| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Nick" |
| Date: |
11 Apr 2005 12:25:37 AM |
| Object: |
The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
If you take the No Boundary Proposal seriously you would see
that there is a contradiction in the form of Black Holes.
A black hole with an event hrozion is a violation of the No Boundary
Proposal for it is - exactly that - a boundary in space.
Black Hole theory is the very failure of General Relativity.
There is an extreme of gravity but it isn't a singularity
and it doesn't involve an event horizon.
Black holes are open. They have no event horizons.
They are more better described as dim holes due
to a finite Einstein shift to emitted light as matter
approaches a singularity.
It only approaches a singularity. It never reaches.
Therefore time never ends.
Time continues.
Mitch Raemsch
-- Light Falls --
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| User: "Morituri-|-Max" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
11 Apr 2005 01:01:14 AM |
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"Nick" <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113197137.671156.4510@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
nothing of note
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| User: "Paul Cardinale" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
11 Apr 2005 12:42:59 PM |
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Nick wrote:
If you take the No Boundary Proposal seriously you would see
that there is a contradiction in the form of Black Holes.
A black hole with an event hrozion is a violation of the No Boundary
Proposal for it is - exactly that - a boundary in space.
Black Hole theory is the very failure of General Relativity.
There is an extreme of gravity but it isn't a singularity
and it doesn't involve an event horizon.
Black holes are open. They have no event horizons.
They are more better described as dim holes due
^^^^^^^^^^^
Ah, yes. That's it, "more better". Your intellect and knowledge
blinds us.
Paul Cardinale
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| User: "Schoenfeld" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
11 Apr 2005 12:46:34 PM |
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Nick wrote:
If you take the No Boundary Proposal seriously you would see
that there is a contradiction in the form of Black Holes.
A black hole with an event hrozion is a violation of the No Boundary
Proposal for it is - exactly that - a boundary in space.
Black Hole theory is the very failure of General Relativity.
There is an extreme of gravity but it isn't a singularity
and it doesn't involve an event horizon.
Black holes are open. They have no event horizons.
They are more better described as dim holes due
to a finite Einstein shift to emitted light as matter
approaches a singularity.
It only approaches a singularity. It never reaches.
Therefore time never ends.
Time continues.
Mitch Raemsch
-- Light Falls --
I have forwarded your insights to the American Journal of Physics for
critical review.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
11 Apr 2005 02:36:18 PM |
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Nick wrote:
If you take the No Boundary Proposal seriously you would see
that there is a contradiction in the form of Black Holes.
A black hole with an event hrozion is a violation of the No Boundary
Proposal for it is - exactly that - a boundary in space.
Hence, the black hole of classical GR can't exist. A Hawking pointed
out last summer (and as I pointed out numerous times here, in s.p.r.
and elsewhere before him) the real black hole does not have a
well-defined event horizon, nothing falls "in" to anything. It
evaporates away in finite time. There is no trapped region and no
"boundary".
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| User: "Nick" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
11 Apr 2005 05:11:05 PM |
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wrote:
Nick wrote:
If you take the No Boundary Proposal seriously you would see
that there is a contradiction in the form of Black Holes.
A black hole with an event hrozion is a violation of the No
Boundary
Proposal for it is - exactly that - a boundary in space.
Hence, the black hole of classical GR can't exist. A Hawking pointed
out last summer (and as I pointed out numerous times here, in s.p.r.
and elsewhere before him) the real black hole does not have a
well-defined event horizon, nothing falls "in" to anything. It
evaporates away in finite time. There is no trapped region and no
"boundary".
GR needs modification. There are no event horizons not only because
quantum mechanics would blur them but because time can never end!!!
No infinite Einstein shift to light. They should be called Dim holes.
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| User: "Morituri-|-Max" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
15 Apr 2005 12:36:32 PM |
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"Nick" <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113257465.380670.223320@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
GR needs modification. There are no event horizons not only because
quantum mechanics would blur them but because time can never end!!!
No infinite Einstein shift to light. They should be called Dim holes.
Show the math from GR that needs modification and the math that will replace
it.
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| User: "Nick" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
15 Apr 2005 03:38:27 PM |
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I don't have to have the math to know its true!!!
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| User: "T Wake" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
15 Apr 2005 04:33:54 PM |
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"Nick" <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113597507.876949.153310@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I don't have to have the math to know its true!!!
I think a typo got into your post there. You wrote "know" instead of
"think."
However, if you think its true (or even crazier, "know" its true) then you
should be able to work out the mathematics that backs up your idea. If you
don't know what mathematics of general relativity are wrong how can you know
where to start criticising it?
(This still hasn't convinced me you aren't an internet chatbot....)
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| User: "Nick" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
15 Apr 2005 06:06:43 PM |
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The truth is meant to be known!!!
You boloneybot!!!
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| User: "Morituri-|-Max" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 12:19:51 AM |
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"Nick" <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113606403.619330.246770@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The truth is meant to be known!!!
You boloneybot!!!
You can't prove it's true. You're just a crackpot fundamentalist christian
wanna-be who doesn't have a life.
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| User: "Nick" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 12:37:52 AM |
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Sure I can!
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| User: "T Wake" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 03:31:04 AM |
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"Nick" <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113629872.926107.133320@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Sure I can!
(this was in reply to being told you cant prove its true)
If you can prove it why don't you?
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| User: "Morituri-|-Max" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 12:44:54 PM |
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"Nick" <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113629872.926107.133320@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Sure I can!
Well then, show the math.. in physics that's the only thing that cuts it.
Empircal evidence and the math, so put up or shut up.
And by the way I already know you can't do it.
All you're going to do is
1) String some words together.
and/or
2) Say, "I believe" or "It is so true."
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| User: "Morituri-|-Max" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 12:18:55 AM |
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"Nick" <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113597507.876949.153310@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I don't have to have the math to know its true!!!
I thought so.
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| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
15 Apr 2005 07:59:54 PM |
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In article <1113597507.876949.153310@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Nick <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't have to have the math to know its true!!!
That's called Tinkerbell physics-- "You just gotta believe!"
--
"The probability of anything happening is in inverse ratio to its
desirability." -- Gumperson's Law
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| User: "Nick" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
15 Apr 2005 08:09:32 PM |
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I'll leave the math to the professionals.
I can still know the truth. And you can't tell me otherwise Hansen!
Mitch
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| User: "Morituri-|-Max" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 12:21:23 AM |
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"Nick" <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113613772.818502.58370@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I'll leave the math to the professionals.
That statement implies there is math to be left to someone. You haven't
even shown that.
I can still know the truth. And you can't tell me otherwise Hansen!
So why do you post here? Get out of this forum and be happy. Stop
bothering people here who read this forum for PHYSICS.
Get it? This isn't the sci.anythingnickiegirl.believes forum, this is the
sci.physics forum. Your trash isn't welcome.
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| User: "T Wake" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 03:29:12 AM |
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"Nick" <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113613772.818502.58370@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I'll leave the math to the professionals.
I can still know the truth. And you can't tell me otherwise Hansen!
The first sentence should read - "I don't know any mathematics and I refuse
to learn them."
You aren't talking about a "truth" that you can explain to others or to
recreate experimentally. You are talking about a truth that stems from a
flawed belief system and minimal understanding of the actual hard work done
by others.
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| User: "Nick" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 02:38:48 PM |
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T Wake wrote:
"Nick" <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113613772.818502.58370@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I'll leave the math to the professionals.
I can still know the truth. And you can't tell me otherwise Hansen!
The first sentence should read - "I don't know any mathematics and I
refuse
to learn them."
You aren't talking about a "truth" that you can explain to others or
to
recreate experimentally. You are talking about a truth that stems
from a
flawed belief system and minimal understanding of the actual hard
work done
by others.
I don't have to know the math to know whats true.
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| User: "T Wake" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 02:51:58 PM |
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"Nick" <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113680328.596346.208460@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I don't have to know the math to know whats true.
No, you do have to know the mathematics to know what's true, you have to
know the mathematics to be able to explain it to other people.
You don't have to know the "math" to have your own (somewhat off the rails)
opinions.
The big problem you have is that some things aren't immediately obvious and
because you point blank refuse to learn the mechanics that explain things,
you have come up with your "odd" ideas. Learn the mathematics, learn the
basics then you can have a reasoned debate with people here. Failing
that......well.......At least its entertaining.....
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| User: "Morituri-|-Max" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 04:49:42 PM |
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"T Wake" <taswakeAt@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:88WdndkSoJN-8fzfRVnyiA@pipex.net...
"Nick" <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113680328.596346.208460@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I don't have to know the math to know whats true.
No, you do have to know the mathematics to know what's true, you have to
know the mathematics to be able to explain it to other people.
You don't have to know the "math" to have your own (somewhat off the
rails) opinions.
The big problem you have is that some things aren't immediately obvious
and because you point blank refuse to learn the mechanics that explain
things, you have come up with your "odd" ideas. Learn the mathematics,
learn the basics then you can have a reasoned debate with people here.
Failing that......well.......At least its entertaining.....
Yeah, Nick is like someone who doesn't know how to make paint, so he tries
to come up with ways to do so by taking rocks and trees and mixing them
together to explain the rules of how paint is chemically produced.
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| User: "T Wake" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 04:55:04 PM |
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"Morituri-|-Max" <newage@sendarico.net> wrote in message
news:WLf8e.9938$AE6.8994@tornado.texas.rr.com...
Yeah, Nick is like someone who doesn't know how to make paint, so he tries
to come up with ways to do so by taking rocks and trees and mixing them
together to explain the rules of how paint is chemically produced.
Nice. I think I am going to chuckle at that one for days. :-)
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| User: "Nick" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 03:19:26 PM |
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T Wake wrote:
"Nick" <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113680328.596346.208460@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I don't have to know the math to know whats true.
No, you do have to know the mathematics to know what's true, you have
to
know the mathematics to be able to explain it to other people.
No you don't. If they don't know the mathematics they can still
know what is being explained to them.
They can know it for themselves.
There's more to physics than math. There are principles that
everybody can understand!!!
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| User: "T Wake" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 03:23:09 PM |
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"Nick" <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113682766.501415.94720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
T Wake wrote:
"Nick" <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113680328.596346.208460@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I don't have to know the math to know whats true.
No, you do have to know the mathematics to know what's true, you have
to
know the mathematics to be able to explain it to other people.
No you don't. If they don't know the mathematics they can still
know what is being explained to them.
They can know it for themselves.
There's more to physics than math. There are principles that
everybody can understand!!!
There is "more" to physics than pure mathematics. However the mathematics
form the basis, without that grounding the higher principles often seem to
make no sense. I cant explain the fine structure constant to you without you
having a basic understanding of mathematics. And that is a pretty basic part
of physics. It may be my fault as a poor teacher, however I have yet to see
anyone teach someone else something about physics without mathematics being
involved.
The principles are there for everyone to understand. They are based on
mathematics.
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| User: "Nick" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 03:30:34 PM |
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Right.
Mathematics is a description. Its another
language.
You don't necesarily need it to understand all of physics.
For instance I know that space is curved
but I don't know that math.
Nothing stopped me!
You are nobody special because you know
math!!!
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| User: "Morituri-|-Max" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 04:57:00 PM |
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"Nick" <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113683434.475914.207760@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Right.
Mathematics is a description. Its another
language.
You don't necesarily need it to understand all of physics.
Yeah right..
For instance I know that space is curved
but I don't know that math.
How do you know that it is without knowing that math is involved?
I bet you are trusting someone else's explanation that it is curved.. but
how do you know that person didn't get it wrong without knowing the math?
Especially since you, unlike most people, are saying that you absolutely
know that persons claim to be true. Most people simply trust the source
since they, unlike you, know that math was at the root of that claim. They
understand that math was an essential part of empirically validating that
space is curved through observation and the use of math in that process.
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| User: "T Wake" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 03:36:21 PM |
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"Nick" <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113683434.475914.207760@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Right.
Mathematics is a description. Its another
language.
You don't necesarily need it to understand all of physics.
For instance I know that space is curved
but I don't know that math.
Nothing stopped me!
You are nobody special because you know
math!!!
I agree. Knowing mathematics doesn't make you "special" - however it does
allow you to express physical concepts and pass your ideas on to others. Not
knowing mathematics means you don't understand the basic physical concepts
and come up with off the wall ideas, which you can not justify, explain or
support with evidence.
How do you know space is curved? When you say you know space is curved what
do "you" mean by that?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 03:50:44 PM |
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T Wake wrote:
"Nick" <macromitch@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113683434.475914.207760@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Right.
Mathematics is a description. Its another
language.
You don't necesarily need it to understand all of physics.
For instance I know that space is curved
but I don't know that math.
Nothing stopped me!
You are nobody special because you know
math!!!
I agree. Knowing mathematics doesn't make you "special" - however it
does
allow you to express physical concepts and pass your ideas on to
others. Not
knowing mathematics means you don't understand the basic physical
concepts
and come up with off the wall ideas, which you can not justify,
explain or
support with evidence.
How do you know space is curved? When you say you know space is
curved what
do "you" mean by that?
How do you know 1 plus 1 equals 2?
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| User: "T Wake" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 03:57:20 PM |
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<macromitch@internetCDS.com> wrote in message
news:1113684644.161070.172830@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
How do you know space is curved? When you say you know space is
curved what
do "you" mean by that?
How do you know 1 plus 1 equals 2?
Well there are long and short answers. If I had got my BSc in Mathematics I
may give you the long answer but as I didn't you are safe.
In a nutshell I "know" that is the case because I can create an experiment
to prove it. For example I get a collection of discrete objects - in this
case oranges.
First I put one to the side, then I do that again. Now I count how many
oranges and find there are two oranges. I can try this experiment with other
objects and in different surrounds (altitudes etc). Better still I can
describe my experiment to others, who can try it and see if they can falsify
my claims.
The scientific method revolves around person A making a claim and describing
the experiment. Then others try to falsify the claim. If they fail to do so
(and for as long as people fail) the claim is solid.
To try and understand - imagine the statement "there is non-terran life in
the universe" - this is not scientific. Its a belief. There is no experiment
which could realistically falsify it. However the statement "there is
humanoid life on Mars" has scientific potential because you can create a
situation where you can disprove the claim. (i.e. go to mars and look).
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The No Boundary Proposal and Black Holes |
16 Apr 2005 05:03:04 PM |
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You're a nut. You can't tell me how you know
what 1 plus 1 equals.
I know how I know!!!
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