Superluminal information transfer paradox



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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "John Schoenfeld"
Date: 26 Jan 2005 01:31:22 PM
Object: Superluminal information transfer paradox
I have a question about superluminal information transfer. It is known
that a superluminal signal may be transmitted, but that information
cannot accompany it.
In this case, the sender transmits a superluminal signal which causes a
random signal to be recorded by the receiver, superluminally. But since
the receiver recorded a random signal, the probability that it
precisely matches the senders signal is greater than 0. Thus, given
sufficient communications the probability that at least one set of
information gets superluminally transmitted approaches certainty.
To prohibit these possibilities, one could argue that the receiver will
never receive a matching signal superluminally. But withdrawing
possibilities from what the receiver can possibly record is to imply an
order to what it is being record - an order which can be exploited to
communicate information superluminally.
Thus, if the receiver records random signals then there is a
possibility of superluminal information transfer, if it is not random
then it's implicit order can be exploited to transfer information.
Isn't this a paradox?
.

User: "Bilge"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 26 Jan 2005 05:35:46 PM
John Schoenfeld:

I have a question about superluminal information transfer. It is known
that a superluminal signal may be transmitted, but that information
cannot accompany it.


That isn't correct. A signal carries information, so if information
can't propagte faster than light, then neither can a signal.

In this case, the sender transmits a superluminal signal which causes a
random signal to be recorded by the receiver, superluminally. But since


If you could cause a random event, you have created an algorithm for
generating random numbers. I leave you with a quote from von neumann
regarding such aspirations:
``Any one who considers arihmetic methods of producing random
digits is, of course, in a state of sin.''
.
User: "John Schoenfeld"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 27 Jan 2005 10:16:06 AM
Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:

I have a question about superluminal information transfer. It is

known

that a superluminal signal may be transmitted, but that information
cannot accompany it.


That isn't correct. A signal carries information, so if information
can't propagte faster than light, then neither can a signal.

The unwary reader is getting the impression that nothing can travel
faster than light, when in reality there is weak theoretical basis
(some QFT models) and strong empirical evidence to suggest otherwise.
The question is whether or not information can be transmitted
superluminally.
I outlined in my original post that if anything travels faster than
light, then information can sometimes be carried. This means that a
receiver has a non-zero chance of recording superluminal information
and it means that an infinite set of receivers would record all
superluminal (finite)-information instantaneously.
"Comparing datasets" is a common red herring raised by priests, but
such comparisons are unnecessary. The receiver always assumes the
information is valid at the physical layer (otherwise it would be
constrained by c/2). Half-duplex information receivers like televisions
and radios are perfect examples of this.

In this case, the sender transmits a superluminal signal which

causes a

random signal to be recorded by the receiver, superluminally. But

since


If you could cause a random event, you have created an algorithm

for

generating random numbers. I leave you with a quote from von neumann
regarding such aspirations:

``Any one who considers arihmetic methods of producing random
digits is, of course, in a state of sin.''

I will leave you with reality,
http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/4/7/8/1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/781199.stm
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/07/20/speed.of.light.ap/
.
User: "Bilge"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 28 Jan 2005 12:25:04 AM
John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:

I have a question about superluminal information transfer. It is

known

that a superluminal signal may be transmitted, but that information
cannot accompany it.


That isn't correct. A signal carries information, so if information
can't propagte faster than light, then neither can a signal.


The unwary reader is getting the impression that nothing can travel
faster than light,

That should be ``astute reader.''

when in reality there is weak theoretical basis
(some QFT models) and strong empirical evidence to suggest otherwise.


Bzzzzt. There is no theoretical basis for superluminal amything.

The question is whether or not information can be transmitted
superluminally.

The real question is why you (and others) find it more satisfying
to try and ``overthrow'' relativity at the level that relativity
is simply a fact rather than put the same effort into studying
enough basic physics to understand what the real questions are.
There is a lot of interesting physics in every subdiscipline, yet
the only ones that are constantly an issue on this newsgroup are
the ones that were answered long ago.

I outlined in my original post that if anything travels faster than
light, then information can sometimes be carried. This means that a
receiver has a non-zero chance of recording superluminal information
and it means that an infinite set of receivers would record all
superluminal (finite)-information instantaneously.


I know what you outlined. What you outlined is wrong.
[...]

"Comparing datasets" is a common red herring raised by priests, but
such comparisons are unnecessary. The receiver always assumes the
information is valid at the physical layer (otherwise it would be
constrained by c/2). Half-duplex information receivers like televisions
and radios are perfect examples of this.


I suggest, ``Kolmogorov Complexity and It's Applications,''
vitanyi and li, ``The Physics of Information,'' ed. Zurek, W.,
and john preskill's web site at caltech on quantum information.
.
User: "John Schoenfeld"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 28 Jan 2005 12:17:36 PM
Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:

I have a question about superluminal information transfer. It

is

known

that a superluminal signal may be transmitted, but that

information

cannot accompany it.


That isn't correct. A signal carries information, so if

information

can't propagte faster than light, then neither can a signal.


The unwary reader is getting the impression that nothing can travel
faster than light,


That should be ``astute reader.''

when in reality there is weak theoretical basis
(some QFT models) and strong empirical evidence to suggest

otherwise.


Bzzzzt. There is no theoretical basis for superluminal amything.

As I suggested in my previous post, some QFT models do not require the
alegbra of the causal completion of space-time to be equivalent to the
algebra of space-time. This means that under certain circumstances
Lorentzian maximum frame velocity does not apply. If one only considers
Relativity, this result is underivable.

The question is whether or not information can be transmitted
superluminally.


The real question is why you (and others) find it more satisfying
to try and ``overthrow'' relativity at the level that relativity
is simply a fact rather than put the same effort into studying
enough basic physics to understand what the real questions are.

You are now moving the argument into a personal one and attacking my
motivations instead of the content of my argument. If my argument is
wrong, so be it. But perhaps you would be better served elaborating on
your "superluminal anything is impossible" argument by explaining why
in the context of Local Quantum theory this result is not always hold
(I recommend you familiarize yourself with Haag-Kastler.)

There is a lot of interesting physics in every subdiscipline, yet
the only ones that are constantly an issue on this newsgroup are
the ones that were answered long ago.

This is a red herring which you are raising to divert the argument. If
I'm wrong then explain why this result does not always hold in Quantum
theory.

I outlined in my original post that if anything travels faster than
light, then information can sometimes be carried. This means that a
receiver has a non-zero chance of recording superluminal

information

and it means that an infinite set of receivers would record all
superluminal (finite)-information instantaneously.


I know what you outlined. What you outlined is wrong.

If you cannot show why, your argument is only opinion.

[...]

"Comparing datasets" is a common red herring raised by priests, but
such comparisons are unnecessary. The receiver always assumes the
information is valid at the physical layer (otherwise it would be
constrained by c/2). Half-duplex information receivers like

televisions

and radios are perfect examples of this.


I suggest, ``Kolmogorov Complexity and It's Applications,''
vitanyi and li, ``The Physics of Information,'' ed. Zurek, W.,
and john preskill's web site at caltech on quantum information.

I am very familiar with the work of Kolmogorov, and it does not help
your argument at all. Instead it is the basis of my argument, and that
is that the Kolmogorov zero-one law dictates superluminal information
exchange can occur as a tail event.
I also see you have omitted the links which I previously posted. I have
restored them below.

http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/4/7/8/1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/781199.stm
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/07/20/speed.of.light.ap/

Also, observations in astronomy show an apparant superluminal motion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superluminal_motion
.
User: "Bilge"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 28 Jan 2005 05:21:57 PM
John Schoenfeld:

Bilge wrote:

Bzzzzt. There is no theoretical basis for superluminal amything.


As I suggested in my previous post, some QFT models do not require the


Which for some reason, you failed to specify in detail.

alegbra of the causal completion of space-time to be equivalent to the
algebra of space-time. This means that under certain circumstances
Lorentzian maximum frame velocity does not apply. If one only considers
Relativity, this result is underivable.


There's nothing I find less illuminating than a lot of words that
mean nothingm either because the words are nothing but strings of
soundbites or because the wors are taken out any context that
makes them meaningful. The ``algebra of the causal completion of
space-time'' is: [Insert mathematical definition of the algebra here].
If you think the algebra of spacetime is something other than the
poincare algebra then you think the algebra is: [Insert mathematical
definition of the algebra here].
After doing that, explain the circumstances arising from the
inequivalence of those two algebras lead to the results you assert. My
responses are based on the information you supply and what you've supplied
so far looks like jargon and soundbites. If you expect a response based on
something other than the jargon and soundbites supplied, supply something
other than jargon and soundbites. I'm not obligated to become a telepath
just to refute the misuse of terminology.

The real question is why you (and others) find it more satisfying
to try and ``overthrow'' relativity at the level that relativity
is simply a fact rather than put the same effort into studying
enough basic physics to understand what the real questions are.


You are now moving the argument into a personal one and attacking my
motivations instead of the content of my argument. If my argument is


You argument is content free precisely for the reasons I stated.
You use a lot of jargon that doesn't mean anything. Spend the time
studying physics first.

wrong, so be it. But perhaps you would be better served elaborating on
your "superluminal anything is impossible" argument by explaining why
in the context of Local Quantum theory this result is not always hold
(I recommend you familiarize yourself with Haag-Kastler.)

Which axiom do you contend supports you?

There is a lot of interesting physics in every subdiscipline, yet
the only ones that are constantly an issue on this newsgroup are
the ones that were answered long ago.


This is a red herring which you are raising to divert the argument. If
I'm wrong then explain why this result does not always hold in Quantum
theory.


You are wrong because the result does hold in quantum field theory.
What I've said is not a red herring because you have made an unwarranted
inference for exactly the reasons I've stated. You are connecting sound-
bites to avoid studying physics and have no idea what those soundbites
mean. Your reference to ``priests'' indicates your motivations to
``overthrow'' relativity in spite of the fact that the very jargon you
are using comes from members of the ``clergy.''
[...]

I know what you outlined. What you outlined is wrong.


If you cannot show why, your argument is only opinion.

That's okay with me. What I'm aruing with is your opinion and I have no
intention of trying to figure out every possible way you could have
misunderstood that upon which you've based your opinion. Once you state
something specific, I'll address it specifically. The fact that, in
another response, you say that you are unfamiliar with shannon's work,
only tells you me have no idea what information means. It's rather
difficult to know anything about information theory without being familiar
with the work done by the person who invented information theory.


[...]

"Comparing datasets" is a common red herring raised by priests, but
such comparisons are unnecessary. The receiver always assumes the
information is valid at the physical layer (otherwise it would be
constrained by c/2). Half-duplex information receivers like

televisions

and radios are perfect examples of this.


I suggest, ``Kolmogorov Complexity and It's Applications,''
vitanyi and li, ``The Physics of Information,'' ed. Zurek, W.,
and john preskill's web site at caltech on quantum information.


I am very familiar with the work of Kolmogorov,

Which in what way obviates the textbook I suggested?

and it does not help your argument at all.

I agree that what you know about the work of kolmogorov doesn't
help my argument, but I never suggested that it did or that what
you knew about kolmogorov's work was relevent. In fact, kolmogorov's
work isn't relevant to the reason I suggested that textbook.

Instead it is the basis of my argument, and that is that the Kolmogorov
zero-one law dictates superluminal information exchange can occur as
a tail event.


The basis of your argument is flawed and the textbook I suggested
might even help illuminate you, since the book is concerned with
complexity and information theory. Kolmogorov's zero-one law only
states that a tail event has a probability of either zero or one of
occurring. It says nothing about what defines an event in quantum
field theory. Your entire argument hinges on erroneously equivocating
tail events in a distribution, field amplitudes and information.

I also see you have omitted the links which I previously posted. I have
restored them below.


That's no surprise. Crackpots always do that, as if ``restoring''
the links somehow strengthens an argument that isn't supported
by the links. The links don't support anything you've said. The
fact that have given no argument explaining why those links support
what you've said, I have no way of determining why you think those
articles support your argument. I'll leave the links if it makes
you feel better, despite being irrelevant.

http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/4/7/8/1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/781199.stm
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/07/20/speed.of.light.ap/


Also, observations in astronomy show an apparant superluminal motion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superluminal_motion


Just in case english isn't your first language, the word ``apparent''
means ``not necessarily as it appears'', which in this context means
something that it looks like superluminal motion, but really isn't
superluminal motion.
.
User: "John Schoenfeld"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 28 Jan 2005 08:10:55 PM
Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:

Bilge wrote:


Bzzzzt. There is no theoretical basis for superluminal

amything.


As I suggested in my previous post, some QFT models do not require

the


Which for some reason, you failed to specify in detail.

alegbra of the causal completion of space-time to be equivalent to

the

algebra of space-time. This means that under certain circumstances
Lorentzian maximum frame velocity does not apply. If one only

considers

Relativity, this result is underivable.


There's nothing I find less illuminating than a lot of words that
mean nothingm either because the words are nothing but strings of
soundbites or because the wors are taken out any context that
makes them meaningful. The ``algebra of the causal completion of
space-time'' is: [Insert mathematical definition of the algebra

here].
There exists a C*-algebra A of the causal completion of a Minkowski
space S and a C*-algebra B of S such that A != B. You know nothing,
idiot.

If you think the algebra of spacetime is something other than the
poincare algebra then you think the algebra is: [Insert mathematical
definition of the algebra here].

Contumaciously untutored idiot.

After doing that, explain the circumstances arising from the
inequivalence of those two algebras lead to the results you assert.

My

responses are based on the information you supply and what you've

supplied

so far looks like jargon and soundbites. If you expect a response

based on

something other than the jargon and soundbites supplied, supply

something

other than jargon and soundbites. I'm not obligated to become a

telepath

just to refute the misuse of terminology.

The real question is why you (and others) find it more

satisfying

to try and ``overthrow'' relativity at the level that relativity
is simply a fact rather than put the same effort into studying
enough basic physics to understand what the real questions are.


You are now moving the argument into a personal one and attacking

my

motivations instead of the content of my argument. If my argument

is


You argument is content free precisely for the reasons I stated.
You use a lot of jargon that doesn't mean anything. Spend the time
studying physics first.

Idiot.

wrong, so be it. But perhaps you would be better served elaborating

on

your "superluminal anything is impossible" argument by explaining

why

in the context of Local Quantum theory this result is not always

hold

(I recommend you familiarize yourself with Haag-Kastler.)


Which axiom do you contend supports you?

All are consistent, idiot.
"Algebraic Quantum Field Theory".

There is a lot of interesting physics in every subdiscipline, yet
the only ones that are constantly an issue on this newsgroup are
the ones that were answered long ago.


This is a red herring which you are raising to divert the argument.

If

I'm wrong then explain why this result does not always hold in

Quantum

theory.


You are wrong because the result does hold in quantum field

theory.
Idiocy protected by ignorance.

What I've said is not a red herring because you have made an

unwarranted

inference for exactly the reasons I've stated. You are connecting

sound-

bites to avoid studying physics and have no idea what those

soundbites

mean. Your reference to ``priests'' indicates your motivations to
``overthrow'' relativity in spite of the fact that the very jargon

you

are using comes from members of the ``clergy.''

Nothing, idiot.

[...]

I know what you outlined. What you outlined is wrong.


If you cannot show why, your argument is only opinion.


That's okay with me. What I'm aruing with is your opinion and I

have no

intention of trying to figure out every possible way you could have
misunderstood that upon which you've based your opinion. Once you

state

something specific, I'll address it specifically. The fact that, in
another response, you say that you are unfamiliar with shannon's

work,

only tells you me have no idea what information means. It's rather
difficult to know anything about information theory without being

familiar

with the work done by the person who invented information theory.


[...]

"Comparing datasets" is a common red herring raised by priests,

but

such comparisons are unnecessary. The receiver always assumes

the

information is valid at the physical layer (otherwise it would

be

constrained by c/2). Half-duplex information receivers like

televisions

and radios are perfect examples of this.


I suggest, ``Kolmogorov Complexity and It's Applications,''
vitanyi and li, ``The Physics of Information,'' ed. Zurek, W.,
and john preskill's web site at caltech on quantum information.


I am very familiar with the work of Kolmogorov,


Which in what way obviates the textbook I suggested?

and it does not help your argument at all.


I agree that what you know about the work of kolmogorov doesn't
help my argument, but I never suggested that it did or that what
you knew about kolmogorov's work was relevent. In fact, kolmogorov's
work isn't relevant to the reason I suggested that textbook.

Instead it is the basis of my argument, and that is that the

Kolmogorov

zero-one law dictates superluminal information exchange can occur

as

a tail event.


The basis of your argument is flawed and the textbook I suggested
might even help illuminate you, since the book is concerned with
complexity and information theory. Kolmogorov's zero-one law only
states that a tail event has a probability of either zero or one of
occurring. It says nothing about what defines an event in quantum
field theory. Your entire argument hinges on erroneously equivocating
tail events in a distribution, field amplitudes and information.

I also see you have omitted the links which I previously posted. I

have

restored them below.


That's no surprise. Crackpots always do that, as if ``restoring''
the links somehow strengthens an argument that isn't supported
by the links. The links don't support anything you've said. The
fact that have given no argument explaining why those links support
what you've said, I have no way of determining why you think those
articles support your argument. I'll leave the links if it makes
you feel better, despite being irrelevant.

http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/4/7/8/1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/781199.stm
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/07/20/speed.of.light.ap/


Also, observations in astronomy show an apparant superluminal

motion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superluminal_motion


Just in case english isn't your first language, the word

``apparent''

means ``not necessarily as it appears'', which in this context means
something that it looks like superluminal motion, but really isn't
superluminal motion.

God is the Ghost universe, Priest?
.
User: "Bilge"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 28 Jan 2005 11:25:18 PM
John Schoenfeld:

There exists a C*-algebra A of the causal completion of a Minkowski
space S and a C*-algebra B of S such that A != B. You know nothing,
idiot.


And you seem unable to remedy that by providing the details
that go with your sound bites.
.
User: "John Schoenfeld"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 29 Jan 2005 03:57:49 PM
Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:

There exists a C*-algebra A of the causal completion of a Minkowski
space S and a C*-algebra B of S such that A != B. You know nothing,
idiot.


And you seem unable to remedy that by providing the details
that go with your sound bites.

Causal domination of space-time observable is an unnecessary axiom.
.
User: "Bilge"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 29 Jan 2005 06:50:59 PM
John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:

There exists a C*-algebra A of the causal completion of a Minkowski
space S and a C*-algebra B of S such that A != B. You know nothing,
idiot.


And you seem unable to remedy that by providing the details
that go with your sound bites.

Causal domination of space-time observable is an unnecessary axiom.

Then don't assume that, whatever that soundbite means. Why are you
telling me this? Go find a UFO discussion form if you want to talk
in soundbites.
.
User: "John Schoenfeld"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 29 Jan 2005 08:55:19 PM
Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:

There exists a C*-algebra A of the causal completion of a

Minkowski

space S and a C*-algebra B of S such that A != B. You know

nothing,

idiot.


And you seem unable to remedy that by providing the details
that go with your sound bites.

Causal domination of space-time observable is an unnecessary axiom.


Then don't assume that, whatever that soundbite means. Why are you
telling me this? Go find a UFO discussion form if you want to talk
in soundbites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space#Causal_structure
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Dominance.html
.
User: "Bilge"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 29 Jan 2005 11:23:27 PM
John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:

There exists a C*-algebra A of the causal completion of a

Minkowski

space S and a C*-algebra B of S such that A != B. You know

nothing,

idiot.


And you seem unable to remedy that by providing the details
that go with your sound bites.

Causal domination of space-time observable is an unnecessary axiom.


Then don't assume that, whatever that soundbite means. Why are you
telling me this? Go find a UFO discussion form if you want to talk
in soundbites.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space#Causal_structure
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Dominance.html


What's your point? Posting a bunch of random url's that don't
support anything you've said and don't tell me anything I don't
already know, seems to be pointless.
.
User: "John Schoenfeld"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 30 Jan 2005 02:57:13 AM
Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:

There exists a C*-algebra A of the causal completion of a

Minkowski

space S and a C*-algebra B of S such that A != B. You know

nothing,

idiot.


And you seem unable to remedy that by providing the

details

that go with your sound bites.

Causal domination of space-time observable is an unnecessary

axiom.


Then don't assume that, whatever that soundbite means. Why are

you

telling me this? Go find a UFO discussion form if you want to

talk

in soundbites.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space#Causal_structure
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Dominance.html


What's your point? Posting a bunch of random url's that don't
support anything you've said and don't tell me anything I don't
already know, seems to be pointless.

Causal[3] domination[4] of space-time[2] observable[1] is an
unnecessary axiom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space#Causal_structure
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Dominance.html
If ignorance were a disability, you'd be on the full pension.
.
User: "Bilge"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 30 Jan 2005 06:02:42 AM
John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:

There exists a C*-algebra A of the causal completion of a

Minkowski

space S and a C*-algebra B of S such that A != B. You know

nothing,

idiot.


And you seem unable to remedy that by providing the

details

that go with your sound bites.

Causal domination of space-time observable is an unnecessary

axiom.


Then don't assume that, whatever that soundbite means. Why are

you

telling me this? Go find a UFO discussion form if you want to

talk

in soundbites.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space#Causal_structure
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Dominance.html


What's your point? Posting a bunch of random url's that don't
support anything you've said and don't tell me anything I don't
already know, seems to be pointless.


Causal[3] domination[4] of space-time[2] observable[1] is an
unnecessary axiom.


In other words, you don't have any point at all. Get a clue and learn
something other tha how to post random soundbites and jargon.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space#Causal_structure
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Dominance.html
If ignorance were a disability, you'd be on the full pension.

If you study hard, you might get as far as ignorance and be able to
retire, too. On the other hand, at the rate you're going you'll be living
on the Aid to Poseurs Without Synapses handouts forever. Post again when
you can say something other than you've restored a url that isn't relevant.
.
User: "John Schoenfeld"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 30 Jan 2005 03:50:37 PM
Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:

There exists a C*-algebra A of the causal completion of

a

Minkowski

space S and a C*-algebra B of S such that A != B. You

know

nothing,

idiot.


And you seem unable to remedy that by providing the

details

that go with your sound bites.

Causal domination of space-time observable is an

unnecessary

axiom.


Then don't assume that, whatever that soundbite means. Why

are

you

telling me this? Go find a UFO discussion form if you want to

talk

in soundbites.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space#Causal_structure
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Dominance.html


What's your point? Posting a bunch of random url's that don't
support anything you've said and don't tell me anything I don't
already know, seems to be pointless.


Causal[3] domination[4] of space-time[2] observable[1] is an
unnecessary axiom.


In other words, you don't have any point at all. Get a clue and

learn

something other tha how to post random soundbites and jargon.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space#Causal_structure
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Dominance.html
If ignorance were a disability, you'd be on the full pension.


If you study hard, you might get as far as ignorance and be able to
retire, too. On the other hand, at the rate you're going you'll be

living

on the Aid to Poseurs Without Synapses handouts forever. Post again

when

you can say something other than you've restored a url that isn't

relevant.
To borrow a quote - I can only explain it to you, I cannot understand
it for you.
.
User: "Bilge"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 03 Feb 2005 04:27:21 AM
John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:

There exists a C*-algebra A of the causal completion of

a

Minkowski

space S and a C*-algebra B of S such that A != B. You

know

nothing,

idiot.


And you seem unable to remedy that by providing the

details

that go with your sound bites.

Causal domination of space-time observable is an

unnecessary

axiom.


Then don't assume that, whatever that soundbite means. Why

are

you

telling me this? Go find a UFO discussion form if you want to

talk

in soundbites.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space#Causal_structure
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Dominance.html


What's your point? Posting a bunch of random url's that don't
support anything you've said and don't tell me anything I don't
already know, seems to be pointless.


Causal[3] domination[4] of space-time[2] observable[1] is an
unnecessary axiom.


In other words, you don't have any point at all. Get a clue and

learn

something other tha how to post random soundbites and jargon.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space#Causal_structure
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Dominance.html
If ignorance were a disability, you'd be on the full pension.


If you study hard, you might get as far as ignorance and be able to
retire, too. On the other hand, at the rate you're going you'll be

living

on the Aid to Poseurs Without Synapses handouts forever. Post again

when

you can say something other than you've restored a url that isn't

relevant.

To borrow a quote - I can only explain it to you, I cannot understand
it for you.


Before you consider explaining anything to anyone, you'll need to
understand it for you. Just like the typical crackpot, you post a
lot of jargon and then either start posturing or just run away
if you have to actually fill in any details. Don't post a bunch of
jargon if you can't spell it out in detail or understand it well
enough to deal with anything you can't find packaged as a soundbite
to use out of context. If you knew what you were talking about, I'm
quite certain you would be more than happy to destroy each objection
with a concrete, mathematical example. So far, you're 0 for N.
.
User: "John Schoenfeld"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 08 Feb 2005 02:16:22 PM
Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:

There exists a C*-algebra A of the causal

completion of

a

Minkowski

space S and a C*-algebra B of S such that A != B.

You

know

nothing,

idiot.


And you seem unable to remedy that by providing

the

details

that go with your sound bites.

Causal domination of space-time observable is an

unnecessary

axiom.


Then don't assume that, whatever that soundbite means.

Why

are

you

telling me this? Go find a UFO discussion form if you

want to

talk

in soundbites.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space#Causal_structure

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Dominance.html


What's your point? Posting a bunch of random url's that

don't

support anything you've said and don't tell me anything I

don't

already know, seems to be pointless.


Causal[3] domination[4] of space-time[2] observable[1] is an
unnecessary axiom.


In other words, you don't have any point at all. Get a clue and

learn

something other tha how to post random soundbites and jargon.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space#Causal_structure
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Dominance.html
If ignorance were a disability, you'd be on the full pension.


If you study hard, you might get as far as ignorance and be

able to

retire, too. On the other hand, at the rate you're going you'll

be

living

on the Aid to Poseurs Without Synapses handouts forever. Post

again

when

you can say something other than you've restored a url that isn't

relevant.

To borrow a quote - I can only explain it to you, I cannot

understand

it for you.


Before you consider explaining anything to anyone, you'll need to
understand it for you. Just like the typical crackpot, you post a
lot of jargon and then either start posturing or just run away
if you have to actually fill in any details. Don't post a bunch of
jargon if you can't spell it out in detail or understand it well
enough to deal with anything you can't find packaged as a soundbite
to use out of context. If you knew what you were talking about, I'm
quite certain you would be more than happy to destroy each objection
with a concrete, mathematical example. So far, you're 0 for N.

Even if I wasn't a crackpot, why would I waste my time tutoring you?
Read what I said, properly.
.
User: "Bilge"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 10 Feb 2005 07:20:38 AM
John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:


Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:

There exists a C*-algebra A of the causal

completion of

a

Minkowski

space S and a C*-algebra B of S such that A != B.

You

know

nothing,

idiot.


And you seem unable to remedy that by providing

the

details

that go with your sound bites.

Causal domination of space-time observable is an

unnecessary

axiom.


Then don't assume that, whatever that soundbite means.

Why

are

you

telling me this? Go find a UFO discussion form if you

want to

talk

in soundbites.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space#Causal_structure

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Dominance.html


What's your point? Posting a bunch of random url's that

don't

support anything you've said and don't tell me anything I

don't

already know, seems to be pointless.


Causal[3] domination[4] of space-time[2] observable[1] is an
unnecessary axiom.


In other words, you don't have any point at all. Get a clue and

learn

something other tha how to post random soundbites and jargon.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space#Causal_structure
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Dominance.html
If ignorance were a disability, you'd be on the full pension.


If you study hard, you might get as far as ignorance and be

able to

retire, too. On the other hand, at the rate you're going you'll

be

living

on the Aid to Poseurs Without Synapses handouts forever. Post

again

when

you can say something other than you've restored a url that isn't

relevant.

To borrow a quote - I can only explain it to you, I cannot

understand

it for you.


Before you consider explaining anything to anyone, you'll need to
understand it for you. Just like the typical crackpot, you post a
lot of jargon and then either start posturing or just run away
if you have to actually fill in any details. Don't post a bunch of
jargon if you can't spell it out in detail or understand it well
enough to deal with anything you can't find packaged as a soundbite
to use out of context. If you knew what you were talking about, I'm
quite certain you would be more than happy to destroy each objection
with a concrete, mathematical example. So far, you're 0 for N.


Even if I wasn't a crackpot, why would I waste my time tutoring you?


But you are, so the question is meaningless.

Read what I said, properly.

Stop calling me ``properly.''
.
User: "Creighton Hogg"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 10 Feb 2005 08:09:59 AM
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Bilge wrote:

John Schoenfeld:

Read what I said, properly.


Stop calling me ``properly.''

"Surely you can't be serious!"
.
















User: "robert j. kolker"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 27 Jan 2005 10:57:13 AM
John Schoenfeld wrote:


The unwary reader is getting the impression that nothing can travel
faster than light, when in reality there is weak theoretical basis
(some QFT models) and strong empirical evidence to suggest otherwise.
The question is whether or not information can be transmitted
superluminally.

Produce a reproduced vetted instance of a message of two or more bits
sent correctly faster than light. I await with bated breadth.
Bob Kolker
.



User: "CWatters"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 26 Jan 2005 02:29:23 PM
"John Schoenfeld" <j.schoenfeld@programmer.net> wrote in message
news:1106767882.131829.149120@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

But since
the receiver recorded a random signal, the probability that it
precisely matches the senders signal is greater than 0. Thus, given
sufficient communications the probability that at least one set of
information gets superluminally transmitted approaches certainty.

I tossed a coin in the air just now and sent a telepathic message telling
you which way up it landed. You have a greater than 0 chance of guessing the
right answer but how will you ever know if you guessed correctly?
.
User: "John Schoenfeld"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 26 Jan 2005 03:09:06 PM
CWatters wrote:

"John Schoenfeld" <j.schoenfeld@programmer.net> wrote in message
news:1106767882.131829.149120@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

But since
the receiver recorded a random signal, the probability that it
precisely matches the senders signal is greater than 0. Thus, given
sufficient communications the probability that at least one set of
information gets superluminally transmitted approaches certainty.


I tossed a coin in the air just now and sent a telepathic message

telling

you which way up it landed. You have a greater than 0 chance of

guessing the

right answer but how will you ever know if you guessed correctly?

A causal relationship in your scenario has not been established.
.


User: "robert j. kolker"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 26 Jan 2005 01:35:11 PM


To prohibit these possibilities, one could argue that the receiver will
never receive a matching signal superluminally. But withdrawing
possibilities from what the receiver can possibly record is to imply an
order to what it is being record - an order which can be exploited to
communicate information superluminally.

How? One piece of random crap looks just like another piece of random crap?
Bob Kolker
.

User: "Uncle Al"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 26 Jan 2005 01:41:45 PM
John Schoenfeld wrote:


I have a question about superluminal information transfer.

[snip]
It violates causality, idiot.

Thus, if the receiver records random signals then there is a
possibility of superluminal information transfer, if it is not random
then it's implicit order can be exploited to transfer information.
Isn't this a paradox?

Idiot. Think before you speak.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
.
User: "Will Janoschka"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 26 Jan 2005 02:59:57 PM
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:41:45, Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote:

John Schoenfeld wrote:


I have a question about superluminal information transfer.

[snip]

It violates causality, idiot.

Thus, if the receiver records random signals then there is a
possibility of superluminal information transfer, if it is not random
then it's implicit order can be exploited to transfer information.
Isn't this a paradox?


Idiot. Think before you speak.

Hey Unc can you give me a URL
for causality? I get lots of religous stuff.
More if I try for a proof of causality..,.....
thanks. -will- :@)
.
User: "Uncle Al"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 26 Jan 2005 04:03:37 PM
Will Janoschka wrote:


On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:41:45, Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote:

John Schoenfeld wrote:


I have a question about superluminal information transfer.

[snip]

It violates causality, idiot.

Thus, if the receiver records random signals then there is a
possibility of superluminal information transfer, if it is not random
then it's implicit order can be exploited to transfer information.
Isn't this a paradox?


Idiot. Think before you speak.

Hey Unc can you give me a URL
for causality? I get lots of religous stuff.
More if I try for a proof of causality..,.....
thanks. -will- :@)

Google
causality relativity 72,500 hits
causality relativity equations 30,600 hits
The arrow of time is defined by increasing entropy and more strongly
by angular momentum.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
.


User: "John Schoenfeld"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 26 Jan 2005 03:43:35 PM
Uncle Al wrote:

John Schoenfeld wrote:


I have a question about superluminal information transfer.

[snip]

It violates causality, idiot.

Thus, if the receiver records random signals then there is a
possibility of superluminal information transfer, if it is not

random

then it's implicit order can be exploited to transfer information.
Isn't this a paradox?


Idiot. Think before you speak.

You misspoke. That there exist Haag-Kastler deducable QFT models not
requiring a causal completion equivalency to observable space-time
algebra implies that causal superluminal signalling can occur given no
information exchange. So what did the sender cause the receiver to
record, blithering idiot? If random then there is non-zero probability
of superluminal information exchange (paradox), if not random then
transmission contains information (paradox). Show the error or go back
to Church.

--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf

.
User: "CWatters"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 26 Jan 2005 04:16:40 PM
"John Schoenfeld" <j.schoenfeld@programmer.net> wrote in message
news:1106775815.160825.93660@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

If random then there is non-zero probability
of superluminal information exchange

No that's the mistake right there. It's a non-zero probability of a chance
event occurring NOT a non zero-probability that information exchange
occurred.
.
User: "John Schoenfeld"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 26 Jan 2005 04:46:13 PM
CWatters wrote:

"John Schoenfeld" <j.schoenfeld@programmer.net> wrote in message
news:1106775815.160825.93660@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

If random then there is non-zero probability
of superluminal information exchange


No that's the mistake right there. It's a non-zero probability of a

chance

event occurring NOT a non zero-probability that information exchange
occurred.

What you seem to neglect is that this chance event was caused by a
superluminal signal transmitted by the sender.
.
User: "Sam Wormley"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 26 Jan 2005 05:12:13 PM
John Schoenfeld wrote:


What you seem to neglect is that this chance event was caused by a
superluminal signal transmitted by the sender.

There are no superluminal signals
.

User: "robert j. kolker"

Title: Re: Superluminal information transfer paradox 26 Jan 2005 06:51:29 PM
John Schoenfeld wrote:


What you seem to neglect is that this chance event was caused by a
superluminal signal transmitted by the sender.

And what information did it convey? One piece of random crap looks
pretty much like any other piece of random crap.
Bob Kolker


.






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