Teleportation



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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "Whitestar"
Date: 11 Feb 2004 12:23:34 AM
Object: Teleportation
Hi everybody.
I have always been intrigued by the concept of teleportation and with
the recent advances in quantum teleportation at the University of
Innsbruck, the results are encouraging. However, it should be noted
that this form of teleportation doesn't allow physicists to teleport
the photon itself--only its properties to another, remote photon.
Here is the site:
http://www.aip.org/physnews/graphics/html/teleport.htm
I'm an aspiring science fiction writer and what I want to do in my
story is achieve teleportation by actually teleporting the people
themselves, not their properties. So, I began thinking about how I
was going to do that. I thought about creating a teleporter that
works by converting matter into energy and reconverting the energy
back into matter and being able to pass through walls and ceilings,
sort of like radio signals.
Speaking of matter and energy, in 1998 researchers at Stanford
University's Linear Accelerator Center successfully converted energy
into matter. This feat was accomplished by using lasers and
incredibly strong electromagnetic fields to change ordinary light
into matter. The results of this experiment may allow for the
development of variety of technological gadgets. One such development
could be matter/energy transporters or food replicators that are
commonly seen in some of our favorite science fiction programs.
For more information, check out the following site:
http://www.geog.ouc.bc.ca/conted/on...10/210_2_2.html
The thing that concerns me about this concept has some philosophical
issues to address. For instance, if the mass of a person is converted
into energy in an uncontrolled way (eg, collision with a very large
amount of antimatter, destroying every proton, neutron and electron
in your body) then the information that is encoded on the gamma rays
(usually) released will be lost.
In a controlled conversion, you could in principle convert the entire
body to energy one particle at a time, and then read off the whole
state and transmit it. But there are two problems with this:
1) A tremendous amount of data needs to be sent. In the book entitled,
"The Physics of Star Trek" author Lawerence Krauss calculates the
approximate amount, about 10,000 light-years to the center of the
galaxy!
2) The amount of time this takes.
However, current thought in neuroscience is that the
"personailty/consciousness" is not at all QM, and thus there is no
need to break someone down to a subatomic level and read their
Quantum State. Instead, it is simply enough to know there chemical
structure - and copy it at that resolution. This means there are no
"no cloning" problems, much less data to handle, and no need to
destroy the original (given sufficient technology to do the
scanning). This would allow you to create "clones" - you could send
copies of yourself "over the radio", while you stay safe at home.
(Greg Egan's Diaspora talks about this at an AI level - the AI
programs clone themselves and send themselves all over the place)
Now if you turn each person into energy, you get a cloud of gamma rays
expanding outwards. There is nothing that would make them
spontaneously reform the person - even if you reflected them
backwards, they would not neccessarily create the original particles.
It is much more likely that teleportation would involve sending the
information that can be gleaned from the gamma rays, and then having
the information used by a base station to construct the person, more
mechanically.
In my view, when your body is destroy, you die. End of story. What
comes out of the teleporter is an exact copy, with all your memories
etc, and no knowledge that it isn't you, but it isn't. No one would
ever notice the problem, so it only affects you when it happens.
Unless, if you believe in souls, there are "conservation of souls"
problems to deal with - does the same sould follow the body around?
While in an energy state, there is no consciousness, no heart to beat.
Hence, once matter has converted into energy, the person who first
underwent the procedure has cease to exist and once the energy is
reconverted back into matter, that individual will be replaced by a
replica who will literally be born into existence.
What does everybody else thinks?
Whitestar
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User: "Jevan"

Title: Re: Teleportation 12 Feb 2004 08:19:23 AM
"Whitestar" <starfighterleague@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote in
message news:4029ca66$1_1@127.0.0.1...

Hi everybody.


I have always been intrigued by the concept of teleportation and with
the recent advances in quantum teleportation at the University of
Innsbruck, the results are encouraging. However, it should be noted
that this form of teleportation doesn't allow physicists to teleport
the photon itself--only its properties to another, remote photon.
Here is the site:

http://www.aip.org/physnews/graphics/html/teleport.htm

I'm an aspiring science fiction writer and what I want to do in my
story is achieve teleportation by actually teleporting the people
themselves, not their properties. So, I began thinking about how I
was going to do that. I thought about creating a teleporter that
works by converting matter into energy and reconverting the energy
back into matter and being able to pass through walls and ceilings,
sort of like radio signals.


Speaking of matter and energy, in 1998 researchers at Stanford
University's Linear Accelerator Center successfully converted energy
into matter. This feat was accomplished by using lasers and
incredibly strong electromagnetic fields to change ordinary light
into matter. The results of this experiment may allow for the
development of variety of technological gadgets. One such development
could be matter/energy transporters or food replicators that are
commonly seen in some of our favorite science fiction programs.

For more information, check out the following site:

http://www.geog.ouc.bc.ca/conted/on...10/210_2_2.html


The thing that concerns me about this concept has some philosophical
issues to address. For instance, if the mass of a person is converted
into energy in an uncontrolled way (eg, collision with a very large
amount of antimatter, destroying every proton, neutron and electron
in your body) then the information that is encoded on the gamma rays
(usually) released will be lost.


In a controlled conversion, you could in principle convert the entire
body to energy one particle at a time, and then read off the whole
state and transmit it. But there are two problems with this:


1) A tremendous amount of data needs to be sent. In the book entitled,
"The Physics of Star Trek" author Lawerence Krauss calculates the
approximate amount, about 10,000 light-years to the center of the
galaxy!

2) The amount of time this takes.


However, current thought in neuroscience is that the
"personailty/consciousness" is not at all QM, and thus there is no
need to break someone down to a subatomic level and read their
Quantum State. Instead, it is simply enough to know there chemical
structure - and copy it at that resolution. This means there are no
"no cloning" problems, much less data to handle, and no need to
destroy the original (given sufficient technology to do the
scanning). This would allow you to create "clones" - you could send
copies of yourself "over the radio", while you stay safe at home.
(Greg Egan's Diaspora talks about this at an AI level - the AI
programs clone themselves and send themselves all over the place)


Now if you turn each person into energy, you get a cloud of gamma rays
expanding outwards. There is nothing that would make them
spontaneously reform the person - even if you reflected them
backwards, they would not neccessarily create the original particles.
It is much more likely that teleportation would involve sending the
information that can be gleaned from the gamma rays, and then having
the information used by a base station to construct the person, more
mechanically.


In my view, when your body is destroy, you die. End of story. What
comes out of the teleporter is an exact copy, with all your memories
etc, and no knowledge that it isn't you, but it isn't. No one would
ever notice the problem, so it only affects you when it happens.
Unless, if you believe in souls, there are "conservation of souls"
problems to deal with - does the same sould follow the body around?

While in an energy state, there is no consciousness, no heart to beat.
Hence, once matter has converted into energy, the person who first
underwent the procedure has cease to exist and once the energy is
reconverted back into matter, that individual will be replaced by a
replica who will literally be born into existence.

What does everybody else thinks?

Whitestar



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Hmm.... yes I think there's a problem indeed because of infinite complexity.
After all, each cell could be any position, all sorts of different elements
comprising them, and not only that is also the spin on an electron, any
charge (things can be charged you know), what other properties have to
replicate? Velocity of the particles.. And even then since you not only have
atoms but also rays eg gamma rays, or light waves, sound waves, etc what if
you duplicate a space you have to duplicate everything existing inside it
(like to duplicate a person), (and hope that it actually come out a live
duplicate), since you don't really know what exactly needs to be duplicated
as a minimum requirement. EG: If you just copy the DNA (cloning, apart from
that it not allow to do) you still won't get the same person. Also you get
errors even in cloning (ref experiments with cloning animals). So like
someone born anew which combine from both parents you also get additional
'errors' or random changes (some) but with cloning from one source you can
still get these 'errors'.
I think what we need is ideally a new approach, some way of duplicate
something without attempt to copy the constituent particles.
For example you can photocopy an a4 sheet of paper without actually
searching for each individual dot on the paper and copy its position.
Similarly for 3d printing, you can 3d scan something, then 3d print it layer
by layer using different materials ('inks') in the 3d printer. But you don't
get the same materials as before, just the internal+external 3d shape.
Maybe there some higher level method even beyond 'photocopying' that someone
can think up, somehow, that performs 'duplication' at a higher level, that
would be applicable then to teleport people.
Well for example the only thing I thought of was, the thing to do with, if
you travel far enough in space, eventually you come across the parallel
universe, simply because of probability that every state exists if you
travel far enough in an (assumingly) infinite universe then eventually it
must (perhaps) start to repeat itself, similarly not only for parallel
universes but every imaginable universe & rule and reality you could imagine
or like to have be so, must exist, somewhere; then they calculated how far
in metres you'd have to travel to reach the first parallel "solar system",
based on the number of atoms/ particles contained within it and possible
permutations thereof.
So in that method, you'd just travel far enough until you find a parallel
universe wherein the duplicate is made. You wouldn't actually have to
duplicate it, you'd just search for a slightly modified solar-system where
it exists as already existing.
Just like, if you want tea, go to a place that sells it or already has it to
give away or is there, rather than complain about why you haven't got it.
Maybe there's other 'higher level' idea as well, that might accomplish
teleportation? Any ideas?
.

User: "Doug Smith"

Title: Re: Teleportation 11 Feb 2004 01:54:17 AM
"Whitestar" <starfighterleague@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote in
message news:4029ca66$1_1@127.0.0.1...

In my view, when your body is destroy, you die. End of story. What
comes out of the teleporter is an exact copy, with all your memories
etc, and no knowledge that it isn't you, but it isn't. No one would
ever notice the problem, so it only affects you when it happens.
Unless, if you believe in souls, there are "conservation of souls"
problems to deal with - does the same sould follow the body around?

While in an energy state, there is no consciousness, no heart to beat.
Hence, once matter has converted into energy, the person who first
underwent the procedure has cease to exist and once the energy is
reconverted back into matter, that individual will be replaced by a
replica who will literally be born into existence.

What does everybody else thinks?

Whitestar

I've thought about teleportation before, and ran into this same
philosophical dilemma. Let's say that the copy of Sam's (or insert other
name here) body acts, thinks, etc. like Sam did before the teleportation.
Like you said, to the outside world, the "new" Sam would be the same person.
OTOH, Sam's consciousness has actually been cloned and destroyed.
(digression - I do believe in a soul that continues to exist after the body
is gone, but I don't think that that soul would necessarily return to a body
that just so happens to be a clone of the soul's original home. More on that
next.) Anyway, to Sam, it would be as if he died. In essence, that which was
Sam is gone, and all that remains is a perfect copy. Until we understand
what consciousness is and how it's stored, teleportation of humans would be
nothing but a copy-delete-paste process.
- Doug -
.
User: "Therion Ware"

Title: Re: Teleportation 11 Feb 2004 11:28:30 AM
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 02:54:17 -0500 in sci.physics, Doug Smith ("Doug
Smith" <gtg089b@prism.gatech.edu>) said, directing the reply to
sci.physics


"Whitestar" <starfighterleague@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote in
message news:4029ca66$1_1@127.0.0.1...

In my view, when your body is destroy, you die. End of story. What
comes out of the teleporter is an exact copy, with all your memories
etc, and no knowledge that it isn't you, but it isn't. No one would
ever notice the problem, so it only affects you when it happens.
Unless, if you believe in souls, there are "conservation of souls"
problems to deal with - does the same sould follow the body around?

While in an energy state, there is no consciousness, no heart to beat.
Hence, once matter has converted into energy, the person who first
underwent the procedure has cease to exist and once the energy is
reconverted back into matter, that individual will be replaced by a
replica who will literally be born into existence.

What does everybody else thinks?

Whitestar

I've thought about teleportation before, and ran into this same
philosophical dilemma. Let's say that the copy of Sam's (or insert other
name here) body acts, thinks, etc. like Sam did before the teleportation.
Like you said, to the outside world, the "new" Sam would be the same person.
OTOH, Sam's consciousness has actually been cloned and destroyed.
(digression - I do believe in a soul that continues to exist after the body
is gone, but I don't think that that soul would necessarily return to a body
that just so happens to be a clone of the soul's original home. More on that
next.) Anyway, to Sam, it would be as if he died. In essence, that which was
Sam is gone, and all that remains is a perfect copy. Until we understand
what consciousness is and how it's stored, teleportation of humans would be
nothing but a copy-delete-paste process.

On the other hand a copy that's indistinguishable from the original
*is* the original!
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.
User: "Gregory L. Hansen"

Title: Re: Teleportation 11 Feb 2004 11:59:18 AM
In article <fiqj201rr75uj5qsh0gbk7puppc7ejmrfv@4ax.com>,
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:

I've thought about teleportation before, and ran into this same
philosophical dilemma. Let's say that the copy of Sam's (or insert other
name here) body acts, thinks, etc. like Sam did before the teleportation.
Like you said, to the outside world, the "new" Sam would be the same person.
OTOH, Sam's consciousness has actually been cloned and destroyed.
(digression - I do believe in a soul that continues to exist after the body
is gone, but I don't think that that soul would necessarily return to a body
that just so happens to be a clone of the soul's original home. More on that
next.) Anyway, to Sam, it would be as if he died. In essence, that which was
Sam is gone, and all that remains is a perfect copy. Until we understand
what consciousness is and how it's stored, teleportation of humans would be
nothing but a copy-delete-paste process.


On the other hand a copy that's indistinguishable from the original
*is* the original!

Not if you're the original.
--
"What are the possibilities of small but movable machines? They may or
may not be useful, but they surely would be fun to make."
-- Richard P. Feynman, 1959
.
User: "Therion Ware"

Title: Re: Teleportation 11 Feb 2004 12:09:14 PM
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:59:18 +0000 (UTC) in sci.physics, Gregory L.
Hansen (glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen)) said,
directing the reply to sci.physics

In article <fiqj201rr75uj5qsh0gbk7puppc7ejmrfv@4ax.com>,
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:

I've thought about teleportation before, and ran into this same
philosophical dilemma. Let's say that the copy of Sam's (or insert other
name here) body acts, thinks, etc. like Sam did before the teleportation.
Like you said, to the outside world, the "new" Sam would be the same person.
OTOH, Sam's consciousness has actually been cloned and destroyed.
(digression - I do believe in a soul that continues to exist after the body
is gone, but I don't think that that soul would necessarily return to a body
that just so happens to be a clone of the soul's original home. More on that
next.) Anyway, to Sam, it would be as if he died. In essence, that which was
Sam is gone, and all that remains is a perfect copy. Until we understand
what consciousness is and how it's stored, teleportation of humans would be
nothing but a copy-delete-paste process.


On the other hand a copy that's indistinguishable from the original
*is* the original!


Not if you're the original.

I imagine that a copy that was indistinguishable from the original
would agree.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.
User: "Gregory L. Hansen"

Title: Re: Teleportation 11 Feb 2004 12:18:54 PM
In article <0trk201sqoisekpm94adkq04r297b2t2d5@4ax.com>,
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:



On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:59:18 +0000 (UTC) in sci.physics, Gregory L.
Hansen (glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen)) said,
directing the reply to sci.physics



In article <fiqj201rr75uj5qsh0gbk7puppc7ejmrfv@4ax.com>,
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:

I've thought about teleportation before, and ran into this same
philosophical dilemma. Let's say that the copy of Sam's (or insert other
name here) body acts, thinks, etc. like Sam did before the teleportation.
Like you said, to the outside world, the "new" Sam would be the same person.
OTOH, Sam's consciousness has actually been cloned and destroyed.
(digression - I do believe in a soul that continues to exist after the body
is gone, but I don't think that that soul would necessarily return to a body
that just so happens to be a clone of the soul's original home. More on that
next.) Anyway, to Sam, it would be as if he died. In essence, that which was
Sam is gone, and all that remains is a perfect copy. Until we understand
what consciousness is and how it's stored, teleportation of humans would be
nothing but a copy-delete-paste process.


On the other hand a copy that's indistinguishable from the original
*is* the original!


Not if you're the original.


I imagine that a copy that was indistinguishable from the original
would agree.

Nope. The copy that was indistinguishable from the original would think
he was the original and got teleported. The original would still be back
at the other end wondering why he didn't go anywhere.
Or in some scenarios, he'd be dead. But leaving the original alive
more clearly shows the difference.
--
"The polhode rolls without slipping on the herpolhode lying in the
invariable plane." -- Goldstein, Classical Mechanics 2nd. ed., p207.
.
User: "Therion Ware"

Title: Re: Teleportation 12 Feb 2004 06:41:14 AM
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:18:54 +0000 (UTC) in sci.physics, Gregory L.
Hansen (glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen)) said,
directing the reply to sci.physics

In article <0trk201sqoisekpm94adkq04r297b2t2d5@4ax.com>,
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:



On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:59:18 +0000 (UTC) in sci.physics, Gregory L.
Hansen (glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen)) said,
directing the reply to sci.physics



In article <fiqj201rr75uj5qsh0gbk7puppc7ejmrfv@4ax.com>,
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:

I've thought about teleportation before, and ran into this same
philosophical dilemma. Let's say that the copy of Sam's (or insert other
name here) body acts, thinks, etc. like Sam did before the teleportation.
Like you said, to the outside world, the "new" Sam would be the same person.
OTOH, Sam's consciousness has actually been cloned and destroyed.
(digression - I do believe in a soul that continues to exist after the body
is gone, but I don't think that that soul would necessarily return to a body
that just so happens to be a clone of the soul's original home. More on that
next.) Anyway, to Sam, it would be as if he died. In essence, that which was
Sam is gone, and all that remains is a perfect copy. Until we understand
what consciousness is and how it's stored, teleportation of humans would be
nothing but a copy-delete-paste process.


On the other hand a copy that's indistinguishable from the original
*is* the original!


Not if you're the original.


I imagine that a copy that was indistinguishable from the original
would agree.


Nope. The copy that was indistinguishable from the original would think
he was the original and got teleported.

Precisely! That's the point.

The original would still be back
at the other end wondering why he didn't go anywhere.

Or in some scenarios, he'd be dead. But leaving the original alive
more clearly shows the difference.

True, but what I was thinking of was the "identity of indiscernibles"
as rehearsed, for example, at
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-indiscernible/
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.






User: "Gregory L. Hansen"

Title: Re: Teleportation 11 Feb 2004 11:06:12 AM
In article <4029ca66$1_1@127.0.0.1>,
Whitestar <starfighterleague@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote:

In my view, when your body is destroy, you die. End of story. What
comes out of the teleporter is an exact copy, with all your memories
etc, and no knowledge that it isn't you, but it isn't. No one would
ever notice the problem, so it only affects you when it happens.
Unless, if you believe in souls, there are "conservation of souls"
problems to deal with - does the same sould follow the body around?

While in an energy state, there is no consciousness, no heart to beat.
Hence, once matter has converted into energy, the person who first
underwent the procedure has cease to exist and once the energy is
reconverted back into matter, that individual will be replaced by a
replica who will literally be born into existence.

What does everybody else thinks?

There's already been stories to that effect. I can't think of titles
off-hand, but in one story two guys were teleported to the Moon. They did
what it was that had to be done out there, but they were copies with the
originals still living back on Earth. Going back to Earth would have
meant two of each of them trying to live the same lives. So when their
job was done, they just took a walk away from the moon base until they
ran out of air and died.
--
"Things should be made as simple as possible -- but no simpler."
-- Albert Einstein
.

User: "John Bailey"

Title: Re: Teleportation 11 Feb 2004 07:36:32 AM
On 11 Feb 2004 00:23:34 -0600,
starfighterleague@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (Whitestar) wrote:

Hi everybody.


I have always been intrigued by the concept of teleportation and with
the recent advances in quantum teleportation at the University of
Innsbruck, the results are encouraging.

(snip)

The thing that concerns me about this concept has some philosophical
issues to address. For instance, if the mass of a person is converted
into energy in an uncontrolled way (eg, collision with a very large
amount of antimatter, destroying every proton, neutron and electron
in your body) then the information that is encoded on the gamma rays
(usually) released will be lost.


Quantum Teleportation somewhat misappropriates the term as used in
science fiction. The following is from a thread five years ago:
----------------------------------------------------------
From: "John Bailey" <jmb184@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Downloading hardware from the Internet
Date: 1999/05/21
Message-ID: <7i3iah$57a$1@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net>#1/1
Einstein wrote in message
<01bea256$d9625560$24921e18@obi-wan-kanobe>...

I have a theory: one day we will be able to download hardware from the
Internet.

What an imaginative idea!
Along the way, (steps toward the ultimate)
Today, downloading journal articles as Postscript, the reconstructing
them
with "copy article.ps lpt1"
Today, with CAD/CAM, downloading NC files which drive 3D shape
"printers"
Later, downloading DNA sequences, building the DNA string and
generating
cellular substances
Combinations of the last two, speed up the cycle, and reach the
ultimate!
The key words are STEREO LITHOGRAPHY
One page with a quick introduction to the subject is at:
http://www.arch.columbia.edu/DDL/research/SLA/SLA.DEF.html
John
John Bailey
http://home.rochester.rr.com/jbxroads/mailto.html
.
User: "Doug Smith"

Title: Re: Teleportation 11 Feb 2004 12:18:19 PM
"John Bailey" <john_bailey@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:402a2b72.65498105@news-server.rochester.rr.com...
<snip>

From: "John Bailey" <jmb184@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Downloading hardware from the Internet
Date: 1999/05/21
Message-ID: <7i3iah$57a$1@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net>#1/1

Einstein wrote in message
<01bea256$d9625560$24921e18@obi-wan-kanobe>...

I have a theory: one day we will be able to download hardware from the
Internet.

I can see it now: Thousands of cheapskate computer users downloading optical
drives, video cards, and maybe even whole computers from KaZaA. Lawsuits
aplenty.
- Doug -
.


User: "John Sefton"

Title: Re: Teleportation 11 Feb 2004 01:42:23 AM
Whitestar wrote:

Hi everybody.


I have always been intrigued by the concept of teleportation and with
the recent advances in quantum teleportation at the University of
Innsbruck, the results are encouraging. However, it should be noted
that this form of teleportation doesn't allow physicists to teleport
the photon itself--only its properties to another, remote photon.
Here is the site:

http://www.aip.org/physnews/graphics/html/teleport.htm

I'm an aspiring science fiction writer and what I want to do in my
story is achieve teleportation by actually teleporting the people
themselves, not their properties. So, I began thinking about how I
was going to do that. I thought about creating a teleporter that
works by converting matter into energy and reconverting the energy
back into matter and being able to pass through walls and ceilings,
sort of like radio signals.


Speaking of matter and energy, in 1998 researchers at Stanford
University's Linear Accelerator Center successfully converted energy
into matter. This feat was accomplished by using lasers and
incredibly strong electromagnetic fields to change ordinary light
into matter. The results of this experiment may allow for the
development of variety of technological gadgets. One such development
could be matter/energy transporters or food replicators that are
commonly seen in some of our favorite science fiction programs.

For more information, check out the following site:

http://www.geog.ouc.bc.ca/conted/on...10/210_2_2.html


The thing that concerns me about this concept has some philosophical
issues to address. For instance, if the mass of a person is converted
into energy in an uncontrolled way (eg, collision with a very large
amount of antimatter, destroying every proton, neutron and electron
in your body) then the information that is encoded on the gamma rays
(usually) released will be lost.


In a controlled conversion, you could in principle convert the entire
body to energy one particle at a time, and then read off the whole
state and transmit it. But there are two problems with this:


1) A tremendous amount of data needs to be sent. In the book entitled,
"The Physics of Star Trek" author Lawerence Krauss calculates the
approximate amount, about 10,000 light-years to the center of the
galaxy!

2) The amount of time this takes.


However, current thought in neuroscience is that the
"personailty/consciousness" is not at all QM, and thus there is no
need to break someone down to a subatomic level and read their
Quantum State. Instead, it is simply enough to know there chemical
structure - and copy it at that resolution. This means there are no
"no cloning" problems, much less data to handle, and no need to
destroy the original (given sufficient technology to do the
scanning). This would allow you to create "clones" - you could send
copies of yourself "over the radio", while you stay safe at home.
(Greg Egan's Diaspora talks about this at an AI level - the AI
programs clone themselves and send themselves all over the place)


Now if you turn each person into energy, you get a cloud of gamma rays
expanding outwards. There is nothing that would make them
spontaneously reform the person - even if you reflected them
backwards, they would not neccessarily create the original particles.
It is much more likely that teleportation would involve sending the
information that can be gleaned from the gamma rays, and then having
the information used by a base station to construct the person, more
mechanically.


In my view, when your body is destroy, you die. End of story. What
comes out of the teleporter is an exact copy, with all your memories
etc, and no knowledge that it isn't you, but it isn't. No one would
ever notice the problem, so it only affects you when it happens.
Unless, if you believe in souls, there are "conservation of souls"
problems to deal with - does the same sould follow the body around?

While in an energy state, there is no consciousness, no heart to beat.
Hence, once matter has converted into energy, the person who first
underwent the procedure has cease to exist and once the energy is
reconverted back into matter, that individual will be replaced by a
replica who will literally be born into existence.

What does everybody else thinks?

Whitestar



----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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An atom is equally in complexity
to a galaxy. Detail is infinite at whatever level
you are at just as it is the same distance
to infinity no matter what number you
start with.
In order to do what you say, you'ld
have to be God.
Otherwise you don't have a snowball's
chance in Hell no matter how
much technology you throw at it.
John
.
User: "nightbat"

Title: Re: Teleportation 12 Feb 2004 01:10:27 AM
nightbat wrote
John Sefton wrote:


Whitestar wrote:

Hi everybody.


I have always been intrigued by the concept of teleportation and with
the recent advances in quantum teleportation at the University of
Innsbruck, the results are encouraging. However, it should be noted
that this form of teleportation doesn't allow physicists to teleport
the photon itself--only its properties to another, remote photon.
Here is the site:

http://www.aip.org/physnews/graphics/html/teleport.htm
Whitestar


An atom is equally in complexity
to a galaxy. Detail is infinite at whatever level
you are at just as it is the same distance
to infinity no matter what number you
start with.
In order to do what you say, you'ld
have to be God.
Otherwise you don't have a snowball's
chance in Hell no matter how
much technology you throw at it.
John

nightbat
According to rumor Intel is working on this very problem. Once
the code is ascertained, digitized laser info encoded human cell copies
may not be long behind. The strange aspect will be the realization that
we may be ourselves in fact already carbon copies of a master somewhere
out in another galaxy just having fun with image biself duplication
autobats. Trying to figure if you're real or Memorex will then be the
hard part, not teleportation. And if you forget and fail to pay your
electric bill and you get shut off while being transported, where does
your atom cell signature go, Smart's parallel universe until the juice
is restored? How do we know Whitestar isn't a master teleport cloner and
just giving us a hint of what's in store? Is that the reason for rumored
bureaucratic future human body marking by the Government, to know the
real folks from the copies? The wireless radio finger rings that
activate the copy teleport machine could be activated in the moment of
imminent danger and you could email yourself to another safer timeline.
No wait, I'm having trouble with the thought of more then one Mr.
Hammond, running around multiply posting, won't some higher authority
listen and believe me no one is smarter or more qualified better then me
to know, the proof of God equals lack of brain cells on the net ad
nauseum.
the nightbat
.
User: "BenignVanilla"

Title: Re: Teleportation 12 Feb 2004 07:30:59 AM
"nightbat" <nightbat@home.ffni.com> wrote in message
news:402B26E3.7B437DF2@home.ffni.com...
<snip>

The wireless radio finger rings that
activate the copy teleport machine could be activated in the moment of
imminent danger and you could email yourself to another safer timeline.

<snip>
I can't wait to see the SPAM filters we'll need for this.
BV.
www.iheartmypond.com
.



User: "Uncle Al"

Title: Re: Teleportation 11 Feb 2004 10:59:45 AM
Whitestar wrote:
[snip]

I'm an aspiring science fiction writer and what I want to do in my
story is achieve teleportation by actually teleporting the people
themselves, not their properties. So, I began thinking about how I
was going to do that. I thought about creating a teleporter that
works by converting matter into energy and reconverting the energy
back into matter and being able to pass through walls and ceilings,
sort of like radio signals.

70 kg human = 1500 megatonnes nuclear equivalent. Boom. Even your
Second Law losses will be intolerably messy.

Speaking of matter and energy, in 1998 researchers at Stanford
University's Linear Accelerator Center successfully converted energy
into matter.

Pair formation. No biggie.

This feat was accomplished by using lasers and
incredibly strong electromagnetic fields to change ordinary light
into matter.

Photon of energy exceeding twice 511 keV grazes an atomic nucleus
resulting in pair formation. No biggie.

The results of this experiment may allow for the
development of variety of technological gadgets.

*****.
1) Given: NASA can launch the Space Scuttle, mostly.
2) Therefore: Man in Space!
3) Bottom Line: *****.

One such development
could be matter/energy transporters or food replicators that are
commonly seen in some of our favorite science fiction programs.

*****. 1500 megatonnes = 6.3x10^18 joules. Convert that to kwH
and buy Canadian Hydro at $(US)0.03/kwH. How much will it cost to
teleport your Aunt Hortense from Pacoima, CA to Hell's Kitchen, NY?
[snip piddle]

Now if you turn each person into energy, you get a cloud of gamma rays
expanding outwards.

Kinda hard to see any alternative, composition or trajectory. How do
you compensate for gravitational red- and blue-shifts?
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/relativ/gratim.html#c2
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/nuclear/mossfe.html
Bottom line: Light travels a foot/nanosecond. You are already fucked
at the first moment.
[snip]

What does everybody else thinks?

Forget science fiction. Go into politics, social advocacy law, or tax
accountancy.

--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!
.


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