| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Darrell Lakin" |
| Date: |
21 Nov 2007 08:44:18 PM |
| Object: |
Stellar Black Hole Oddities |
It has been written in many places that black holes should violate all
the laws of physics, but they never say what that means. Why? First of
all the oddities is that nearly infinite masses are being acclerated
to the speed of light before colliding with an 'infinite' mass. This
underlines intense temperatures that exist nowhere else. Billions of
degrees? Trillions of degrees? Quadrillions of degrees? More? Yet in
the black hole no energy moves because of the intense gravity. The
atoms have no vibration at all, and that's heat. No radiative photons
move at all. No heat at all. None. Absolute zero. By definition. And
all this absolute zero matter is at an intense heat seen nowhere else
in the Universe. Absolute zero at trillions of degrees. Maybe more.
The first violation of the laws of physics. But not the last. What
about the gravity? Or more accurately, the gravity "well". We are
shown a characterization of the gravity well as something looking like
a sink drain vortex magnified, but is it? It's true that the math
shows that space-time near the black hole should be warped into a
nearly vertical vector before being stopped cold at the surface of the
black hole and mutated into a singular 'point'. But remember the mass
swirling in also affects space-time into a gravity well of its own
prior to hitting the black hole. As the mass accelerates faster its
resistance to velocity change, or its mass, also increases. Matter
actually observed entering a black hole ought to produce strange
properties of its own prior to colliding. That is, there should be
another gravity well vortex that appears to be perpendicular to the
vector of the inrushing matter. Then the impact itself, producing
billions of degrees of heat energy, instantly seen to disappear. But
the collision of two perpendicular planes of 'gravity-wells' ought to
produce gravity waves. Do they? Observing visable light passing near a
black hole before reaching the earth should give telecopes quite a
light show. Do the telescopes see this? And then there are all the
other violations of the laws of physics...
Darrell Lakin
3174 South Shore Drive
Smithfield, VA 23430
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| User: "Androcles" |
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| Title: Re: Stellar Black Hole Oddities |
21 Nov 2007 09:08:25 PM |
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"Darrell Lakin" <darrelllakin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4c01e3c7-c70d-4594-9e83-fc65954d6afb@j44g2000hsj.googlegroups.com...
: It has been written in many places that black holes should violate all
: the laws of physics, but they never say what that means. Why?
The shuttle takes off vertically. Is it travelling, North, East,
South or West? Or is it violating the laws of navigation?
Tell you what. You go find a black hole and we'll discuss it.
Until then let's discuss the egg laying habits of bright green
flying elephants, that might violate the laws of biology.
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Stellar Black Hole Oddities |
21 Nov 2007 09:19:32 PM |
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Darrell Lakin wrote:
It has been written in many places that black holes should violate all
the laws of physics, but they never say what that means. Why? First of
all the oddities is that nearly infinite masses are being acclerated
to the speed of light before colliding with an 'infinite' mass. This
underlines intense temperatures that exist nowhere else. Billions of
degrees? Trillions of degrees? Quadrillions of degrees? More? Yet in
the black hole no energy moves because of the intense gravity. The
atoms have no vibration at all, and that's heat.
Bekenstein-Hawking Formula
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Bekenstein-HawkingFormula.html
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/biography/Hawking.html
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| User: "Yousuf Khan" |
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| Title: Re: Stellar Black Hole Oddities |
21 Nov 2007 10:19:53 PM |
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Darrell Lakin wrote:
It has been written in many places that black holes should violate all
the laws of physics, but they never say what that means. Why? First of
all the oddities is that nearly infinite masses are being acclerated
to the speed of light before colliding with an 'infinite' mass. This
underlines intense temperatures that exist nowhere else. Billions of
degrees? Trillions of degrees? Quadrillions of degrees? More? Yet in
the black hole no energy moves because of the intense gravity. The
atoms have no vibration at all, and that's heat. No radiative photons
move at all. No heat at all. None. Absolute zero. By definition. And
all this absolute zero matter is at an intense heat seen nowhere else
in the Universe. Absolute zero at trillions of degrees. Maybe more.
First let me say, maybe you should've broken this up into paragraphs and
that way it would've been easier to follow your thoughts (questions?).
That being said, let me correct a few things. No one ever said that
black holes have infinite *mass*. What was said is that at some point
they have infinite *density*. Recalling your high school science
classes, density is the amount of material (mass) packed away in a given
volume (density = mass / volume). Einstein's theory of General
Relativity comes to the conclusion that some point there is so much mass
there that it can't stop itself from squeezing down to zero volume.
Density becomes infinite when you have some mass but no volume to occupy.
That's what General Relativity believes will happen inside a black hole.
Other people, using Quantum Mechanics believe that the black hole will
stop contracting long before it gets to zero volume, due to some quantum
effects. Unfortunately, nobody knows what those effects are because
there is not yet a quantum mechanical description of gravity. Quantum
Mechanical effects are only effective on effective in small scales of
volume and mass, and General Relativity is only effective in extremely
large scales. Until someone writes down a provable quantum gravity
theory, we don't know how things can work out inside a black hole.
As for the temperature of a black hole, Back in the 1970's, Stephen
Hawking and Jacob Bekenstein came up with a proof that blackholes must
radiate energy away from them continously. So this means that blackholes
slowly fade away from existence.
Yousuf Khan
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Stellar Black Hole Oddities |
22 Nov 2007 07:19:15 AM |
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On 21 nov, 21:44, Darrell Lakin <darrellla...@yahoo.com> wrote:
It has been written in many places that black holes should violate all
the laws of physics, but they never say what that means. Why? First of
all the oddities is that nearly infinite masses are being acclerated
to the speed of light before colliding with an 'infinite' mass. This
underlines intense temperatures that exist nowhere else. Billions of
degrees? Trillions of degrees? Quadrillions of degrees? More? Yet in
the black hole no energy moves because of the intense gravity. The
atoms have no vibration at all, and that's heat. No radiative photons
move at all. No heat at all. None. Absolute zero. By definition. And
all this absolute zero matter is at an intense heat seen nowhere else
in the Universe. Absolute zero at trillions of degrees. Maybe more.
The first violation of the laws of physics. But not the last. What
about the gravity? Or more accurately, the gravity "well". We are
shown a characterization of the gravity well as something looking like
a sink drain vortex magnified, but is it? It's true that the math
shows that space-time near the black hole should be warped into a
nearly vertical vector before being stopped cold at the surface of the
black hole and mutated into a singular 'point'. But remember the mass
swirling in also affects space-time into a gravity well of its own
prior to hitting the black hole. As the mass accelerates faster its
resistance to velocity change, or its mass, also increases. Matter
actually observed entering a black hole ought to produce strange
properties of its own prior to colliding. That is, there should be
another gravity well vortex that appears to be perpendicular to the
vector of the inrushing matter. Then the impact itself, producing
billions of degrees of heat energy, instantly seen to disappear. But
the collision of two perpendicular planes of 'gravity-wells' ought to
produce gravity waves. Do they? Observing visable light passing near a
black hole before reaching the earth should give telecopes quite a
light show. Do the telescopes see this? And then there are all the
other violations of the laws of physics...
Darrell Lakin
3174 South Shore Drive
Smithfield, VA 23430
The voice of reason.
You have to consider, even if most physicists deeply believe
in the existence of so called black holes, they still are only a
hypothesis strictly based on analyzing the math involved in
general and special relativity.
Believing in them, they now see them in all astronomical
cases where current knowledge level does not allow a clear
explanation.
When the limits imposed by physical reality are not
taken into account, the equations lead to irrational
infinite situations that can exist only on paper.
Andr=E9 Michaud
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| User: "Eric Gisse" |
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| Title: Re: Stellar Black Hole Oddities |
22 Nov 2007 03:35:12 PM |
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On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 05:19:15 -0800 (PST), wrote:
[stuff]
You have to consider, even if most physicists deeply believe
in the existence of so called black holes, they still are only a
hypothesis strictly based on analyzing the math involved in
general and special relativity.
Are you sure? Because I'm almost completely certain that there is a
little observational evidence thrown into the mix.
Believing in them, they now see them in all astronomical
cases where current knowledge level does not allow a clear
explanation.
How clear does it have to be before folks like you stop crying about
it?
Take Sgr A* for example. There is 3.5 [ish] million solar masses
stuffed inside a region encapsulated by an orbit equivalent to Pluto.
That is a bound readily set by merely observing a star orbiting. The
bound decreases through direct observation.
What is it, if not a black hole?
When the limits imposed by physical reality are not
taken into account, the equations lead to irrational
infinite situations that can exist only on paper.
Andrι Michaud
The only infinity you get is at the center of the black hole -
everywhere else is nice and physical in GR.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Stellar Black Hole Oddities |
22 Nov 2007 12:39:34 AM |
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On Nov 22, 3:44 pm, Darrell Lakin <darrellla...@yahoo.com> wrote:
all the oddities is that nearly infinite masses are being acclerated
to the speed of light before colliding with an 'infinite' mass. This
nearly infinite masses?
speed of light?
'infinite' mass?
Where did you hear all this bollocks? Well the mass of a potato is
nearly infinite if you're comparing it to the mass of an ant, but so
what? That's just words.
in the Universe. Absolute zero at trillions of degrees. Maybe more.
No, obviously it can't be both. For temperature to be meaningful you
need molecules or some other particles to be moving. Those don't
exist at the singularity of a black hole. Blackbody radiation is one
way to measure temperature, and applied to black holes it would give
near absolute zero. I'm not sure where you got your trillions of
degrees from. If you're talking about the visible infalling matter,
that's not part of the black hole, it's just common matter that
happens to have got hot. Nothing fancy there.
resistance to velocity change, or its mass, also increases. Matter
actually observed entering a black hole ought to produce strange
I don't think relativistic mass has stronger gravity than the object's
rest mass, but I could be wrong. That concept isn't normally used
anymore, so it'll have to be possible to make the same arguement
without referring to it.
the collision of two perpendicular planes of 'gravity-wells' ought to
produce gravity waves. Do they? Observing visable light passing near a
I think that's what the gravity wave detectors are looking for,
apparently they're hard to detect or not there at all.
black hole before reaching the earth should give telecopes quite a
light show. Do the telescopes see this? And then there are all the
other violations of the laws of physics...
We can see gravitational lensing, we can also see blackbody radiation
from the infalling matter of possible black holes. What else are you
expecting?
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| User: "=?UTF-8?Q?Jeff=E2=98=A0Relf?=" |
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| Title: Our water-world is transient, a point on the endless EntropyScape. |
22 Nov 2007 09:17:16 AM |
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You hit the nail on the head, Darrell_Lakin.
It reminded me of my Nov. 19th post to Sam Wormley:
β β.
Obviously... Einstein, Stephen Hawking and Bill Unruh are not here;
but, if they were, they'd tell you true event-horizons can't exist.
Our sun spews out 4 mega tons per second,
3 mega tons of which are photons, the rest is ions and electrons.
How much more, then, would an β apparent β black hole spew ?
Our Milky Way might be naught but spew from Sagittarious A*,
from a time when the cosmos was much denser/hotter.
This cosmic cooling, this thinning, the spew...
it's the engine that created us, the Universe, everything.
Without it... life, death, and motion would not exist.
People like Sam Wormley can't look at life,
because, in it, are the seeds of their own demise.
The cosmos is forever approaching absolute zero but never getting there.
Finite minds can't picture it, but they can evolve with it.
Our water-world is transient, a point on the endless EntropyScape.
Sure, the earth's oil ( i.e. delayed solar radiance ) is flaring up,
like a solar flar, causing β global warming β,
but that's just more spew, more cooling, more thinning... burning out.
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