Starting a Fire the Ancient Way?


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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "W. Watson"
Date: 01 Feb 2006 11:00:33 AM
Object: Starting a Fire the Ancient Way?
Arbor Scientific sells a demonstration kit that is basically a test tube
with a plunger. If you put a bit of cotton at the bottom and push down on
the pluger, the heat generated by compressing the air causes the cotton to
catch on fire. A colleague told me that the natives of New Guinea who date
back to Stone Age know this. That is, it was discovered long, long ago. They
used a bamboo shoot and a clay vase, I think. Any comments on this?
Wayne T. Watson (Watson Adventures, Prop., Nevada City, CA)
(121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time)
Obz Site: 39° 15' 7" N, 121° 2' 32" W, 2700 feet
--
"When you think about it, electricity is
really just organized lightning." -- George Carlin
Web Page: <home.earthlink.net/~mtnviews>
.

User: "tadchem"

Title: Re: Starting a Fire the Ancient Way? 01 Feb 2006 04:20:26 PM
W. Watson wrote:

Arbor Scientific sells a demonstration kit that is basically a test tube
with a plunger. If you put a bit of cotton at the bottom and push down on
the pluger, the heat generated by compressing the air causes the cotton to
catch on fire. A colleague told me that the natives of New Guinea who date
back to Stone Age know this. That is, it was discovered long, long ago. They
used a bamboo shoot and a clay vase, I think. Any comments on this?

It doesn't pass the smell test.
Cotton is not native to New Guinea.
The method would work best with *dry* tinder, and NG is not known for
low humidity - up to 1/3rd of the weight of 'dry' cotton in a humid
environment can be water:
http://www.naima.org/pages/resources/library/html/AH145.HTML
The method requires an *airtight* seal between the plunger and the
tube, which would be very problematical with a bamboo tube. It would
not be any easier with NG natives' hand-thrown pottery:
http://www.bcgalleries.com.au/t75.html
The natives don't make fire that way now:
http://www.michie.net/pnginfo/fire.html
http://www.geocities.com/bluegumtrees/png.html
They use the Pisonia tree ("lettuce tree") for fire-making:
http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/80824e/80824E0s.htm
Their current method requires simpler tools and is more forgiving of
irregularities in the materials.
Tell your colleague that if s/he pulls your leg any more, you might
develop a permanent limp.
Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
.
User: "Greg Neill"

Title: Re: Starting a Fire the Ancient Way? 01 Feb 2006 04:44:54 PM
"tadchem" <thomas.davidson@dla.mil> wrote in message
news:1138832425.994000.327360@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...


W. Watson wrote:

Arbor Scientific sells a demonstration kit that is basically a test tube
with a plunger. If you put a bit of cotton at the bottom and push down on
the pluger, the heat generated by compressing the air causes the cotton to
catch on fire. A colleague told me that the natives of New Guinea who date
back to Stone Age know this. That is, it was discovered long, long ago. They
used a bamboo shoot and a clay vase, I think. Any comments on this?


It doesn't pass the smell test.

Cotton is not native to New Guinea.

The method would work best with *dry* tinder, and NG is not known for
low humidity - up to 1/3rd of the weight of 'dry' cotton in a humid
environment can be water:
http://www.naima.org/pages/resources/library/html/AH145.HTML

Well, the ignition temperature of hay is about 172C. I presume
that's dry hay... The trick would be to use enough volume of
air to compress so that the available heat can keep the
temperature past that long enough to do its job.


The method requires an *airtight* seal between the plunger and the
tube, which would be very problematical with a bamboo tube. It would
not be any easier with NG natives' hand-thrown pottery:
http://www.bcgalleries.com.au/t75.html

Hey, repeated compressions will be indistinguishible
from rubbing two sticks together! ;-)
.
User: "W. Watson"

Title: Re: Starting a Fire the Ancient Way? 01 Feb 2006 08:15:45 PM
Greg Neill wrote:

"tadchem" <thomas.davidson@dla.mil> wrote in message
news:1138832425.994000.327360@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

W. Watson wrote:

Arbor Scientific sells a demonstration kit that is basically a test tube
with a plunger. If you put a bit of cotton at the bottom and push down on
the pluger, the heat generated by compressing the air causes the cotton to
catch on fire. A colleague told me that the natives of New Guinea who date
back to Stone Age know this. That is, it was discovered long, long ago. They
used a bamboo shoot and a clay vase, I think. Any comments on this?


It doesn't pass the smell test.

Cotton is not native to New Guinea.

The method would work best with *dry* tinder, and NG is not known for
low humidity - up to 1/3rd of the weight of 'dry' cotton in a humid
environment can be water:
http://www.naima.org/pages/resources/library/html/AH145.HTML



Well, the ignition temperature of hay is about 172C. I presume
that's dry hay... The trick would be to use enough volume of
air to compress so that the available heat can keep the
temperature past that long enough to do its job.


The method requires an *airtight* seal between the plunger and the
tube, which would be very problematical with a bamboo tube. It would
not be any easier with NG natives' hand-thrown pottery:
http://www.bcgalleries.com.au/t75.html



Hey, repeated compressions will be indistinguishible
from rubbing two sticks together! ;-)


See my comments to the other respondent.
Wayne T. Watson (Watson Adventures, Prop., Nevada City, CA)
(121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time)
Obz Site: 39° 15' 7" N, 121° 2' 32" W, 2700 feet
--
"When you think about it, electricity is
really just organized lightning." -- George Carlin
Web Page: <home.earthlink.net/~mtnviews>
.


User: "W. Watson"

Title: Re: Starting a Fire the Ancient Way? 01 Feb 2006 08:15:05 PM
tadchem wrote:

W. Watson wrote:

Arbor Scientific sells a demonstration kit that is basically a test tube
with a plunger. If you put a bit of cotton at the bottom and push down on
the pluger, the heat generated by compressing the air causes the cotton to
catch on fire. A colleague told me that the natives of New Guinea who date
back to Stone Age know this. That is, it was discovered long, long ago. They
used a bamboo shoot and a clay vase, I think. Any comments on this?



It doesn't pass the smell test.

Cotton is not native to New Guinea.

The method would work best with *dry* tinder, and NG is not known for
low humidity - up to 1/3rd of the weight of 'dry' cotton in a humid
environment can be water:
http://www.naima.org/pages/resources/library/html/AH145.HTML

The method requires an *airtight* seal between the plunger and the
tube, which would be very problematical with a bamboo tube. It would
not be any easier with NG natives' hand-thrown pottery:
http://www.bcgalleries.com.au/t75.html

The natives don't make fire that way now:
http://www.michie.net/pnginfo/fire.html
http://www.geocities.com/bluegumtrees/png.html

They use the Pisonia tree ("lettuce tree") for fire-making:
http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/80824e/80824E0s.htm

Their current method requires simpler tools and is more forgiving of
irregularities in the materials.

Tell your colleague that if s/he pulls your leg any more, you might
develop a permanent limp.

If I said that the NGs use cotton, then "excuseeeee meeee", to quote Steve
Martin. Nevertheless, thank you for your additional input. Somehow I don't
think was pulling my leg. I'm just trying to get to the source of this idea.
I'm slightly skeptical, but I found it intriguing nevertheless. There are
times when such technological occur that way. For example, cement. The
Roman's used in 1000s of years ago, and the methodology was completely lost
to subsequent cultures for over a 1000 years until the English re-discovered it.
I'll look at your sources provided.
Wayne T. Watson (Watson Adventures, Prop., Nevada City, CA)
(121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time)
Obz Site: 39° 15' 7" N, 121° 2' 32" W, 2700 feet
--
"When you think about it, electricity is
really just organized lightning." -- George Carlin
Web Page: <home.earthlink.net/~mtnviews>
.
User: "tadchem"

Title: Re: Starting a Fire the Ancient Way? 03 Feb 2006 03:20:09 AM
W. Watson wrote:
<snip>

If I said that the NGs use cotton, then "excuseeeee meeee", to quote Steve
Martin.

You are excused. (BTW, I think the way he said it was more like
"excuuuuse meeee!", with the "u" dramatically elongated in the first
word.)

Nevertheless, thank you for your additional input. Somehow I don't
think was pulling my leg. I'm just trying to get to the source of this idea.

The piston air pump was developed by Otto von Guericke in the mid-17th
century:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Guericke
He used it more for making vacuums and demonstrating the physical
reality of air, vacuum, and atmospheric pressure, especially in the
famous "Magdeburg experiments."

I'm slightly skeptical, but I found it intriguing nevertheless. There are
times when such technological occur that way. For example, cement. The
Roman's used in 1000s of years ago, and the methodology was completely lost
to subsequent cultures for over a 1000 years until the English re-discovered it.

The Roman's *real* secret in their cement was pozzolana and pumice,
which allowed their cement to set under water. The enabled the
building of many seaports, control of seagoing commerce and building
navies.
Portland cement was reinvated later, as you say, but it took much
longer to rediscover the utility of porous rock in cement.
Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
.



User: "Sam Wormley"

Title: Re: Starting a Fire the Ancient Way? 01 Feb 2006 10:17:30 PM
W. Watson wrote:

Arbor Scientific sells a demonstration kit that is basically a test tube
with a plunger. If you put a bit of cotton at the bottom and push down
on the pluger, the heat generated by compressing the air causes the
cotton to catch on fire. A colleague told me that the natives of New
Guinea who date back to Stone Age know this. That is, it was discovered
long, long ago. They used a bamboo shoot and a clay vase, I think. Any
comments on this?

Wayne T. Watson (Watson Adventures, Prop., Nevada City, CA)
(121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time)
Obz Site: 39° 15' 7" N, 121° 2' 32" W, 2700 feet

The Firepiston: Ancient Firemaking Machine
http://www.onagocag.com/piston.html
.
User: "tadchem"

Title: Re: Starting a Fire the Ancient Way? 03 Feb 2006 04:01:58 AM
Sam Wormley wrote:
<snip repost>

The Firepiston: Ancient Firemaking Machine
http://www.onagocag.com/piston.html

Very interesting, Sam.
The earliest date given is an English patent (1807). The 'discovery'
if the use of the fire piston in the Indonesian jungles was in 1865,
long after the first contact with Europeans (van Linschoten, 1582) and
the chartering of the Dutch East India Company (1602), so the native
cannot be said to have discovered this technology independently on the
basis oif this report alone.
The "traditional" design given is simple and elegant, but "The walls of
the bore must be perfectly straight and polished smooth." I doubt that
simple stone-age technology and craftsmanship is up to the job,
especially having seen images of examples of their pottery.
Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
.



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