Science > Physics > Telepathy: Do the Most Creative Physicists/Mathematicians Have It?
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Science > Physics |
| User: |
"OsherD" |
| Date: |
26 Oct 2005 11:05:29 PM |
| Object: |
Telepathy: Do the Most Creative Physicists/Mathematicians Have It? |
From Osher Doctorow
COPYRIGHT NOTICE
Telepathy: Do the Most Creative Physicists/Mathematicians Have It?
Copyright By Owner Osher Doctorow Ph.D.
First Published 2005
I'll first mention 2 things that I think almost all scientists and
mathematicians and philosophers as well as engineers will probably
agree on:
A. There isn't at present sufficient experimental evidence to convince
people who don't have or claim to have telepathy that telepathy exists
on earth among human beings.
B. If telepathy exists on earth among human beings, then at best it's
"transient" or not under sufficient scientific or theoretical control
to enable clear, highly repeatable experiments.
In this first (and hopefully not the only) posting on this topic, I'd
like to argue that telepathy nevertheless fills in a theoretical gap
which is a paradox, namely that "independent discoveries or inventions"
at the most creative levels aren't really due to "similar sociocultural
situations".
The most common argument to explain Sir Isaac Newton's and Leibniz'
simultaneous or independent near-simultaneous discovery/invention of
calculus in its inverse differential-integral sense is that "social
situations" and "cultural situations" were similar in England and (if I
recall correctly) Prussia/Germany. Anthropologists and sociologists
and other social scientists for example are often fond of claiming that
great inventions occur when sociocultures or nations or civilizations
are "ripe" for them, and even Marx claimed the same thing about
revolutions.
There is a considerable body of counter-indications to this. First of
all, very few scientists, mathematicians, engineers, philosophers are
the first to make discoveries in whole fields of knowledge. My current
estmate is that roughly 95-99% are Ingenious Imitators and less than 5%
are "Creative Geniuses" who're the first to invent/discover whole new
fields of knowledge like calculus or mechanics. Looking through arXiv
and Front For the Mathematics arXiv/ArXiv papers, I'd estimate that
less than 5% are at the level of Creative Genius, and more than 95% are
"Ingenious Imitation" with the qualification than imitators in science
and the other fields mentioned do tend to make one slight improvement
in whatever they're imitating.
Secondly, in comparing human beings and their ability to discriminate
the Individual from the Plurality, in the sense of recognizing the
Individual in every Plurality and the Pluralities to which every
Individual belongs and being able to readily say which is which, there
is arguably close to 0% of such ability among human beings now and
historically, although for the sake of argument we could choose some
figure like "less than 5% of people have this ability" even among
scientists/mathematicians/etc. In other words, not only are most
scientists (etc.) imitators but most of them don't even know the
difference between a serious Individual contribution to knowledge and
the Pluralities' contributions which constitute the body of research
literature which they're building on (although of course Individuals
did the Pluralities' research - which is itself somewhat obscure to
researchers often).
Osher Doctorow
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| User: "OsherD" |
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| Title: Re: Telepathy: Do the Most Creative Physicists/Mathematicians Have It? |
26 Oct 2005 11:14:42 PM |
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From Osher Doctorow
As a homework assignment so to speak, take a look at Einstein, Dirac,
Sir Isaac Newton, Pierre De Fermat and their biographies. No wait,
regular biographies tend to have similar form (for example U. St.
Andrews in Scotland tends to give the same forms to biographies of
mathematicians). Look up some original biographies which have some
more specific titles than "Biography of ___" in their titles. For
example, "Einstein as Creative," or "Einstein as Revolutionary," or
something similar.
Osher Doctorow
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| User: "OsherD" |
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| Title: Re: Telepathy: Do the Most Creative Physicists/Mathematicians Have It? |
27 Oct 2005 12:34:29 AM |
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From Osher Doctorow
How would a Creative Genius recognize the difference between a work of
Creative Genius and one of Ingenious Imitation, remembering my
qualification that Ingenious Imitation can include one minor
modification of previous work? Well, he/she (he for short in what
follows) could figure out what seems minor or major, but it would be
nice to have a crosscheck, especially if the particular problem hasn't
yet been solved completely.
In psychology, "salience" includes novelty, pattern, complexity,
intensity - things that attract human attention. Now look at the first
word: novelty. Is there any similarity between "novelty" and
Creativity? Yes. A Creative Genius, or perhaps more generally a
Creative person, introduces a major new idea or discovery or invention.
Could it be that "attention" and "invention" are closely related, at
the level of important improvements? Quite so, I think. But it isn't
just paying close attention to symbols or syntax - Ingenious Imitators
are very good at that. There's something about novelty, which induces
attention but also can involve invention, which is unusual in some way.
Notice that for a thing to be "novel" or "new", it has to be Rare - a
Rare Event. After all, if something happens all the time, to take an
extreme case, it's hardly novel.
But Rare Events are related to Probable Causation. And Probable
Causation is arguably related to Creative invention.
Does it look as though we're getting deeper and deeper into confusion?
Well, maybe, but it all has a "ring of truth" about it so to speak.
There is one level at which this work may intersect the Mainstream.
Physics Intuition, and for mathematicians Mathematics Intuition, really
exist. If we used the word Physics Intuition for example instead of
Telepathy, there wouldn't be any dispute except perhaps for the
Mediocre people or those Ingenious Imitators who don't even contribute
anything new except for names.
But there may be something more. Does a "novelty intuition" exist?
Well, here's a homework assignment so to speak. When if ever was the
last time that you had a "strong intuition" that something novel was
about to happen or was happening? Did Sir Isaac Newton and Leibniz
have a "novelty intuition" about calculus? Did Sir Isaac have a
novelty intuition about mechanics? Did Pierre de Fermat have a
novelty intuition about probability, which he co-discovered with
Pascal, or modern number theory which he discovered/invented?
I remind you that Sir Isaac and Pierre de Fermat were similar in
personalities at least up to Sir Isaac's successful rise to influence.
They were both extremely secretive about methods and even seclusive.
Both weren't interested in publication (Sir Isaac until relatively
late, Fermat almost always). Fermat wasn't interested in power
although he was a Magistrate, and in his arguments with Descartes he
was in fact victimzied by the professional Descartes' power "trip" even
though he was smarter than Descartes (Fermat discovered
analytic/Cartesian geometry before Descartes and also upstaged
Descartes on the speed of light through water, etc.). See the standard
biographies for these, although Bell also has an especially good
biography on Fermat.
If a person is frequently experiencing novelty (of an invention type),
is he/she as likely to be as interested in power-materialism as
otherwise? Is he as likely to be as interested in
sensation-materialism and nepotism-friendship-materialism ("friendship
above Ethics")? Think about that as part of the "homework". Also
think about Dirac's lack of oral verbal communication, Einstein's long
absences from the public in his research, his refusal to be President
of Israel (which would have given him at least power-materialism and to
some extent greed-materialism which usually goes along with political
office), etc.
Osher Doctorow
Osher Doctorow
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| User: "Puppet_Sock" |
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| Title: Re: Telepathy: Do the Most Creative Physicists/Mathematicians Have It? |
27 Oct 2005 11:10:10 AM |
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OsherD wrote:
[noise about telepathy]
In one of his novels, Kurt Vonnegut relates the story of
a scientist who was convinced that brilliant people got
their ideas telephathically. He slaved away over the brains
of various deceased persons, looking for a difference between
those of brilliant people and those of not brilliant people.
And he found it. He found a pea-sized extra lobe in the brains
of all brilliant people, and was able to prove that if this
was removed, brilliant persons stopped having brilliant
ideas. That it was indeed a kind of "brain radio" receiver.
The night before he was to accept his Nobel prize, he threw
himself off the top of a tall building. You see, he realized
that if his theory was true, it proved he deserved no credit,
as he himself had a radio receiver through which he must have
gotten all his brilliant ideas. So he didn't have the idea
himself and so did not deserve the prize.
Oh well, what the hell?
Socks
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| User: "OsherD" |
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| Title: Re: Telepathy: Do the Most Creative Physicists/Mathematicians Have It? |
27 Oct 2005 03:04:54 PM |
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From Osher Doctorow
Puppet_Sock typed:
In one of his novels, Kurt Vonnegut relates the story of
a scientist who was convinced that brilliant people got
their ideas telephathically
Puppet_Sock, you almost got the right idea, but your tendency not to
read got in your way. You began your reply with bracketed (my quotes)
"noise about telepathy" which is such a dead giveaway about people with
little verbal ability. It actually hurts non-verbal people to read
words, while mathematical symbols often manage to partly get through
their brains by association with pictures. As for the idea of your
Kurt Vonnegut story, it's like saying that if we replaced "telepathy"
with "physics intuition" (which undoubtedly involves part(s) of the
brain), then the scientist would have thrown himself off the roof
because it was his brain's intuition regions/processes rather than "he"
which were responsible for discoveries.
I'll let you know when you reach Creative Genius level. Try aging
about 40 years, going through 40 years of poverty or borderline poverty
while maintaining your interest in physics and hopefully mathematics,
don't maintain perfect physical health (it gives people the illusion of
healthy brains), and marry a psychologist or psychiatrist if you can.
Also take about a dozen English writing courses if you can. If I'm
not around in 40 years and you've done all that, you have a fighting
chance.
Osher Doctorow
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| User: "Puppet_Sock" |
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| Title: Re: Telepathy: Do the Most Creative Physicists/Mathematicians Have It? |
27 Oct 2005 03:34:09 PM |
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OsherD wrote:
[grandiose example of "not getting the point" snipped]
In today's news we learn the number one title that was
rejected for the most recent Harry Potter novel.
_Harry Potter and the Egregious Non-Sequitur_.
Socks
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| User: "Lefty" |
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| Title: Re: Telepathy: Do the Most Creative Physicists/Mathematicians Have It? |
29 Oct 2005 11:21:11 PM |
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OsherD wrote:
[grandiose example of "not getting the point" snipped]
In today's news we learn the number one title that was
rejected for the most recent Harry Potter novel.
_Harry Potter and the Egregious Non-Sequitur_.
Socks
Why dont you guys quit babbling and help me unify relativity with QM ? How
about that for an idea ?
What do you want me to do ? Beg ?
I already stated that I dont know jack ***** about physics compared to your
hydraulic strength brains, so help me out here and lets rewire the Lorentz
Transform. How bout it ?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Telepathy: Do the Most Creative Physicists/Mathematicians Have It? |
27 Oct 2005 12:24:42 AM |
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So you're saying that when engineers sue each other about who has
invented something first, the explanation is likely to be telepathy
rather than theft?
OsherD wrote:
From Osher Doctorow
COPYRIGHT NOTICE
Telepathy: Do the Most Creative Physicists/Mathematicians Have It?
Copyright By Owner Osher Doctorow Ph.D.
First Published 2005
I'll first mention 2 things that I think almost all scientists and
mathematicians and philosophers as well as engineers will probably
agree on:
A. There isn't at present sufficient experimental evidence to convince
people who don't have or claim to have telepathy that telepathy exists
on earth among human beings.
B. If telepathy exists on earth among human beings, then at best it's
"transient" or not under sufficient scientific or theoretical control
to enable clear, highly repeatable experiments.
In this first (and hopefully not the only) posting on this topic, I'd
like to argue that telepathy nevertheless fills in a theoretical gap
which is a paradox, namely that "independent discoveries or inventions"
at the most creative levels aren't really due to "similar sociocultural
situations".
The most common argument to explain Sir Isaac Newton's and Leibniz'
simultaneous or independent near-simultaneous discovery/invention of
calculus in its inverse differential-integral sense is that "social
situations" and "cultural situations" were similar in England and (if I
recall correctly) Prussia/Germany. Anthropologists and sociologists
and other social scientists for example are often fond of claiming that
great inventions occur when sociocultures or nations or civilizations
are "ripe" for them, and even Marx claimed the same thing about
revolutions.
There is a considerable body of counter-indications to this. First of
all, very few scientists, mathematicians, engineers, philosophers are
the first to make discoveries in whole fields of knowledge. My current
estmate is that roughly 95-99% are Ingenious Imitators and less than 5%
are "Creative Geniuses" who're the first to invent/discover whole new
fields of knowledge like calculus or mechanics. Looking through arXiv
and Front For the Mathematics arXiv/ArXiv papers, I'd estimate that
less than 5% are at the level of Creative Genius, and more than 95% are
"Ingenious Imitation" with the qualification than imitators in science
and the other fields mentioned do tend to make one slight improvement
in whatever they're imitating.
Secondly, in comparing human beings and their ability to discriminate
the Individual from the Plurality, in the sense of recognizing the
Individual in every Plurality and the Pluralities to which every
Individual belongs and being able to readily say which is which, there
is arguably close to 0% of such ability among human beings now and
historically, although for the sake of argument we could choose some
figure like "less than 5% of people have this ability" even among
scientists/mathematicians/etc. In other words, not only are most
scientists (etc.) imitators but most of them don't even know the
difference between a serious Individual contribution to knowledge and
the Pluralities' contributions which constitute the body of research
literature which they're building on (although of course Individuals
did the Pluralities' research - which is itself somewhat obscure to
researchers often).
Osher Doctorow
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| User: "OsherD" |
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| Title: Re: Telepathy: Do the Most Creative Physicists/Mathematicians Have It? |
27 Oct 2005 12:55:51 AM |
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From Osher Doctorow
maestro@ultrapiano.com typed:
So you're saying that when engineers sue each other about who has
invented something first, the explanation is likely to be telepathy
rather than theft?
This is an interesting question, though I would have liked to present
things slower. However, I will try to answer it. In my opinion, it
depends on how Creative the engineering invention is. If it has the
Creativity of the light bulb (Edison) or of optimal control
(Pontrjagin, etc.), then I'd say that telepathy becomes more plausible
in my opinion. If it's just another type of laser that works a little
better than the last, I wouldn't think that telepathy is a likely
explanation.
Speaking of this, I think that lawsuits regarding priorities of
inventions do tend to be frivolous and quite possibly because (a) they
take up the public's time and money, (b) the inventions may be
simultaneous but "coincidental", (c) the inventions if Creative enough
may be telepathic (especially if they were invented around the same
time). I'd go even further and say that the U.K.'s libel laws are
frivolous and that most libel laws in general are frivolous. If
somebody calls me a Dirty Russian or Dirty Jew, why should I care if I
am/were a Russian or Jew? If I really wanted to, I could call him
back a Dirty Anti-Russian or Dirty Anti-Jew. Wow! Definitely
cathartic :>)
Osher Doctorow
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| User: "tadchem" |
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| Title: Re: Telepathy: Do the Most Creative Physicists/Mathematicians Have It? |
27 Oct 2005 07:46:57 AM |
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Two workmen, having ascended the same steps to the same height, and
learned the same information along the way, independently recognize
exactly what and where the next step has to be, and both design it.
Their minds have been preconditioned by the common journey and,
standing in the same place, both see the next logical (nearly
inevitable) step.
No telepathy. Just similarity.
Newton and Leibniz both knew all the math that was prequisite to the
development of fluxions/calculus, and both were prepared, able, and
willing to take the next step.
Credit goes to the one who published first (Newton), but the work of
the second does not go unnoticed (we use Leibniz' term 'calculus').
"It is amazing how much you can accomplish when it doesn't matter who
gets the credit." - Harry S Truman
Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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| User: "OsherD" |
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| Title: Re: Telepathy: Do the Most Creative Physicists/Mathematicians Have It? |
27 Oct 2005 03:17:33 PM |
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From Osher Doctorow
Tom Davidson (tadchem) typed:
Newton and Leibniz both knew all the math that was prequisite to the
development of fluxions/calculus, and both were prepared, able, and
willing to take the next step.
Don't worry about it any more, Tom. From this posting of yours and
your previous postings that I've read, I'm glad that I started this
thread to at least clear the air as to which readers are definitely not
Creative Genius and can't read worth a damn. Try a few dozen English
writing and reading courses for a start before you get back to me.
Also, move to Florida from Virginia. Virginia education stinks in
general.
Osher Doctorow
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| User: "Lefty" |
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| Title: Re: Telepathy: Do the Most Creative Physicists/Mathematicians Have It? |
27 Oct 2005 10:04:13 AM |
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The most common argument to explain Sir Isaac Newton's and Leibniz'
simultaneous or independent near-simultaneous discovery/invention of
calculus in its inverse differential-integral sense is that "social
situations" and "cultural situations" were similar in England and (if I
recall correctly) Prussia/Germany. Anthropologists and sociologists
and other social scientists for example are often fond of claiming that
great inventions occur when sociocultures or nations or civilizations
are "ripe" for them, and even Marx claimed the same thing about
revolutions.
Historically, many people had performed some brute force calculations which
looked alot like calculus, but were not quite calculus. They were looking at
volumes of things and all kinds of stuff. Many people worked on such
problems and this probably inspired Newton and Leibnitz.
Same thing happened with Watson-Crick, and Pauling.
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| User: "OsherD" |
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| Title: Re: Telepathy: Do the Most Creative Physicists/Mathematicians Have It? |
27 Oct 2005 03:10:46 PM |
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From Osher Doctorow
Lefty typed:
volumes of things and all kinds of stuff. Many people worked on such
problems and this probably inspired Newton and Leibnitz
Lefty, don't worry about it. There's no danger of your being a
Creative Genius. Get back to me when you learn how to read.
Osher Doctorow
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| User: "Lefty" |
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| Title: Re: Telepathy: Do the Most Creative Physicists/Mathematicians Have It? |
29 Oct 2005 10:39:43 PM |
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Lefty typed:
volumes of things and all kinds of stuff. Many people worked on such
problems and this probably inspired Newton and Leibnitz
Lefty, don't worry about it. There's no danger of your being a
Creative Genius. Get back to me when you learn how to read.
Osher Doctorow
I dont know what happened to that post - I think I was replying to a
different thread, but it went to the wrong place ?
Probably operator error.
Weird.
Anyhow - I did read what ya wrote and think it's amazing, but could not
think of any constructive feedback.
I dont know what to think about that ESP stuff.
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| User: "Lefty" |
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| Title: Re: Telepathy: Do the Most Creative Physicists/Mathematicians Have It? |
29 Oct 2005 11:18:08 PM |
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I dont know what happened to that post - I think I was replying to a
different thread, but it went to the wrong place ?
Probably operator error.
Weird.
Anyhow - I did read what ya wrote and think it's amazing, but could not
think of any constructive feedback.
I dont know what to think about that ESP stuff.
Actually, I had a brain fart.
Both Newton and Leibnitz had lots of the latest research at their disposal.
people were doing all kinds of neat things to find volumes by brute force
geometry, using rate of change. People were doing all kinds of calculus
problems but they did not have calculus.
So, both Newton and Leibnitz basically both stood on the shoulders of
others, achieved a type of grand unification of all these problems, and
created calculus which works nicely for all kinds of things.
There was a need for it, and people were aware of the works of others.
Now, if they would have developed calculus simultaneously while living in
complete isolation from each other, then you'd have an argument.
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