| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"MobyDikc" |
| Date: |
07 Mar 2006 01:40:34 PM |
| Object: |
The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
Assumptions:
a working model of particle physics
a thorough understanding of the brain
Experiment:
make a working model of the human brain using atoms and molecules made
of elementary particles and forces; give the brain instruments, such as
eyes, that allow it to observe and make measurements
Question:
how will the measurements made by the modeled brain compare to the
magnitudes in the model itself?
Ideas?
My conjecture:
the measurements of the modeled brain and the values of the model
itself will not be equal; instead variations will exist and the
variations will demonstrate length contraction, time dilation, and the
uncertainty principle
For more information:
http://www.cosmik-debris.net/science/time.htm
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
07 Mar 2006 02:35:54 PM |
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"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1141760434.682315.131280@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Assumptions:
a working model of particle physics
a thorough understanding of the brain]
That's a dead on arrival - to start with, so to speak.
Experiment:
make a working model of the human brain using atoms and molecules made
of elementary particles and forces; give the brain instruments, such as
eyes, that allow it to observe and make measurements
Your parents made such a model. It is supposed to be
sitting in your skull. But I could be mistaken.
Question:
how will the measurements made by the modeled brain compare to the
magnitudes in the model itself?
How do the measurements made by your brain compare
to the magnitudes in your brain itself?
Ideas?
My conjecture:
the measurements of the modeled brain and the values of the model
itself will not be equal; instead variations will exist and the
variations will demonstrate length contraction, time dilation, and the
uncertainty principle
Your conjecture:
the measurements of your brain and the values of your brain
itself will not be equal; instead variations will exist and the
variations will demonstrate length contraction, time dilation,
and the uncertainty principle
Sounds like crap.
For more information:
http://www.cosmik-debris.net/science/time.htm
Yes, liquid crap. Even Peter Lynds would choke on it.
Dirk Vdm
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| User: "MobyDikc" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
07 Mar 2006 02:50:39 PM |
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Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1141760434.682315.131280@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Assumptions:
a working model of particle physics
a thorough understanding of the brain]
That's a dead on arrival - to start with, so to speak.
You mean we don't have the capicity to attempt it?
Yes.
Are you saying it is worth thinking about until we do have the capicity
to attempt it?
Question:
how will the measurements made by the modeled brain compare to the
magnitudes in the model itself?
How do the measurements made by your brain compare
to the magnitudes in your brain itself?
Ideas?
My conjecture:
the measurements of the modeled brain and the values of the model
itself will not be equal; instead variations will exist and the
variations will demonstrate length contraction, time dilation, and the
uncertainty principle
Your conjecture:
the measurements of your brain and the values of your brain
itself will not be equal; instead variations will exist and the
variations will demonstrate length contraction, time dilation,
and the uncertainty principle
Sounds like crap.
So what do you think will happen?
An automated newgroup bot could have written your post. All you did is
dismiss my idea.
But you didn't offer a prediction of your own.
What do you think will happen?
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
07 Mar 2006 03:47:47 PM |
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"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1141764639.296076.29770@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1141760434.682315.131280@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Assumptions:
a working model of particle physics
a thorough understanding of the brain]
That's a dead on arrival - to start with, so to speak.
You mean we don't have the capicity to attempt it?
Your parents had the capacity, but it seems they failed.
Dirk Vdm
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| User: "MobyDikc" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
07 Mar 2006 04:11:27 PM |
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Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1141764639.296076.29770@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1141760434.682315.131280@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Assumptions:
a working model of particle physics
a thorough understanding of the brain]
That's a dead on arrival - to start with, so to speak.
You mean we don't have the capicity to attempt it?
Your parents had the capacity, but it seems they failed.
I proposed an experiment which isn't possible yet, but might be in the
near future.
I asked for opinions on what will happen in this experiment.
Not satisfied with insulting me, you've insulted my parents.
You are a lousy piece of ***** and an even worse human being.
***** you, Dirk.
*plonk*
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
07 Mar 2006 04:57:27 PM |
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"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141769487.850821.260130@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141764639.296076.29770@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141760434.682315.131280@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Assumptions:
a working model of particle physics
a thorough understanding of the brain]
That's a dead on arrival - to start with, so to speak.
You mean we don't have the capicity to attempt it?
Your parents had the capacity, but it seems they failed.
I proposed an experiment which isn't possible yet, but might be in the
near future.
I asked for opinions on what will happen in this experiment.
Not satisfied with insulting me, you've insulted my parents.
You are a lousy piece of ***** and an even worse human being.
***** you, Dirk.
*plonk*
Your original post was nonsense, Moby.
--
rb
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| User: "MobyDikc" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
07 Mar 2006 05:04:35 PM |
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Ron Baker, Pluralitas! wrote:
"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141769487.850821.260130@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141764639.296076.29770@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141760434.682315.131280@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Assumptions:
a working model of particle physics
a thorough understanding of the brain]
That's a dead on arrival - to start with, so to speak.
You mean we don't have the capicity to attempt it?
Your parents had the capacity, but it seems they failed.
I proposed an experiment which isn't possible yet, but might be in the
near future.
I asked for opinions on what will happen in this experiment.
Not satisfied with insulting me, you've insulted my parents.
You are a lousy piece of ***** and an even worse human being.
***** you, Dirk.
*plonk*
Your original post was nonsense, Moby.
I beg to differ.
Let's say you build a mathematical model of particles
The mathematical model is full of values and magnitudes.
Some day it will be possible to use that mathematical model of
particles to build a brain with measurement instruments.
My original post merely asked the simple question:
When the modeled brain makes measurements, will the measurements made
by the brain be equal (given a direct translation) to the magnitudes in
the model?
Will they vary? If so, how?
Of course, this type of experimental is not possible today, our lack of
knowing how to recreate a complete human brain using elementary
particles and forces being the primary reason why.
But just because such an experiment is years away from attempting, that
does not make pondernig its outcome nonsense.
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
07 Mar 2006 05:12:49 PM |
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"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1141772675.419703.287970@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ron Baker, Pluralitas! wrote:
"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141769487.850821.260130@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141764639.296076.29770@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141760434.682315.131280@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Assumptions:
a working model of particle physics
a thorough understanding of the brain]
That's a dead on arrival - to start with, so to speak.
You mean we don't have the capicity to attempt it?
Your parents had the capacity, but it seems they failed.
I proposed an experiment which isn't possible yet, but might be in the
near future.
I asked for opinions on what will happen in this experiment.
Not satisfied with insulting me, you've insulted my parents.
You are a lousy piece of ***** and an even worse human being.
***** you, Dirk.
*plonk*
Your original post was nonsense, Moby.
I beg to differ.
Let's say you build a mathematical model of particles
The mathematical model is full of values and magnitudes.
Some day it will be possible to use that mathematical model of
particles to build a brain with measurement instruments.
My original post merely asked the simple question:
When the modeled brain makes measurements, will the measurements made
by the brain be equal (given a direct translation) to the magnitudes in
the model?
Will they vary? If so, how?
Of course, this type of experimental is not possible today, our lack of
knowing how to recreate a complete human brain using elementary
particles and forces being the primary reason why.
But just because such an experiment is years away from attempting, that
does not make pondernig its outcome nonsense.
You are such an experiment. Use it :-)
Dirk Vdm
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| User: "MobyDikc" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
08 Mar 2006 10:51:34 AM |
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Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
<snip>
You are such an experiment. Use it :-)
The experiment is to compare the values of the actual universe with our
measurements of it.
Since we don't know the values of the actual universe, just our
measurements, no comparison is possible.
It is possible to compare my measurements with your measurements, or
those of experimental physicists, but that is not the experiment I've
proposed.
On the other hand, If we model the universe, and inside of it is a
brain that can be used to determine the relative measurements from the
perspective of an observer that exists inside the model, the comparison
that I've proposed is possible.
Your responses indicate that you don't understand the basic idea of the
experiment.
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
08 Mar 2006 11:48:53 AM |
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"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1141836694.754702.226000@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
<snip>
<significant unsnip>
But just because such an experiment is years away from attempting, that
does not make pondernig its outcome nonsense.
</significant unsnip>
You are such an experiment. Use it :-)
The experiment is to compare the values of the actual universe with our
measurements of it.
The experiment is not years away from attempting.
But who cares, you *plonked* me again yesterday:
| "You are a lousy piece of ***** and an even worse human being.
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| ***** you, Dirk.
|
| *plonk*"
That means that you can't read my messages.
It also indicates that you suffer from severe brain malfunction
and/or that you are hopelessly emotionally immature.
Unless you want to continue making a fool of yourself, you
might consider seeing a doctor about that.
Take care now :-)
Dirk Vdm
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| User: "MobyDikc" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
08 Mar 2006 11:58:16 AM |
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Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1141836694.754702.226000@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
<snip>
<significant unsnip>
But just because such an experiment is years away from attempting, that
does not make pondernig its outcome nonsense.
</significant unsnip>
You are such an experiment. Use it :-)
The experiment is to compare the values of the actual universe with our
measurements of it.
The experiment is not years away from attempting.
But who cares, you *plonked* me again yesterday:
| "You are a lousy piece of ***** and an even worse human being.
|
| ***** you, Dirk.
|
| *plonk*"
That means that you can't read my messages.
It also indicates that you suffer from severe brain malfunction
and/or that you are hopelessly emotionally immature.
Unless you want to continue making a fool of yourself, you
might consider seeing a doctor about that.
I forgot that Google Groups (which is how I read usenet) doesn't have
twit filtering. Your abuse is visible along with everyone elses.
Do you have something to say about the experiment, or are you limiting
your input to personal insults?
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
08 Mar 2006 12:32:57 PM |
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"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1141840696.551499.181800@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1141836694.754702.226000@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
<snip>
<significant unsnip>
But just because such an experiment is years away from attempting, that
does not make pondernig its outcome nonsense.
</significant unsnip>
You are such an experiment. Use it :-)
The experiment is to compare the values of the actual universe with our
measurements of it.
The experiment is not years away from attempting.
But who cares, you *plonked* me again yesterday:
| "You are a lousy piece of ***** and an even worse human being.
|
| ***** you, Dirk.
|
| *plonk*"
That means that you can't read my messages.
It also indicates that you suffer from severe brain malfunction
and/or that you are hopelessly emotionally immature.
Unless you want to continue making a fool of yourself, you
might consider seeing a doctor about that.
I forgot that Google Groups (which is how I read usenet) doesn't have
twit filtering. Your abuse is visible along with everyone elses.
Ha, you forgot. So it is a combination of the two conditions.
In any case, when you happen to see a message from someone
you allegedly killfiled, you are supposed to quickly close your
eyes or look the other way. It must work. Try it.
Dirk Vdm
Do you have something to say about the experiment, or are you limiting
your input to personal insults?
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| User: "BD" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
07 Mar 2006 05:30:57 PM |
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I beg to differ.
I think the reason your idea is so easily dismissed is that it is so
far ahead of real-world application that no one would have the first
idea how to start. Might as well start trying to design a transporter a
la Star Trek, for all the luck you'll have.
Do you have any real understanding of the relationship between neurons
and memory? Or decision-making processes? No offense, but I'm guessing
not. Neither do I.
So your idea is SOOO far into the theoretical that it is more in the
realm of science fiction than science. I'm not trying to be insulting,
but I can see why posters in the group are not taking it seriously. You
may as well start trying to hypothesize on constructing a tricorder or
a transporter. Until you can accomplish what you are suggesting, or
really conceptualize how it could be accomplished, then you'll get
little positive feedback.
might be in the near future.
No, it won't be near-future. creating a functioning brain
'artificially' (ie not using a naturally developed brain) is so
absurdly far away from what we can do now it sounds silly just to
consider it.
BD.
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| User: "MobyDikc" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
08 Mar 2006 10:44:24 AM |
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BD wrote:
I beg to differ.
I think the reason your idea is so easily dismissed is that it is so
far ahead of real-world application that no one would have the first
idea how to start. Might as well start trying to design a transporter a
la Star Trek, for all the luck you'll have.
Do you have any real understanding of the relationship between neurons
and memory? Or decision-making processes? No offense, but I'm guessing
not. Neither do I.
So your idea is SOOO far into the theoretical that it is more in the
realm of science fiction than science. I'm not trying to be insulting,
but I can see why posters in the group are not taking it seriously. You
may as well start trying to hypothesize on constructing a tricorder or
a transporter. Until you can accomplish what you are suggesting, or
really conceptualize how it could be accomplished, then you'll get
little positive feedback.
might be in the near future.
No, it won't be near-future. creating a functioning brain
'artificially' (ie not using a naturally developed brain) is so
absurdly far away from what we can do now it sounds silly just to
consider it.
So, let's get this straight.
My experiment is not gibberish, but we do lack the knowledge to attempt
in the near future.
Something I've admitted as true, while suggesting a breakthrough in
neuroscience could make this experiment attemptable within 25 or 50
years.
But let me understand.
Are you actually trying to justify hostility and verbal abuse to the
presenter of a valid thought experiment because a real attempt at the
experiment is for the foreseeable future unattemptable?
Or are you trying to be helpful by explaining Dirk's hostility? If so,
thanks, I appreciate that, but I fully understand. Human beings (and
more specifically usenet posters) don't come in a wide variety of
profiles.
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| User: "BD" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
08 Mar 2006 11:31:15 AM |
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Something I've admitted as true,
It is as true as Transporters and Tricorders and Lightsabers. The
technology is conceptually feasible at the highest level - ie there is
nothing logically inconsistent about it - but that's about it.
Breakthroughs can happen at any time, that is true - but until the
breakthroughs occur, these things are more akin to science fiction than
science. As well, breakthroughs don't just _happen_ - they are achieved
at the cost of thousands of hours of painstaking work.
hostility and verbal abuse
I do not justify hostility. In fact, I HATE unnecessary rudeness in
online forums; it's a cheap cop-out, and helps no one.
But really - this newsgroup isn't about metaphysics, or theoretical
physics - it's about physics. X causes Y. The people in this group tend
to be researchers or educators, who are working in the field of
real-world physics. It's tantamount to approaching a group of race car
drivers, with an idea for an engine design based on a controlled fusion
reaction - when the closest thing you've seen to a fusion reactor is
documentaries and articles found on the web (or so it seems, given how
you posed your idea). The first thing they'll tell you is - "Great.
Nice idea. Come back when you can make it work." Then they'll turn
around and go back to working out the best way to use drafting to get
around Turn 3 without smashing into the wall. May seem rude, but
they've been trying to get a good run at Turn 3 for weeks now, and
nuclear-powered engined aren't going to help them do it. Not today,
anyway.
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| User: "MobyDikc" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
08 Mar 2006 11:55:27 AM |
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BD wrote:
<snip>
Something I've admitted as true,
It is as true as Transporters and Tricorders and Lightsabers.
Except that brain's already exist in nature.
We can cut them up an reverse engineer them.
We have their blueprints in DNA.
By the way, the fact that we've gone from learning what DNA is to
decoding it in about a century says to me that unlocking how memes work
in the brain is not far away.
In any case, I understand your concerns about the feasibility of the
experiment in the near term.
But do you have a thought on the experiment?
That's all I want to know. Have you put some thought into this
question:
Do you think that the measurements of a modeled universe by a modeled
brain are going to equal (algebraic translation) the magnitudes of the
model universe itself?
Or there will be variations between the model and the measurements of
the model, what can we hypothesize about the variations?
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| User: "BD" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
08 Mar 2006 12:10:42 PM |
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We can cut them up an reverse engineer them.
There's your problem right there. We can't. Not saying we never will be
able to, but for now, the process for doing so hasn't even been
imagined - outside science fiction.
WE
CAN'T.
If I'm wrong, prove me wrong. Explain how it would be done. Include
such detail as predicting / controlling the voltage across the neurons,
and how the myelin sheaths will be synthesized.
But do you have a thought on the experiment?
Not really. If a system reflects accurately enough what it's modeling,
then its responses would be comparable. That sounds reasonable. But
you're talking about 3% science and 97% conjecture and assumption. And
that level of conjecture and assumption... won't interest me unless I
have some kind of prior attachment to the topic - which I don't.
equal (algebraic translation)
Again - you're looking at replicating a system that has not been
quantified past the GROSSEST levels. Tell me - do you know what
combinations of neurotransmitters in the brain are required for a
person to feel... regret? Humor? Surprise?
People are working all the time to model the human brain. There is SO
MUCH to accomplish before questions you ask will be really addressed
that you're probably going to get a more positive response in a sci-fi
forum, where use of the imagination is an end in itself.
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| User: "MobyDikc" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
08 Mar 2006 12:15:52 PM |
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BD wrote:
<snip>
People are working all the time to model the human brain. There is SO
MUCH to accomplish before questions you ask will be really addressed
that you're probably going to get a more positive response in a sci-fi
forum, where use of the imagination is an end in itself.
Thanks.
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| User: "platopes" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
08 Mar 2006 11:40:37 AM |
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BD wrote:
It's tantamount to approaching a group of race car
drivers, with an idea for an engine design based on a controlled fusion
reaction - when the closest thing you've seen to a fusion reactor is
documentaries and articles found on the web (or so it seems, given how
you posed your idea). The first thing they'll tell you is - "Great.
Nice idea. Come back when you can make it work."
NASCAR uses carbeurators, and rear-wheel drive. Yeehaw!
p
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| User: "BD" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
08 Mar 2006 11:44:10 AM |
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NASCAR uses carbeurators, and rear-wheel drive. Yeehaw!
I'm a rally guy, myself - it's gonna suck if FIA outlaws turbos so more
manufacturers can afford to compete. ;-(
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
07 Mar 2006 04:34:17 PM |
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"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1141769487.850821.260130@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1141764639.296076.29770@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"MobyDikc" <mobydikc@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1141760434.682315.131280@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Assumptions:
a working model of particle physics
a thorough understanding of the brain]
That's a dead on arrival - to start with, so to speak.
You mean we don't have the capicity to attempt it?
Your parents had the capacity, but it seems they failed.
I proposed an experiment which isn't possible yet, but might be in the
near future.
It has always been possible.
We have 6.6 billion instances of it walking around on this planet.
I asked for opinions on what will happen in this experiment.
You got an opinion, and as always you refuse to get the point.
Not satisfied with insulting me, you've insulted my parents.
I'm sure you agree with me that you are responsible for your
own self-inflicted ignorance. Your parents can't help that :-)
I was insulting you. Even *that* you fail to understand.
You are a lousy piece of ***** and an even worse human being.
***** you, Dirk.
*plonk*
Again?
Dirk Vdm
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
08 Mar 2006 12:36:55 PM |
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MobyDikc wrote:
Assumptions:
a working model of particle physics
a thorough understanding of the brain
Experiment:
make a working model of the human brain using atoms and molecules made
of elementary particles and forces; give the brain instruments, such as
eyes, that allow it to observe and make measurements
Question:
how will the measurements made by the modeled brain compare to the
magnitudes in the model itself?
Ideas?
My conjecture:
the measurements of the modeled brain and the values of the model
itself will not be equal; instead variations will exist and the
variations will demonstrate length contraction, time dilation, and the
uncertainty principle
For more information:
http://www.cosmik-debris.net/science/time.htm
A model is useless if you can't do anything with it to predict what
you'll see in reality.
An experiment is useless if it doesn't distinguish between two
competing models.
At the moment your proposal has no more value than the following:
1. Suppose we pack as many angels as we can on the head of a pin.
2. If one angel pushes another, will an angel fall off?
PD
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| User: "Eric Gisse" |
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| Title: Re: The Greatest Unattempted Experiment |
08 Mar 2006 01:51:12 PM |
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MobyDikc wrote:
Assumptions:
a working model of particle physics
a thorough understanding of the brain
You have neither.
[snip]
Stop posting your metaphysical ***** to sci.physics. It is as if
everything you say is carefully constructed to be impossible to test.
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