, the device could live
on and actually be the change that the inventor claims to have wanted.
But, in most cases (and evidentally in Stan Meyer's case also) I think the
inventors are more about the money than "saving the world" (or even their
little corner of it).
If Stan Meyer really wanted to change the world (or the US from oil rich
countries) and his invention worked as advertised, he could have. He stated
that he had recieved death threats and claimed to have been poisoned at the
moment of his death (or so I read). Knowing that he may be killed, wouldn't
someone that supposedly wanted to "change the world" just go ahead and do
so - or at least make the revelation of the invention a part of his will
("upon my unnatural death, I relaese into the public domain...")?
Who knows how he actually did it? Does his brother (I think he is still
alive)? Why hasn't he used it to help mankind? Did Stan's secrets die with
him? Has the US government asserted its authority to take away your
patented devices in the name of national security? They can do that you
know - and leave you with nothing and jail you if you reveal the invention
to others.
If the Meyer contraption did actually work as advertised, then greed
evidentally got the better part of valor here.
That's too bad.
jim
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| User: "Vince Morgan vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au" |
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| Title: Re: Saltwater Burns |
09 Dec 2007 05:49:42 PM |
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"jim" <jim@home.net> wrote in message
news:bdQ6j.34371$K27.4175@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
Who knows how he actually did it? Does his brother (I think he is still
alive)? Why hasn't he used it to help mankind? Did Stan's secrets die
with
him? Has the US government asserted its authority to take away your
patented devices in the name of national security? They can do that you
know - and leave you with nothing and jail you if you reveal the invention
to others.
The patents can be viewed, or at least they could last time I looked. There
is a wiki entry on it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fuel_cell
The circuit that is shown in the above entry is the same one I saw some
years ago I beleive, and looks to be authentic.
If you build that circuit you should find that it behaves as you saw in the
video.
As to whether or not it could produce hydrogen/oxygen in quantities that
exceeded the amount of energy required to produce it, I have very serious
doubts.
By it's mode of opperation it would appear to literally snap the bonds as
you would if you were to stretch a rubber band in small increments until it
finaly snapped. Repeatedly at 20khz. That infers no gain I'm afraid. He
is pulling directly against the bond, apparently.
The device would be quite easy to replicate. Only one column need be made
to test it, and I can't remember anything expensive about the circuitry.
Vince
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| User: "jim" |
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| Title: Re: Saltwater Burns |
09 Dec 2007 05:33:36 AM |
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FYI for those that want info on the welding torch driven by water -
http://www.hytechapps.com/aquygen/hhos .
Is hydrogen as explosive as natural gas? I'm asking because I wonder why
Denny Klein opted to simply enhance fuel efficiency with his invention (at
the same URL) instead of totally replacing the gasoline burned by the
vehicle.
jim
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| User: "Vince Morgan vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au" |
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| Title: Re: Saltwater Burns |
18 Dec 2007 04:00:03 AM |
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"jim" <jim@home.net> wrote in message
news:foQ6j.34372$K27.15887@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
FYI for those that want info on the welding torch driven by water -
http://www.hytechapps.com/aquygen/hhos .
Is hydrogen as explosive as natural gas? I'm asking because I wonder why
Yep, it certainly is.
Denny Klein opted to simply enhance fuel efficiency with his invention (at
the same URL) instead of totally replacing the gasoline burned by the
vehicle.
The hydrogen that is added helps to achieve better combustion. The amount
used is actualy quite small and doesn't contribute much energy to the
combustion process itself. However the increase in combustion efficiency
can be quite dramatic, with considerable fuel saving I beleive.
As to why it is not being utalized, that's another question altogether Jim,
and a very different topic.
Regards,
Vince
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