Signons



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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "Timothy Golden http://www.BandTechnology.com"
Date: 02 Mar 2006 08:07:17 AM
Object: Signons
I'm not sure if anyone has a name for these things so I'm calling them
signons.
They are not quite polygons but certainly can be mapped to them.
http://bandtechnology.com/PolySigned/Lattice/Lattice.html
I remember someone claiming that there is no object that packs in a
tetrahedral lattice.
Though I don't have a formal proof I think you will see that there is
such a shape and that it exists in general for any dimension.
Please let me know if you see any errors.
Low bandwidth users: the animation is around 0.5 meg.
-Tim
.

User: "Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com"

Title: Re: Signons 24 Mar 2006 10:16:19 AM
My apologies but I have found a bug in tha data above.
The following data more accurately describes the external faces of the
signon series.
The angles you will see are the same values as in the old data.
The mistake was that the angle pair (which added up to 180 deg)
was actually the angles from the midpoint to opposing vertices.
The angle data (a1 and a2 below in degrees) are the angles from the
midpoint of each face to adjacent vertices. If the angle is greater
than 90 deg the opposite vertice angle is taken (which is 180 - a ).
So nicely enough now each face has a right angle component.
That is the major difference and works in favor of these structures
packing.
The dimensional parity behavior is nicely exposed here.
But whereas in the Mandelbrot study the linkage seemed to be p3<->p4,
p5<->p6, ...
(http://bandtechnology.com/PolySigned/Mandelbrot/MandelbrotStudy.html)
here the linkage seems to be p4<->p5, p6<->p7, ...
No product is involved in the signon construction. They are purely
symmetric structures.
Face counts are accurate also so the total number of faces is just the
sum of the breakdown.
To learn more about this construction please see:
http://bandtechnology.com/PolySigned/Lattice/Lattice.html
and
http://bandtechnology.com/PolySigned/PolySigned.html
-Tim
Analyzing P4 Signon.
--------------------------
12 faces r: 0.816497, a1: 90, a2: 90
Analyzing P5 Signon.
--------------------------
60 faces r: 0.935414, a1: 77.3956, a2: 90
Analyzing P6 Signon.
--------------------------
120 faces r: 1, a1: 71.5651, a2: 90
90 faces r: 1.09545, a1: 90, a2: 90
Analyzing P7 Signon.
--------------------------
210 faces r: 1.04083, a1: 68.1546, a2: 90
420 faces r: 1.19024, a1: 83.7731, a2: 90
Analyzing P8 Signon.
--------------------------
336 faces r: 1.06904, a1: 65.9052, a2: 90
840 faces r: 1.25357, a1: 79.975, a2: 90
560 faces r: 1.30931, a1: 90, a2: 90
Analyzing P9 Signon.
--------------------------
504 faces r: 1.08972, a1: 64.3066, a2: 90
1512 faces r: 1.29904, a1: 77.3956, a2: 90
2520 faces r: 1.39194, a1: 86.1075, a2: 90
Analyzing P10 Signon.
--------------------------
720 faces r: 1.10554, a1: 63.1108, a2: 90
2520 faces r: 1.33333, a1: 75.5225, a2: 90
5040 faces r: 1.45297, a1: 83.4132, a2: 90
3150 faces r: 1.49071, a1: 90, a2: 90
Analyzing P11 Signon.
--------------------------
990 faces r: 1.11803, a1: 62.1819, a2: 90
3960 faces r: 1.36015, a1: 74.0977, a2: 90
9240 faces r: 1.5, a1: 81.4269, a2: 90
13860 faces r: 1.56525, a1: 87.2706, a2: 90
Analyzing P12 Signon.
--------------------------
1320 faces r: 1.12815, a1: 61.4392, a2: 90
5940 faces r: 1.3817, a1: 72.9761, a2: 90
15840 faces r: 1.53741, a1: 79.8974, a2: 90
27720 faces r: 1.62369, a1: 85.2364, a2: 90
16632 faces r: 1.65145, a1: 90, a2: 90
.
User: "Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com"

Title: Re: Signons 05 Apr 2006 03:20:47 PM
The signon is a structure that falls out of polysigned numbers:
http://bandtechnology.com/PolySigned/Lattice/Lattice.html
It is closely related to the simplex.
Previously in this thread I claimed that there is a ten dimensional
pattern in the construction. This is based on a breakpoint beyond P5,
where more than one radial distance exists from the center of the
signon to it's external faces.
I withdraw that claim. Here is why:
If we include the internal faces of the structure we would see one
additional radius in the listings that I've generated. Now, as one
travels downward in sign below P4 we see one radius in P3 and a radius
in P2 as well. So the pattern of increase with parity starts at an
earlier stage, whereas before I viewed the singular radius as reaching
a breakpoint beyond P5 and inherently extending downward toward P1.
Thinking of P1 I think the best signon analysis that can be done here
is to accept that the unitary step (1) is the loop. The interpreted
radius must be zero, yet I think one might claim that a path length of
one forms the loop.
Each listing should have an additional line of faces.
The first four-sided faces are in P3.
The first internal faces are in P4.
-Tim
Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com wrote:

My apologies but I have found a bug in tha data above.
The following data more accurately describes the external faces of the
signon series.
The angles you will see are the same values as in the old data.
The mistake was that the angle pair (which added up to 180 deg)
was actually the angles from the midpoint to opposing vertices.
The angle data (a1 and a2 below in degrees) are the angles from the
midpoint of each face to adjacent vertices. If the angle is greater
than 90 deg the opposite vertice angle is taken (which is 180 - a ).
So nicely enough now each face has a right angle component.
That is the major difference and works in favor of these structures
packing.
The dimensional parity behavior is nicely exposed here.
But whereas in the Mandelbrot study the linkage seemed to be p3<->p4,
p5<->p6, ...

(http://bandtechnology.com/PolySigned/Mandelbrot/MandelbrotStudy.html)
here the linkage seems to be p4<->p5, p6<->p7, ...
No product is involved in the signon construction. They are purely
symmetric structures.
Face counts are accurate also so the total number of faces is just the
sum of the breakdown.
To learn more about this construction please see:
http://bandtechnology.com/PolySigned/Lattice/Lattice.html
and
http://bandtechnology.com/PolySigned/PolySigned.html

-Tim

Analyzing P4 Signon.
--------------------------

12 faces r: 0.816497, a1: 90, a2: 90

Analyzing P5 Signon.
--------------------------

60 faces r: 0.935414, a1: 77.3956, a2: 90

Analyzing P6 Signon.
--------------------------

120 faces r: 1, a1: 71.5651, a2: 90
90 faces r: 1.09545, a1: 90, a2: 90

Analyzing P7 Signon.
--------------------------

210 faces r: 1.04083, a1: 68.1546, a2: 90
420 faces r: 1.19024, a1: 83.7731, a2: 90

Analyzing P8 Signon.
--------------------------

336 faces r: 1.06904, a1: 65.9052, a2: 90
840 faces r: 1.25357, a1: 79.975, a2: 90
560 faces r: 1.30931, a1: 90, a2: 90

Analyzing P9 Signon.
--------------------------

504 faces r: 1.08972, a1: 64.3066, a2: 90
1512 faces r: 1.29904, a1: 77.3956, a2: 90
2520 faces r: 1.39194, a1: 86.1075, a2: 90

Analyzing P10 Signon.
--------------------------

720 faces r: 1.10554, a1: 63.1108, a2: 90
2520 faces r: 1.33333, a1: 75.5225, a2: 90
5040 faces r: 1.45297, a1: 83.4132, a2: 90
3150 faces r: 1.49071, a1: 90, a2: 90

Analyzing P11 Signon.
--------------------------

990 faces r: 1.11803, a1: 62.1819, a2: 90
3960 faces r: 1.36015, a1: 74.0977, a2: 90
9240 faces r: 1.5, a1: 81.4269, a2: 90
13860 faces r: 1.56525, a1: 87.2706, a2: 90

Analyzing P12 Signon.
--------------------------

1320 faces r: 1.12815, a1: 61.4392, a2: 90
5940 faces r: 1.3817, a1: 72.9761, a2: 90
15840 faces r: 1.53741, a1: 79.8974, a2: 90
27720 faces r: 1.62369, a1: 85.2364, a2: 90
16632 faces r: 1.65145, a1: 90, a2: 90

.


User: "Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com"

Title: Re: Signons 21 Mar 2006 08:14:21 PM
Timothy Golden http://www.BandTechnology.com wrote:

I'm not sure if anyone has a name for these things so I'm calling them
signons.
They are not quite polygons but certainly can be mapped to them.

http://bandtechnology.com/PolySigned/Lattice/Lattice.html

I remember someone claiming that there is no object that packs in a
tetrahedral lattice.
Though I don't have a formal proof I think you will see that there is
such a shape and that it exists in general for any dimension.

Please let me know if you see any errors.
Low bandwidth users: the animation is around 0.5 meg.

-Tim

I've been testing the angles to the midpoints of the external faces on
the signons.
In P4 they are all perpenendicular.
But In P5 they are not.
Each face is a plane formed by traveling in two sign directions twice.
For example in P4 (0,1,0,0), (0,1,1,0),(0,1,0,1),(0,1,1,1) are four
vertices on the exterior that form one of these faces. The midpoint of
the face is taken.
The distance to the center (0,0,0,0) is taken.
The angles formed by this radius and the vectors from the midpoint to
the vertices are taken. These are the data listed below.
In P4 the face vertices are all perpendicular to the radius( 0.816497).
In P5 The radius(0.935414) property is still there, but the angles are
not all perpendicular.
The possible values are (angles in degrees):
Angles are 77.3956, 102.604 radius: 0.935414
Angles are 90, 90 radius: 0.935414
I think there is some hope that these will still pack perfectly.
The angles add up to 180 degrees.
In P6, the radius values split into two values( min: 1 , max: 1.09545)
The possible values are:
Angles are 71.5651, 108.435 radius: 1
Angles are 90, 90 radius: 1
Angles are 90, 90 radius: 1.09545
In the P7 signon where the radii limits are (min: 1.04083 , max:
1.19024)
P7 exterior face data:
Angles are 68.1546, 111.845 radius: 1.04083
Angles are 90, 90 radius: 1.04083
Angles are 83.7731, 96.2269 radius: 1.19024
Angles are 90, 90 radius: 1.19024
In the P8 signon ( min: 1.06904, max: 1.30931 ) angles:
65.9052, 114.095
79.975, 100.025
I don't know what the splitting means or if it continues because my
algorithms take days to get P9 out. I'm sure there is much more
efficient code to do the ops needed. Also I have no counts. Due to
redundancy in the algorithm the counts would be wrong.
There are some hints of the parity concept here but not enough to
declare anything.
It would be great to get some verification on these figures.
These figures are built from the simplex but extend it as a coordinate
system.
These shapes are the set of all unit loops from the origin ( stepping
by one lattice position at a time) Because the system is unidirectional
the network of points in the signon has structure.
I hope someone who has worked with string theory will take interest in
this data.
The geometry here is natural.
The polysigned numbers offer a natural and sensible breakpoint at the
dimensional level of spacetime. They have an exact time correspondence
in the one-signed numbers.
Now this study shows that they have another breakpoint at ten
dimensions.
The 10D structure is:
P1 x P2 x P3 x P4 x P5
0 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10
time is included in the format but does not represent a dimension in
the usual sense. It is the zero at the front of the sum above.
(Pn is n-1 dimensional)
-Tim
.

User: "tadchem"

Title: Re: Signons 02 Mar 2006 06:30:39 PM
Timothy Golden http://www.BandTechnology.com wrote:

I'm not sure if anyone has a name for these things so I'm calling them
signons.
They are not quite polygons but certainly can be mapped to them.

http://bandtechnology.com/PolySigned/Lattice/Lattice.html

Your "P4 signon" is also called a "rhombic dodecahedron".
http://images.google.com/images?&num=20&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&lr=&as_ft=i&as_qdr=all&as_dt=i&as_rights=&safe=off&sa=N&tab=wi&q=%22rhombic%20dodecahedron%22
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhombic_dodecahedron
They pack together to fill space in an arrangement called a
"face-centered cubic" packing.

I remember someone claiming that there is no object that packs in a
tetrahedral lattice.

The claim is that a tetrahedron *alone* cannot pack in a lattice.
In combination with an octahedron, two tetrahedrons of the same scale
create a polyhedron which *can* pack to fill space.

Though I don't have a formal proof I think you will see that there is
such a shape and that it exists in general for any dimension.

You need to work on your math skills, especially analytical geometry,
if you wish to play with these shapes. There has been a tremendous
amount of work done with geometrical shapes since Plato (?) first
described the 5 "platonic" solids.
[I don't know why Plato is given the credit, because this is the type
of work the Pythagoreans would have excelled in.]
Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
.
User: "LuckyOne"

Title: Re: Signons 17 Mar 2006 05:28:27 PM
The Pythagoreans are given credit. Check "Journey Through Genius" by
Dunham. When the Pythagoreans discovered the fifth perfect solid, it
upset the fig cart: Four perfect solids represents the four elements
as they saw them - earth, wind, fire and water. So the Pythagoreans
hid the find for a long time.
.

User: "Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com"

Title: Re: Signons 17 Mar 2006 02:35:10 PM
There is a ten dimensional pattern in the tatrix.

Your "P4 signon" is also called a "rhombic dodecahedron".
Tom Davidson

The rhombic dodecahodron is claimed to fit a sphere within it that is
tangent to every face at their midpoints. I've verified this and the
radius that I get for the P4 signon is 0.816497 using the unit step
method as descibed at
http://bandtechnology.com/PolySigned/Lattice/Lattice.html
The P5 signon also maintains the spherical property with a radius of
0.935414.
However, the P6 signon breaks the pattern.
Examples of the coordinates that break P6 are:
[ P6 1, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0 ] <-> [ P6 1, 1, 1, 0, 1, 1 ] (radius 1.00000)
[ P6 1, 1, 0, 0, 1, 1 ] <-> [ P6 1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1 ] (radius 1.00000)
and
[ P6 0, 0, 1, 1, 0, 0 ] <-> [ P6 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1 ] (radius 1.09545)
[ P6 0, 0, 1, 1, 0, 1 ] <-> [ P6 0, 0, 1, 0, 1, 1 ] (radius 1.09545)
The code takes the midpoint of these coordinate pairs and takes the
magnitude.
The midpoint is the center of a face.
P7 is broken also with min 1.04083 and max 1.19024
This is interesting because it suggests a breakpoint in the tatrix
format which is just:
P1 x P2 x P3 x P4 ...
which also has a representation like:
a11
a21 a22
a31 a32 a33
....
Eliminating P6 and beyond yields a ten dimensional configuration of a
tatrix that I call T5.
I have not proven that the P5 signon packs properly or that the P6
signon does not.
The radius information is anecdotal.
I suppose if I verify that the planes are normal to the radial that
would help.
I could use some advice on a packing checking algorithm.
Thanks in advance for any advice or feedback.
-Tim
.
User: "Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com"

Title: Re: Signons 12 Apr 2006 12:18:07 PM

I could use some advice on a packing checking algorithm.
-Tim

I've developed a methodology for finding adjacent signa (plural of
signon).
It is showing that P5 signa do not pack exclusively.
For an introduction to the signon( requiring polysigned numbers) please
see:
http://bandtechnology.com/PolySigned/Lattice/Lattice.html
It is easy to place signa within a lattice, but to find the ones that
pack is less easy.
For example in any lattice it is clear that another signon exists two
units away in any sign orientation that will touch at a vertice:
A signon centered at [| 2, 0, ... ]
will touch one centered at [ 0, 0, ... ] at [| 1, 0, 0, ... ] .
The notation [| x, y, z ] indicates a general solution that includes
ordered permutations.
This means that [| x, y, z ] could mean:
[ x, y, z ],
[ y, x, z ],
[ z, y, x ],
[ x, z, y ],
[ y, z, x ],
[ z, x, y ] .
The ordering is maintained in a context so in the concrete example
above a signon centered at [ 2, 0, 0 ] would touch the [ 0, 0, 0 ]
signon at [ 1, 0, 0 ] .
Like wise [ 0, 2, 0 ] touches [ 0, 0, 0 ] at [ 0, 1, 0 ] .
This I think is a complete and noncryptic definition of the notation [|
x, y, z ] .
Now it is immediately apparent that this set of signa do not pack:
http://bandtechnology.com/PolySigned/Lattice/P3Lattice.png
There will be triangles in between them that are not covered.
Instead we need to choose signa at [| 2, 1, 0 ] .
These will pack perfectly.
Stepping up to P4 we see that we will need to find a matching signon
for each external face. A face can be expressed using the following
notation:
[ v, v, 1, 0 ] .
Here the v's imply a variable coordinate which can be either 0 or 1.
Hence the above notation expands out to:
[ 0, 0, 1, 0 ], [ 1, 0, 1, 0 ], [ 0, 1, 1, 0 ], [ 1, 1, 1, 0 ]
which is an external face of the signon centered at [ 0, 0, 0, 0 ].
In fact the expression
[| v, v, 1, 0 ]
represents all of the external faces since
[| v, v, 0, 0 ] and [| v, v, 1, 1 ]
are internal faces.
We can express the external faces of the signon centered at [ a, b, c,
d ] as:
[ a, b, c, d ] + [| v, v, 1, 0 ] .
We would like to show that these faces each correspond to one other
signon.
Thus the expression:
[| 0, 0, 0, 0 ] + [| v, v, 1, 0 ] = [| 1, 1, 2, 0 ] + [| v, v, 0, 1
]
is reached. The permutable nature is enforced accross each instance so
that they are all in synch. So if we use
[ 0, 0, 0, 0 ] + [ 1, 0, v, v ]
on the left we must use
[ 2, 0, 1, 1 ] + [ 0, 1, v, v ]
on the right.
This is the P4 signon we are studying and it is known to match the
rhombic dodecahedron which is already known to pack.
But we can test this by stepping arbitrarily many times to facially
adjacent signa:
[ 0, 0, 0, 0 ] + [ 1, 1, 2, 0 ] + [ 1, 2, 1, 0 ] + [ 1, 0, 1, 2 ] +
[ 1, 1, 2, 0 ] .
No matter what combinations one should never land a center at a face.
That would prove that these signa did not pack. This is the method that
I can use to demonstrate that P5 signa do not exclusively pack.
The P5 signon exists in four dimensions.
Here is an animated image projected down to two dimensions:
http://bandtechnology.com/PolySigned/Lattice/P5Signon.gif
In P5 the external faces take on two forms:
[| 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 ] + [| v, v, 1, 0, 0 ] = [| 1, 1, 2, 0, 0 ] + [| v,
v, 0, 1, 1 ]
and
[| 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 ] + [| v, v, 1, 1, 0 ] = [| 1, 1, 2, 2, 0 ] + [| v,
v, 0, 0, 1 ] .
Starting from the originating signon S0 I can move to [ 1, 1, 2, 0, 0 ]
(S1) .
from S1 I can move by [ 1, 0, 1, 2, 2 ] to [ 1, 0, 2, 1, 1 ] (S3).

From S3 I can move by [ 0, 2, 0, 1, 1 ] to [ 0, 1, 1, 1, 1 ] (S4).

But S4 is centered at a face vertice of S0.
So the argument that P5 signa do not pack perfectly is made.
It is quite a maze of signa.
Is the concept of internal and external faces flawed?
I've been sitting on this for awhile and don't think I can get much
further with it.
If it is true then P5 breaks a natural progression in terms of perfect
packing.
Every level has these embedded nonexclusive signa beyond P2 but P5 is
the first to allow such a transition to them via the face rules layed
out here.
-Tim
.
User: "Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com"

Title: Re: Signons 14 Apr 2006 11:36:48 AM
Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com wrote:

I could use some advice on a packing checking algorithm.
-Tim


I've developed a methodology for finding adjacent signa (plural of
signon).
It is showing that P5 signa do not pack exclusively.
For an introduction to the signon( requiring polysigned numbers) please
see:
http://bandtechnology.com/PolySigned/Lattice/Lattice.html
It is easy to place signa within a lattice, but to find the ones that
pack is less easy.
For example in any lattice it is clear that another signon exists two
units away in any sign orientation that will touch at a vertice:
A signon centered at [| 2, 0, ... ]
will touch one centered at [ 0, 0, ... ] at [| 1, 0, 0, ... ] .
The notation [| x, y, z ] indicates a general solution that includes
ordered permutations.
This means that [| x, y, z ] could mean:
[ x, y, z ],
[ y, x, z ],
[ z, y, x ],
[ x, z, y ],
[ y, z, x ],
[ z, x, y ] .
The ordering is maintained in a context so in the concrete example
above a signon centered at [ 2, 0, 0 ] would touch the [ 0, 0, 0 ]
signon at [ 1, 0, 0 ] .
Like wise [ 0, 2, 0 ] touches [ 0, 0, 0 ] at [ 0, 1, 0 ] .
This I think is a complete and noncryptic definition of the notation [|
x, y, z ] .
Now it is immediately apparent that this set of signa do not pack:
http://bandtechnology.com/PolySigned/Lattice/P3Lattice.png
There will be triangles in between them that are not covered.
Instead we need to choose signa at [| 2, 1, 0 ] .
These will pack perfectly.
Stepping up to P4 we see that we will need to find a matching signon
for each external face. A face can be expressed using the following
notation:
[ v, v, 1, 0 ] .
Here the v's imply a variable coordinate which can be either 0 or 1.
Hence the above notation expands out to:
[ 0, 0, 1, 0 ], [ 1, 0, 1, 0 ], [ 0, 1, 1, 0 ], [ 1, 1, 1, 0 ]
which is an external face of the signon centered at [ 0, 0, 0, 0 ].
In fact the expression
[| v, v, 1, 0 ]
represents all of the external faces since
[| v, v, 0, 0 ] and [| v, v, 1, 1 ]
are internal faces.
We can express the external faces of the signon centered at [ a, b, c,
d ] as:
[ a, b, c, d ] + [| v, v, 1, 0 ] .
We would like to show that these faces each correspond to one other
signon.
Thus the expression:
[| 0, 0, 0, 0 ] + [| v, v, 1, 0 ] = [| 1, 1, 2, 0 ] + [| v, v, 0, 1
]
is reached. The permutable nature is enforced accross each instance so
that they are all in synch. So if we use
[ 0, 0, 0, 0 ] + [ 1, 0, v, v ]
on the left we must use
[ 2, 0, 1, 1 ] + [ 0, 1, v, v ]
on the right.
This is the P4 signon we are studying and it is known to match the
rhombic dodecahedron which is already known to pack.
But we can test this by stepping arbitrarily many times to facially
adjacent signa:
[ 0, 0, 0, 0 ] + [ 1, 1, 2, 0 ] + [ 1, 2, 1, 0 ] + [ 1, 0, 1, 2 ] +
[ 1, 1, 2, 0 ] .
No matter what combinations one should never land a center at a face.
That would prove that these signa did not pack. This is the method that
I can use to demonstrate that P5 signa do not exclusively pack.
The P5 signon exists in four dimensions.
Here is an animated image projected down to two dimensions:
http://bandtechnology.com/PolySigned/Lattice/P5Signon.gif
In P5 the external faces take on two forms:
[| 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 ] + [| v, v, 1, 0, 0 ] = [| 1, 1, 2, 0, 0 ] + [| v,
v, 0, 1, 1 ]
and
[| 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 ] + [| v, v, 1, 1, 0 ] = [| 1, 1, 2, 2, 0 ] + [| v,
v, 0, 0, 1 ] .
Starting from the originating signon S0 I can move to [ 1, 1, 2, 0, 0 ]
(S1) .
from S1 I can move by [ 1, 0, 1, 2, 2 ] to [ 1, 0, 2, 1, 1 ] (S3).

From S3 I can move by [ 0, 2, 0, 1, 1 ] to [ 0, 1, 1, 1, 1 ] (S4).

But S4 is centered at a face vertice of S0.
So the argument that P5 signa do not pack perfectly is made.
It is quite a maze of signa.
Is the concept of internal and external faces flawed?

Yes. The reliance on faces is flawed in this analysis.
Had I simply looked at the progression and held it this contradiction
would not have happened.
In P2 each segment connects to two other segments at a point.
In P3 each area connects to six others by segments.
In P4 each volume connects to 12 others by area.
P5 does not rely on area for its adjacents. It relies on volume.
So the general solution for the P5 signon adjacents should be:
[|0,0,0,0,0]+[|v,v,v,1,0]=[|1,1,1,2,0]+[|v,v,v,0,1].
So now at each sign level n we see there are
n (n-1)
adjacents whose relative positions can be stated as:
[|0,2,1,1,...].
Still there is no complete proof here but by construction it looks much
better.

I've been sitting on this for awhile and don't think I can get much
further with it.
If it is true then P5 breaks a natural progression in terms of perfect
packing.

Since it is not true there is no progressional break here.

Every level has these embedded nonexclusive signa beyond P2 but P5 is
the first to allow such a transition to them via the face rules layed
out here.

These other signa are still present, they just are not the ones that
will pack perfectly.
-Tim
.



User: "Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com"

Title: Re: Signons 03 Mar 2006 10:38:56 AM
tadchem wrote:

Your "P4 signon" is also called a "rhombic dodecahedron".
They pack together to fill space in an arrangement called a
"face-centered cubic" packing.
You need to work on your math skills, especially analytical geometry,
if you wish to play with these shapes. There has been a tremendous
amount of work done with geometrical shapes since Plato (?) first
described the 5 "platonic" solids.

Thanks very much for the feedback.
I've been pondering how to verify the packing especially in higher
dimensions.
I've read your references and then some.
Also I've found the shape generated via tetrahedral coordinates at
http://www.grunch.net/synergetics/quadrays.html
Also the relationship to the sphere is of interest.
-Tim
.



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