The Opposing Greenhouse Effect



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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "Gene Ledbetter"
Date: 23 Jul 2005 10:24:18 AM
Object: The Opposing Greenhouse Effect
In the simplest description of the greenhouse effect, incident solar
radiation passes through transparent glass windows and heats the floor
inside a greenhouse. The warmed floor emits infrared radiation, which
cannot pass out of the greenhouse because the glass windows are opaque
to infrared. The infrared is therefore reflected back to the floor,
where the temperature increases because the infrared cannot be radiated
away.
But in 1909, Prof. R. W. Wood, an experimental physicist at Johns
Hopkins University, reported that the greenhouse effect had no
measurable influence on the temperature inside a glass greenhouse. (R.
W. Wood, "Note on the Theory of the Greenhouse," Philosophical
Magazine, 1909, vol. 17, pp. 319-320.) Prof. Wood built two identical
greenhouse models made of black cardboard enclosures that were covered
with cotton for insulation and fitted with thermometers. A glass window
was placed on top of one enclosure, and a window made of rock salt,
which is transparent to infrared radiation, was placed on top of the
other.
When the models were allowed to heat up in the sun, their temperatures
rose gradually to about 65 C, but the model with the rock salt window
was consistently warmer than the one with the glass window, because the
glass window prevented solar infrared from entering the model. To
ensure that identical radiation entered the two models, Prof. Wood
placed an additional glass window above both model greenhouses. The two
models then performed almost identically, rising in temperature to
about 55 C.
Prof. Wood concluded that when the floor of a greenhouse is warmed by
sunlight, convection currents carry heat away from the floor and mix
with the cooler air inside the greenhouse.
While Prof. Wood was satisfied that no warming greenhouse effect had
been detected, he may have overlooked the fact that he had detected an
opposing, cooling greenhouse effect. At the beginning of the
experiment, the model with the rock salt window was consistently warmer
than the model with the glass window, because glass is just as opaque
to incident solar IR as it is to IR radiated by a greenhouse floor. It
is difficult to imagine why this possibility seems never to be
considered.
In summary, when there is a warming greenhouse effect inside a glass
greenhouse, there must also be a cooling greenhouse effect on the
outside. In Prof. Wood's experiment, the cooling effect was the only
one actually detected, and the result was a greenhouse that was cooled
rather than warmed.
The implications for the idea that the greenhouse effect warms the
Earth's atmosphere seem obvious. A greenhouse gas that is opaque to IR
radiated from the Earth's surface must also be opaque to the IR
component of sunlight. What is the net effect?
Gene Ledbetter / ledbettergene at yahoo dot com
.

User: "EinsteinHoax"

Title: Re: The Opposing Greenhouse Effect 23 Jul 2005 12:36:55 PM
"Gene Ledbetter" <ledbettergene@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1122132258.433215.22200@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

In the simplest description of the greenhouse effect, incident solar
radiation passes through transparent glass windows and heats the floor
inside a greenhouse. The warmed floor emits infrared radiation, which
cannot pass out of the greenhouse because the glass windows are opaque
to infrared. The infrared is therefore reflected back to the floor,
where the temperature increases because the infrared cannot be radiated
away.

But in 1909, Prof. R. W. Wood, an experimental physicist at Johns
Hopkins University, reported that the greenhouse effect had no
measurable influence on the temperature inside a glass greenhouse. (R.

Hmmm, I think that that experiment misses a detail.. the earth isn't
surrounded by glass windows.. or glass at all... that's the bad thing about
taking an analogy too literally.
.

User: "hanson"

Title: Re: The Opposing Greenhouse Effect 23 Jul 2005 11:00:12 AM
"Gene Ledbetter" <ledbettergene@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1122132258.433215.22200@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

In the simplest description of the greenhouse effect, incident solar
radiation passes through transparent glass windows and heats the floor
inside a greenhouse. The warmed floor emits infrared radiation, which
cannot pass out of the greenhouse because the glass windows are opaque
to infrared. The infrared is therefore reflected back to the floor, where the
temperature increases because the infrared cannot be radiated away.

[hanson]
Now, let's also hear what the highly concerned and worried
greenies (enviros, class 1 , 2 and 3) have to say about your
GHGW treatise here. ahahaha... ahahanson


[Gene Ledbetter... cont.]

But in 1909, Prof. R. W. Wood, an experimental physicist at Johns
Hopkins University, reported that the greenhouse effect had no
measurable influence on the temperature inside a glass greenhouse. (R.
W. Wood, "Note on the Theory of the Greenhouse," Philosophical
Magazine, 1909, vol. 17, pp. 319-320.) Prof. Wood built two identical
greenhouse models made of black cardboard enclosures that were covered
with cotton for insulation and fitted with thermometers. A glass window
was placed on top of one enclosure, and a window made of rock salt,
which is transparent to infrared radiation, was placed on top of the
other.

When the models were allowed to heat up in the sun, their temperatures
rose gradually to about 65 C, but the model with the rock salt window
was consistently warmer than the one with the glass window, because the
glass window prevented solar infrared from entering the model. To
ensure that identical radiation entered the two models, Prof. Wood
placed an additional glass window above both model greenhouses. The two
models then performed almost identically, rising in temperature to
about 55 C.

Prof. Wood concluded that when the floor of a greenhouse is warmed by
sunlight, convection currents carry heat away from the floor and mix
with the cooler air inside the greenhouse.

While Prof. Wood was satisfied that no warming greenhouse effect had
been detected, he may have overlooked the fact that he had detected an
opposing, cooling greenhouse effect. At the beginning of the
experiment, the model with the rock salt window was consistently warmer
than the model with the glass window, because glass is just as opaque
to incident solar IR as it is to IR radiated by a greenhouse floor. It
is difficult to imagine why this possibility seems never to be
considered.

In summary, when there is a warming greenhouse effect inside a glass
greenhouse, there must also be a cooling greenhouse effect on the
outside. In Prof. Wood's experiment, the cooling effect was the only
one actually detected, and the result was a greenhouse that was cooled
rather than warmed.

The implications for the idea that the greenhouse effect warms the
Earth's atmosphere seem obvious. A greenhouse gas that is opaque to IR
radiated from the Earth's surface must also be opaque to the IR
component of sunlight. What is the net effect?

Gene Ledbetter / ledbettergene at yahoo dot com

.

User: "pete"

Title: Re: The Opposing Greenhouse Effect 24 Jul 2005 02:48:22 AM
Gene Ledbetter wrote:

The implications for the idea that the greenhouse effect warms the
Earth's atmosphere seem obvious. A greenhouse gas that is opaque to IR
radiated from the Earth's surface must also be opaque to the IR
component of sunlight. What is the net effect?

Infrared reflection plus Compton scattering,
is what the greenhouse effect is all about,
both in greenhouses and also in the atmosphere.
You must not neglect to consider Compton scattering.
--
pete
.

User: ""

Title: Re: The Opposing Greenhouse Effect 23 Jul 2005 11:34:19 AM
Gene Ledbetter wrote:

In the simplest description of the greenhouse effect, incident solar
radiation passes through transparent glass windows and heats the floor
inside a greenhouse. The warmed floor emits infrared radiation, which
cannot pass out of the greenhouse because the glass windows are opaque
to infrared. The infrared is therefore reflected back to the floor,
where the temperature increases because the infrared cannot be radiated
away.

But in 1909, Prof. R. W. Wood, an experimental physicist at Johns
Hopkins University, reported that the greenhouse effect had no
measurable influence on the temperature inside a glass greenhouse. (R.
W. Wood, "Note on the Theory of the Greenhouse," Philosophical
Magazine, 1909, vol. 17, pp. 319-320.) Prof. Wood built two identical
greenhouse models made of black cardboard enclosures that were covered
with cotton for insulation and fitted with thermometers. A glass window
was placed on top of one enclosure, and a window made of rock salt,
which is transparent to infrared radiation, was placed on top of the
other.

When the models were allowed to heat up in the sun, their temperatures
rose gradually to about 65 C, but the model with the rock salt window
was consistently warmer than the one with the glass window, because the
glass window prevented solar infrared from entering the model. To
ensure that identical radiation entered the two models, Prof. Wood
placed an additional glass window above both model greenhouses. The two
models then performed almost identically, rising in temperature to
about 55 C.

Prof. Wood concluded that when the floor of a greenhouse is warmed by
sunlight, convection currents carry heat away from the floor and mix
with the cooler air inside the greenhouse.

While Prof. Wood was satisfied that no warming greenhouse effect had
been detected, he may have overlooked the fact that he had detected an
opposing, cooling greenhouse effect. At the beginning of the
experiment, the model with the rock salt window was consistently warmer
than the model with the glass window, because glass is just as opaque
to incident solar IR as it is to IR radiated by a greenhouse floor. It
is difficult to imagine why this possibility seems never to be
considered.

In summary, when there is a warming greenhouse effect inside a glass
greenhouse, there must also be a cooling greenhouse effect on the
outside. In Prof. Wood's experiment, the cooling effect was the only
one actually detected, and the result was a greenhouse that was cooled
rather than warmed.

The implications for the idea that the greenhouse effect warms the
Earth's atmosphere seem obvious. A greenhouse gas that is opaque to IR
radiated from the Earth's surface must also be opaque to the IR
component of sunlight. What is the net effect?

Gene Ledbetter / ledbettergene at yahoo dot com

Gene--
I agree--but in your discussion you forgot the "show me the money" part
in your analysis.
On a fellowship tour many years ago at a Canadian university a Dept
head told me braggingly, that he could prove anything--given the proper
funding of course.
I suspect if there was "no money" in "green house" discussions--there
would be no discussions. This does not close the door on gobal warming
though--but the idea that an insignificant ant like man can alter the
earths thermal balance is silly.
People are free to drive a Pris if they wish or even pedal their
bikes--for me though, a SUV works just fine.
Tut
.


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