| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"John Schutkeker" |
| Date: |
13 Sep 2005 07:51:15 PM |
| Object: |
"Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
The eleven year cycle, during which the sun's magnetic field reverses
itself, has a sister cycle in Earth's B field, which reverses itself about
every eleven thousand years, IIRC. But the reversal of the sun's B field
is mediated by sunspots, which form near 40 degrees latitude and migrate to
the solar equator, where sunspots of opposite polarity destroy each other,
canceling a small portion of the field.
This begs the question of whether a similar phenomenon happens in the
Earth's core. Does anybody know if this question has been examined by
physicists, and if so, has it been confirmed or disproved?
Since Earth's molten core is not a plasma, it is not capable of forming
solar flares and generating coronal mass ejections. Does eliminating this
aspect of the physics eliminate the possibility of "earthspots" as a
mechanism for the B field reversal?
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| User: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \dlzc\ N: dlzc1 D:cox" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
13 Sep 2005 09:37:52 PM |
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Dear John Schutkeker:
"John Schutkeker" <jschutkeker@sbcglobal.net.nospam> wrote in
message
news:Xns96D0D42FD3F35lkajehoriuasldfjknak@207.115.17.102...
The eleven year cycle, during which the sun's magnetic field
reverses itself, has a sister cycle in Earth's B field, which
reverses itself about every eleven thousand years, IIRC. But
the reversal of the sun's B field is mediated by sunspots,
"Mediated" is too strong a word, since a direct mechanism has not
been identified. And some sunspots are always present. How
about "possibly symptomatic co-occurance"?
which form near 40 degrees latitude and migrate to
the solar equator, where sunspots of opposite polarity destroy
each other, canceling a small portion of the field.
This begs the question of whether a similar phenomenon
happens in the Earth's core.
How would we know? We can't get to the core, except in bad
movies.
Does anybody know if this question has been examined by
physicists, and if so, has it been confirmed or disproved?
Except for poorly documented "Bermuda triangle" stories, no one
expects to find what you do.
Since Earth's molten core is not a plasma, it is not capable
of forming solar flares and generating coronal mass ejections.
Does eliminating this aspect of the physics eliminate the
possibility of "earthspots" as a mechanism for the B field
reversal?
Does eliminating the doorbell prevent the delivery of bills?
David A. Smith
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
13 Sep 2005 08:18:40 PM |
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John Schutkeker wrote:
The eleven year cycle, during which the sun's magnetic field reverses
itself, has a sister cycle in Earth's B field, which reverses itself about
every eleven thousand years, IIRC.
[snip crap]
Idiot.
Since Earth's molten core is not a plasma, it is not capable of forming
solar flares and generating coronal mass ejections.
[snip more crap]
"Idiot" is so inadequate.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
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| User: "mike3" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
13 Sep 2005 09:07:19 PM |
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Uncle Al wrote:
John Schutkeker wrote:
The eleven year cycle, during which the sun's magnetic field reverses
itself, has a sister cycle in Earth's B field, which reverses itself about
every eleven thousand years, IIRC.
[snip crap]
Idiot.
Since Earth's molten core is not a plasma, it is not capable of forming
solar flares and generating coronal mass ejections.
[snip more crap]
"Idiot" is so inadequate.
Insults don't do it. You've got to refute what he's saying -- show his
error, not just claim it.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
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| User: "Mh" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
13 Sep 2005 09:30:55 PM |
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"mike3" <mike4ty4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1126663639.511979.218000@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Uncle Al wrote:
John Schutkeker wrote:
The eleven year cycle, during which the sun's magnetic field reverses
itself, has a sister cycle in Earth's B field, which reverses itself
about
every eleven thousand years, IIRC.
[snip crap]
Idiot.
Since Earth's molten core is not a plasma, it is not capable of forming
solar flares and generating coronal mass ejections.
[snip more crap]
"Idiot" is so inadequate.
Insults don't do it. You've got to refute what he's saying -- show his
error, not just claim it.
My statement: The sky is falling. You prove that it is not.
Some things are just obvious.
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
13 Sep 2005 10:00:15 PM |
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Mh wrote:
"mike3" <mike4ty4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1126663639.511979.218000@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Uncle Al wrote:
John Schutkeker wrote:
The eleven year cycle, during which the sun's magnetic field reverses
itself, has a sister cycle in Earth's B field, which reverses itself
about
every eleven thousand years, IIRC.
[snip crap]
Idiot.
Since Earth's molten core is not a plasma, it is not capable of forming
solar flares and generating coronal mass ejections.
[snip more crap]
"Idiot" is so inadequate.
Insults don't do it. You've got to refute what he's saying -- show his
error, not just claim it.
My statement: The sky is falling. You prove that it is not.
Some things are just obvious.
*lonkp*
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
13 Sep 2005 09:31:11 PM |
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In sci.physics mike3 <mike4ty4@yahoo.com> wrote:
Uncle Al wrote:
John Schutkeker wrote:
The eleven year cycle, during which the sun's magnetic field reverses
itself, has a sister cycle in Earth's B field, which reverses itself about
every eleven thousand years, IIRC.
[snip crap]
Idiot.
Since Earth's molten core is not a plasma, it is not capable of forming
solar flares and generating coronal mass ejections.
[snip more crap]
"Idiot" is so inadequate.
Insults don't do it. You've got to refute what he's saying -- show his
error, not just claim it.
The only purpose to refuting the babblings of an imbecile is in the
satisfaction derived from rubbing the fact that they are a babbling
imbecile in their face.
However, since there are so many babbling imbeciles posting here, you
have to choose your targets least you spend all your time refuting
the babbling imbeciles.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply.
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| User: "Art Deco" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
13 Sep 2005 10:35:41 PM |
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<jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote:
In sci.physics mike3 <mike4ty4@yahoo.com> wrote:
Uncle Al wrote:
John Schutkeker wrote:
The eleven year cycle, during which the sun's magnetic field reverses
itself, has a sister cycle in Earth's B field, which reverses itself
about
every eleven thousand years, IIRC.
[snip crap]
Idiot.
Since Earth's molten core is not a plasma, it is not capable of forming
solar flares and generating coronal mass ejections.
[snip more crap]
"Idiot" is so inadequate.
Insults don't do it. You've got to refute what he's saying -- show his
error, not just claim it.
The only purpose to refuting the babblings of an imbecile is in the
satisfaction derived from rubbing the fact that they are a babbling
imbecile in their face.
However, since there are so many babbling imbeciles posting here, you
have to choose your targets least you spend all your time refuting
the babbling imbeciles.
"Arguing with kooks is pointless." -- a wise person posting to usenet.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
--
Official Associate AFA-B Vote Rustler
"The original human being was a female hermaphrodite with
both male and female genitalia."
"Human beings CAN NOT live in a solar system without a sun
with a ferrite core and a planet without a solid iron core."
-- Alexa Cameron, Kook of the Year 2004
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
13 Sep 2005 08:14:34 PM |
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John Schutkeker wrote:
The eleven year cycle, during which the sun's magnetic field reverses
itself, has a sister cycle in Earth's B field, which reverses itself about
every eleven thousand years, IIRC.
You don't recall correctly... No correlation.
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| User: "mountain man" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
13 Sep 2005 09:40:28 PM |
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"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:_PKVe.327222$x96.291623@attbi_s72...
John Schutkeker wrote:
The eleven year cycle, during which the sun's magnetic field reverses
itself, has a sister cycle in Earth's B field, which reverses itself
about every eleven thousand years, IIRC.
You don't recall correctly... No correlation.
The solar cycle is (gravitationally) often correlated to the wandering
of the center of mass of the solar system wrt the sun (sometimes as
much as 2 solar diameters) due to the cyclic influence of the gas giants
(Jupiter, Saturn) on the location of this center of mass.
I know of no correlations for magnetic field reversals,
between the sun and the earth.
--
Pete Brown
Falls Creek
OZ
www.mountainman.com.au
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| User: "John Schutkeker" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
15 Sep 2005 07:51:56 AM |
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"mountain man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op> wrote in
news:w4MVe.43460$FA3.34911@news-server.bigpond.net.au:
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:_PKVe.327222$x96.291623@attbi_s72...
John Schutkeker wrote:
The eleven year cycle, during which the sun's magnetic field
reverses itself, has a sister cycle in Earth's B field, which
reverses itself about every eleven thousand years, IIRC.
You don't recall correctly... No correlation.
The solar cycle is (gravitationally) often correlated to the wandering
of the center of mass of the solar system wrt the sun (sometimes as
much as 2 solar diameters) due to the cyclic influence of the gas
giants (Jupiter, Saturn) on the location of this center of mass.
I know of no correlations for magnetic field reversals,
between the sun and the earth.
I've gotta thank you guys for your skepticism, because in forcing me to
explain it to those who don't have the plasma physics background I have,
you've inspired me to work out some key missing details to make the
theory more acceptable.
You guys are the ones who said "correlation," not me. I meant "sister
cycle," to mean that the sun is a big sphere of spinning plasma
conductor, and the earth's core is a big ball of spinning liquid metal
conductor, and both display a field reversal. Thus the physics will be
similar, because liquid metal is a rough approximation to an ultra high
density plasma.
Tajima published that the poloidal fields of oppositely polarized
sunspots are destroyed in reconnection. The energy from that destroyed
B field is then deposited into the fluid as a pulse of kinetic energy
that creates a coronal mass ejection.
The earthly equivalent of this takes place at the core/mantle boundary,
which is the density of molten stone and iron, rather than empty space.
Thus the CME becomes an ejection of material from the metallic core into
the mantle's magma. It bubbles up for a short distance into the mantle
before falling back toward the boundary, coming nowhere near the crust.
And as to observational data, you are surely familiar with numerical
experimentation via fluid/particle simulation?
It is a COINCIDENCE that both reversal periods happen to have the number
eleven in them, eleven years vs. eleven thousand years. And I don't
know who mentioned the Bermuda Triangle, but it wasn't me, and it never
will be me. That's just plain stupid.
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| User: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \dlzc\ N: dlzc1 D:cox" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
15 Sep 2005 08:15:44 AM |
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Dear John Schutkeker:
"John Schutkeker" <jschutkeker@sbcglobal.net.nospam> wrote in
message
news:Xns96D25A3CBFB7Flkajehoriuasldfjknak@207.115.17.102...
"mountain man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op> wrote in
news:w4MVe.43460$FA3.34911@news-server.bigpond.net.au:
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:_PKVe.327222$x96.291623@attbi_s72...
John Schutkeker wrote:
The eleven year cycle, during which the sun's magnetic field
reverses itself, has a sister cycle in Earth's B field,
which
reverses itself about every eleven thousand years, IIRC.
You don't recall correctly... No correlation.
The solar cycle is (gravitationally) often correlated to the
wandering of the center of mass of the solar system wrt
the sun (sometimes as much as 2 solar diameters) due
to the cyclic influence of the gas giants (Jupiter, Saturn)
on the location of this center of mass.
I know of no correlations for magnetic field reversals,
between the sun and the earth.
I've gotta thank you guys for your skepticism, because in
forcing me to explain it to those who don't have the
plasma physics background I have, you've inspired me to
work out some key missing details to make the theory
more acceptable.
"Theory"? You have a mathematical model also?
You guys are the ones who said "correlation," not me. I
meant "sister cycle," to mean that the sun is a big
sphere of spinning plasma conductor, and the earth's
core is a big ball of spinning liquid metal conductor,
Not *just* metal. Not a "conductor", from what measurements I
have seen of surface magma.
and both display a field reversal. Thus the physics will
be similar, because liquid metal is a rough approximation
to an ultra high density plasma.
Neither a metal, nor a conductor.
Tajima published that the poloidal fields of oppositely
polarized sunspots are destroyed in reconnection.
The energy from that destroyed B field is then
deposited into the fluid as a pulse of kinetic energy
that creates a coronal mass ejection.
Which has *zero* to do with global pole reversal.
The earthly equivalent of this takes place at the
core/mantle boundary, which is the density of
molten stone and iron, rather than empty space.
Thus the CME becomes an ejection of material
from the metallic core into the mantle's magma.
It bubbles up for a short distance into the mantle
before falling back toward the boundary, coming
nowhere near the crust.
Any evidence of distortions on the local magnetic field
near-newly active magma pockets?
And as to observational data, you are surely familiar
with numerical experimentation via fluid/particle
simulation?
And?
It is a COINCIDENCE that both reversal periods
happen to have the number eleven in them, eleven
years vs. eleven thousand years.
.... or eleven million years, or 110 million years, as long as I
state "11" together, I can keep the artificial association going.
And I don't
know who mentioned the Bermuda Triangle, but it
wasn't me, and it never will be me. That's just plain stupid.
It was me. Thank you. Do you have any documentation that
local-to-the-surface-of-the-Earth magnetic fields are disturbed
by non-surface effects?
David A. Smith
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| User: "John Schutkeker" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
15 Sep 2005 10:21:42 PM |
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"N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote in
news:2ueWe.22911$sx2.22413@fed1read02:
"Theory"? You have a mathematical model also?
Not just me. Zirin has a mathematical model, because magnetic buoyancy
is associated with alfven waves.
Not *just* metal. Not a "conductor", from what measurements I
have seen of surface magma.
The core is iron, buddy boy, not magma.
Which has *zero* to do with global pole reversal.
Not according to Tajima.
Any evidence of distortions on the local magnetic field
near-newly active magma pockets?
At the core/mantle boundary?
And?
I think this will make an excellent research project.
It is a COINCIDENCE that both reversal periods
happen to have the number eleven in them, eleven
years vs. eleven thousand years.
... or eleven million years, or 110 million years, as long as I
state "11" together, I can keep the artificial association going.
What part of the word COINCIDENCE don't you understand?
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| User: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \dlzc\ N: dlzc1 D:cox" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
15 Sep 2005 10:55:11 PM |
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Dear John Schutkeker:
"John Schutkeker" <jschutkeker@sbcglobal.net.nospam> wrote in
message
news:Xns96D2EDA65F2E9lkajehoriuasldfjknak@207.115.17.102...
"N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com>
wrote in
news:2ueWe.22911$sx2.22413@fed1read02:
"Theory"? You have a mathematical model also?
Not just me. Zirin has a mathematical model, because
magnetic buoyancy is associated with alfven waves.
Random word association?
Not *just* metal. Not a "conductor", from what
measurements I have seen of surface magma.
The core is iron, buddy boy, not magma.
Really? How did you manage to get the nickel, silicon, and so on
out?
Which has *zero* to do with global pole reversal.
Not according to Tajima.
Got a citation? Google yields nothing here...
Any evidence of distortions on the local magnetic field
near-newly active magma pockets?
At the core/mantle boundary?
At/near the surface of the Earth. Where we can be.
The distortions of the Sun's magnetic field due to sun spots and
CME extend far and wide.
And?
I think this will make an excellent research project.
OK.
It is a COINCIDENCE that both reversal periods
happen to have the number eleven in them, eleven
years vs. eleven thousand years.
... or eleven million years, or 110 million years, as long as
I
state "11" together, I can keep the artificial association
going.
What part of the word COINCIDENCE don't you understand?
So you don't have a citation for the "11,000", and you are only
trolling? Because the last recorded Earth magnetic pole reversal
was *much* more than "11,000" years ago.
David A. Smith
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| User: "John Schutkeker" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
16 Sep 2005 05:02:50 PM |
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"N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote in
news:zmrWe.253224$E95.155898@fed1read01:
Really? How did you manage to get the nickel, silicon, and so on
out?
Nickel is a conductor, and although the silicon is a contaminant, it
will only reduce conductivity, not kill it. In fact I have to thank you
for offering that as a good way to explain the factor of 20,000
difference from the sun's reversal period.
I was thinking density, but now that you mention it, the sun's fluid is
pretty thick, too. Maybe not too close to earth's liquid iron to
account for 20,000.
Which has *zero* to do with global pole reversal.
Not according to Tajima.
Got a citation? Google yields nothing here...
Either Phys Rev B or Phys Fluids. Sadly I've lost the paper, but it was
ca. '85.
Any evidence of distortions on the local magnetic field
near-newly active magma pockets?
At the core/mantle boundary?
At/near the surface of the Earth. Where we can be.
The distortions of the Sun's magnetic field due to sun spots and
CME extend far and wide.
And?
I think this will make an excellent research project.
OK.
When I post, I'm posting ideas for new work, not reiterations of prior
art. Prior art is good, but we can't build our research careers on it.
Research is done by starting with a partially formed idea and finishing
it. Typically the "formation quotient" of a new idea is extremely low.
My PhD project looked pretty stupid when I first started it, and so did
I, because I made a LOT of beginner's errors. But after five years, the
wrinkles are almost ironed out, and soon it will be ready for prime
time.
The sun-like spots project is my attempt to start looking towards a
post-doc.
It is a COINCIDENCE that both reversal periods
happen to have the number eleven in them, eleven
years vs. eleven thousand years.
... or eleven million years, or 110 million years, as long as
I
state "11" together, I can keep the artificial association
going.
What part of the word COINCIDENCE don't you understand?
So you don't have a citation for the "11,000", and you are only
trolling? Because the last recorded Earth magnetic pole reversal
was *much* more than "11,000" years ago.
In the OP, I said IIRC, and that was the first phrase deleted by all the
criticizers. I know I should have been a good boy and looked it up, but
the number is a lot less important that the fact that it exists and has
been measured. I didn't expect that leaving out a small detail would
cause a firestorm. In fact, Wormley just posted a note saying it is 0.2
- 0.25 Myr.
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
15 Sep 2005 10:49:57 PM |
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John Schutkeker wrote:
"N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote in
news:2ueWe.22911$sx2.22413@fed1read02:
"Theory"? You have a mathematical model also?
Not just me. Zirin has a mathematical model, because magnetic buoyancy
is associated with alfven waves.
Not *just* metal. Not a "conductor", from what measurements I
have seen of surface magma.
The core is iron, buddy boy, not magma.
Which has *zero* to do with global pole reversal.
Not according to Tajima.
Any evidence of distortions on the local magnetic field
near-newly active magma pockets?
At the core/mantle boundary?
And?
I think this will make an excellent research project.
It is a COINCIDENCE that both reversal periods
happen to have the number eleven in them, eleven
years vs. eleven thousand years.
... or eleven million years, or 110 million years, as long as I
state "11" together, I can keep the artificial association going.
What part of the word COINCIDENCE don't you understand?
As a matter of geological record, the Earth's magnetic field has
undergone numerous reversals of polarity. We can see this in the
magnetic patterns found in volcanic rocks, especially those recovered
from the ocean floors. In the last 10 million years, there have been,
on average, 4 or 5 reversals per million years. At other times in
Earth's history, for example during the Cretaceous era, there have been
much longer periods when no reversals occurred. Reversals are *not*
predictable and are certainly *not* periodic in nature. Hence we can only
speak about the average reversal interval.
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| User: "John Schutkeker" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
16 Sep 2005 05:05:03 PM |
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Sam Wormley <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in
news:FhrWe.331833$x96.29928@attbi_s72:
As a matter of geological record, the Earth's magnetic field has
undergone numerous reversals of polarity. We can see this in the
magnetic patterns found in volcanic rocks, especially those
recovered from the ocean floors. In the last 10 million years,
there have been, on average, 4 or 5 reversals per million years. At
other times in Earth's history, for example during the Cretaceous
era, there have been much longer periods when no reversals
occurred. Reversals are *not* predictable and are certainly *not*
periodic in nature. Hence we can only speak about the average
reversal interval.
Thanks for filling in the detail I neglected to google. What's your
specialty?
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
16 Sep 2005 09:17:49 PM |
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John Schutkeker wrote:
Sam Wormley <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in
news:FhrWe.331833$x96.29928@attbi_s72:
As a matter of geological record, the Earth's magnetic field has
undergone numerous reversals of polarity. We can see this in the
magnetic patterns found in volcanic rocks, especially those
recovered from the ocean floors. In the last 10 million years,
there have been, on average, 4 or 5 reversals per million years. At
other times in Earth's history, for example during the Cretaceous
era, there have been much longer periods when no reversals
occurred. Reversals are *not* predictable and are certainly *not*
periodic in nature. Hence we can only speak about the average
reversal interval.
Thanks for filling in the detail I neglected to google. What's your
specialty?
I'm more renaissance that specialty these days... And I can read and
learn.
.
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| User: "John Schutkeker" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
17 Sep 2005 08:22:34 AM |
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Sam Wormley <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in news:h1LWe.333913$x96.55115
@attbi_s72:
John Schutkeker wrote:
Thanks for filling in the detail I neglected to google. What's your
specialty?
I'm more renaissance that specialty these days... And I can read and
learn.
Are you freelance or tenured?
I can't believe those guys went after me for leaving out one stinking
number, even though I portected myself with the IIRC qualifier. What a
bunch of angry guys. I expected "Uncle" Al Schwartz's ridicule, but not so
many others.
So I got off my ***** and looked up those numbers, and got data that confirm
your Wikipedia citation, but over a longer time. hyperphysics.phy-
astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magearth.html confirms that the field has
reversed poles 71 times over 171 Myr.
That's a "period" of 0.240 Myr, which is >20x my original guess, but in the
same regima as your data, but with tighter error bars.
.
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
17 Sep 2005 08:52:00 AM |
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John Schutkeker wrote:
Sam Wormley <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in news:h1LWe.333913$x96.55115
@attbi_s72:
John Schutkeker wrote:
Thanks for filling in the detail I neglected to google. What's your
specialty?
I'm more renaissance that specialty these days... And I can read and
learn.
Are you freelance or tenured?
I can't believe those guys went after me for leaving out one stinking
number, even though I portected myself with the IIRC qualifier. What a
bunch of angry guys. I expected "Uncle" Al Schwartz's ridicule, but not so
many others.
So I got off my ***** and looked up those numbers, and got data that confirm
your Wikipedia citation, but over a longer time. hyperphysics.phy-
astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magearth.html confirms that the field has
reversed poles 71 times over 171 Myr.
That's a "period" of 0.240 Myr, which is >20x my original guess, but in the
same regima as your data, but with tighter error bars.
Research Scientist and Principal Investigator at Iowa State University
twenty some years... Now I'm teaching astronomy and developing
educational materials. I can't say I'm on fewer committees... as I'm
on five (chairing three) none of which are at Iowa State.
I'm one of the people who jumped on you for saying "It is a COINCIDENCE
that both reversal periods happen to have the number eleven in them, eleven
years vs. eleven thousand years", for you implied authority in that eleven
thousand years figure even though the original post contained "IIRC".
But that's all behind us now.
This newsgroup is fortunate to have Uncle Al participate as he is better
(even than his metaphorical "***** Meter" which gets uncreated from time
to time) at sorting through the crap.
Why these newsgroups attract so many cranks and trolls is still somewhat
surprising to me... but cranks, compared to a face to face "discussions",
can avoid bloodied noses in a virtual discussion here.
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| User: "John Schutkeker" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
17 Sep 2005 11:28:48 AM |
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Sam Wormley <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in news:4cVWe.335771$_o.13024
@attbi_s71:
Research Scientist and Principal Investigator at Iowa State University
twenty some years... Now I'm teaching astronomy and developing
educational materials. I can't say I'm on fewer committees... as I'm
on five (chairing three) none of which are at Iowa State.
Since all the curricula are on-line these days, why develop new course
materials when you can steal them from other schools' web sites? Whenever
I want the state of the art, I just go to MIT's web site for the course I'm
interested in.
Was Atanasoff at ISU or UI? My last mentor (sadly not Atanasoff!) went to
ISU, and it's a good school which goes unnoticed in the greater science
world at large.
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
17 Sep 2005 12:41:00 PM |
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John Schutkeker wrote:
Sam Wormley <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in news:4cVWe.335771$_o.13024
@attbi_s71:
Research Scientist and Principal Investigator at Iowa State University
twenty some years... Now I'm teaching astronomy and developing
educational materials. I can't say I'm on fewer committees... as I'm
on five (chairing three) none of which are at Iowa State.
Since all the curricula are on-line these days, why develop new course
materials when you can steal them from other schools' web sites? Whenever
I want the state of the art, I just go to MIT's web site for the course I'm
interested in.
Was Atanasoff at ISU or UI? My last mentor (sadly not Atanasoff!) went to
ISU, and it's a good school which goes unnoticed in the greater science
world at large.
Atanasoff was at ISU
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| User: "John Schutkeker" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
20 Sep 2005 07:45:22 AM |
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Sam Wormley <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in
news:MyYWe.336684$_o.11604@attbi_s71:
John Schutkeker wrote:
Sam Wormley <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in news:4cVWe.335771$_o.13024
@attbi_s71:
Was Atanasoff at ISU or UI? My last mentor (sadly not Atanasoff!)
went to ISU, and it's a good school which goes unnoticed in the
greater science world at large.
Atanasoff was at ISU
What were you PI on?
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
20 Sep 2005 08:41:53 AM |
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John Schutkeker wrote:
Sam Wormley <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in
news:MyYWe.336684$_o.11604@attbi_s71:
John Schutkeker wrote:
Sam Wormley <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in news:4cVWe.335771$_o.13024
@attbi_s71:
Was Atanasoff at ISU or UI? My last mentor (sadly not Atanasoff!)
went to ISU, and it's a good school which goes unnoticed in the
greater science world at large.
Atanasoff was at ISU
What were you PI on?
On just about everything... I suppose you are wanting to know about
some specific reaseach or development projects. One that I particularly
enjoyed was the development of direct sequence spread spectrum ultrasonic
inspection techniques.
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| User: "John Schutkeker" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
21 Sep 2005 08:40:52 AM |
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Sam Wormley <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in
news:BkUXe.354908$_o.200550@attbi_s71:
John Schutkeker wrote:
What were you PI on?
On just about everything... I suppose you are wanting to know about
some specific reaseach or development projects. One that I
particularly enjoyed was the development of direct sequence spread
spectrum ultrasonic inspection techniques.
That sounds more like engineering than physics, although certainly there's
plenty of overlap, especially in the early days of any particular
invention. I'm getting into celestial mechanics and plasma astrophysics.
How are you in those fields?
I used to be in fusion, but I bailed after many uncomfortable years of
being totally outclassed by all the super-brains around me. And then there
was Lidsky's article in "Tech Review," which was written at exactly the
same time I took his reactor design class. So he really rammed the
unfeasibility down our throats.
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
21 Sep 2005 09:40:42 AM |
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John Schutkeker wrote:
Sam Wormley <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in
news:BkUXe.354908$_o.200550@attbi_s71:
John Schutkeker wrote:
What were you PI on?
On just about everything... I suppose you are wanting to know about
some specific reaseach or development projects. One that I
particularly enjoyed was the development of direct sequence spread
spectrum ultrasonic inspection techniques.
That sounds more like engineering than physics, although certainly there's
plenty of overlap, especially in the early days of any particular
invention.
Yeah it was... it was the applications and statistical analysis that
was more science than engineering.
I'm getting into celestial mechanics and plasma astrophysics.
How are you in those fields?
No experience with the plasma astrophysics, but I can read
the literature. I can hold my own with celestial mechanics
calculations.
I used to be in fusion, but I bailed after many uncomfortable years of
being totally outclassed by all the super-brains around me. And then there
was Lidsky's article in "Tech Review," which was written at exactly the
same time I took his reactor design class. So he really rammed the
unfeasibility down our throats.
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| User: "Jeff Root" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
21 Sep 2005 03:46:41 PM |
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Sam Wormley wrote:
Research Scientist and Principal Investigator at Iowa State
University twenty some years... Now I'm teaching astronomy
and developing educational materials.
Were you involved in the Mid-Continent Space Development
Conferences? I'm not sure if there were more than the
five I attended:
1992 Holiday Inn
1993 Holiday Inn
1994 ISU Union
1995 Best Western
1996 ISU Union
I also attended the Iowa Space Conference in Iowa City
in 1994.
Someone named William J. Byrd, of the Institute for
Physical Research and Technology, gave me his card at
the 1996 conference.
I met Robert Forward at the 1995 conference. He asked me
to witness a journal entry describing a new tether design
which becomes stronger if it breaks.
Others I met included Seth Shostak of SETI and Anthony
Zuppero of Lockheed Martin Idaho Technologies. Probably
Bob Zubrin, too, although I saw him at so many different
locations I can't remember them all now.
I was given a tour of the Iowa Satellite Project facilities
in the aerospace engineering building by Darby Cooper, and
saw ISAT-1.
The students who organized the MCSDC made a Space version
of Pictionary, which inspired me to do the same, and when
I was in Huntsville somebody who was taking photos of Buzz
Aldrin wanted my game as a prop, so I got my picture in a
magazine at least pretending to play the game with Buzz.
I think it was in ISU Union, but possibly at a seventh
conference I couldn't think of when I put together the
list, that I met Jim Oberg and James Van Allen.
-- Jeff, in Minneapolis
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| User: "Charles Cagle" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
20 Sep 2005 12:04:27 AM |
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On 9/16/05 15:05, in article
Xns96D3B7F81D398lkajehoriuasldfjknak@207.115.17.102, "John Schutkeker"
<jschutkeker@sbcglobal.net.nospam> wrote:
Sam Wormley <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in
news:FhrWe.331833$x96.29928@attbi_s72:
As a matter of geological record, the Earth's magnetic field has
undergone numerous reversals of polarity. We can see this in the
magnetic patterns found in volcanic rocks, especially those
recovered from the ocean floors. In the last 10 million years,
there have been, on average, 4 or 5 reversals per million years. At
other times in Earth's history, for example during the Cretaceous
era, there have been much longer periods when no reversals
occurred. Reversals are *not* predictable and are certainly *not*
periodic in nature. Hence we can only speak about the average
reversal interval.
Thanks for filling in the detail I neglected to google. What's your
specialty?
Earthspots... The dipole reversal process isn't simply a disappearance and
then reappearance of a dipole magnetic field. The underlying phenomenal
aspect of a star is a large scale standing wave boson... Like a Del X E or
Del X H vector field. The Del X E vector field should display the
characteristics of a magnetic dipole while the Del X H should display the
characteristic signature of an electric dipole. The sun during solar
maximum develops large scale polar coronal holes which are indicative of
large scale electric field gradients in the polar regions. Voila..the sun
during solar maximum ... Is just as it should be if its primary flux loop
system as a standing wave boson was in the Del X H vector field mode.
The Earth's EMT (electromagnetotoroid a.k.a as the Earth's own primary
standing wave boson) also can be stimulated into a mode change to the Del X
H vector field mode and then it should behave like the Sun's EMT producing
large scale magnetic loop systems that should emerge and be present on the
surface of the planet. Such loop systems, if they should collide and
collapse like similar systems on the sun would likely be accompanied by the
sudden and catastrophic release of tremendous amounts of energy. Where such
loops intersected the surface one should expect intense gravitational charge
separation effects that would perhaps be manifested in processes that would
prevent the emission of photons... ''
C. Cagle
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| User: "John Schutkeker" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
20 Sep 2005 08:41:53 AM |
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Charles Cagle <skybolt99@singtech.com> wrote in
news:BF54E66B.93FF%skybolt99@singtech.com:
Earthspots... The underlying
phenomenal aspect of a star is a large scale standing wave boson...
Like a Del X E or Del X H vector field. The Del X E vector field
should display the characteristics of a magnetic dipole while the Del
X H should display the characteristic signature of an electric dipole.
The sun during solar maximum develops large scale polar coronal
holes which are indicative of large scale electric field gradients in
the polar regions. Voila..the sun during solar maximum ... Is just as
it should be if its primary flux loop system as a standing wave boson
was in the Del X H vector field mode.
I assume Del X means Curl. I'm wondering if this is a similar argument
to the one I've inferred from "Solar Astrophysics" by Zirin. He says
that magnetic flux lines rise through the solar surface because of
magnetic buoyancy, a result of Alfven waves. Perhaps an accumulation of
a vast number of Alfven bundles can lead to the large scale Curl H loops
your source discusses.
What source was that, incicdentally?
The Earth's EMT (electromagnetotoroid a.k.a as the Earth's own primary
standing wave boson) also can be stimulated into a mode change to the
Del X H vector field mode and then it should behave like the Sun's EMT
producing large scale magnetic loop systems that should emerge and be
present on the surface of the planet. Such loop systems, if they
should collide and collapse like similar systems on the sun would
likely be accompanied by the sudden and catastrophic release of
tremendous amounts of energy. Where such loops intersected the
surface one should expect intense gravitational charge separation
effects that would perhaps be manifested in processes that would
prevent the emission of photons... ''
I'm thinking that this is where the Sun and the Earth differ in their
behavior. Because Earth's field reversal period is a quarter million
years, whereas the sun's is eleven years, earth should release
correspondingly fewer of the magnetic loops you describe above.
Likewise, because the earth's H field is much smaller than the sun's,
the strength of each loop will be correspondingly weaker. So I take
issue with the above author's assertion that the energy release would be
either tremendous or catastrophic. The energy release might be quite of
quite familiar magnitudes.
A first approximation to the magnitude (at the surface) of the field
loops that the earth sheds would be to simply take the ratio of earth's
H field at the surface (0.5 Gauss) to the magnitude of the sun's field
at it's surface. Then multiply by the magnitude of the H loops shed by
the sun to get the answer. Thus H_el/H_es ~ H_sl/H_ss can be used to
calculate H_el roughly, where l=loop and s=surface, e=earth and s=sun.
Unfortunately, I don't know the values of the sun's magnetic field at
its surface, nor the strength of the magnetic loops thrown off by the
sun, so I can't make the above calculation.
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
20 Sep 2005 12:12:27 AM |
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Charles Cagle wrote:
On 9/16/05 15:05, in article
Xns96D3B7F81D398lkajehoriuasldfjknak@207.115.17.102, "John Schutkeker"
<jschutkeker@sbcglobal.net.nospam> wrote:
Sam Wormley <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in
news:FhrWe.331833$x96.29928@attbi_s72:
As a matter of geological record, the Earth's magnetic field has
undergone numerous reversals of polarity. We can see this in the
magnetic patterns found in volcanic rocks, especially those
recovered from the ocean floors. In the last 10 million years,
there have been, on average, 4 or 5 reversals per million years. At
other times in Earth's history, for example during the Cretaceous
era, there have been much longer periods when no reversals
occurred. Reversals are *not* predictable and are certainly *not*
periodic in nature. Hence we can only speak about the average
reversal interval.
Thanks for filling in the detail I neglected to google. What's your
specialty?
Earthspots... The dipole reversal process isn't simply a disappearance and
then reappearance of a dipole magnetic field. The underlying phenomenal
aspect of a star is a large scale standing wave boson... Like a Del X E or
Del X H vector field. The Del X E vector field should display the
characteristics of a magnetic dipole while the Del X H should display the
characteristic signature of an electric dipole. The sun during solar
maximum develops large scale polar coronal holes which are indicative of
large scale electric field gradients in the polar regions. Voila..the sun
during solar maximum ... Is just as it should be if its primary flux loop
system as a standing wave boson was in the Del X H vector field mode.
The Earth's EMT (electromagnetotoroid a.k.a as the Earth's own primary
standing wave boson) also can be stimulated into a mode change to the Del X
H vector field mode and then it should behave like the Sun's EMT producing
large scale magnetic loop systems that should emerge and be present on the
surface of the planet. Such loop systems, if they should collide and
collapse like similar systems on the sun would likely be accompanied by the
sudden and catastrophic release of tremendous amounts of energy. Where such
loops intersected the surface one should expect intense gravitational charge
separation effects that would perhaps be manifested in processes that would
prevent the emission of photons... ''
C. Cagle
Yes--This is the crackpot C. Cagle that has ***** in this newsgroup in
the past. "gravitational charge separation effects" seem like a new kind
of horse poop Charles.
Thanks for registering at crank dot net.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Singularity+Technologies%22+site%3Awww.crank.net
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| User: "Jonathan Silverlight" |
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| Title: Re: "Sunspots" in Earth's Core? |
20 Sep 2005 04:22:43 PM |
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In message <%SMXe.354406$_o.236959@attbi_s71>, Sam Wormley
<swormley1@mchsi.com> writes
Charles Cagle wrote:
C. Cagle
Yes--This is the crackpot C. Cagle that has ***** in this newsgroup in
the past. "gravitational charge separation effects" seem like a new kind
of horse poop Charles.
Thanks for registering at crank dot net.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Singularity+Technologies%22+site%3Awww
.crank.net
Long time no see, Chuckie!
We'll be getting posts from Aladar Stolmar next, unless he's died.
--
Boycott Yahoo!
Remove spam and invalid from address to reply.
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