Stella Vs. Terence



 Science > Physics > Stella Vs. Terence

LINK TO THIS PAGE  


rating :  0   |  0


  Page 1 of 1

1

 
Topic: Science > Physics
User: "Jack Martinelli"
Date: 29 Mar 2005 07:40:37 PM
Object: Stella Vs. Terence
In:
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/TwinParadox/twin_spacetime.html
I understand and accept the experimental evidence that shows that the Twin
Paradox is not a paradox. I understand the Lorentz xforms. I've done the
derivation myself. But the explanation that John gives seems to ignore
"inertial" and the view from both frames.
John shows a diagram where Stella travels away from Earth, turns around and
comes back to Earth where Terence & Stella compare clocks. What he doesn't
show is the same diagram where Stella is at rest in her frame and the Earth
leaves and comes back. Why? In Stella's frame the Earth travels the same
distance out and back & it's world line is the same distance. If
acceleration is the key to understanding it, I'm not getting it. I
understand the asymmetry, but how is this key?
The army of clocks doesn't help either since Stella can carry just as many
if not more. Clocks don't vote anyway.
E.g., Terence has one clock & Stella has 10^100 Clocks. Why would Stella's
clocks not be the ones who age more than Terence's.
Regards,
Jack Martinelli
http://www.martinelli.org
.

User: "Uncle Al"

Title: Re: Stella Vs. Terence 29 Mar 2005 07:51:08 PM
Jack Martinelli wrote:


In:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/TwinParadox/twin_spacetime.html

I understand and accept the experimental evidence that shows that the Twin
Paradox is not a paradox. I understand the Lorentz xforms. I've done the
derivation myself. But the explanation that John gives seems to ignore
"inertial" and the view from both frames.

John shows a diagram where Stella travels away from Earth, turns around and
comes back to Earth where Terence & Stella compare clocks. What he doesn't
show is the same diagram where Stella is at rest in her frame and the Earth
leaves and comes back. Why?

[snip crap]
Only one frame accelerates to create the experiment. It makes no
difference if the clock is in the frame when it accelerates. The
frame that passes through the most space has the least time pass. It
is a simple as that: More space traversed, less time elapsed.
<http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/relativ/airtim.html>
<http://metrologyforum.tm.agilent.com/pdf/flying_clock_math.pdf>
http://metrologyforum.tm.agilent.com/cesium.shtml
http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0008012
Hafele-Keating Experiment
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
.
User: "Schoenfeld"

Title: Re: Stella Vs. Terence 30 Mar 2005 06:17:20 PM
Uncle Al wrote:

It is a simple as that: More space traversed, less time elapsed.

Only after the fact. During the trip, there is no absolute frame to
make this determination. Before one of the twins makes the U-turn, what
is the answer to the question "Which of the twins will be the eldest
when compared?" if asked to both twins? It is indeterminable or a
superposition of both at best.
.


User: "Schoenfeld"

Title: Re: Stella Vs. Terence 30 Mar 2005 05:20:25 PM
Jack Martinelli wrote:

In:


http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/TwinParadox/twin_spacetime.html


I understand and accept the experimental evidence that shows that the

Twin

Paradox is not a paradox. I understand the Lorentz xforms. I've

done the

derivation myself. But the explanation that John gives seems to

ignore

"inertial" and the view from both frames.

John shows a diagram where Stella travels away from Earth, turns

around and

comes back to Earth where Terence & Stella compare clocks. What he

doesn't

show is the same diagram where Stella is at rest in her frame and the

Earth

leaves and comes back. Why? In Stella's frame the Earth travels the

same

distance out and back & it's world line is the same distance. If
acceleration is the key to understanding it, I'm not getting it. I
understand the asymmetry, but how is this key?

The army of clocks doesn't help either since Stella can carry just as

many

if not more. Clocks don't vote anyway.

E.g., Terence has one clock & Stella has 10^100 Clocks. Why would

Stella's

clocks not be the ones who age more than Terence's.

It has to do with what the clocks are trying to tell you. A clock is
simply a book keeping mechanism of the "present time". In relativity,
an observers "present time" is the set of simultaneous events relative
to that observer. This set forms a (3d) plane in Minkowski space-time.
Here is Baez's space-time diagram:
|\
| \
T | \ Stella in leg 2
o | \
r | \
r | | <--- acceleration
e | /
n | /
c | /
e | /
|/ Stella in leg 1
During the first leg, Stella's simultaneity plane sweeps through
torrence's worldline at a constant angle as follows. (Excuse the ascii
art).
|\
| \
T | \
o | \
r | \
r | | <--- acceleration
e | /
n | _--/ <--- Stella's simultaneity plane here sloping down.
c |_-- /
e | /
|/
During the second leg, Stella's simultaneity plane has a different
angle.
|\
| \
T |-__ \
o | -__\ <--- Stella's simultaneity plane sloping up
r | \
r | | <--- acceleration
e | /
n | /
c | /
e | /
|/
So as you see, when stella arrives to meet Torrence at the end of the
second leg, Torrence will have aged relative to stella. How did this
happen since according to SR both were moving away relative to each
other?
The answer lies within the acceleration phase. Since stella
accelerated, she switched reference frames. Mathemetically this U-turn
rotates stella's simultaneity plane such that it sweeps through
Torrences time-line at a rather large rate. In essence the Twin
Paradox can never actually materialize as in order for Torrence and
Stella to compare themselves, at least one observer needs to switch
reference frames. It is the switching which resolves the paradox.

Regards,

Jack Martinelli

http://www.martinelli.org

.

User: "Ben Rudiak-Gould"

Title: Re: Stella Vs. Terence 30 Mar 2005 08:26:28 AM
Jack Martinelli wrote:

John shows a diagram where Stella travels away from Earth, turns around and
comes back to Earth where Terence & Stella compare clocks. What he doesn't
show is the same diagram where Stella is at rest in her frame and the Earth
leaves and comes back. Why?

Short answer: because there's no such inertial frame.
-- Ben
.


  Page 1 of 1

1

 


Related Articles
 

NEWER

pg.1612     pg.1232     pg.940     pg.716     pg.544     pg.412     pg.311     pg.234     pg.175     pg.130     pg.96     pg.70     pg.50     pg.35     pg.24     pg.16     pg.10     pg.6     pg.3     pg.1

OLDER