| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Dr. V I Plankenstein" |
| Date: |
14 Mar 2007 12:24:34 AM |
| Object: |
Some economics - |
I've been very interested in the relationship between competition and
cooperation in economics. Anybody know if there are any landmark works in
this area ?
Specifically,
You have a group of people who must perform some input to recieve some type
of payoff. If people pull together and cooperate they can probably get more
work done, but they must trust others that the payoff will be shared
equally. If your ego is greater than this level of trust, then one might
think that one can personally gain a greater share by competing against
others instead of cooperating with them.
I've got an idea for a self replicating "viral" business model. The basic
idea is that you can design a business in such a way that it must replicate
and spawn new businesses. Basically, this draws on some fundamental
differences between some biological models which behave similarly. Consider
competition among salmon versus bacterial growth models. These are two
fundamentally different modes of replication. Granted - bacteria are no
really cooperative, but ants and bees and other social lifeeforms are indeed
cooperative.
The question -
Can you balance cooperative and competitive forces in a business so that it
does'nt decay into either communism on the one hand or mass greed on the
other ? Can you find an equilibrium between competition and cooperation ?
Does anyone here know of any work like that ?
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
14 Mar 2007 10:16:56 AM |
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"Dr. V I Plankenstein" wrote:
I've been very interested in the relationship between competition and
cooperation in economics. Anybody know if there are any landmark works in
this area ?
Prisoners' dilemma, tragedy of the commons.
Specifically,
You have a group of people who must perform some input to recieve some type
of payoff. If people pull together and cooperate they can probably get more
work done, but they must trust others that the payoff will be shared
equally. If your ego is greater than this level of trust, then one might
think that one can personally gain a greater share by competing against
others instead of cooperating with them.
Prisoners' dilemma, tragedy of the commons.
I've got an idea for a self replicating "viral" business model.
[snip]
Economics is a poorly configured heuristic. It denies recursion for
simplicity and therefore cannot be operationally valid. If your enemy
can be killed, why negotiate?
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
.
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| User: "boson boss" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
14 Mar 2007 10:33:14 AM |
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On Mar 14, 4:16 pm, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote:
"Dr. V I Plankenstein" wrote:
I've been very interested in the relationship between competition and
cooperation in economics. Anybody know if there are any landmark works in
this area ?
Prisoners' dilemma, tragedy of the commons.
Specifically,
You have a group of people who must perform some input to recieve some type
of payoff. If people pull together and cooperate they can probably get more
work done, but they must trust others that the payoff will be shared
equally. If your ego is greater than this level of trust, then one might
think that one can personally gain a greater share by competing against
others instead of cooperating with them.
Prisoners' dilemma, tragedy of the commons.
I've got an idea for a self replicating "viral" business model.
[snip]
Economics is a poorly configured heuristic. It denies recursion for
simplicity and therefore cannot be operationally valid. If your enemy
can be killed, why negotiate?
--
Uncle Alhttp://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
Funny funny. How about engineering economy, If We See It, We'll take
It Apart. This is space! And spring in March relatively by a million
or so.
.
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| User: "Dr. V I Plankenstein" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
14 Mar 2007 08:47:16 PM |
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Dr. V I Plankenstein <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
I've been very interested in the relationship between competition and
cooperation in economics. Anybody know if there are any landmark works
in
this area ?
Why are you posting this in sci.physics instead of sci.econ?
I thought that someone in here might know more than the average idiot
economist. I want to design a business which replicates like a prion. Like
DNA. It divides and replicates like a virus. I think that I have some ideas
which would make it work. It's part of my strategy to rescue the American
economy from oblivion due to massive, pervasive and all consuming idiocy.
The idea is that an economy which is purely competitive is lacking in
economic diversity. You need some businesses which are run differently which
inject some cooperation into the mix, and you would expect an economy which
is more robust because monocultures are scary.
Well, I found some stuff on "collusion" in game theory, "A Theory of
Efficient Cooperation and Competition" by Lester G. Telser, University of
Chicago. I'll have to take a look at it, but I think that the word
"cooperation" is so politically charged that nobody has done very much in
this area. Probably for fear of being labelled a commie or a union
sympathizer. I hope that I'm wrong about that.
Anyway - I think that diversity would be as important to an economy as it
would be to an ecosystem. Biological modelling and economic modelling are
nothing but a bunch of math - it's all the same when you abstract it. So - a
"viral business model", if released on society, might concievable function
toward solving poverty and some other kinds of social problems.
An ecosystem which contains only apex predators is unsustainable, and so is
an economy. That is my point. So, I have devised the virus. It would work
like a computer virus, the only difference being that it is an economic
entity. Economic diversity is more than being able to choose from 1,000
different brands of toilet paper. You also need a diversity of different
kinds of workplaces where money can be earned, where you sell your labor.
That is where we need to diversify (in the US).
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
14 Mar 2007 09:25:02 PM |
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Dr. V I Plankenstein <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
Dr. V I Plankenstein <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
I've been very interested in the relationship between competition and
cooperation in economics. Anybody know if there are any landmark works
in
this area ?
Why are you posting this in sci.physics instead of sci.econ?
I thought that someone in here might know more than the average idiot
economist.
So you think someone who has studied physics knows more about economics
than someone who has studied economics?
I suppose you post to rec.motorcycles to find cookie recipes and
sci.materials to get gardening advice.
<remaining babble>
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply.
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| User: "Dr. V I Plankenstein" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
14 Mar 2007 10:14:52 PM |
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<jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message
news:sqmmc4-j44.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Dr. V I Plankenstein <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
Dr. V I Plankenstein <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
I've been very interested in the relationship between competition
and
cooperation in economics. Anybody know if there are any landmark
works
in
this area ?
Why are you posting this in sci.physics instead of sci.econ?
I thought that someone in here might know more than the average idiot
economist.
So you think someone who has studied physics knows more about economics
than someone who has studied economics?
Yes. I do.
I suppose you post to rec.motorcycles to find cookie recipes and
sci.materials to get gardening advice.
The central idea is replication. I am desiging a VIRUS "dude"...... Have you
ever heard ignorant economists talking about doing things like that ? Well ?
Have ya ? No. Why ? Because they are a bunch of baby boomers who dont know
squat about gen-x, warez, hacking, R.E.M., Viruses, or fisting !!! YEAH
!!!!! THEY DONT KNOW CRAP about econ with their damn prime rates and their
f'ing adjustable mortgages.
Are you guys really that lacking in imagination ? Let me ask you something -
Where the hell did the middle class go Mr Smartypants? Is the middle class
vacationing somewhere ? Maybe 80 million people all flew to Rio ?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
14 Mar 2007 11:15:02 PM |
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Dr. V I Plankenstein <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
<jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message
news:sqmmc4-j44.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Dr. V I Plankenstein <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
Dr. V I Plankenstein <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
I've been very interested in the relationship between competition
and
cooperation in economics. Anybody know if there are any landmark
works
in
this area ?
Why are you posting this in sci.physics instead of sci.econ?
I thought that someone in here might know more than the average idiot
economist.
So you think someone who has studied physics knows more about economics
than someone who has studied economics?
Yes. I do.
Telling.
I suppose you post to rec.motorcycles to find cookie recipes and
sci.materials to get gardening advice.
The central idea is replication. I am desiging a VIRUS "dude"...... Have you
ever heard ignorant economists talking about doing things like that ? Well ?
No, just juvenile twits.
<snip babbling nonsense>
*PLONK*
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
15 Mar 2007 10:54:30 PM |
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Dr. V I Plankenstein wrote:
<jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message
news:sqmmc4-j44.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Dr. V I Plankenstein <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
Dr. V I Plankenstein <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
I've been very interested in the relationship between competition
and
cooperation in economics. Anybody know if there are any landmark
works
in
this area ?
Why are you posting this in sci.physics instead of sci.econ?
I thought that someone in here might know more than the average idiot
economist.
So you think someone who has studied physics knows more about economics
than someone who has studied economics?
Yes. I do.
I suppose you post to rec.motorcycles to find cookie recipes and
sci.materials to get gardening advice.
The central idea is replication. I am desiging a VIRUS "dude"...... Have you
ever heard ignorant economists talking about doing things like that ? Well ?
Have ya ? No. Why ? Because they are a bunch of baby boomers who dont know
squat about gen-x, warez, hacking, R.E.M., Viruses, or fisting !!! YEAH
!!!!! THEY DONT KNOW CRAP about econ with their damn prime rates and their
f'ing adjustable mortgages.
Are you guys really that lacking in imagination ? Let me ask you something -
Where the hell did the middle class go Mr Smartypants? Is the middle class
vacationing somewhere ? Maybe 80 million people all flew to Rio ?
If you don't understand this then you're unqualified to
consider this issue.
If you do understand this, then you should know better
than to meddle with it.
.
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| User: "Dr. V I Plankenstein" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
16 Mar 2007 12:33:18 AM |
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<nonsense@unsettled.com> wrote in message
news:9f82c$45fa06de$49ecf08$8536@DIALUPUSA.NET...
Dr. V I Plankenstein wrote:
<jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message
news:sqmmc4-j44.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Dr. V I Plankenstein <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
Dr. V I Plankenstein <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
I've been very interested in the relationship between competition
and
cooperation in economics. Anybody know if there are any landmark
works
in
this area ?
Why are you posting this in sci.physics instead of sci.econ?
I thought that someone in here might know more than the average idiot
economist.
So you think someone who has studied physics knows more about economics
than someone who has studied economics?
Yes. I do.
I suppose you post to rec.motorcycles to find cookie recipes and
sci.materials to get gardening advice.
The central idea is replication. I am desiging a VIRUS "dude"...... Have
you
ever heard ignorant economists talking about doing things like that ?
Well ?
Have ya ? No. Why ? Because they are a bunch of baby boomers who dont
know
squat about gen-x, warez, hacking, R.E.M., Viruses, or fisting !!! YEAH
!!!!! THEY DONT KNOW CRAP about econ with their damn prime rates and
their
f'ing adjustable mortgages.
Are you guys really that lacking in imagination ? Let me ask you
something -
Where the hell did the middle class go Mr Smartypants? Is the middle
class
vacationing somewhere ? Maybe 80 million people all flew to Rio ?
If you don't understand this then you're unqualified to
consider this issue.
If you do understand this, then you should know better
than to meddle with it.
In my opinion that is incorrect.
Viruses are not neccesarily destructive. Life on Earth would cease to exist
were it not for microbes. When the entire US economy can be described by 3
remaining companies, McDonald's Walmart and Microsoft, then our collective
prosperity will fry like a beached whale. We cant let that happen.
Here's the code for a sample virus
1) You start an arbitrary business.
2) A portion of the profits are diverted into a lottery-like fund which is
periodically given away to a random employee.
3) By law, the proceeds of the winings must be used to create a new business
which is required to structure itself the same as it's parent.
4) Money is given away and the parent business repeats the cycle.
5) These special businesses will then struggle to fill up their lottery fund
so that they can have more and more drawings thereby virtually eliminating
poverty.
This is a skeletonized model which needs a few more bells and whistles, but
that's the general idea. There is a lot of leeway for tweaking things, and I
do not believe that this model could ever devour the entire economy. I
believe that it is self limiting because businesses do fail all the time.
I dont know why, but people seem to love the lottery. They also hate debt,
and doubt. So, getting a lump sum via lottery would incent people to go into
business, or embolden them to borrow larger amounts for medium sized
projects. And, I do not know why the lottery has so much magic power over
people, but by incorporating it into the structure of the workplace you can
use that as a goal toward which people can work cooperatively.
The problem is that while there is such a thing as cut-throat competition,
there is also such a thing as cut-throat cooperation. Most people wont say
it this way but the problem with communism and socialism is that you wind
up with this "cut-throat cooperation" phenomena.
If this resulted in "cut-throat cooperation", then it would simply fail and
we'll modify the code and try something else.
No guts, no glory.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
15 Mar 2007 06:12:17 AM |
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In article <5cqdnY1uj40GJmXYnZ2dnUVZ_vWtnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Dr. V I Plankenstein" <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
<snip>
The central idea is replication. I am desiging a VIRUS "dude"...... Have you
ever heard ignorant economists talking about doing things like that ?
Yes, I have. They aren't ignorant economists but extremely smart
people.
You are asking in the wrong newsgroup.
/BAH
.
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| User: "Dr. V I Plankenstein" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
15 Mar 2007 07:42:00 AM |
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The central idea is replication. I am desiging a VIRUS "dude"...... Have
you
ever heard ignorant economists talking about doing things like that ?
Yes, I have. They aren't ignorant economists but extremely smart
people.
You are asking in the wrong newsgroup.
/BAH
I'll repost later to sci.econ.
I think that I have a viral model which would work very well, would force a
mixed mentality of cooperation/competition, would replicate, and would
function as an autonomous, profitable business.
In my opinion, no such models currently exist. I'll go looking.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
15 Mar 2007 10:56:30 PM |
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Dr. V I Plankenstein wrote:
The central idea is replication. I am desiging a VIRUS "dude"...... Have
you
ever heard ignorant economists talking about doing things like that ?
Yes, I have. They aren't ignorant economists but extremely smart
people.
You are asking in the wrong newsgroup.
/BAH
I'll repost later to sci.econ.
I think that I have a viral model which would work very well, would force a
mixed mentality of cooperation/competition, would replicate, and would
function as an autonomous, profitable business.
In my opinion, no such models currently exist. I'll go looking.
Learn about Venn diagrams first.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
16 Mar 2007 05:48:40 AM |
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In article <fISdneKCwowY3WTYnZ2dnUVZ_ternZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Dr. V I Plankenstein" <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
The central idea is replication. I am desiging a VIRUS "dude"...... Have
you
ever heard ignorant economists talking about doing things like that ?
Yes, I have. They aren't ignorant economists but extremely smart
people.
You are asking in the wrong newsgroup.
/BAH
I'll repost later to sci.econ.
I think that I have a viral model which would work very well, would force a
mixed mentality of cooperation/competition, would replicate, and would
function as an autonomous, profitable business.
In my opinion, no such models currently exist. I'll go looking.
Test it.
/BAH
.
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| User: "Dr. V I Plankenstein" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
16 Mar 2007 07:54:04 AM |
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<jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message
news:etdsm8$8ss_001@s986.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com...
In article <fISdneKCwowY3WTYnZ2dnUVZ_ternZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Dr. V I Plankenstein" <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
The central idea is replication. I am desiging a VIRUS "dude"......
Have
you
ever heard ignorant economists talking about doing things like that ?
Yes, I have. They aren't ignorant economists but extremely smart
people.
You are asking in the wrong newsgroup.
/BAH
I'll repost later to sci.econ.
I think that I have a viral model which would work very well, would force
a
mixed mentality of cooperation/competition, would replicate, and would
function as an autonomous, profitable business.
In my opinion, no such models currently exist. I'll go looking.
Test it.
/BAH
I'd like to. Just to clarify, I'm NOT advocating any Marxist crap or any
derivatives of that, just some minor tweaking of existing capitalistic
processes.
In an economy where CEO's are raiding their own employees pensions (as in
Enron), and other's are giving themselves really obscene severances packages
(like Exxon and many others), if we dont do something to control the greed
I'll gurantee you that we'll all be standing in a bread line just like our
pals in the evil empire.
I think that you're right. It should be tested. Basically, we need to
~"RELEASE THE VIRUS"~. I have some ideas for a couple different
prototype businesses that would make good starter, I wonder what would
happen if I went out and rounded up 10 people who are trapped in the ghetto
and got them started working like this ? What might happen ?
I think that you could make it work - even if you had to externalize the
accounting dept to a subcontractor to keep them honest.
People will work hard and spend all their money on a CHANCE like a lottery
ticket, they do crazy things like that, I dont know why they do it but they
do. Somehow, you incorporate this into their workday and you will have a
whole new paradigm, and you can probably modulate the level of "cut throat
cooperation" by limiting maximum payouts, or some other things. Obviously,
you dont want to have runaway "cutthroat cooperation". All you can do is
test it and see what happens.
I think that I just might ~"RELEASE THE VIRUS"~. : )
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
16 Mar 2007 08:09:46 AM |
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In article <y9qdnY6MYoNCCWfYnZ2dnUVZ_sapnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Dr. V I Plankenstein" <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
<jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message
news:etdsm8$8ss_001@s986.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com...
In article <fISdneKCwowY3WTYnZ2dnUVZ_ternZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Dr. V I Plankenstein" <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
The central idea is replication. I am desiging a VIRUS "dude"......
Have
you
ever heard ignorant economists talking about doing things like that ?
Yes, I have. They aren't ignorant economists but extremely smart
people.
You are asking in the wrong newsgroup.
/BAH
I'll repost later to sci.econ.
I think that I have a viral model which would work very well, would force
a
mixed mentality of cooperation/competition, would replicate, and would
function as an autonomous, profitable business.
In my opinion, no such models currently exist. I'll go looking.
Test it.
/BAH
I'd like to.
Start a business and use your model. Try to make something useful
and then see how long you stay out of bankruptcy (or worse)
courts.
Just to clarify, I'm NOT advocating any Marxist crap or any
derivatives of that,
You are advocating this.
just some minor tweaking of existing capitalistic
processes.
In an economy where CEO's are raiding their own employees pensions (as in
Enron),
That isn't a result of any economy; that is a result of Congress
increasing regulating the infrastructure but calling it degregulation
just to fool people who think like you do.
and other's are giving themselves really obscene severances packages
(like Exxon and many others), if we dont do something to control the greed
I'll gurantee you that we'll all be standing in a bread line just like our
pals in the evil empire.
All of your jealousies were created by trying to control greed.
How do think the tax and accounting legal loopholes were created?
I think that you're right. It should be tested. Basically, we need to
~"RELEASE THE VIRUS"~.
I suggest that you use yourself as the first test subject.
I have some ideas for a couple different
prototype businesses that would make good starter, I wonder what would
happen if I went out and rounded up 10 people who are trapped in the ghetto
and got them started working like this ? What might happen ?
So you are willing to use the lower classes of society to do
your work and be the subjects of your testing. That is very
similar to Lenin's attitudes.
I think that you could make it work - even if you had to externalize the
accounting dept to a subcontractor to keep them honest.
People will work hard and spend all their money on a CHANCE like a lottery
ticket, they do crazy things like that, I dont know why they do it but they
do. Somehow, you incorporate this into their workday and you will have a
whole new paradigm, and you can probably modulate the level of "cut throat
cooperation" by limiting maximum payouts, or some other things. Obviously,
you dont want to have runaway "cutthroat cooperation". All you can do is
test it and see what happens.
It was tested. Millions were allowed to die or killed outright.
The system stayed corrupt and the rate of wealth created was very
low.
I think that I just might ~"RELEASE THE VIRUS"~. : )
Your threat will be noticed. You are not being cute; you
are being viscious.
/BAH
.
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| User: "Dr. V I Plankenstein" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
16 Mar 2007 08:33:03 PM |
|
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<jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ete4uq$8qk_001@s986.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com...
In article <y9qdnY6MYoNCCWfYnZ2dnUVZ_sapnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Dr. V I Plankenstein" <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
<jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message
news:etdsm8$8ss_001@s986.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com...
In article <fISdneKCwowY3WTYnZ2dnUVZ_ternZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Dr. V I Plankenstein" <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
The central idea is replication. I am desiging a VIRUS "dude"......
Have
you
ever heard ignorant economists talking about doing things like that
?
Yes, I have. They aren't ignorant economists but extremely smart
people.
You are asking in the wrong newsgroup.
/BAH
I'll repost later to sci.econ.
I think that I have a viral model which would work very well, would
force
a
mixed mentality of cooperation/competition, would replicate, and would
function as an autonomous, profitable business.
In my opinion, no such models currently exist. I'll go looking.
Test it.
/BAH
I'd like to.
Start a business and use your model. Try to make something useful
and then see how long you stay out of bankruptcy (or worse)
courts.
I'll be there in a couple weeks anyway. Who cares.
Just to clarify, I'm NOT advocating any Marxist crap or any
derivatives of that,
You are advocating this.
just some minor tweaking of existing capitalistic
processes.
In an economy where CEO's are raiding their own employees pensions (as in
Enron),
That isn't a result of any economy; that is a result of Congress
increasing regulating the infrastructure but calling it degregulation
just to fool people who think like you do.
That is the result of apex predation, big sharks eating up the little
minnows. Competition is "good". Predation is always "good" I suppose.
and other's are giving themselves really obscene severances packages
(like Exxon and many others), if we dont do something to control the
greed
I'll gurantee you that we'll all be standing in a bread line just like
our
pals in the evil empire.
All of your jealousies were created by trying to control greed.
How do think the tax and accounting legal loopholes were created?
I think that you're right. It should be tested. Basically, we need to
~"RELEASE THE VIRUS"~.
I suggest that you use yourself as the first test subject.
I inted to. Did you read the sample code I posted ? If I started a business
like that there really is'nt anything that anyone could do to stop you, and
why would they want to anyway ? You would be creating a massive number of
jobs and economic prosperity.
I have some ideas for a couple different
prototype businesses that would make good starter, I wonder what would
happen if I went out and rounded up 10 people who are trapped in the
ghetto
and got them started working like this ? What might happen ?
So you are willing to use the lower classes of society to do
your work and be the subjects of your testing. That is very
similar to Lenin's attitudes.
You live in a society with 2.5 million people in prison and complain at me
for trying to devise a viral job creation strategy ?
Now tell me, exactly who is doing the experimenting upon whom ?
I think that you could make it work - even if you had to externalize the
accounting dept to a subcontractor to keep them honest.
People will work hard and spend all their money on a CHANCE like a
lottery
ticket, they do crazy things like that, I dont know why they do it but
they
do. Somehow, you incorporate this into their workday and you will have a
whole new paradigm, and you can probably modulate the level of "cut
throat
cooperation" by limiting maximum payouts, or some other things.
Obviously,
you dont want to have runaway "cutthroat cooperation". All you can do is
test it and see what happens.
It was tested. Millions were allowed to die or killed outright.
The system stayed corrupt and the rate of wealth created was very
low.
I think that I just might ~"RELEASE THE VIRUS"~. : )
Your threat will be noticed. You are not being cute; you
are being viscious.
/BAH
That's really funny. I poke a little fun because my premise for economic
stimulous is loosely based on a biological growth models, and you think that
this is a threat ? Just because I call it a virus ? That is ridiculous.
If I started up a business which was designed specifically to replicate
itself there is not a goddamned thing anyone could, or should do about it.
In fact, if the idea works you should be on your knees kissing my ***** in
gratitude for saving your plebian ***** from your own hyperfarsical folly.
What I am proposing is not a crime and I dont give a *****. I shall do as I
please because my elected representatives are all a bunch of moronic sissies
who are interested only in their own wallets. I have better ideas than they
do, and if I'm wrong then the market will prove me so. Laissez faire
Honestly - did you even read what I wrote ?
Is it such a bad idea that "the little people" who live in the US should
aspire to own their own businesses ? Is it so bad to create as many jobs as
possible and to get as many people participating in the economy as possible
? Have you ever been to the ghettos where there are no jobs ?
What I am proposing is economic diversity. Not in terms of how to spend your
money, but diversification of methods of selling labor and aquiring venture
capital. The act of selling your labor to an employer is no different than
someone putting a box of cereal out on a shelf to be sold to someone who is
hungry for his bkfst. But the number of ways to sell one's labor or aquire
capital is very limited. This is where diversification is needed.
Is that Marxism ? Sure dont sound like it to me pal -
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| User: "Dr. V I Plankenstein" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
16 Mar 2007 09:51:52 PM |
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Here's the thing, and how stupid politicians are, and their suck-up
economist bonehead ghost payrolled nepotist assistant undersecretary of the
vice vice administrative "*****"istant.
Gambling has been ILLEGAL for about the same amount of time as narcotics.
Today, because they have all run out of ideas, because they are fucking
idiots, today - they are legalizing gambling just to keep the government
running. What a fucking goddamned scam. That is idiocy. What - if the
economy slips any further maybe City Hall can open up a fucking whorehouse
so that they can keep the schools running ? That is idiocy.
Here's the bottom line.
There is only one legitimate excuse for allowing gambling back on the scene,
and that would be to use it as a carrot for anyone who has aspirations to
float his ideas in the market, to run his own business.
Anything less than an acknowledgement that I am the one who represents the
most progressive form of capitalism is no less than an acknowledgement that
the system, as is, which worships competition to the exclusion of all else,
is in fact a scam and a lie which truthfully intends to enslave.
Let people work and collect their paycheck. AND, instead of giving millions
of dollars to your greedy executives, you create a lottery which is funded
by corporate profits, and periodic drawings are held where the winner gets a
big lump sum and is encouraged to start his own business. He can choose
between a smaller cashout for personal use, and a much larger venture
capital winning which "must" be used toward creation of a new business.
That is the ONLY truly legitimate form of lottery I could ever imagine, and
would serve to eradicate poverty, unemployment, and take a huge bite out of
crime. You are creating jobs, building tax bases, getting people involved in
the process of conducting business, building hope, destroying pessimism, and
fixing an economy which is being RUINED by greedy madmen.
Nobody can stop me if I want to do this. The only problem I would have is
that the payouts would need to be taxed as regular income and I dont think
that they should be if they are going toward new business creation, you
would have to lobby quite a bit to get some laws passed which would allow
you to get the tax waiver, and you would need a lawyer who can argue that
your not running a lottery, the primary activity is a real business, the
lorttery aspect is secondary but motivates people to cooperate and dream of
building their own little empires. This is not illegal, and cannot be made
illegal.
The alternative to economic innovation is watching the unemployable thugs on
TV beating 100 year old women for their purse as was done in NYC 2 days ago.
Economics and hopelessness has much to do with that. We need solutions. If
thats a crime then they can come arrest my ***** I dont give a *****.
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| User: "boson boss" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
15 Mar 2007 10:27:01 AM |
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On Mar 15, 2:47 am, "Dr. V I Plankenstein" <Plankenste...@stle.sci>
wrote:
Dr. V I Plankenstein <Plankenste...@stle.sci> wrote:
I've been very interested in the relationship between competition and
cooperation in economics. Anybody know if there are any landmark works
in
this area ?
Why are you posting this in sci.physics instead of sci.econ?
I thought that someone in here might know more than the average idiot
economist. I want to design a business which replicates like a prion. Like
DNA. It divides and replicates like a virus. I think that I have some ideas
which would make it work. It's part of my strategy to rescue the American
economy from oblivion due to massive, pervasive and all consuming idiocy.
It resembles an idea... That locally and globally there would be a
process of learning during business.
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| User: "Dr. V I Plankenstein" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
15 Mar 2007 09:31:33 PM |
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"boson boss" <junkerade@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1173972421.884093.310520@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 15, 2:47 am, "Dr. V I Plankenstein" <Plankenste...@stle.sci>
wrote:
Dr. V I Plankenstein <Plankenste...@stle.sci> wrote:
I've been very interested in the relationship between competition
and
cooperation in economics. Anybody know if there are any landmark
works
in
this area ?
Why are you posting this in sci.physics instead of sci.econ?
I thought that someone in here might know more than the average idiot
economist. I want to design a business which replicates like a prion.
Like
DNA. It divides and replicates like a virus. I think that I have some
ideas
which would make it work. It's part of my strategy to rescue the
American
economy from oblivion due to massive, pervasive and all consuming
idiocy.
It resembles an idea... That locally and globally there would be a
process of learning during business.
I think that the analogy in biology might be to look at apex predators
versus more social populations like bees. Both are capable of learning, but
they are fundamentally very different socially.
The problem in the west is that the working man, and blue collar culture,
has been very dependent - technically parasitic - on the upper class. The
parasitism is very direct. This is a real problem for both groups. In
biology, bees and bears are not directly dependent on each other for
survival. Biodiversity ensures that the disappearence or emergence of any
given apex predator or social species will not destroy the entire ecosystem.
The ecosystem can recover from many extinctions.
The economy should be the same. It should be as robust as an ecosystem. The
problem in the west is that "everyone" wants to be an apex predator, and I
cannot imagine why someone would want that. The greed is going to kill us.
Like a small pond full of Great Whites with no smaller fish. It is silly
really.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
14 Mar 2007 08:25:02 AM |
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Dr. V I Plankenstein <PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
I've been very interested in the relationship between competition and
cooperation in economics. Anybody know if there are any landmark works in
this area ?
Why are you posting this in sci.physics instead of sci.econ?
<snip remaining>
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply.
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| User: "galathaea" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
15 Mar 2007 09:39:51 AM |
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On Mar 13, 10:24 pm, "Dr. V I Plankenstein" <Plankenste...@stle.sci>
wrote:
I've been very interested in the relationship between competition and
cooperation in economics. Anybody know if there are any landmark works in
this area ?
Specifically,
You have a group of people who must perform some input to recieve some type
of payoff. If people pull together and cooperate they can probably get more
work done, but they must trust others that the payoff will be shared
equally. If your ego is greater than this level of trust, then one might
think that one can personally gain a greater share by competing against
others instead of cooperating with them.
I've got an idea for a self replicating "viral" business model. The basic
idea is that you can design a business in such a way that it must replicate
and spawn new businesses. Basically, this draws on some fundamental
differences between some biological models which behave similarly. Consider
competition among salmon versus bacterial growth models. These are two
fundamentally different modes of replication. Granted - bacteria are no
really cooperative, but ants and bees and other social lifeeforms are indeed
cooperative.
The question -
Can you balance cooperative and competitive forces in a business so that it
does'nt decay into either communism on the one hand or mass greed on the
other ? Can you find an equilibrium between competition and cooperation ?
Does anyone here know of any work like that ?
random models of coevolution have a long history
but modern boolean network simulations
show many of the effects you mention
my own personal philosophy
equates these ecological exchanges with economics
and if you hold similar view
then "origins of order: self organisation and selection in evolution"
by stuart a kauffman
may be a good resource
there are many researchers in the field
but this book has an extensive bibliography
to provide a starting point for the reference graph
it goes over
parasitism
mutualism
and other coevolutionary relationships
because of fluctuations in fitness
there are many regimes that can be explored
some where chaos prevents any long term steady-state
these same models can also be found
in social structure theory
but i don't have a good reference at hand
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar
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| User: "Dr. V I Plankenstein" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
15 Mar 2007 10:07:56 PM |
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"galathaea" <galathaea@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1173969591.636078.300570@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 13, 10:24 pm, "Dr. V I Plankenstein" <Plankenste...@stle.sci>
wrote:
I've been very interested in the relationship between competition and
cooperation in economics. Anybody know if there are any landmark works
in
this area ?
Specifically,
You have a group of people who must perform some input to recieve some
type
of payoff. If people pull together and cooperate they can probably get
more
work done, but they must trust others that the payoff will be shared
equally. If your ego is greater than this level of trust, then one might
think that one can personally gain a greater share by competing against
others instead of cooperating with them.
I've got an idea for a self replicating "viral" business model. The
basic
idea is that you can design a business in such a way that it must
replicate
and spawn new businesses. Basically, this draws on some fundamental
differences between some biological models which behave similarly.
Consider
competition among salmon versus bacterial growth models. These are two
fundamentally different modes of replication. Granted - bacteria are no
really cooperative, but ants and bees and other social lifeeforms are
indeed
cooperative.
The question -
Can you balance cooperative and competitive forces in a business so that
it
does'nt decay into either communism on the one hand or mass greed on the
other ? Can you find an equilibrium between competition and cooperation
?
Does anyone here know of any work like that ?
random models of coevolution have a long history
but modern boolean network simulations
show many of the effects you mention
my own personal philosophy
equates these ecological exchanges with economics
and if you hold similar view
then "origins of order: self organisation and selection in evolution"
by stuart a kauffman
may be a good resource
there are many researchers in the field
but this book has an extensive bibliography
to provide a starting point for the reference graph
it goes over
parasitism
mutualism
and other coevolutionary relationships
because of fluctuations in fitness
there are many regimes that can be explored
some where chaos prevents any long term steady-state
these same models can also be found
in social structure theory
but i don't have a good reference at hand
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar
So much of economics is just pure politics. I find it difficult to read
these things because you always get the feeling that somehow someone is
lieing about something somewhere, and your job is to uncover the lies which
are embedded in these grand theories. It is extremely irritating.
Biology is nothing like that. It is very brutal, but very honest and not
political at all.
Strangely, economics really is the same things as biology in many ways,
especially when reduced to mathematical relationships, predator -prey
dynamics, etc.
There is so much greed these days, very little "share and share alike" going
on. Everyone is busy trying to step on someone else's face as they climb
ever higher. It's just plain stupid. And I'm not saying that cutthroat
competition should not exist in an economy, only that an economy which is
purely cutthroat is much like a monoculture. It is weakened by it's lack of
diversity.
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| User: "John Bailey" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
15 Mar 2007 01:25:59 PM |
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On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:24:34 -0600, "Dr. V I Plankenstein"
<PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
I've been very interested in the relationship between competition and
cooperation in economics. Anybody know if there are any landmark works in
this area ?
Funny you should ask.
First, responding to the question someone else asked: why did you post
this in sci.physics?-- Its perfectly reasonable. I look regularly at
the condensed matter section of the Los Alamos National Archive. A
search for financial articles under condensed matter:
http://xyz.lanl.gov/find/cond-mat/1/ti:+financial/0/1/0/all/0/1
yielded 167 articles.
[PDF] Visions of a Sustainable World Murray Gell-Mann ... ... to break
out, or will we use intelligence and foresight to limit and redirect
competition, top damp down conflict, and to balance competition with
cooperation? ...
www.santafe.edu/research/publications/workingpapers/90-021.pdf -
2005-03-23 -
Now, I am currently exploring the solari model, in particular their
concept of tapeworm economics.
http://www.solari.com/realdeal.htm
I've got an idea for a self replicating "viral" business model. The basic
idea is that you can design a business in such a way that it must replicate
and spawn new businesses.
http://www.solariactionnetwork.com/
http://www.grameen-info.org/mcredit/cmodel.html
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=7353
The question -
Can you balance cooperative and competitive forces in a business so that it
does'nt decay into either communism on the one hand or mass greed on the
other ? Can you find an equilibrium between competition and cooperation ?
http://ojs.gc.cuny.edu/index.php/situations/article/viewFile/31/25
All worthy of consideration. Where else would you find intelligent
answers to the worlds most pressing questions?
John
.
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| User: "Dr. V I Plankenstein" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
15 Mar 2007 10:51:39 PM |
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|
"John Bailey" <john_bailey@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:iapiv2p2kjlrrtk642hvlrc4pgrrbknhhn@4ax.com...
On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:24:34 -0600, "Dr. V I Plankenstein"
<PlankensteinC@stle.sci> wrote:
I've been very interested in the relationship between competition and
cooperation in economics. Anybody know if there are any landmark works in
this area ?
Funny you should ask.
First, responding to the question someone else asked: why did you post
this in sci.physics?-- Its perfectly reasonable. I look regularly at
the condensed matter section of the Los Alamos National Archive. A
search for financial articles under condensed matter:
http://xyz.lanl.gov/find/cond-mat/1/ti:+financial/0/1/0/all/0/1
yielded 167 articles.
[PDF] Visions of a Sustainable World Murray Gell-Mann ... ... to break
out, or will we use intelligence and foresight to limit and redirect
competition, top damp down conflict, and to balance competition with
cooperation? ...
www.santafe.edu/research/publications/workingpapers/90-021.pdf -
2005-03-23 -
Now, I am currently exploring the solari model, in particular their
concept of tapeworm economics.
http://www.solari.com/realdeal.htm
Interesting site. I think that so many problems in modern society stem from
mass-greed. I dont think that materialism is the root cause. The problem is
that everybody wants to be a Donald Trump, and it simply cannot happen.
People are being sold this "pyramid theory" of cutthoat competition and it's
really stifling the economy.
I've got an idea for a self replicating "viral" business model. The basic
idea is that you can design a business in such a way that it must
replicate
and spawn new businesses.
http://www.solariactionnetwork.com/
http://www.grameen-info.org/mcredit/cmodel.html
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=7353
The question -
Can you balance cooperative and competitive forces in a business so that
it
does'nt decay into either communism on the one hand or mass greed on the
other ? Can you find an equilibrium between competition and cooperation ?
http://ojs.gc.cuny.edu/index.php/situations/article/viewFile/31/25
All worthy of consideration. Where else would you find intelligent
answers to the worlds most pressing questions?
John
My experience has been that biologists and economists tend to be somewhat
less imaginative that physicists. I approached a biology grad student one
time with some ideas and I was practically laughed at - all I said was that
organisms are very much like turbulence, and may in fact be best understood
as biochemical turbulence. I dont think that it is such a strange idea. And
I think that a physicist or chemist would be much more open to such an idea.
You can only understand how an organism could look like turbulence with
time-lapse photography. I cant imagine that future biologists will be able
to avoid such considerations - but I did get laughed at. Ah well.
.
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| User: "Bob Cain" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
16 Mar 2007 04:06:23 PM |
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Dr. V I Plankenstein wrote:
Interesting site. I think that so many problems in modern society stem from
mass-greed. I dont think that materialism is the root cause. The problem is
that everybody wants to be a Donald Trump, and it simply cannot happen.
People are being sold this "pyramid theory" of cutthoat competition and it's
really stifling the economy.
I think it is more a function of the disappearance of the middle
class. Those near the apex see fewer and fewer rungs between
themselves (and their descendants) and the misery and insecurity at
the broad bottom. Their solution is to place as much distance as they
possibly can from the free fall that lies between.
The question of how much is enough is becoming more and more difficult
to answer so that the only safe survival heuristic becomes maximal
acquisition. Not so much from greed as from fear.
Bob
--
"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."
A. Einstein
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| User: "Dr. V I Plankenstein" |
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| Title: Re: Some economics - |
16 Mar 2007 07:31:22 PM |
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"Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message
news:Dv-dnQT2oYxMm2bYnZ2dnUVZ_oOknZ2d@giganews.com...
Dr. V I Plankenstein wrote:
Interesting site. I think that so many problems in modern society stem
from
mass-greed. I dont think that materialism is the root cause. The problem
is
that everybody wants to be a Donald Trump, and it simply cannot happen.
People are being sold this "pyramid theory" of cutthoat competition and
it's
really stifling the economy.
I think it is more a function of the disappearance of the middle
class. Those near the apex see fewer and fewer rungs between
themselves (and their descendants) and the misery and insecurity at
the broad bottom. Their solution is to place as much distance as they
possibly can from the free fall that lies between.
The question of how much is enough is becoming more and more difficult
to answer so that the only safe survival heuristic becomes maximal
acquisition. Not so much from greed as from fear.
Bob
It really disgusts me that the result is a tendency to "dispose" of the
resulting lower class by importing massive numbers of scabs from Mexico and
elsewhere who simply displace Americans who were born here. This is really a
hateful act of desperation. I think that the economy is in big trouble if
this keeps up.
We need a job-creation initiative that works. So does Mexico. So does
Africa, Guatemala, Honduras, Brazil, India, Vietnam, Russia, etc etc etc.
I would like to "release the virus" on all of these economies and see what
happens. I think that it might do some good.
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