| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Mike Helland" |
| Date: |
18 Aug 2004 01:03:56 PM |
| Object: |
The mathematics of the equivalence principle |
Hey,
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/EquivalencePrincipleofGravitation.html
<q>
The gravitational force caused by an external object is the same for
all objects of the same mass, regardless of their compositions.
</q>
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/equivalence_principle.html
<q>
In the Newtonian form it asserts, in effect, that, within a windowless
laboratory freely falling in a uniform gravitational field,
experimenters would be unaware that the laboratory is in a state of
nonuniform motion
</q>
Is this the equivalence principle? This is how I undestood it, but I
figured that there would actually be equations for it, science math is
the language of physics and all. What is the equation (or equations)
for the EP?
.
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| User: "Ken S. Tucker" |
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| Title: Re: The mathematics of the equivalence principle |
18 Aug 2004 05:17:50 PM |
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(Mike Helland) wrote in message news:<ad157aec.0408181003.584e4112@posting.google.com>...
Hey,
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/EquivalencePrincipleofGravitation.html
<q>
The gravitational force caused by an external object is the same for
all objects of the same mass, regardless of their compositions.
</q>
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/equivalence_principle.html
<q>
In the Newtonian form it asserts, in effect, that, within a windowless
laboratory freely falling in a uniform gravitational field,
experimenters would be unaware that the laboratory is in a state of
nonuniform motion
</q>
Is this the equivalence principle? This is how I undestood it, but I
figured that there would actually be equations for it, science math is
the language of physics and all. What is the equation (or equations)
for the EP?
IMHO Use "&" for partial derivative, then
2* &g_00/&x^i = &g_0i/&x^0 where g_0i = -dx^i/dx^0 = -v/c
you can sub these into the geodesic equation and
enjoy the results. Inertia is expressed by the metric
g_0i, corresponding physically to aberration, and changes
to aberration given by &g_i0/&x^0 = &v/&t = inertial effects.
The only source of "inertial effects" originate from
ElectroMagnetism, which can be found in the asymmetrical
part of the metric g_i0 == q*F_i0 ie. the electric field.
The q*F_i0 bridges inertial effects, EM, and then
Quantum Theory by &F_i0/&x^0 to give rise to EM-radiation,
which is the physical source of inertia, ie. any inertial
effect requires a photon exchange.
Regards
Ken S. Tucker
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The mathematics of the equivalence principle |
18 Aug 2004 06:28:07 PM |
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(Mike Helland) wrote in message news:<ad157aec.0408181003.584e4112@posting.google.com>...
Hey,
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/EquivalencePrincipleofGravitation.html
<q>
The gravitational force caused by an external object is the same for
all objects of the same mass, regardless of their compositions.
</q>
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/equivalence_principle.html
<q>
In the Newtonian form it asserts, in effect, that, within a windowless
laboratory freely falling in a uniform gravitational field,
experimenters would be unaware that the laboratory is in a state of
nonuniform motion
</q>
Is this the equivalence principle? This is how I undestood it, but I
figured that there would actually be equations for it, science math is
the language of physics and all. What is the equation (or equations)
for the EP?
The wolfram site claims to be equivalence of the thing to which force
applies, ie. the mass.
And the other is the normal representation.
The abnormal representation implies the equivalence of all things,
force or
matter.
Making it the compact wording of the principle.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The mathematics of the equivalence principle |
18 Aug 2004 06:29:15 PM |
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(Mike Helland) wrote in message news:<ad157aec.0408181003.584e4112@posting.google.com>...
Hey,
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/EquivalencePrincipleofGravitation.html
<q>
The gravitational force caused by an external object is the same for
all objects of the same mass, regardless of their compositions.
</q>
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/equivalence_principle.html
<q>
In the Newtonian form it asserts, in effect, that, within a windowless
laboratory freely falling in a uniform gravitational field,
experimenters would be unaware that the laboratory is in a state of
nonuniform motion
</q>
Is this the equivalence principle? This is how I undestood it, but I
figured that there would actually be equations for it, science math is
the language of physics and all. What is the equation (or equations)
for the EP?
The wolfram site claims to be equivalence of the thing to which force
applies, ie. the mass.
And the other is the normal representation.
The abnormal representation implies the equivalence of all things,
force or
matter.
Making it the compact wording of the principle.
.
|
|
|
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: The mathematics of the equivalence principle |
18 Aug 2004 08:01:30 PM |
|
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(Mike Helland) wrote in message news:<ad157aec.0408181003.584e4112@posting.google.com>...
Hey,
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/EquivalencePrincipleofGravitation.html
<q>
The gravitational force caused by an external object is the same for
all objects of the same mass, regardless of their compositions.
</q>
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/equivalence_principle.html
<q>
In the Newtonian form it asserts, in effect, that, within a windowless
laboratory freely falling in a uniform gravitational field,
experimenters would be unaware that the laboratory is in a state of
nonuniform motion
</q>
Is this the equivalence principle? This is how I undestood it, but I
figured that there would actually be equations for it, science math is
the language of physics and all. What is the equation (or equations)
for the EP?
The wolfram site claims to be equivalence of the thing to which force
applies, ie. the mass.
And the other is the normal representation.
The abnormal representation implies the equivalence of all things,
force or
matter.
Making it the compact wording of the principle.
(Mike Helland) wrote in message news:<ad157aec.0408181003.584e4112@posting.google.com>...
Hey,
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/EquivalencePrincipleofGravitation.html
<q>
The gravitational force caused by an external object is the same for
all objects of the same mass, regardless of their compositions.
</q>
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/equivalence_principle.html
<q>
In the Newtonian form it asserts, in effect, that, within a windowless
laboratory freely falling in a uniform gravitational field,
experimenters would be unaware that the laboratory is in a state of
nonuniform motion
</q>
Is this the equivalence principle? This is how I undestood it, but I
figured that there would actually be equations for it, science math is
the language of physics and all. What is the equation (or equations)
for the EP?
.
|
|
|
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
|
| Title: Re: The mathematics of the equivalence principle |
18 Aug 2004 04:10:05 PM |
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Mike Helland wrote:
Hey,
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/EquivalencePrincipleofGravitation.html
<q>
The gravitational force caused by an external object is the same for
all objects of the same mass, regardless of their compositions.
</q>
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/equivalence_principle.html
<q>
In the Newtonian form it asserts, in effect, that, within a windowless
laboratory freely falling in a uniform gravitational field,
experimenters would be unaware that the laboratory is in a state of
nonuniform motion
</q>
Is this the equivalence principle? This is how I undestood it, but I
figured that there would actually be equations for it, science math is
the language of physics and all. What is the equation (or equations)
for the EP?
Jahrbuch der Radioaktivität Elect. 4 411 (1907)
Mi/Mg = k The ratio of inertial and gravitational masses for all
bodies is identical.
Experimentation to date says that is true to one part in ten
trillion difference/average. The Equivalence Principle states
that inertial and gravitational mass are fundamentally
indistinguishable, that all *local* masses fall identically in
vacuum regardless of chemical composition or internal structure.
"Local" is important to remove tidal (quadrupole) forces. Only
composition has been tested for want of a quantitative
description of "different" internal structure.
<http://wugrav.wustl.edu/people/CMW/update98.pdf>
<http://www.astro.northwestern.edu/AspenW04/Papers/lorimer1.pdf>
Equivalence Principle testing
<http://www.npl.washington.edu/eotwash/pdf/prl83-3585.pdf>
http://arXiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0301024
Nordtvedt Effect
How does one decide how many kinds of "different" there are? All
properties (less parity - comes along for the ride anyway) are
tied to symmetries through Noether's theorrem. A list of
symmetries is then a list of different properties,
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/eotvos.htm#b21
Internal symmetries do not couple to rotation or translation.
Nobody is about to produce and hold 50 grams of antimatter or a
lump going backwards in time. The interesting list of untried
"different" is then a very short one: parity.
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
Two experiments are queued but not scheduled. We wait.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
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| User: "Mike Helland" |
|
| Title: Re: The mathematics of the equivalence principle |
18 Aug 2004 10:45:48 PM |
|
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Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:<4123C5AD.BBFD9C77@hate.spam.net>...
Is this the equivalence principle? This is how I undestood it, but I
figured that there would actually be equations for it, science math is
the language of physics and all. What is the equation (or equations)
for the EP?
Jahrbuch der Radioaktivität Elect. 4 411 (1907)
Mi/Mg = k The ratio of inertial and gravitational masses for all
bodies is identical.
If they're identical, then Mi/Mg should = 1. The equation is just Mi=Mg then.
Thanks.
.
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: The mathematics of the equivalence principle |
19 Aug 2004 05:05:38 AM |
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"Mike Helland" <mhelland@techmocracy.net> wrote in message news:ad157aec.0408181945.38958f9a@posting.google.com...
Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:<4123C5AD.BBFD9C77@hate.spam.net>...
Is this the equivalence principle? This is how I undestood it, but I
figured that there would actually be equations for it, science math is
the language of physics and all. What is the equation (or equations)
for the EP?
Jahrbuch der Radioaktivität Elect. 4 411 (1907)
Mi/Mg = k The ratio of inertial and gravitational masses for all
bodies is identical.
If they're identical, then Mi/Mg should = 1.
The equation is just Mi=Mg then.
Try again.
Dirk Vdm
.
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| User: "Mike Helland" |
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| Title: Re: The mathematics of the equivalence principle |
19 Aug 2004 09:20:55 AM |
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"Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<41247c42@usenet01.boi.hp.com>...
"Mike Helland" <mhelland@techmocracy.net> wrote in message news:ad157aec.0408181945.38958f9a@posting.google.com...
Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:<4123C5AD.BBFD9C77@hate.spam.net>...
Is this the equivalence principle? This is how I undestood it, but I
figured that there would actually be equations for it, science math is
the language of physics and all. What is the equation (or equations)
for the EP?
Jahrbuch der Radioaktivität Elect. 4 411 (1907)
Mi/Mg = k The ratio of inertial and gravitational masses for all
bodies is identical.
If they're identical, then Mi/Mg should = 1.
The equation is just Mi=Mg then.
Try again.
Ok, I see the problem. But then why does this web page get say its equal to one?
http://www.pa.uky.edu/~cvj/as500_lec6/as500_lec6.html#two
Just a mistake?
.
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: The mathematics of the equivalence principle |
19 Aug 2004 10:17:10 AM |
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"Mike Helland" <mhelland@techmocracy.net> wrote in message news:ad157aec.0408190620.3b28ef68@posting.google.com...
"Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<41247c42@usenet01.boi.hp.com>...
"Mike Helland" <mhelland@techmocracy.net> wrote in message news:ad157aec.0408181945.38958f9a@posting.google.com...
Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:<4123C5AD.BBFD9C77@hate.spam.net>...
Is this the equivalence principle? This is how I undestood it, but I
figured that there would actually be equations for it, science math is
the language of physics and all. What is the equation (or equations)
for the EP?
Jahrbuch der Radioaktivität Elect. 4 411 (1907)
Mi/Mg = k The ratio of inertial and gravitational masses for all
bodies is identical.
If they're identical, then Mi/Mg should = 1.
The equation is just Mi=Mg then.
Try again.
Ok, I see the problem.
Are you sure?
Can you explain what the problem is?
But then why does this web page get say its equal to one?
http://www.pa.uky.edu/~cvj/as500_lec6/as500_lec6.html#two
Just a mistake?
What do you think?
Dirk Vdm
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| User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher" |
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| Title: Re: The mathematics of the equivalence principle |
19 Aug 2004 10:11:58 AM |
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Mike Helland wrote:
"Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<41247c42@usenet01.boi.hp.com>...
"Mike Helland" <mhelland@techmocracy.net> wrote in message news:ad157aec.0408181945.38958f9a@posting.google.com...
Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:<4123C5AD.BBFD9C77@hate.spam.net>...
Is this the equivalence principle? This is how I undestood it, but I
figured that there would actually be equations for it, science math is
the language of physics and all. What is the equation (or equations)
for the EP?
Jahrbuch der Radioaktivität Elect. 4 411 (1907)
Mi/Mg = k The ratio of inertial and gravitational masses for all
bodies is identical.
If they're identical, then Mi/Mg should = 1.
The equation is just Mi=Mg then.
Try again.
Ok, I see the problem. But then why does this web page get say its equal to one?
http://www.pa.uky.edu/~cvj/as500_lec6/as500_lec6.html#two
Just a mistake?
No. The constant k in the equation above is not in any way measurable.
Essentially it depends on the units you use to measure Mi and Mg. One
could also say that it can be "absorbed" by a redefinition of G (the
gravitational constant). So, usually, one simply says that one measures
both in the same units - which implies that k=1.
Bye,
Bjoern
.
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: The mathematics of the equivalence principle |
19 Aug 2004 10:17:49 AM |
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"Bjoern Feuerbacher" <feuerbac@thphys.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote in message news:cg2fvu$8uv$1@news.urz.uni-heidelberg.de...
Mike Helland wrote:
"Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<41247c42@usenet01.boi.hp.com>...
"Mike Helland" <mhelland@techmocracy.net> wrote in message news:ad157aec.0408181945.38958f9a@posting.google.com...
Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:<4123C5AD.BBFD9C77@hate.spam.net>...
Is this the equivalence principle? This is how I undestood it, but I
figured that there would actually be equations for it, science math is
the language of physics and all. What is the equation (or equations)
for the EP?
Jahrbuch der Radioaktivität Elect. 4 411 (1907)
Mi/Mg = k The ratio of inertial and gravitational masses for all
bodies is identical.
If they're identical, then Mi/Mg should = 1.
The equation is just Mi=Mg then.
Try again.
Ok, I see the problem. But then why does this web page get say its equal to one?
http://www.pa.uky.edu/~cvj/as500_lec6/as500_lec6.html#two
Just a mistake?
No. The constant k in the equation above is not in any way measurable.
Essentially it depends on the units you use to measure Mi and Mg. One
could also say that it can be "absorbed" by a redefinition of G (the
gravitational constant). So, usually, one simply says that one measures
both in the same units - which implies that k=1.
Ah.... you spoiled the fun :-(
Dirk Vdm
.
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| User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher" |
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| Title: Re: The mathematics of the equivalence principle |
19 Aug 2004 10:50:21 AM |
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Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"Bjoern Feuerbacher" <feuerbac@thphys.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote in message news:cg2fvu$8uv$1@news.urz.uni-heidelberg.de...
Mike Helland wrote:
"Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<41247c42@usenet01.boi.hp.com>...
"Mike Helland" <mhelland@techmocracy.net> wrote in message news:ad157aec.0408181945.38958f9a@posting.google.com...
Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:<4123C5AD.BBFD9C77@hate.spam.net>...
Is this the equivalence principle? This is how I undestood it, but I
figured that there would actually be equations for it, science math is
the language of physics and all. What is the equation (or equations)
for the EP?
Jahrbuch der Radioaktivität Elect. 4 411 (1907)
Mi/Mg = k The ratio of inertial and gravitational masses for all
bodies is identical.
If they're identical, then Mi/Mg should = 1.
The equation is just Mi=Mg then.
Try again.
Ok, I see the problem. But then why does this web page get say its equal to one?
http://www.pa.uky.edu/~cvj/as500_lec6/as500_lec6.html#two
Just a mistake?
No. The constant k in the equation above is not in any way measurable.
Essentially it depends on the units you use to measure Mi and Mg. One
could also say that it can be "absorbed" by a redefinition of G (the
gravitational constant). So, usually, one simply says that one measures
both in the same units - which implies that k=1.
Ah.... you spoiled the fun :-(
Sorry. ;-)
Bye,
Bjoern
.
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| User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher" |
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| Title: Re: The mathematics of the equivalence principle |
19 Aug 2004 07:06:34 AM |
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Mike Helland wrote:
Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:<4123C5AD.BBFD9C77@hate.spam.net>...
Is this the equivalence principle? This is how I undestood it, but I
figured that there would actually be equations for it, science math is
the language of physics and all. What is the equation (or equations)
for the EP?
Jahrbuch der Radioaktivität Elect. 4 411 (1907)
Mi/Mg = k The ratio of inertial and gravitational masses for all
bodies is identical.
If they're identical, then Mi/Mg should = 1.
Err, read again. He did not said that inertial and gravitational
mass is identical for all bodies. He said that the *ratio* of inertial
and gravitational masses for all bodies is identical (the same).
And that is expressed by Mi/Mg = constant.
[snip]
Bye,
Bjoern
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| User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher" |
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| Title: Re: The mathematics of the equivalence principle |
19 Aug 2004 07:04:29 AM |
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Mike Helland wrote:
Hey,
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/EquivalencePrincipleofGravitation.html
<q>
The gravitational force caused by an external object is the same for
all objects of the same mass, regardless of their compositions.
</q>
This is *not* the equivalence principle. This merely *follows* from it.
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/equivalence_principle.html
<q>
In the Newtonian form it asserts, in effect, that, within a windowless
laboratory freely falling in a uniform gravitational field,
experimenters would be unaware that the laboratory is in a state of
nonuniform motion
</q>
That is more close to it.
For a much better explanation, see here:
<http://www.npl.washington.edu/eotwash/equiv.html>
Is this the equivalence principle?
Close.
This is how I undestood it, but I
figured that there would actually be equations for it, science math is
the language of physics and all.
Math is nothing without explanations in plain words.
What is the equation (or equations)
for the EP?
There is none. Laws are formulated with equations, theories and models
use equations - but principles use only plain language.
Bye,
Bjoern
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