| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"=?UTF-8?Q?Jeff=E2=80=A6Relf?=" |
| Date: |
19 Apr 2006 08:34:06 AM |
| Object: |
Science was Einstein's Religion. |
Hi All, Einstein believed _True_ theorists are Sober_Minded metaphysicists,
saying:
Every _True_ theorist is a kind of tamed metaphysicist,
no matter how pure a positivist he may fancy himself.
[ ... He believes in ]
a conceptual system built on premises of great simplicity.
He also believed randomness was _Always_
a failure to measure some intrinsic causality. For example, he once said:
The scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation.
The future, to him, is every whit as necessary and determined as the past.
__ See Albert Einstein's The_World_As_I_See_It
StephenJayGould.ORG/ctrl/einstein_religion.html
Consequently, he felt physical processes determined absolutely everything,
including man's desires. See WikiPedia.ORG/wiki/Physicalism
For example, he once said:
I do not believe in freedom of the will. Schopenhauer's words:
“ Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills ”
accompany me in all situations throughout my life
and reconcile me with the actions of others
even if they are rather painful to me.
This awareness of the lack of freedom of will
preserves me from taking too seriously myself and my fellow men
as acting and deciding individuals and from losing my temper."
__ From a speech by Albert Einstein to the German League of Human Rights,
Berlin, in the autumn of 1932, See: EinsteinAndReligion.COM/credo.html
Driven by such a faith,
Eistein became a master at finding once hidden causalities.
For example, his General Relativity explained exactly how
a clock with 10 ^ -16 second accuracy ticks faster
with a minute increase in altitude... long before it was empirically proven.
See: Time Too Good to Be True, PhysicsToday.ORG/vol-59/iss-3/p10.html
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| User: "Eric Gisse" |
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| Title: Re: _True_ theorists are Sober_Minded metaphysicists. |
19 Apr 2006 11:53:10 PM |
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Jeff...Relf wrote:
Hi Eric_Gisse, I wrote:
Einstein believed _True_ theorists are Sober_Minded metaphysicists,
saying:
Every _True_ theorist is a kind of tamed metaphysicist,
no matter how pure a positivist he may fancy himself.
[ ... He believes in ]
a conceptual system built on premises of great simplicity.
And you replied:
The word "sober" was not found on that page.
As I said, moron, these are your INTERPRETATIONS of what Einstein said
- not what Einstein actually said.
The adjective I used: Sober_Minded metaphysicist
is there for clarification and emphasis.
Enstein's own adjective: a kind of tamed metaphysicist
immediately follows so that even dickweeds like you can follow it.
Thank you for pointing out exactly what I said.
Einstein didn't say it, it is simply your interpretation of what he
said.
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| User: "=?UTF-8?Q?Jeff=E2=80=A6Relf?=" |
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| Title: Re: _True_ theorists are Sober_Minded metaphysicists. |
20 Apr 2006 12:09:48 AM |
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Hi Eric_Gisse,
The adjective I used: Sober_Minded metaphysicist
merely adds clarification and emphasis to Enstein's own adjective:
a kind of tamed metaphysicist
And that adjective immediately follows so that
even the braindead, like you, can decide for themselves.
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| User: "T Wake" |
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| Title: Re: _True_ theorists are Sober_Minded metaphysicists. |
20 Apr 2006 07:44:02 AM |
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"Jeff.Relf" <Jeff_Relf@Yahoo.COM> wrote in message
news:Jeff_Relf_2006_Apr_19_6P8F@Cotse.NET...
Hi Eric_Gisse,
The adjective I used: Sober_Minded metaphysicist
merely adds clarification and emphasis to Enstein's own adjective:
a kind of tamed metaphysicist
And that adjective immediately follows so that
even the braindead, like you, can decide for themselves.
Jeff, the problem is you are making up what *you* think is the correct
interpretation.
This is why you are poor when it comes to science, you can not tell the
difference between your own ideas and reality.
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| User: "=?UTF-8?Q?Jeff=E2=80=A6Relf?=" |
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| Title: WikiPedia is not 100 percent unoriginal. |
20 Apr 2006 08:52:40 AM |
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Hi T_Wake, I told Eric_Gisse,
The adjective I used: Sober_Minded metaphysicist
merely adds clarification and emphasis to Enstein's own adjective:
a kind of tamed metaphysicist
And that adjective immediately follows so that
even the braindead, like you, can decide for themselves.
And you replied:
Jeff, the problem is you are making up what *you* think is the correct
interpretation.
This is why you are poor when it comes to science, you can not tell the
difference between your own ideas and reality.
Anyone who writes is going to use his own words sometimes...
Don't you think ? WikiPedia is not 100 percent unoriginal.
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| User: "T Wake" |
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| Title: Re: WikiPedia is not 100 percent unoriginal. |
20 Apr 2006 01:10:50 PM |
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"Jeff.Relf" <Jeff_Relf@Yahoo.COM> wrote in message
news:Jeff_Relf_2006_Apr_20_tjuL@Cotse.NET...
Hi T_Wake, I told Eric_Gisse,
The adjective I used: Sober_Minded metaphysicist
merely adds clarification and emphasis to Enstein's own adjective:
a kind of tamed metaphysicist
And that adjective immediately follows so that
even the braindead, like you, can decide for themselves.
And you replied:
Jeff, the problem is you are making up what *you* think is the correct
interpretation.
This is why you are poor when it comes to science, you can not tell the
difference between your own ideas and reality.
Anyone who writes is going to use his own words sometimes...
Don't you think ? WikiPedia is not 100 percent unoriginal.
Well, it is a poor equivalent to scientific publications.
This distracts from your attempting to pass off your interpretations as the
"correct" ones, which is the problem.
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| User: "Eric Gisse" |
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| Title: Re: _True_ theorists are Sober_Minded metaphysicists. |
20 Apr 2006 12:34:27 AM |
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Jeff...Relf wrote:
Hi Eric_Gisse,
The adjective I used: Sober_Minded metaphysicist
merely adds clarification and emphasis to Enstein's own adjective:
a kind of tamed metaphysicist
And that adjective immediately follows so that
even the braindead, like you, can decide for themselves.
Thank you for continuing to prove my point for me.
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| User: "Surfer" |
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| Title: Re: Science was Einstein's Religion. |
20 Apr 2006 08:30:51 AM |
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On 19 Apr 2006 12:19:56 -0700, "Eric Gisse" <jowr.pi@gmail.com> wrote:
Jeff...Relf wrote:
Hi All, Einstein believed _True_ theorists are Sober_Minded metaphysicists,
saying:
Every _True_ theorist is a kind of tamed metaphysicist,
no matter how pure a positivist he may fancy himself.
[ ... He believes in ]
a conceptual system built on premises of great simplicity.
No, moron, that is your interpretation of what he said.
Why don't you produce a citation that says Einstein actually said it?
This appears to be the context for the above quote.
http://www.marshall.edu/physics/ECH/engi625/NetIt9/521x.htm
"There exists a passion for comprehension, just as there
exists a passion for music. That passion is rather common
in children, but gets lost in most people later on. Without
this passion, there would be neither mathematics nor natu-
ral science. Time and again the passion for understanding
has led to the illusion that man is able to comprehend the
objective world rationally, by pure thought, without any em-
pirical foundations -- in short, by metaphysics. I believe that
every true theorist is a kind of tamed metaphysicist, no mat-
ter how pure a "positivist" he may fancy himself. The meta-
physicist believes that the logically simple is also the real.
The tamed metaphysicist believes that not all that is logically
simple is embodied in physical reality, but that the totality of
all sensory experience can be "comprehended" on the basis
of a conceptual system built on premises of great simplicity.
The skeptic will say that this a " miracle creed." Admittedly
so , but it is a miracle creed which has been borne out to an
amazing extent by the development of science."
--Albert Einstein
Scientific American, 1950
In what way is Jeff wrong?
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| User: "T Wake" |
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| Title: Re: Science was Einstein's Religion. |
20 Apr 2006 01:17:43 PM |
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"Surfer" <surfer@no.spam.net> wrote in message
news:c23f42p7qiuis4mi5hf1fi9jd603o8g493@4ax.com...
On 19 Apr 2006 12:19:56 -0700, "Eric Gisse" <jowr.pi@gmail.com> wrote:
Jeff...Relf wrote:
Hi All, Einstein believed _True_ theorists are Sober_Minded
metaphysicists,
saying:
Every _True_ theorist is a kind of tamed metaphysicist,
no matter how pure a positivist he may fancy himself.
[ ... He believes in ]
a conceptual system built on premises of great simplicity.
No, moron, that is your interpretation of what he said.
Why don't you produce a citation that says Einstein actually said it?
This appears to be the context for the above quote.
http://www.marshall.edu/physics/ECH/engi625/NetIt9/521x.htm
"There exists a passion for comprehension, just as there
exists a passion for music. That passion is rather common
in children, but gets lost in most people later on. Without
this passion, there would be neither mathematics nor natu-
ral science. Time and again the passion for understanding
has led to the illusion that man is able to comprehend the
objective world rationally, by pure thought, without any em-
pirical foundations -- in short, by metaphysics. I believe that
every true theorist is a kind of tamed metaphysicist, no mat-
ter how pure a "positivist" he may fancy himself. The meta-
physicist believes that the logically simple is also the real.
The tamed metaphysicist believes that not all that is logically
simple is embodied in physical reality, but that the totality of
all sensory experience can be "comprehended" on the basis
of a conceptual system built on premises of great simplicity.
The skeptic will say that this a " miracle creed." Admittedly
so , but it is a miracle creed which has been borne out to an
amazing extent by the development of science."
--Albert Einstein
Scientific American, 1950
In what way is Jeff wrong?
Where, in the above, did Einstein use the term "sober minded?" The crux of
the long running (ahem) debates with Jeff Relf centre on his use of certain
terms.
He purports that Einstein (who Relf appears to have deified to some extent)
meant "sober" (which he has now changed to "Sober Minded") when he said
"tame." For most people, especially given Relf's history of posts, this is a
leap of faith.
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| User: "=?UTF-8?Q?Jeff=E2=80=A6Relf?=" |
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| Title: T_Wake, Please elucidate for us what Einstein meant. |
21 Apr 2006 12:19:56 AM |
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Hi T_Wake, Finding the correct adjective, -- Sober_Minded metaphysicist --,
took me a long time... including a debate with Astral_Usenet, Gisse and you.
You can do better ?
Please elucidate for us what Einstein meant when he wrote:
Every true theorist is a kind of tamed metaphysicist.
And don't forget that Religion is the topic.
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| User: "T Wake" |
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| Title: Re: T_Wake, Please elucidate for us what Einstein meant. |
21 Apr 2006 07:38:09 AM |
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"Jeff.Relf" <Jeff_Relf@Yahoo.COM> wrote in message
news:Jeff_Relf_2006_Apr_20_Hm2T@Cotse.NET...
Hi T_Wake, Finding the correct adjective, -- Sober_Minded
metaphysicist --,
took me a long time... including a debate with Astral_Usenet, Gisse and
you.
You can do better ?
Did I say I could?
Please elucidate for us what Einstein meant when he wrote:
Every true theorist is a kind of tamed metaphysicist.
It means what it says. There is no need to re-define any of the words used.
Make the statement and let the reader determine thier own interpretation.
By trying to redefine what someone else said you are implying thier choice
of words is incorrect and *you* know what they (in this case Einstien) were
thinking better than they did themselves.
As this is not the case, do not try to re-word other people's quotes.
And don't forget that Religion is the topic.
This is sci.physics not alt.Einstein.worshipers
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| User: "=?UTF-8?Q?Jeff=E2=80=A6Relf?=" |
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| Title: No real choices anywhere. |
21 Apr 2006 10:28:14 AM |
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Hi T_Wake, In the context of Einstein's views of religion, I asked you:
Please elucidate for us what Einstein meant when he wrote:
Every true theorist is a kind of tamed metaphysicist.
And you replied:
I can't do that. Hell, I can even eat or ***** without assistance.
Yup, that's what I thought !
Einstein considered Sober_Minded cosmology a higher form of religion,
free of primitive lusts and desires... pure humility, so to speak.
You were forced to be born, he said, forced to die,
and forced to consume like a pig... no real choices anywhere.
All earthly Gods pale in comparison to the cosmos.
The future is just as immutable as the past,
randomness can only be a failure to measure some intrinsic causality.
Speaking of one who feels " the cosmic religious sense ", as he put it,
he said:
He feels the individual destiny as an imprisonment and seeks to experience
the totality of existence as a unity full of significance.
__ EndlessSearch.CO.UK/science_cosmicreligion.htm
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| User: "T Wake" |
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| Title: Re: No real choices anywhere. |
21 Apr 2006 10:46:08 AM |
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In <Jeff_Relf_2006_Apr_21_hest@Cotse.NET>, sent to sci.physics on Friday 21
April 2006 16:28, Jeff…Relf (Jeff_Relf@Yahoo.COM) had a brainstorm and
wrote:
Hi T_Wake, In the context of Einstein's views of religion, I asked you:
Please elucidate for us what Einstein meant when he wrote:
Every true theorist is a kind of tamed metaphysicist.
And you replied:
I can't do that. Hell, I can even eat or ***** without assistance.
Very funny. That will keep you giggling for weeks.
Unfortunately it does little other than identify your lack of understanding
and your lack of any degree of intellectual honesty.
Yup, that's what I thought !
<snip nonsense>
You can give any meaning you wish to Einstein's words. Most of the things
you post are nonsense so why should this be any different.
--
T Wake
Usenet.es7 at gishpuppy.com
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| User: "=?UTF-8?Q?Jeff=E2=80=A6Relf?=" |
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| Title: T_Wake has demonstrated that he doesn't understand Einsteins simple words. |
21 Apr 2006 11:14:42 PM |
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Hi T_Wake, Re: My comments on Einstein's religious views, You told me:
You can give any meaning you wish to Einstein's words.
Most of the things you post are nonsense
so why should this be any different.
You demonstrated that you didn't understand Einsteins simple words.
I'm left to wonder what it is you do understand, if anything.
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| User: "T Wake" |
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| Title: Re: T_Wake has demonstrated that he doesn't understand Einsteins simple words. |
22 Apr 2006 03:24:18 AM |
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In <Jeff_Relf_2006_Apr_21_drHF@Cotse.NET>, sent to sci.physics on Saturday
22 April 2006 05:14, Jeff…Relf (Jeff_Relf@Yahoo.COM) had a brainstorm and
wrote:
Hi T_Wake, Re: My comments on Einstein's religious views, You told me:
You can give any meaning you wish to Einstein's words.
Most of the things you post are nonsense
so why should this be any different.
You demonstrated that you didn't understand Einsteins simple words.
I'm left to wonder what it is you do understand, if anything.
I notice that your tendency to re-word my posts to take as much of the
content out as possible is growing.
I am flattered. It means I am asking you questions you are unable to respond
to. This is without mentioning about how you had to reword my post to
change what I said, so that you get a puerile kick out of it.
Jeff, you know nothing about science. You know little about programming. You
are, frankly, pointless.
--
T Wake
Usenet.es7 at gishpuppy.com
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| User: "Surfer" |
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| Title: Re: Science was Einstein's Religion. |
19 Apr 2006 01:59:36 PM |
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On 19 Apr 2006 13:34:06 GMT, JeffRelf <Jeff_Relf@Yahoo.COM> wrote:
Hi All, Einstein believed _True_ theorists are Sober_Minded metaphysicists,
saying:
Every _True_ theorist is a kind of tamed metaphysicist,
no matter how pure a positivist he may fancy himself.
[ ... He believes in ]
a conceptual system built on premises of great simplicity.
He also believed randomness was _Always_
a failure to measure some intrinsic causality. For example, he once said:
The scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation.
The future, to him, is every whit as necessary and determined as the past.
__ See Albert Einstein's The_World_As_I_See_It
StephenJayGould.ORG/ctrl/einstein_religion.html
Consequently, he felt physical processes determined absolutely everything,
including man's desires. See WikiPedia.ORG/wiki/Physicalism
For example, he once said:
I do not believe in freedom of the will. Schopenhauer's words:
Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills
accompany me in all situations throughout my life
and reconcile me with the actions of others
even if they are rather painful to me.
This awareness of the lack of freedom of will
preserves me from taking too seriously myself and my fellow men
as acting and deciding individuals and from losing my temper."
__ From a speech by Albert Einstein to the German League of Human Rights,
Berlin, in the autumn of 1932, See: EinsteinAndReligion.COM/credo.html
Driven by such a faith,
Eistein became a master at finding once hidden causalities.
For example, his General Relativity explained exactly how
a clock with 10 ^ -16 second accuracy ticks faster
with a minute increase in altitude... long before it was empirically proven.
See: Time Too Good to Be True, PhysicsToday.ORG/vol-59/iss-3/p10.html
Thanks for the above.
The new religion/philosophy of Scientific Pantheism seems to be
promoting a similar worldview.
http://www.pantheism.net/paul/beliefs.htm
I feel this is a very healthy development.
They have devoted a web page to Einstein here.
http://members.aol.com/Heraklit1/einstein.htm
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| User: "=?UTF-8?Q?Jeff=E2=80=A6Relf?=" |
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| Title: Today's theories and technologies are not the last word. |
19 Apr 2006 09:26:30 PM |
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Hi Surfer, You're most welcome, of course,
always good to see another rational thinker.
Re: Scientific Pantheism at Members.AOL.COM/Heraklit1/einstein.htm
I got the impression that they didn't understand that
while Bohr's Copenhagen_Interpretation was mute on metaphysical issues,
Einstein thought today's theories and technologies are not the last word.
If the past is any indicator, theories and technologies will improve.
For example, his General Relativity explained exactly how
a clock with 10 ^ -16 second accuracy ticks faster
with a minute increase in altitude... decades before it was empirically proven.
See: Time Too Good to Be True,
PhysicsToday.ORG/vol-59/iss-3/p10.html
As I said, Einstein postulated that the future is just as immutable as the past,
i.e. randomness can only be a failure to measure some intrinsic causality.
For example, he once said:
The scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation.
The future, to him, is every whit as necessary and determined as the
past. __ See Albert Einstein's The_World_As_I_See_It
StephenJayGould.ORG/ctrl/einstein_religion.html
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| User: "Surfer" |
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| Title: Re: Today's theories and technologies are not the last word. |
20 Apr 2006 09:16:02 AM |
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On 20 Apr 2006 02:26:30 GMT, JeffRelf <Jeff_Relf@Yahoo.COM> wrote:
Re: Scientific Pantheism at Members.AOL.COM/Heraklit1/einstein.htm
I got the impression that they didn't understand that
while Bohr's Copenhagen_Interpretation was mute on metaphysical issues,
Einstein thought today's theories and technologies are not the last word.
If the past is any indicator, theories and technologies will improve.
Thanks for that feedback.
The Decoherent Histories and Quantum State Diffusion approaches seem a
big step forward from the Copenhagen Interpretation.
So I will suggest they update the page accordingly.
Intro to Quantum State Diffusion:
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9701024
Figures in:
http://kh.bu.edu/qcl/pdf/gisin__n19971004746f.pdf
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| User: "=?UTF-8?Q?Jeff=E2=80=A6Relf?=" |
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| Title: Why wars are intrinsic to humanity. |
20 Apr 2006 11:40:39 AM |
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Hi Surfer, You told me:
The Decoherent Histories and Quantum State Diffusion approaches
seem a big step forward from the Copenhagen Interpretation.
...
Intro to Quantum State Diffusion:
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9701024
Figures in:
http://kh.bu.edu/qcl/pdf/gisin__n19971004746f.pdf
Their conclusion was: We can't tell if God plays dice or not.
That sounds like the ever-forgettable Niels Bohr to me,
i.e. making it a point to take no metaphysical stand whatsoever.
Einstein raised Instrinsic_Causality to the level of a postulate.
God does _Not_ play dice, the future is just as immutable as the past,
randomness can only be a failure to measure some intrinsic causality.
His ability to find so many once hidden causalities decades before
they were empirically proven exemplified his faith in sober-minded metaphysics.
But the word God indicates position... not the cosmos:
I'm God's prisoner, and God to my prisoners.
Computer games that employ genetic algorithms
are basically just taking the shotgun approach,
....try lots of crap and keep what works best.
Animals, humans included, tend to just consume every drop thay can,
not stopping until either there's nothing left or they themselves are eaten.
That's why wars are intrinsic to humanity.
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